It's the fault of the parents.
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It's the fault of the parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
I am saying that the way African Americans govern themselves in the US - block voting, single party adherence, rampant corruption and mismanagement, poor leadership, lack of accountability, etc. - is just as much of a factor in Detroit's decline as White Flight and the fall of auto manufacturing. Detroit is a particularly stunning example, but metros with majority black populations and black leadership have been suffering for years. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.
And please find me a rural white community that had even a tenth of the resources available that Detroit has squandered over the years. The auto decline started in the 70's; it wasn't as if the current situation suddenly occurred. Literally billions upon billions of dollars have been dumped into Detroit at the state and federal level for reinvestment, all to disappear down the rabbit hole. Compare that to, say, Indianapolis, which took steps long ago to ween itself off of auto manufacturing, as any competent city administration would have.
Throwing labels around is never conducive to honest conversation. You have acknowledged many, many times on this forum that the black experience in America differs significantly from that of the white (such as the post preceding this one). Why would that different experience not translate to their abilities at self governance on a macro level? Is it because the connotations attached to my acknowledgement of those different circumstances are not quite as sympathetic as when you highlight them?
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot claim on the one hand that African Americans are poor rubes with no ability to understand changing economic conditions, as you did, and then whinge with righteous indignation when I suggest that maybe such people aren't the best at making informed decisions in their best interest. :shrug:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
When the majority voting-block is made up of one community and the educated are a totally different community, you are headed for problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
I'm not sure that Panzer is saying that Blacks are inherently incapable of governing, more that the black population in Detroit are poor and do not produce competent and well-educated administrators.
It's a catch 22 - either let the locals run things into the ground or bring in outside administration with no local connections and no sympathies.
Neither works.
You have the same problem with outside educators - bring in teachers from outside to staff Detroit schools and they'll become a class apart that neither the children nor their parents will trust.
It's not a biological issue - it's a cultural one.Part of the issue is the attempt to ape the Northern-European model of society, to a greater or lesser degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
It most definitely is a "race" issue, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
In the UK Afro-Caribbean boys are acknowledged as doing worse than all other groups because they see academic education as a "white man's" game. Their culture actively disengages them from society at large, which is why many of them turn to crime - they see no reason to follow "white" laws.
You have the same problem in the US but worse because of the much sharper association with slavery.
There's nothing you and I can do, because we're white, and any black man who tries to help young black men is invariably labeled a racial traitor.
Look up what Black Rights groups said when Paul Simon released Graceland - they said he shouldn't work with SA musicians because there was a moratorium on cultural export from SA, so even black SA's were personae non gratia. Then the same rights groups claim Simon can't understand these musicians, because he's white, but these Americans blacks (not musicians) can, because they're both black.
Of course, nobody told the American "blacks" that the SA blacks wouldn't see them as "black" at all.
As much as I love PJs bellicose style, and as much as I love to blame black people for bad things, I can't lay all of this at their feet.
Let us not forget the white unions whom refused to plan for the future or ever give an inch.
Certainly, there is this deep sense of unfairness and mistrust that black people as a group seem to have toward the power structure in this country. Not unfounded feelings by any means but not something that can't be bridged. Unfortunately these real and completely understanding feelings are hijacked by populist demagogues that line their own pockets. When you feel like there is no hope, you vote for the man who promises much. These men tend to be the ones who burn things down the quickest.
Just look at Detriots revolving door of mayors and council canidates. ALL of them promised to FIX the police and FIX the poverty and KEEP the jobs. They were either outright lying or ran headfirst into their own stunning incompetence. Most of the time both.
I know white flight is a whipping boy, but I would like to point out that these god fearing white Protestants didn't set out in the wilderness with their coonskins and civilization building genes. They took the newly minted interstate, cut themselves from the costs of the cities, and maintained the benefits. Jobs, entertainment, consumption, culture, all these things still were in the city. In 2013 some of these things may have moved to the suburbs, but in the 50s they were very much in the city. It should come as no surprise that cities that grew later (ie Sunbelt towns) all tended to annex their new suburbs.
Atlanta Ga has seen amazing growth since black leadership has taken over. Buffalo New York continues to decay with white people at the helm .
You may have some grounds to criticize modern black culture and cultural views but not black people.
One party policies and one party rule may have contributed to Detroit’s decline. Political incompetence too, perhaps. But black people are not the problem. I have never met a black person that was any stupider than anyone else. In fact, most I have met seem to have more common sense than the vast majority of most other groups. But prevailing views in the black community at large could be an issue.
At roughly the same time we ended the Jim Crow laws we also instituted policies that began the destruction of the black family and a major exodus of blacks from rural areas to cities.
The black integration into schools grew out a genuine desire for equal education for children and equal opportunities for them.
With the end of Jim Crow there was a degree of black backlash at the society that had kept them in poverty but the breakup of black families resulted in a dysfunctional culture where white education was also seen as undesirable and to be seen as oppressive. A society that previously placed high value on education was now one that rejected it. Coming at the same time were the massive government programs in welfare and housing which gave poor blacks a feeling of entitlement for past wrongs and a wholesale shift from Republican allegiance to Democrats believing that they had their best interests at heart.
This was a time of rejection of old ideas and a young generation who rejected the ideas and ideals of their fathers, not just black but all the boomers thought they knew better. Everyone of them was angry and someone needed to pay. This was also the last black generation to come from primarily two parent families. Much of that anger became engendered into black culture and continue to this day.
An example of this, though not very clear to most, was the vilification of Nathan Bedford Forrest.
Forrest was a slave dealer, slave owner, Confederate General, and first leader of the Ku-Klux-Clan. I know I have a C there and not a k but that is how it was known when he headed it.
He was also a very admired figure in the black community of Memphis and the surrounding areas. His birthday was a holiday (13 July), and a day to remember all the things he did to promote equal rights for blacks. Something most people don’t know about. They accepted his explanation that he saw the Clan as a means to re-enfranchise Confederate soldiers and he disbanded the organization at the end of the 1860s. He held the black men who served with him in high honor and he essentially bankrupt himself working for equal employment rights and pay for blacks and was open about his feelings until the end of his life. The only documented case of him beating a black man was not for being uppity or politics but for being an unrepentant wife beater.
For these last things he was honored and seen as a hero by the black community until the death of MLK. After that point, he was seen for what he had been before the Civil War and needed to be hated as an evil white man.
So, now the park that used to host large crowds of black families pick nicking or having community Barbecues with huge masses of bouquets of flowers laid on his grave to remember him, is renamed because of the outrage of the black community that a Confederate slave dealer and kkk chief would have his name on anything.
I find it ironic that they not only abandoned the White man’s schools as not being worth the effort to learn, but the knowledge and values of their own fathers and forefathers.
In the 1960s low black test scores were seen as proof of their inferiority but as single parent families became more prevalent, and even a norm in society all scores seemed to take a dip. If blacks scores are lower today it is the way they view education and not mental limitations that are at fault. No amount of money thrown into schools will make a difference in attitudes at home.
You're too wedded to the idea that the American political system is at fault institutionally - you need to think more about the social experiences that have shaped that system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Why do Blacks tend to vote Democrat - doesn't make a whole lot of sense, really.
Yeah I'm having trouble with this as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Is Detroit literally bankrupt?
The City filed bankruptcy under Chapter 9. Municipality Bankruptcy.
It's because we live in First World countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Yeah, doing a little reading over the weekend, looks like filing for bankruptcy was the only way to re-negotiate their bonds. Apparently Detroit already had some sort of exemption from the weird state law (which says you cannot re-negotiate a pension) for re-negotiating their pension obligations. But the bondholders weren't willing to take a haircut. Hence the bankruptcy.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I'd also like to point out that according to every respectable military figure ever, the most difficult maneuver to pull off is a fighting retreat. Detroit tried and failed. Look at the numbers:
"In 1950 there were 1.85 million people in Detroit. In 1970, it was 1.5 million. In 1990, it was a million flat. By 2010, it was down to 710,000. When your city is shrinking like that, you end up with a tax base that's inadequate to maintain the fixed infrastructure or to pay off pension costs that were incurred in more prosperous times."
Detroit is not the only city in Michigan or in the US to file for bankruptcy (just the most visible, at the moment):
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/mu...-defaults.html
Or the only Michigan city in dire financial straits:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ontiac-detroit
And for those of you who think the suburbs here are much better off financially should look into the situations of Lincoln Park and Allen Park...one has already disbanded its' full-time fire department and the other is considering it. Both are beset by financial difficulties that also has them closing schools and considering bankruptcy.
A previous poster noted that Michigan is basically a one-trick pony, the auto industry, and there-in lies a huge reason for Detroit's and Michigan's problems as a whole. When the US auto industry gets decimated by international competition, and moves plants (and thereby jobs) out-of-state, the trickle-down effect on the local economy (steel, chemical, plastics, etc) is fatal.
And for those who think that the entire city of Detroit is one huge war-zone...you need to spend some time with Google Maps. I just bought a home on the east side (East English Village), in a predominantly black neighborhood, and I can tell you that this neighborhood is as well maintained as any Downriver neighborhood I have seen or the one I currently live in.
Using race as the scapegoat for ALL of Detroit's problems is short-sighted and out of touch with reality.
Last year when I was bussed to Belle Isle for the Indy Race, the neighborhoods we drove through looked very war-zony to me: skeletons of abandoned buildings, entire neighborhoods boarded up, parking lots fenced in with barbed wire, brrr... Let's just say I'm glad I live in the burbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Oh, I'm sure there are well maintained neighborhoods beside the Grosse Point, but they are the exception, not the rule.Quote:
I just bought a home on the east side (East Indian Village), in a predominantly black neighborhood, and I can tell you that this neighborhood is as well maintained as any Downriver neighborhood I have seen or the one I currently live in.
I would differ with that, based on the two months I just spent driving through Detroit neighborhoods while looking at homes. Yes, there certainly are areas that could be used as sets for any of the new post-apocalypse shows now on TV (is there any major metro area in the world that doesn't have areas like this?), but there are many where folks care about their homes and their neighborhood.Quote:
Oh, I'm sure there are well maintained neighborhoods beside the Grosse Point, but they are the exception, not the rule.
Just sayin', Detroit is NOT an example of a thriving successful city. It's anything but. One can find a few healthy grains of wheat in that pile of manure, but it's still mostly manure.
....and manure makes great fertilizer when planted with new seeds:bounce:
And just out of curiosity, why don't any of these cities get a topic?
http://alizul2.blogspot.de/2012/11/1...-in-world.html
They are lumped together here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...?144866-1-in-7 1 in 7 down the page some where.
I posted that same link a couple of days ago. But they actually refer to neighborhoods rather than the whole city.
I know...I read through the topic...that's where I copied your link from~;)
My point is...Detroit because it's easy to rant about unions, racism, etc., and because Detroit's bankruptcy is headline news, at the moment.
But most of the cities in that list look to me to be much, much worse:shrug:
Because the republicans are worse, and the american first past the post voting system means the two main parties are the only show in town.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
And how does that differ from a normal bankruptcy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
I'm no stranger to mismanaged towns, I've lived most of my life in such a town. What happens here is that they're put on the finance departmentQuote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
:daisy:-list, meaning that they will oversee business until things are in balance again. But a bankruptcy? Absurd.
Two Republican Black Secretaries of State - one Democrat Black President. Republicans are, historically, more equal-rights than Dems - Dems just offer poor people more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
There's no racial element to the Republican party any more, except that they get vilified.
That sounds like party line hyperbole. Statements like that need something to show they are true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Blacks didn’t leave the Republican party over racism and the KKK was part of the Democratic power base for about 60 or 70 years.
You need to support those statement, not just toss them out as fact.
Daddy does this mean we don't get Christmas?
Hey, Detroit and Donald Trump finally have something in common!
I really hope the courts respect Mr Detroit. This one time I was in court for a misdemeanor public urination charge, and a clerk came out and started calling out names for bankruptcy filings and I was thinking "man that's embarrassing to have your name called out like that for bankruptcy they should respect their privacy" but then I remembered that it was my tax dollars that would be buying their foodstamps and obamaphone so then I stopped feeling bad, anyway, my point is that when Detroit goes to court I really hope he gets some privacy and the clerk doesn't come out and yell "Detroit Bankruptcy" man that would be embarrassing.
I am as skeptical of political motives for doing anything as anyone can be but to me the Republicans glommed onto this more as a law and order issue than a racial one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Now, that doesn’t mean that the Democrats wouldn’t find it politically expedient to call it proof of racism.
You are going to have to show me the demographics on this huge white racist vote. Is this something you see as a defacto white southern vote? Do you just think being southern makes you a racist?
In the army you get exposed to a lot of young testosterone pumped men that think killing thing, and people, and destroying stuff is really cool. They don’t do a lot of heavy thinking, but most grow out of it. Their allegiance to the Republican party is because, usually, the Republicans want to spend more on their toys than the Democrats do.
In the army or any other large group of people, individuals tend to gravitate to people they have more in common with. You see black groups, white groups, Hispanic groups, and a few mixed groups, but they are more the exception. Most of these guy are actually young and insecure and tend to be xenophobic.
Did you run into many racist officers and NCOs, what ever their color?
Well, two problems here: (1) Calling anyone racist is handing them a loaded weapon. Hell, I could tell the Grand Dragon of the KKK that he's a racist dirtbag, and he could very easily do the same maneuver that the Republicans have perfected over the last ten years, namely: "I am not a racist, I just have pride in my culture; YOU are the racist for saying I might be racist, you dirty self-hating white person." Which is pretty much the reflexive response these days.
(2) Difficult to get reliable statistics and polling on attitudes that subjects are likely to deny.
But to sidle in with Gelatinous Cube's anecdotal evidence, all of the white people I know who are, shall we say, subject to identity politics? Every single one of them is a Republican. The ones who use derogatory terms for non-whites? All Republicans. The folks who give credence to the Birther nonsense (which has a racial subtext you'd have to be blind and stupid to miss)? Republicans.
But an interesting thing has been happening: My really hard-core rightwing friends have been shifting their hate away from the darkies and the browns lately. If you talk to them, or read their FB posts, it's much more generalized now, about the Communist-Socialist Democrat America-Hating Liberal Traitors. Their public language is increasingly strident, increasingly angry, and (most interesting) increasingly broad. They hate RINOs, they hate Democrats, they hate rich liberals (limousine liberals), they hate middle-class liberals (kool aid drinkers), and they hate all poors (welfare mamas, leeches, parasites, etc.).
And they hate all forms of compromise, because any compromise is a betrayal of principles. Besides, if everyone you're opposed to is basically Satan, how can you compromise without handing Satan a win? You can't.
If you want some empirical data to back this up (and when isn't that welcome?), I'd say look at the birther polls, since that's a question a genuine racist will answer honestly. (I.E., "No way am I racist ... but that Obama was probably born in Kenya ... despite a total lack of evidence for this hypothesis ...") If we look at where the birthers are, the data completely supports GC's and my contention, that most of the racists we know personally are wearing the R hat, not the D hat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
A whopping 64 percent of Republicans think it’s “probably true” that President Obama is hiding important information about his background and early life, including his possible birthplace, according to a new nationwide survey of registered voters from Fairleigh Dickinson University’s PublicMind project examining Americans’ belief in political conspiracy theories. [...]
Moreover, researchers noted: “Generally, the more people know about current events, the less likely they are to believe in conspiracy theories — but not among Republicans, where more knowledge leads to greater belief in political conspiracies.”
“There are several possible explanations for this,” said Fairleigh Dickinson political scientist Dan Cassino, who helped conduct the poll. “It could be that more conspiracy-minded Republicans seek out more information, or that the information some Republicans seek out just tends to reinforce these myths.”
If building a fence is racist, then we have a lot more racists in this country than I ever thought. Tear down those fences, Mr Obama!
@Lemur
Obviously you are referencing white racist as all being Republican. I really don’t know, but throwing out the term usually taints everyone. I know of a few Democrat politicians that were formerly of the KKK. But of course they must have reformed. And no I don’t mean the late Robert Byrd. These guys were local and state.
As for face book, the political verbiage there is of the lowest order. It is right up there with “Give me a million likes for being a dufus“.
Birthers! What ever, they are right along side, the Bush= skull and bones= illuminati people. Has anyone done a study on them? Or on the Cheney is the devil bunch?
I am sure there are more than enough political wing nuts to go around.
These people are just like those who watch the evening news. They don’t do it to become informed, they do it to seek validation of their ideas. There is just not much you can trust coming over TV News.
On conspiracy in general, I don’t mind people looking. Conspiracies have existed and may again form time to time. One worked to involve us in WWI and a second was on its way to dragging us into WWII before the Japanese finally attacked. One could even argue that the “Weapons of Mass Destruction” was a conspiracy. Or that any government cover-up fit’s the definition, or any cover-up for that matter.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy
Conspiracy: 5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.
But when we use the synonyms, like: collusion, plot, intrigue, cabal, or scheme, it makes it all better.
I'm pretty careful to avoid saying "all" in reference to the population at large, because absolutes tend to self-fulfilling fallacies. But in my personal experience, all of the white people I know who are into/subject to identity politics have been either Republican or Libertarian. By the same token (pun intended), the few Hate Whitey black people I've known personally have been either nominal Democrats or (more commonly) apolitical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
If you're going to reference Robert Byrd, why not do so by name? Do you not know American history? The Dems were the party of the South and segregation until the late 1960s. Then there was a realignment. Please do a little reading on the Southern Strategy. Your take on the parties is approximately half a century out of date. Did it ever occur to you to wonder why, for example, David Duke chose to run for and serve elected office as a Republican?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Read the survey I linked. They polled for four major conspiracy theories. Yes, there were nutjobs on the left who believed that George W. orchestrated the 9/11 attacks, and other such nonsense. But nothing—nothing—came close to the percentages of Republicans who gave credence to Birtherism. Different order of magnitude. I wonder why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
The birther bit is easy to explain. Though the Obama staff didn’t help things much.
It is just like any political nugget. You have those who want to believe and will except any or even no explanation, and you have those who don’t want to believe and no explanation will be sufficient.
The rumor started and no evidence was immediately published giving the appearance of something wrong. Past that point nothing was going to matter anyway. Facts no longer matter.
Think of trying to convince rvg that pot is no a danger to the world. Who was interested in Bush’s military service record and what became of that?
100% incorrect. State of Hawaii (with a Republican governor) confirmed birth and citizenship immediately, and the BC was released to the public in June of 2008. At that point anyone not motivated by insanity, blind partisanship, or racism, should have been done with the subject. Had the candidate been white, that would have probably been the end of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Oh hell, read for yourself.
The survey I linked was from 2012, long after any sane person should have been done with the issue. I think it's an inexact but useful proxy for identity politics.
Uh... Did an USAnian city just go bankrupt?
This might be the wrong thread for this... but...
Thinking that you can build a physical fence across the entire border that would actually keep people out is idiotic. However, there are certain places where fence sections have proved effective. In other locations, sensors, drones, or good old fashioned patrols could work.
I believe that any way you look at it, the US has the right and duty to have control of its borders. From an immigration perspective, you have people all over the world that would love to be able to live and work in the US. Giving illegal immigrants a pass is fundamentally unfair to the would-be immigrants who respect our laws and go thru the proper channels. In the case of Mexico, it also gives a very corrupt & incompetent government a safety valve that allows it to continue being corrupt and incompetent.
Then there are the sovereignty and national security issues....
What's this got to do with Detroit?
So no fence on the southern border? Worked for the Chinese. Until the Japanese invaded. Maybe we could fence in Detroit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
This argument is droning on and becoming offensive. Not all issues are black and white.:laugh4:
How dare you say that about Canadians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Despite what you may think with your liberal sensibilities, I have it on good sourcing that the southern border fence with Mexico is not about keeping Mexicans out, but about keeping Americans from escaping. So, if the fence is racist, it is racist against Americans. Facts.
They do have a rodent as their national symbol...
Rabbit is it rodents that are the problem or is it you don't like beaver?Quote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
Well, if it walks like a rat... :clown:
While racial tensions certainly exacerbated an already bad situation, Detroit's problems went far beyond that and started long before race became an issue. The decisions made by corporate execs and government officials alike had much more to do with Detroit's economic decline. That, and the general trend across the Midwestern factory belt of moving from a producing environment to a consumer environment.Quote:
This has to do with detroit because we're now discussing how the parties manipulate racial tensions.
I think it is fair to blame city government for the bankruptcy. It is machine politics and a one party system. Since they have no political opposition the city blames it problems on Outsider interference.
Detroit is one of the few cities with a full time legislative body. Most city councils are part time affairs.
It does not make them the only cause of the tragedy of course. But if you want to be in charge and expect credit for what goes right, you also have to take the hit when it goes bad.
They'll be getting the shaft- there's no way around it. But do you think the people of the city shoulder some of the blame for voting the morons who screwed the place up back in time and time again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
The public service unions would scream and squawk every time they weren't going to get their unsustainable raises and pension increases. And now it's crashing down all around them. There's plenty of blame to go around for it.
I'm in a state-wide pension program... and I'm uneasy about even that. If I were a part of a municipal or county level pension program, I'd pretty much write it off. If you manage to get some of it- great. But don't plan on having it.
Well, at least they can still come up with the nearly half a billion taxpayer dollars to build a hockey arena. It's all about priorities, right?
Now consider all of the other 31 cities that host an NHL team and......Quote:
Andrew Zimbalist, a Smith College economics professor and a sports business expert, said the Red Wings are one of the few profitable teams in the National Hockey League, and there is no chance they would want to leave Detroit, even for the suburbs.
....there's a clue to the hockey fever in this town. In a city that's filing for bankruptcy, and tickets at the "Joe" going for $50 to $100 a pop for the 'cheap' seats, World Cup soccer fans have nothing on Red Wing fans.....