Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Living expenses are our prime expense. It trumps everything else and takes a huge chunk out of your income. Immigrants, and every single other person, bases their choice of living mainly on what can be afforded. It's not an influx of immigrants causing a drop in property values, it's always a low property value causing an influx of immigrants. The common bitching by people claiming their house devalued is always caused by those people either forgetting how it used to be or simply cannot accept that they used to be or are poor themselves.

And National Socialism and other totalitarian and undemocratic forces have always had an appeal to a large segment of the poor. It's no surprise that the greek poor turn to the same. Also worth considering is that Greece is a very recent democracy, and the old dictator still has an appeal. In addition to that, their war of independence, resulting in an absolute monarchy, is utterly romanticized. I had a look through the War of Independence unit of a greek international school last week, and it would've put Soviet education on ww2 to shame. And that was an international IB school, I shudder to think how they're portrayed in public schools.

Finally, I would like to see some actual stats on Golden Dawn voting. The trend for the rest of Europe is the complete opposite - the more immigrants there are in an area, the more left-wing the native population will be, with right-wing parties having their base in rural hillbillyland. (and if you ask any marxist why he went to the left, I can almost guarantee it was because of anti-racism)

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I too was perplexed here. PJ seemed to suggest that the GD groups greatest support was among poor immigrant enclaves. That's counter intuitive. Unless, of course, the whole line was sarcasm in which case I missed it.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

How about the fact that there is virtually no "welfare immigration" in Greece, as Greece doesn't have any money anyway and the immigrants targeted by the Golden Dawn are illegals who wouldn't be entitled to anything anyway?

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Hi HoreTore -

Please educate yourself on the subject before issuing lectures on it. First, illegal immigrants in Greece are eligible for government assistance. Of course, those familiar with the situation understand that these locusts are simply using Greece as a gateway to Western Europe. That is why they continue to come despite the country's dire situation. The could care less about Greece or the strain they are putting on its citizens; it's just a cheap hostel to them.

This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants romanticized in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.

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Originally Posted by Pap

I do not believe that a pile of money forms a moral high ground.

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I'm not sure you could stuff another word in my mouth in this thread if you tried.

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Originally Posted by Seamus

I too was perplexed here. PJ seemed to suggest that the GD groups greatest support was among poor immigrant enclaves. That's counter intuitive. Unless, of course, the whole line was sarcasm in which case I missed it.

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Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.

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*A black man relating a humorous anecdote from his Jewish co-worker to his friends
*A Hispanic police officer on her beat as a Hasid crosses the street with his two small children, in a boulevard crowded with "black" faces
*Jewish groups spending Christmas day in Chinese restaurants, and Chinese groups spending Christmas day out eating Kosher
*Italian contractors waiting for their appointment with a South-Russian dentist as the Mexican receptionist chats with the Filipino mailman
*Unescorted burqa-clad women with veils upturned walking the streets of Lower Manhattan wearing high-heel shoes and carrying full bags from boutique stores
*Greeks, African-Americans, Ukrainians, Indians, Japanese, Romanians, Dominicans, Chinese, Bangladeshis, Koreans, Egyptians, Cambodians, Germans, and so-on mingling in public-school classrooms

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Did you just finish watching Crash?

I find myself agreeing with PJ

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Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.

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It's like this everywhere though.

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Originally Posted by Panzerjaeger

Surging crime, deteriorating property values, imported ethnic strife, ghettoization of formerly established areas, and reactionary anti-immigrant violence are just a few of the results of open door immigration. You can stick your head in the sand and sing Kumbaya all you like, but it will not change the reality of the situation.

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If you would read your own article, and other sources on the Greek situation, you would see that the problems come mostly from the native Greeks and immigrants from their neighboring Balkan states. Immigrants from Asia are usually illegal immigrants, and/or are merely using Greece as a transit point into Western Europe. So stow your baseless crud about "3rd-World" immigrants overrunning Greece to live off welfare. I mean, who would even go to Greece specifically for welfare tourism? They'd be better off wherever they started.

Separate from the matter of immigration into Western Europe, it's pretty clear that Asian migrants in Greece are not an undue burden other than in the sense that the whole country is an economic shambles.

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Please educate yourself on the subject before issuing lectures on it. First, illegal immigrants in Greece are eligible for government assistance. Of course, those familiar with the situation understand that these locusts are simply using Greece as a gateway to Western Europe. That is why they continue to come despite the country's dire situation. The could care less about Greece or the strain they are putting on its citizens; it's just a cheap hostel to them.

This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants glorified in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.

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So you blame migrants - for being migrants? Seriously?

They are not "bringing" crime with them, they are merely amplifying the existing situation. Even if there were no Asian migrants in Greece whatsoever, violent crime and ethnic conflict would still be sky-high in Greece; I'm sure the Golden Dawn would be placing proportionally much more blame on Albanians in Greece.

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Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.

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And it doesn't seem to you to be a result of the general Depression in Greece? Of course when the economy is collapsing people look for scapegoats - that doesn't mean the immigrants are somehow destroying communities by their villainous natures. In this state of affairs, even native Greeks moving from one neighborhood to another would create massive frictions - as it does.

It's amazing how you affirm a narrative so oafish in its conception, that people seeking job opportunities are somehow villains who by their very presence rightfully invite retribution from 'put-upon' natives, that they are responsible for increased crime when the increased crime is mostly perpetrated by natives against them...

Here's what a genuinely-rational position with respect to Greece might look like: Greece is still in the middle of an ongoing economic catastrophe, and accordingly living standards and social cohesion have declined, while crime has spiked. Given this situation, migrants moving through Greece to other parts of the EU are further straining the state's limited resources, and contributing to rising xenophobia and violence. In addition to potentially being undesirable in Western Europe for their being undocumented, Asian migrants in Greece are not currently contributing much to the tottering economy not least due to lack of opportunities and labor demand, and furthermore are potentially reducing their overall long-term economic prospects and increasing their risk of suffering interpersonal violence by residing in Greece for any period of time. For the duration of the crisis at least, Greece should set a moratorium on all documented visits to or stays in Greece longer than, say, a month, while raising the priority of border security in order to reduce the number of undocumented visitors, migrants, and immigrants, to which end the EU should provide logistical support. All existing migrants who wish to move on from Greece should be expedited on their journey; those who intend to become fully-naturalized citizens and live permanently in Greece should be shielded from local resentment and helped to integrate into the Greek community.

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I have little interest in addressing made up anecdotes and personal attacks. The fact that you apparently have the means to spend the majority of your day in front of a computer playing games and/or writing essay length posts on a gaming forum makes it pretty clear that you are not living in the situation being discussed, so please do not imply otherwise.

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Quite ironic.

I live in Queens County, buddy - get some perspective.

'They are not "bringing" crime with them, they are merely amplifying the existing situation.'

What is the existing situation in the Netherlands than?

Majority of the prison-population wasn't born here, the good part of the rest was born here but have an immigrant background.

You have fewer than 15,000 prisoners, I believe.

And what does that have to do with Greece?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

You have fewer than 15,000 prisoners, I believe.

And what does that have to do with Greece?

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It has to do with amplying the situation. What situation is being amplified. Fact:immigrants bring crime.

The absolute majority of Maroccan youth has a criminal record, so how about that then.

You've had about 50K Moroccan immigrants in the past 15 years, so I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

You've had about 50K Moroccan immigrants in the past 15 years, so I doubt it.

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They get children no? But says something n'est pas. It's the same in Belgium, France, Sweden, etc. You can doubt it all you want. Doesn't change the facts.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants romanticized in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.

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You could've been more clear about what kind of people you're talking about, basically only the illegal immigrants who are also up to no good.
It's still delusional to think that Europeans are somehow in favor of them or okay with them. Police here tell us openly that there are roaming bands of criminals from Eastern Europe that break into peoples' apartements and they are being hunted and prosecuted and I haven't heard a single lefty say that they should be left alone. So what's all this about then? I don't go around telling people how Republicans love Mexican drug cartels because they help them play war and shoot their guns or something equally silly.

As for immigration issues, that goes both ways since xenophobic natives make that really hard for the immigrants if they shut them out of "normal" life in a country as it often happens.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Hi HoreTore -

Please educate yourself on the subject before issuing lectures on it.

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I would suggest you do the same, starting with learning the difference between an asylum applicant and an illegal immigrant.

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Originally Posted by Husar

You could've been more clear about what kind of people you're talking about, basically only the illegal immigrants who are also up to no good.
It's still delusional to think that Europeans are somehow in favor of them or okay with them. Police here tell us openly that there are roaming bands of criminals from Eastern Europe that break into peoples' apartements and they are being hunted and prosecuted and I haven't heard a single lefty say that they should be left alone.

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Political correctness has a hierarchy, wait untill the police says that it are mostly Roma's who steal everything they can carry and lefties will go for your eyes.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Political correctness has a hierarchy, wait untill the police says that it are mostly Roma's who steal everything they can carry and lefties will go for your eyes.

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That's pretty much what they say and I haven't heard any lefties disagree. In fact there are a whole lot of people who say the Roma steal a lot. Apparently they used false/stolen credit cards to buy cigarettes at my previous workplace. One day my boss suddenly had a lot of paper saying all the transactions were fraudulent.

I have no problem with sending the heavily criminal immigrants back, I only have a problem when people just want to send all immigrants back because of some bad apples.

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Originally Posted by Husar

That's pretty much what they say and I haven't heard any lefties disagree. In fact there are a whole lot of people who say the Roma steal a lot. Apparently they used false/stolen credit cards to buy cigarettes at my previous workplace. One day my boss suddenly had a lot of paper saying all the transactions were fraudulent.

I have no problem with sending the heavily criminal immigrants back, I only have a problem when people just want to send all immigrants back because of some bad apples.

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Maybe we can send those who say that with them. But if the police would warn for Roma's specifically, what is entirely justified, the machine kicks into gear, A CAUSE, A CAUSE, my sanity for a cause (instant Shakespear syndrome, rewritten). People shouldn't look away from obvious problems, almost all Roma's come here to steal & beg and it's organised. We aren't as sensitive about just saying as it is, but in (naturally) Sweden there is outrage because the police keeps a list of Roma's. Outrage! How dare they! It's not xenophobia it's just acknowledging a problem. Ever hear someone complaining about Asians or Hindi?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Maybe we can send those who say that with them. But if the police would warn for Roma's specifically, what is entirely justified, the machine kicks into gear, A CAUSE, A CAUSE, my sanity for a cause (instant Shakespear syndrome, rewritten). People shouldn't look away from obvious problems, almost all Roma's come here to steal & beg and it's organised. We aren't as sensitive about just saying as it is, but in (naturally) Sweden there is outrage because the police keeps a list of Roma's. Outrage! How dare they! It's not xenophobia it's just acknowledging a problem. Ever hear someone complaining about Asians or Hindi?

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Asians are too good at maths and Hindi all smell. ~;)

But seriously, I think the difference is that the Roma have no country of their own and are not welcome in the countries they live in. So for generations upon genrations they have learned to take what they can get to survive and not to respect the law of the land because the law of the land does not respect them (that's my best guess anyway). That doesn't make their criminal activities okay but shuffling them around between countries is not a solution either.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Asians are too good at maths and Hindi all smell. ~;)

But seriously, I think the difference is that the Roma have no country of their own and are not welcome in the countries they live in. So for generations upon genrations they have learned to take what they can get to survive and not to respect the law of the land because the law of the land does not respect them (that's my best guess anyway). That doesn't make their criminal activities okay but shuffling them around between countries is not a solution either.

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Congratulations it's an idiot! ;)

It's organised mia muca, these beggars are picked up with a fat Mercedes when their shift is over, these sick kids are drugged up to their eyeballs, these missing limbs are amputated. Do you know how their overlords live in eastern-europe, very very nice

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Congratulations it's an idiot! ;)

It's organised mia muca, these beggars are picked up with a fat Mercedes when their shift is over, these sick kids are drugged up to their eyeballs, these limbs are amputeted. Do you know how their overlords live in eastern-europe, very very nice

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Yeah, screw drugs, there's more money in change!!

Honestly people....

I'm not sure if its worth bothering with facts here, but anyway: "the overlord" is the local moneylender, who takes a rather high interest since he's not an official bankier.

Also, Balts and Poles have always faetured in the theft-statistic, it's hardly a Roma-only problem(who tend to do more shoplifting stuff, while the balts break into cabins).

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Congratulations it's an idiot! ;)

It's organised mia muca, these beggars are picked up with a fat Mercedes when their shift is over, these sick kids are drugged up to their eyeballs, these limbs are amputeted. Do you know how their overlords live in eastern-europe, very very nice

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Congratulations, it's a Nazi! ;)

They want to genocide everybody without blue eyes and blonde hair, they're dangerous, already murdered a lot of people and their bosses are vicious criminals who live a very good life, why don't you know that?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yeah, screw drugs, there's more money in change!!

Honestly people....

I'm not sure if its worth bothering with facts here, but anyway: "the overlord" is the local moneylender, who takes a rather high interest since he's not an official bankier.

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But of course Horrie http://kukoncik.com/bizarre/new-arch...y-castles.html

I will never accuse them of having any taste though gypsy castles < google

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Originally Posted by Fragony

But of course Horrie http://kukoncik.com/bizarre/new-arch...y-castles.html

I will never accuse them of having any taste though gypsy castles < google

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Are you under the impression that nobody is aware that there are people with money in areas without money....? What's next, photos of a black man in harlem with bling?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Are you under the impression that nobody is aware that there are people with money in areas without money....? What's next, photos of a black man in harlem with bling?

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lol Horrie, maybe Edyzmedieval can fill you in he's from romania. Those are headquarters of criminal gangs. They even pimp it, yo

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Originally Posted by Fragony

lol Horrie, maybe Edyzmedieval can fill you in he's from romania. Those are headquarters of criminal gangs. They even pimp it, yo

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Again, how is this supposed to surprise anyone?

Where do you think the black guy in harlem got his three tons of bling from anyway? Trading stocks at wall street?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Again, how is this supposed to surprise anyone?

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Twice needs a first to exist, 'again' 'what' exactly

I know this maybe a revolutionary concept, but there is a difference between Legal and Illegal immigration.

Legal immigration usually consists of stringent measures ensuring eligibility for working in the nation and possessing the funds able to house, food and cloth yourself, so you do not depend on the state, you usually pay more tax/social security ontop and have limited benefits. Panzer's family would have been legal immigrants to the USA. Apart from some strains of hyper-nationalism, usually used by immigrants/first-generation to make themselves more-native than natives as they feel they have to, to fit in, I am sure he is a well adjusted individual and helps his community just like the others.

Illegal immigration is a different kettle of fish. It is generally dirt-poor individuals who don't have a penny to their name and they are constantly 'on the run' from the legal authorities. They do not have entitlements and only receive the bare minimum of the system which is below satisfactory. They have to resort to crime for money and food, which on the grander scope they are already committing crime by being in the country, these petty crimes are nothing. There are often others found in slave-like conditions and some of these are illegally trafficked into the host nation, so they cannot free themselves from horrible conditions.

So straight away we have two groups of people being discussed and getting lumped together. Three, if you include the Human Trafficking element which people who legally reside in host nations inflict upon vulnerable people.

The big thing with Golden Dawn and its kin, and even whilst reading the topic, people seem to 'miss the difference'. So forgive me for mentioning you again, Panzer, but Golden Dawn wouldn't make an exception for you, because you are not a 'true Greek' and by that, generations of Greek blood, even if you were a model member of society. Such as some people misguidedly believe 'Black' 'Latino's' and others cannot be 'true Americans' even when they are model members of their society and maybe even 7th generation.

Golden Dawn is scum, no question. But did you wonder why they exist. What lefits intellecuals will neverunderstand isthat they simply don't get things very well.

Say thing with poetry, better than just hitting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Sometimes I think you are a bot who posts the same random things again and again regardless of the curse of the discussion.

Please show me these leftists who think gypsy crimes are okay and should be tolerated or whatever you accuse them of doing.
Also what do leftist intellectuals have to do with the existence of Golden Dawn? Are you saying if we deport all immigrants we won't have Nazis anymore? By that logic everybody could have surrendered to the Romans so there wouldn't be war anymore.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Are you mad? That saying is in reference to racist Nazis in the first place. People like golden dawn lol

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No tell me it isn't so

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Roma, leftists and whatnot

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Indeed, leftists are soft on Roma criminals. Just look at France, where those bloody leftists stopped the deportation of Roma the moment that Hollande got elected.

...yeah.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Indeed, leftists are soft on Roma criminals. Just look at France, where those bloody leftists stopped the deportation of Roma the moment that Hollande got elected.

...yeah.

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Gotta hate competition.

But I think that it was under Sarkozy that France starting taking this route, i don't think it comes from that onion Hollande but I am not sure of that

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Gotta hate competition.

But I think that it was under Sarkozy that France starting taking this route, i don't think it comes from that onion Hollande but I am not sure of that

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Honestly frags, do you ever start to check the basic facts of a case?

Yes, it was Sarky who started deportations, as anyone with half a brain knows.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Honestly frags, do you ever start to check the basic facts of a case?

Yes, it was Sarky who started deportations, as anyone with half a brain knows.

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My half of a brain was correct then no? No I don't check things, if I am wrong I just suffer it when corrected. But I wasn't wrong was I. Sarky started it, Hollande keeps doing it. One of the two is a total hypocrite.

Only Foreigners still believe that Holland is a Socialist or a Lefty...:laugh4::laugh4:
He was elected pretending being one, making promises to do a left orientated program but he is worst rightist than Sarkozy. All his political and economical actions are more rightist than Sarkozy. Ok, he doesn't act like a Lunatic as Sarkozy did...
Total, last local election, 64 % abstention, extreme-Right go to vote and got 40 % of the vote. So, Media, lap-dog of the Big Parties, started their hymn to the "Republican" vote against the menace of the Front National. Sorry, I will not vote for the them. The Extreme-Right Party is the guard dog of the system, and we, lefties fall in the trap each time. Not this time, not this time. I will not be hostage of their politic because the 2 main parties and their affiliates the Media play the extreme-right to gather the sheep and frighten them to get the vote.

Got anything more for me, that sounds interesting

It would be a huge mistake to think that Golden Dawn is Greece's biggest problem.

This year, universities don't have enough funding to keep their doors open.

That means that next year, there will be no engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, doctors etc. graduating.

This also implies, that you have a big young and intelligent group of people who are very angry (minus the rich kids who will go study abroad).

For every Golden Dawn you oppress, there will be a Silver, Platinum and Diamond Dawn rising, each with different ideologies, but all of them representing desperate people.

Add to that the fact that Greece has bought a lot of war material, instigated by France and Germany, btw and the fact that Greece has already known military dictatorship and that there are undoubtedly still left overs from that in positions of power.

If the troika continues its' madness, we may very well see civil war in Greece. Unless they get the idea to use their newly acquired and modern weapons against Turkey or, why not, Europe.

The hysteria around Golden Dawn is smoke and mirrors to distract attention for the underlying problems the country is facing.

This will not end well and I think we may very well see war on our continent once again.

It's about time, before we became pussies we had a lot more wars in sixty years. At least Vuk will be proud of us.

What should the Troika do anyway? I can see how what they do now is seen as madness but which alternative is actually better? Greece seems like a black hole for money so throwing more at it does not look like a solution to me.

Nationalize Greece - by force of arms, if necessary. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Husar

It's about time, before we became pussies we had a lot more wars in sixty years. At least Vuk will be proud of us.

What should the Troika do anyway? I can see how what they do now is seen as madness but which alternative is actually better? Greece seems like a black hole for money so throwing more at it does not look like a solution to me.

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I once read that 1 out of 4 commerical ships carries the Greek flag.

The shipping companies have enormeous tax benefits.

But blaming civil servants, immigrants, unemployed and the disabled is easier.

As always, instead of contributing their fair share, the elite prefers war. Makes you wonder what's so elite about the elite.

I thought the Troika just tells Greece to reduce spending and/or increase income in order to achieve a somewhat balanced budget.

I'm not sure whether they can force Greece to tax the shipping companies. And let's not forget that the rich shipping people will leave Greece for the next country to offer them cheap conditions and slave labor if they actually have to pay taxes. There's always some country that loves to sell out to them for short term profit. And for the Greeks this means that even the little taxes they do get fall away while unemployment rises, at least in the short and mid-term.

It's almost as though losing your credit rating while you are financially troubled turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy where you are doomed to fail.