Any frogs about instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
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Any frogs about instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
You mean to say she is not? Wow, what a beginning of the year!Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
When Fragony tried that, she turned into a farm horse.
The problem is not action or in-action in the Middle East, it's lack of consistency.
We support the rebellion in Libya, gaining significant political capital, this triggers a mass uprising in Syria with the expectation that NATO will help topple Assad. We prevaricate (for years), the rebellion stalls, the country is ruined, the Arabs in the Middle East are convinced we only supported Libya for the oil. This leads to a general backlash, the liberal forces in Libya and elsewhere are marginalised and discredited by Western contamination.
Into the vacuum steps ISIS.
One could make the argument that if we had not intervened in Libya things would be better in Syria now but one could equally make the argument that if we had intervened promptly in Syria things would be better in both countries now.
It's easy to say "we should" or "we shouldn't" but it's impossible to know what would have happened either way. What can be said is that we do not have a coherent policy on the Middle East and so we react on an individual basis, and the Arabs interpret this as opportunism.
Only one side can afford to be absolutely consistent in all instances, and it's ISIS, because their nihilistic ideology costs little and already has centuries of fertile ground to plant in. Otherwise, you pick and choose. If picking and choosing cannot allow for a good result, then there is the consistent application of the other liberal argument, which is self determination. That would both fit in with cutting costs, and allows us to credibly clean our hands of the mess that is the Muslim world. The non-liberal argument of forceful imperialism was well and truly lost in the two world wars, so the liberal arguments of self determination and spreading liberal democracy are what we have to choose from. And one of them has been proven to not work in isolation, and is beyond our means across the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
But isn't that basically the case? Some people right here on this board say quite openly that we should and do only care as long as they have some material use for us and humanitarian issues that go beyond that are liberal pinko concerns, who cares if they all die in a fire once we got all their oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
And if anyone dares suggest that this could be remnants of us giving them ideas and leaders without all the education and knowledge that we (try to) give our citizens for the election etc., they're a race traitor right away. It's like we gave them (who we considered stupid monkeys at the time anyway) democracy and if they can't handle it properly without the centuries or decades of societal change and preparation we had before we got it, they're obviously stupid and it's all their own fault and let's not blame us for enslaving them etc., those are old stories anyway... :sweatdrop:
I fully agree that doing the right thing at this point is hard, I would begin by not interfering as much as we currently do, and by that I do not only mean militarily but also in terms of business. Of course we are afraid that the Chinese get all the business then at which point I just put on my Sanders-smile and say "Capitalist competition is a wonderful thing at all times, is it not?".
As a cynic I would say let the Chinese have it and we'll see how they do, in the worst case they may be a good distraction from us, in the best case they can actually help.
I now believe that Bush and Blair did indeed genuinely believe that liberal democracy could be spread to Iraq once the tyrant was toppled. But I thought it was delusional then given the history, and experience has shown that I'd underestimated the hostility that would be shown to us. Since, after we tried to do good, we got hit with accusation after accusation of imperialism, why should we do any more? We tried to bring liberal democracy to Iraq, but despite good intentions we were obviously in the wrong, as everyone keeps telling us. And now the suggested counter policy is met with accusations of leaving the brown people to the fate that the imperialists callously framed for them. Since we're evil imperialists either way, whether we do or we don't, why should we spend money on one option when we can save money on the other?Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
You missed the part of my point where I referred to ongoing imperialism and said fixing it now is relatively hard, but the least we can do is stop the things we're doing now, such as fishing away all their fish, putting their farmers out of work by exporting cheap, heavily subsidized bread and vegetables to them and so on. The evil imperialism I only brought up as a reason people can't just blame the problems solely on the supposed stupidity of the locals. Stop being so defensive about things I did not even say, please. :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
As for the German elections, looks like the AfD gained a few points since December (if the sample of around 1000 people is sufficiently large to not put that within the margin of error), here's is the new result from January 5th, interviews were performed on January 2nd and 3rd.
http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/...90b2df4a4.html
What right do we have in deciding how it should be fixed? You're putting forward the neocon argument of spreading the light wherever it is dark, but Iraq has already shown that the people you spread the light to may have a different idea of what is light and what is dark. The only philosophically consistent argument is self determination. That's treating every country as an equal. Not some as benighted heathens whom it is our duty to bring into the light. We're grown ups, and so are they. We have our personal space, and so do they. If we want to pursue transactions, they are to be agreed between two adults. Not imposed by a grown up on a child, in whatever fashion the grown up deems proper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Now you sound like you basically agree with me and just don't know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
The only difference is that I believe that as adults they also need some space to develop. Your approach seems to me like you denied your child an education and then complain that, now that it is an adult, it has no job. Then you proceed to call the adult a loser who cannot achieve anything in life and say that is entirely his own fault...
Have a good night.
They're not my child, and they have a tendency to produce people who proclaim loyalty to a foreign state and execute acts of violent in western countries in their name, using our intended acts of goodwill as their reasoning. I strongly opposed said act back in 2003, but if, as people keep reminding me, we are to forever suffer the stigma of acting thus in 2003, then I can accept that, and accept the possibility that others may think differently from us, and accept other people's right to live their lives as they will, uninterfered with by us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
If they have these rights, then so do we, and the only practical way of reconciling these is to let them be and keep to ourselves. We were wrong to go into Iraq. So why repeat the mistake? If you're convinced you can do good, you should go ahead and do it yourself. Just as I accept their right to live their lives without our interference, so I respect your right to do whatever you want. And unlike you, I'd even respect your right to do so without subsequently moaning about it with Catch 22 arguments that frame you to be wrong whatever you do or don't do.
Oooh, I'm sorry, my fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
That makes no sense, you can't just stop being guilty by not wanting to be guilty and saying that I were mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
You're still guilty.
There's that Catch 22 argument I mentioned. I'm guilty whatever I do or don't do, and there's nothing I can do or not do to avoid being guilty. Since that's the case and I'm guilty either way, I prefer the cheapest way of being guilty. I'm evil and I'm damned anyway, so let's at least save money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
No, that's deeply immoral, what you need to do is invite a Moroccan to live in your home, convert to Islam and become a vegan. :stare:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Bomb them all!!
Welcome to the .org! Always good to have more quality posters among us.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlBlackoso
German Politician Prevented Police Sharing Image of Christmas Market Attacker ‘to Prevent Racism’
A story that only reached the english speaking world through the daily mail and brietbart but was covered widely in the german media (#1, #2, #3, #4, #5)Quote:
German police and judiciary have accused Hamburg Justice Minister Till Steffen of delaying the release of pictures of the Christmas market attacker Anis Amri because he was worried about provoking “racist” comments on Facebook.
Green Party politician Steffen cited “privacy concerns” when he initially prevented law enforcers from releasing pictures of Anis Amri.
However, it has been claimed by members of the judiciary and the police that Steffen, who is the head of the judicial authority in Hamburg, denied the release of images of Amri because he was concerned it would incite racial hatred.
It is alleged that he only released images after a 12-hour delay following a call from German newspaper Bild.
Joachim Lenders, Hamburg’s chief of police, told Bild:
“It is incomprehensible to throw such a spanner in the works of investigators. Steffen is incompetent.”
Hm. Interesting thought: Germans are unable to understand euphamisms, might explain why goebells was so successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I hit the topic on the nose, you are trying to dilute the map's coverage, imply it is riddled with false reports but I've found your examples to be easy to shoot down.
The german police has frequently used the term southerner when describing middle easterners to muddy the waters and leave open the idea that a suspect might have been an italian, spanish or greek. All in the name of avoiding racism of course.
The accent is hardly worth mentioning, wouldnt be the first time that a long term or second generation immigrant has contributed to the crimes on german streets, I understand you have a sizeable turkish minority from before the crisis, and while they havent acted out like the north africans they havent exactly been among the most well behaved of minorities.
The best you have done is show that perhaps there are pre crisis immigrant crimes included, which is to be expected due to the third party nature of the map being unable to differentiate, and rather unhelpful for you as it only adds to my point of immigration from these parts being a bad idea if even the vetted ranks of the previous waves still let through (or produced) thieves.
I wish you would address all my points as I do yours, I cant tell if you are ignoring half my posts because you dont notice them or cant answer them, you used to be thorough once, back when your dismissals of sources carried some actual weight.