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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Prince Cobra
We hear that the Northern Low Provinces are interested in talks. The governments Spain and Portugal are willing to accept and hear the representatives of the Northern Low Provinces. We would like to point out two major points of the talks. Any proposal to leave the fellow Catholics in the Southern Part of the Low Provinces will be rejected. The terms should include the return of the Ambon Island to the Spanish Crown. For the rest, we are interested in discussing terms.
H.M.C.M.
Philip III of Spain and II of Portugal
Return to the Spanish crown? As far as we understand it in the civilised, non-fanatic, properly religious parts of the world, Ambon Island was taken from the weak-minded and poorly-armed Portuguese by our heroic traders. Without firing a single shot, it should be remembered.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
I already received orders from HRE and England.
According to PC's wish deadline will be end of the week.
If you want to negotiate with France, contact me (Kage is still missed in action!)
Still waiting for Dutch self introduction!!!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Barto
Return to the Spanish crown? As far as we understand it in the civilised, non-fanatic, properly religious parts of the world, Ambon Island was taken from the weak-minded and poorly-armed Portuguese by our heroic traders. Without firing a single shot, it should be remembered.
It is weird how you take a fortress without a single shot. It seems you have been deceived by exaggerated reports. This may actually not be the first time the Dutch East India Company uses dishonest methods in our war. We should remind the world of the numerous acts of piracy committed by the Dutch East India company. While we are still open to dialogue, we can not bear such kind of offensive behavior against one of the peoples under our rule. We can not also hide our confusion: the chief representative of the Northern Low Provinces talks of peace and at the same time he does his best to sabotage any peace efforts. Could the Stadthouder of the Northern Provinces dare to clarify his position before the world?
His Most Catholic Majesty
Philip III of Spain and II of Portugal
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Franconicus
Still waiting for Dutch self introduction!!!
We here, men of the Low Countries, which, hopefully, will one day be known as the Low Country (Nederlands), are men who don't only wear clogs, but good plate and nice hats when needed. We are not Spaniards, that we assure you, and will not rest until such day and hour as the illegitimate occupiers of this land are fleeing, dead, or Reformed. We can count on the support of many, many friends oppressed by Habsburg and other monarchs, friends of great piety and ample means to cover our backs, and will not give up on our quest for the freedom to choose our own religion, the freedom to rule ourselves, the freedom to conduct our business and establish our factories wherever that may be, whatever the wine-imbibing Popish authorities might have to say regarding spheres of influence awarded to the houses of Avis and Österrijk, and the freedom to wear clogs instead of those ridiculous shoes the Spaniards wear. We shall be independent and prosperous, the richest country in the world. God shall guide the Nederland to its rightful place as one of the great among the free!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Prince Cobra
His Most Catholic Majesty
That is the problem right there in your way of thinking, O Popish One: you have not been enlightened by the teachings of Calvijn. The ignorant thinks of all as being in the same condition as he. What piracy? Surely beating you to the first place among the traders in the East Indies (also, it is an interesting observation to make, you refer to the Portuguese as your subjects rather than your equals). The hipocrisy of the Spanish crown would be laughable if not for the number of mindless mind-slaves whom they command: was it not only two decades ago that they attacked the English without even declaring war?
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Pah, the eighty years aren't even up yet. ;)
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Orders sent!:book2:
Sorry for the delay.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Great! Still have some questions though, but work is in progress!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
OOC: Given that this is the first time I've sent in orders, if there's anything that remains unclear, drop me a line.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Royal Proclamation from His Most Catholic Majesty King of Spain, Portugal, Naples and Sicily and the Duke of Milan, King Philip III and II
We would like to publicly accuse the "Stadhouder" of the Netherlands, Maurice of Nassau for the continuation of war of attrition between the Northern Provinces of the Low Lands and the Union under our scepter. Our government was led by good intentions and we were ready to open peace talks but this noble effort was failed by the leader of the so called "Republic". This man seems to aim to expand his influence and grip over the other factions by maintaining the war efforts regardless the material and human price.
We are welcoming the mediation of France and England but our skepticism is growing as the Dutch leadership seems to be fully under the control of an arrogant man and warmonger. We are still ready to extend the olive branch of peace to those who are willing to accept it but our Union will take the measures deemed appropriate to defend our state and trade interests.
Signed,
Philip III & II
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Prince Cobra
Royal Proclamation from His Most Catholic Majesty King of Spain, Portugal, Naples and Sicily and the Duke of Milan, King Philip III and II
We would like to publicly accuse the "Stadhouder" of the Netherlands, Maurice of Nassau for the continuation of war of attrition between the Northern Provinces of the Low Lands and the Union under our scepter. Our government was led by good intentions and we were ready to open peace talks but this noble effort was failed by the leader of the so called "Republic". This man seems to aim to expand his influence and grip over the other factions by maintaining the war efforts regardless the material and human price.
We are welcoming the mediation of France and England but our skepticism is growing as the Dutch leadership seems to be fully under the control of an arrogant man and warmonger. We are still ready to extend the olive branch of peace to those who are willing to accept it but our Union will take the measures deemed appropriate to defend our state and trade interests.
Signed,
Philip III & II
Regarding the first paragraph, we can point out that if His Majesty is willing to cast such aspersions as ‘Catholic’ on his own name he is allowed to, being a citizen of a foreign country, but we will not take such liberties with it. Secondly, we will point out that the crown of Portugal rightly belongs to the House of Avis and their oppressed people, whether noble, merchant or common, deserve to be ruled by one of their own. And last but not least, His Majesty forgot to add ‘zeroth’ after his name, as he's the zeroth ruler of the Low Countries.
Regarding the second paragraph, this is an accusation of such calibre that we cannot accept it. His Majesty might complain about material and human price, but it is our freedom and our possessions that are at stake, not his. If he should not like the situation, he might very well look at how our fellow Nederlanders are allowed to take their possessions with them to whichever Popish-inclined land, they being so obtuse as to think that they cannot be Dutch and follow the Roman priests.
Also, this mention of ‘price’ is too hard for us, given the way in which Papists have long sold indulgences to each other for their own sins.
Finally, the mediation of saner powers is always welcome, but we would like to remind the Spaniards that the Dutch leadership is under no control whatsoever of any Habsburg. Of course we can agree to peace.
-The people of the Nederlands.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
I am a bit busy, so the new chapter will be posted on Monday!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Chapter 4 – Anno Domini 1606
Pope
Pope Urban condamns the Hungrian unrest.
Mediterranean Sea
The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire grants French merchants the sole right to trade with his subjects. Ships and merchants from other Christian countries are ordered to leave the Empire as well as the Merditerranean Sea immediately.
Africa
A Dutch assault against the Porugese fortress "São Jorge da Mina" at the Gold Coast fails.
Indian Ocean
A trade expedition of the English East India Company fails, as they do not get the permission to trade due to the influence of the Portugese.
A squdron of seven Dutch ships operates in the Indian Ocean, sinking several Portugese ships and bombards the town and fortress of Colombo.
America
France increases the settlements at Arcadia and finishes the fortress "Port Royal". France also claims all rights of settlement and trade on the Fleuve Saint-Laurent area including all tributary streams.
Foundation of Jamestown by English colonists.
Foundation of the Dutch colony Nieuw Nederland. The Dutch claim the area of the islands Nieuw Amsterdam und Nassau Island as well as areas along the rivers Noortrivier, Delaware River and Fresh River.
The first Scottish expedition of five ships (Saint Andrew, Caledonia, Unicorn, Dolphin, and Endeavour) sets sail from the east coast port of Leith in July with around 1200 people on board. After calling at Madeira and the West Indies, the fleet makes landfall off the coast of Darien on 2 November.
The settlers christen their new home "Caledonia" declaring "we do here settle and in the name of God establish ourselves; and in honour and for the memory of that most ancient and renowned name of our Mother Country, we do, and will from henceforward call this country by the name of Caledonia; and ourselves, successors, and associates, by the name of Caledonians". With Drummond in charge, they did a ditch through the neck of land that divided one side of the harbour in Caledonia Bay from the ocean, and construct Fort St Andrew, which is equipped with 50 cannon. A watchhouse on a mountain complets the fortifications.
A Dutch squadron raids Spanish ships in the Caribbean Sea.
Europe
Several cities in England, Spain, Germany report that BLACK DEATH is back. Up to now, the numbers of its victims are relatively low and it seems as if the disease can be isolated, but the news spread horror all over the countries and lame trade. In August news goes around that the Black Death rules over Norway and all harbours of this country have to be avoided.
Dutch War
After a rather quiet year 1605, hostilities flare up again. The Dutch army starts the campaign season with limited raids against Spanish positions. In May, the Spaniards strike back, attacking the fortress Bergen op Zoom with about 25,000 men. The Dutch army rapidly gathers reinforcements and stops the assault. In August Spinola starts another attempt and leads his army against the Dutch strong hold of Breda, Breda is one of the strongest cities in the defence of the Republic between the States of Holland and royal Brabant. The city is strategically located on a navigable river, Mark, and near several roads, Spinola is trying to execute the plan to isolate the Republic from its hinterland, and co-ordinated with the naval war spearheaded by the Dunkirkers, to economically choke the Dutch Republic.
The Breda fortress consists of a very high earthen thoroughfare with 15 bastions and a moat. The 55 to 117 meter wide canal is five feet deep and is provided with water from Mark. Access to the city is made possible by four brick gates. Crescent ravelins are applied in the ditches. Hornwork is placed on the gates and at the monastery. Stakewall are built to complicate assault by horsemen and foot soldiers and simultaneously prevent desertion. The fortifications are in excellent condition and serve as a state of the art example of fortification.
The garrison in Breda consists of 17 companies in peacetime, each of which consisted of 65 men and 5 cavalry squadrons of 70 riders each. When it becomes probable that the city would become besieged, the squadrons are supplemented by another 30 riders each; the infantry is supplemented with 28 companies of 135 men. To save food, three squadrons sent to Geertruidenberg shortly before a siege. The castle held approximately around 100 people of the 5,200 soldiers. The male inhabitants of Breda between 20 and 70 years, about 1,800 men, are armed to support the soldiers.
The first Spanish troops arrive at Breda in the middle of August and on 30 September the number is probably around 40,000 soldiers.
Due to the strength of the fortifications, Spinola does not try to assault the city but tries to starve it out. The Dutch try to gather a relief force to end the siege, while they send their riders to interrupt the Spanish supply. In September, the reinforcements arrive from Germany and increase the numbers of the relief army to about 12,000.
In October, the Dutch army, this time not led by Maurice himself, begins to march against the Spanish forces. However, rain stops the enterprise and it is November, when Dutch hit the besiege army. The Dutch manage to break through, inflicting high casualties and sending supply to the town, but Spinola gathers his reserves and is finally able to push the invaders back and to close the besiege ring again. The end of the year finds the situation unchanged, the Spaniards are still besieging the city and the Dutch prepare for another opportunity to end it.
The Spanish casualties are about 12,000 men in total this year, while the Dutch are losing about 5,000 men.
In the meantime, the Spaniards are recruiting new regiments at Flanders and Western Germany.
The Spanish operations are accomplished by the raids of the Dunkirkers, privateers in Spanish services. Although the Dutch try to block their ports, many are able to escape and to attack Dutch merchants and even fishers. This inflicts heavy damage to the Dutch trade.
Beside this there is little fighting at sea, but both sides lay keels for new ships.
Spain
The Spanish King blames Maurice of Nassau for the ongoing hostilities.
He raises new taxes to finance the war.
A book from the author Cervantes published last year, Don Quijote, becomes more and more pobular. It tells the story of a knight, who fights against wind mills.
Netherlands
The Dutch government gives more privileges to the VLO and sets up new ships. For example, the VLO is allowed to recruit local troops to protect their trade bases. Ambion is declared to be property of the VLO.
The VLO sends several expeditions to investigate new trade opportunities. It founds a new trade base at a North American island which they call New Amsterdam.
In the Netherlands several burlesques about Cervantes' Don Quijote circulate. They tell stories of Spanish knight fighting Dutch windmills.
England, Scotland & Ireland
English noblemen are buying Irish land and mining cocessions from the Crown.
Shakespeare's King Lear is currently performed at London. King James cannot watch them, because he and his court are travelling around the coutnry.
The official translation of the Bible is published and is the new fundament for the worship in England and Scotland. There are some disputes about the translation between the different groups of Protestants. The Catholics refuse the translation completely.
Levant Company and East India Company comßplain about failed enterprises and have financial trouble.
The exodus of Catholics continues. Most of them try to find a safe harbor at France.
King James spends millions to increase his fleet.
HRE
Emperor Rudolf sends the Archbishop Elector of Mainz to Donauwörth to sort the conflict out. However, the citizens of Donauwörth refuse to let the archbishop inside the town and to talk to him.
The Duke of Württemberg, responsible for the Swabian Circle and the Duke of Bavaria , responsible for the Bavarian circle, offer their support to fix the problem.
Prince Elector Friedrich of Pfalz begins the construction of the Dutch style fortress Friedrichsburg near Mannheim.
The Protestant clergy refuses an invitation of the Emperor to discuss the conflict within Chrisianity. Instead they meet at Wittenberg. Here they discuss the conflict Protestant Christians have regarding their territorial rulers, which are also heads of the local churches and the emperor.
Wolfgng von Rumpf, Imperial Court Chamberlain, negotiates with the emperor's brothers Maximilian and Matthias and his cousin Ferdinand. His efforts fail. Maximilian, Matthias and Ferdinand declare that Rudolf is no longer able to lead the House of Habsburg and that Matthias is the new head. Matthias refuses the Polish crown and decides to concentrate hi efforts on the problems of Habsburg and the realm.
Turkish War and Hungarian Unrest
The imperial forces receive reinforcements by two infantry regiments sent by the Italian cities and the Pope. Additionally Matthias lead three regiments of Austrian and Bohemian troops.
Matthias sets up his head quarter at Pressburg, to deal with the Hungarian unrest. Fieldmarshal Russwurm organizes the defense against pillaging tartars.
The leader of the Hungarian unrest, Stephan Bocskai, gains more and more support from local noblemen and simple people. Matthias is not able to defeat him. However, he is able to convince Bocskai, that in the long run the only alternative to Habsburg dominion is Ottoman dominian. Matthias and Bocskai sign a peace treaty where Bocskai recognizes Habsburg dominian and Matthias recognizes him as Prince of Hungary. Matthias also guarantees to recognize the rights of the Protestant Hungary and that there will be no more settler from Germany.
This puts an end to the Hungarian unrest. However, this gave the Turks time to enforce their army. The Ottoaman army is already grown to about 60,000 men, still receiving more soldiers month by month. Russman and Matthias discuss whether the should attack with their combined forces of 50,000 soldiers before the relation is getting even more uneven, but in the end they decide to start negotiations with the sultan. Until the end of the talks an armed truce is agreed.
France
The French administration sets up a program to improve infrastructure. New roads and chanels are under construction as well as new ship yards.
France also builds new ships.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Swordsmaster is going to play as France!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
OOC: Could we have an updated list of players and NPC states/polities, please?
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
By invitation of His Majesty King Henry of France and Navarre, all subjects of the King of any religion are invited to send delegations to resolve any and all grievances. The King himself will attend the meetings and provide August judgement.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
I will be offline for a week (visiting the battle ground of Flanders and on the Balkans!).
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
I'm back!
Hope you are ready to continue.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Well, this is exam week, so it was proper that you pop up right now.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Alright, I think your diplomatic efforts should be done. Your moves, gentlemen!!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
What diplomatic efforts? Exams stop only next Wednesday.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Young man, don't you think that war is the real school of life and you should be doing your exams o the battle field?
Alright, let's wait until end of next week! (sigh)
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Worry not, my Franconic friend. Here in the Low Countries we have realised that the Habsburgs clearly disdain diplomacy. Does anybody have anything to discuss with the Stathouder of the United Netherlands?
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Is nobody interested in peace and trade with the sovereign state of the Netherlands?
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
@elbarto: You may try to send letters to the protestants at France, England and HRE.
I received moves from England/Scotland and the HRE
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Prince Cobra
Royal Proclamation from His Most Catholic Majesty King of Spain, Portugal, Naples and Sicily and the Duke of Milan, King Philip III and II
We would like to publicly accuse the "Stadhouder" of the Netherlands, Maurice of Nassau for the continuation of war of attrition between the Northern Provinces of the Low Lands and the Union under our scepter. Our government was led by good intentions and we were ready to open peace talks but this noble effort was failed by the leader of the so called "Republic". This man seems to aim to expand his influence and grip over the other factions by maintaining the war efforts regardless the material and human price.
We are welcoming the mediation of France and England but our skepticism is growing as the Dutch leadership seems to be fully under the control of an arrogant man and warmonger. We are still ready to extend the olive branch of peace to those who are willing to accept it but our Union will take the measures deemed appropriate to defend our state and trade interests.
Signed,
Philip III & II
This proclamation, a copy of which has circulated widely in the Low Countries, is belied, not only by the continued presence of thuggish mercenaries in Spanish employ throughout our own lands, but also by the lack of mediation by the aforementioned states. It is wondered, in our villages, polders and harbours, whether those nations are committed to world peace, or whether they are expecting the Low Countries and Spain to fight each other -after all, France is already an ally of the non-Christian Turkish Sultans and their blasphemous, impudic, slave-taking pirates- and replace our trading fleets with their own.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Barto
This proclamation, a copy of which has circulated widely in the Low Countries, is belied, not only by the continued presence of thuggish mercenaries in Spanish employ throughout our own lands, but also by the lack of mediation by the aforementioned states. It is wondered, in our villages, polders and harbours, whether those nations are committed to world peace, or whether they are expecting the Low Countries and Spain to fight each other -after all, France is already an ally of the non-Christian Turkish Sultans and their blasphemous, impudic, slave-taking pirates- and replace our trading fleets with their own.
My King will be most flattered to hear his words are circulated around the country. I would not be surprised if other things are wondered. For example how Maurice, Prince of Oranje ruined the opportunity with peace with his offensive behavior. This caused the death of thousands of soldiers and enormous hardship to the people in the Low Lands. I hope Maurice will tread now a bit more carefully and at least, he will talk of more respect to my King.
Don Francisco Gómez de Sandoval, 1st Duke of Lerma, Valido of the Spanish Empire
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
That can only be met with scepticism in this land, seeing as it is not our troops that are devastating your lands. It is the Popish rulers in Madrid who are resorting to such measures, the uncivilisedness of which is only matched by their unnecessariness.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
It is the view of the Foreign Minister of France that rebellion against one's rightful Sovereign is against the divine mandate of Kings, and should not be encouraged. It is also true that a Sovereign who does nothing to mitigate the suffering of His people will have to be prepared to deal with rebellion in their Kingdoms. France is willing to mediate in the conflict and encourages both parties to minimise the suffering of their peoples, villages, polders, and harbours. Which are all highly flammable.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
‘Rebellion against one's rightful sovereign’? These words are heard incredulously in the United Provinces. The interpreters are asked again and again, a second and third opinion sought. What is this? Is it possible that the House of Bourbon somehow has not heard that the United Provinces are ruled by no one but their own folk?
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Here is an info for those who may not know where the Scots found their first colony:
The Gulf of Darién is the southernmost region of the Caribbean Sea, located north and east of the border between Panama and Colombia. Within the gulf is the Gulf of Urabá, a small lip of sea extending southward, between Caribana Point and Cape Tiburón, Colombia, on the southern shores of which is the port city of Turbo, Colombia. The Atrato River delta extends into the Gulf of Darién.
I am glad to see things are beginning to work. I am a bit busy, but I am going to reply your questions on Monday.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Still waiting for Dutch and England (?)
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Franconicus
Still waiting for Dutch and England (?)
Will reply tomorrow, or by Wednesday at the latest, depending on connectivity. I am trying to pay my taxes and the government seems to want to make it difficult for some reason, so I'm redacting and consolidating all stuff into one big text file until I am serene enough.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Barto
Will reply tomorrow, or by Wednesday at the latest, depending on connectivity. I am trying to pay my taxes and the government seems to want to make it difficult for some reason, so I'm redacting and consolidating all stuff into one big text file until I am serene enough.
In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes... ;)
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Or other, nastier things.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Barto
Will reply tomorrow, or by Wednesday at the latest, depending on connectivity. I am trying to pay my taxes and the government seems to want to make it difficult for some reason, so I'm redacting and consolidating all stuff into one big text file until I am serene enough.
You pay taxes? I thought you were a rebel and leader of rebels????
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
When can we expect the next chapter, Franc?
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Perhaps the English could benefit from taking some Focusyn, as have I.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Prince Cobra
When can we expect the next chapter, Franc?
Even though I receive new orders every day, I began to write and you can expect the new chapter on Monday.
Here is just an appetizer:
On 30 January 1607, around noon, the coasts of the Bristol Channel suffer from unexpectedly high floodings that beak the coastal defences in several places. Low-lying places in Devon, Somerset, Gloucestershire, and South Wales are flooded. The devastation is particularly severe on the Welsh side, extending from Laugharne in Carmarthenshire to above Chepstow in Monmouthshire. Cardiff is the most badly affected town, with the foundations of St Mary's Church destroyed.
It is estimated that 2,000 or more people are drowned, houses and villages were swept away, an estimated 200 square miles (51,800 ha) of farmland inundated, and livestock destroyed, wrecking the local economy along the coasts of the Bristol Channel and Severn Estuary.
Enjoy your weekend!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
OoC: ahahahah "enjoy your weekend" typical Franc's humour. Have a good one too mate ^^
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Anyone who has watched German workplace security videos can see the wry humour employed to make a point, e.g. do not play with chainsaws.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
The Court of El Escorial has changed profoundly for the last year. Royal hunts has become more and more rare event, feasts are carefully planned and organized, money is less lavishly spent than it used to be. His Most Catholic Majesty seems to have strongly embraced the role given him by divine right. The King spends his long days with his Royal Council, generals, admirals and noblemen from Spain, Portugal, Italy and Flanders. Servants come in and out with maps, documents, letters, bills from all the distant corners to the Realm. The King himself has taken interests in accounting and it is rumored that he has fired one of his secretaries for mathematical errors. The King's attention seems to be focused on a single goal. Flanders. Troops there have to be well paid, well fed, well protected...
For it is under the black sun of this dark country where the pride of the Spanish Empire is defended and the holy war against the Dutch heretics is waged... I, the humble Father Mariana, pray day and night for the victory of our holy cause and for a victory at Breda. I also pray that Our Lord guides His faithful son, the King of Spain and Portugal and gives him wisdom and also physical stamina and strength to endure this test. For the nights are short and days of our King are long...
From a letter of Father Juan de Mariana, Spanish Jesuit and former tutor of Philip III.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
How ridiculous. They claim that their ears are the only ones capable of hearing God's voice and somehow it just happens to tell them that they are right about everything and the just rulers of the universe. And we are the blasphemers.
-from the mouths of passersby in any street in the Nederlands.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Chapter 5 – Anno Domini 1607
The Americas
France founds new companies to foster trade and exploration of the New World and gives them exclusive privileges. Prisoners are released if they agree to settle in Arcadia.
The Scottish Trade Society has to give up her new colony. With financial support of King James and some English ships, the settles move to find another location for their new colony. After a short attempt, where they find out that the coast is contaminated by mosquitoes, the settler sail further north and finally find a new colony at the mouth of a big river which the natives call Mississippi. The new town is called Jamestown and the colony New Caledonia.
Pacific
Dutch ships intercept and raid the Spanish Galeón de Manila.
Europe
Black death disappeared again.
All over Europe there are many trials against witches.
Mediterranean Sea
The ruler of the Ottoman Empire sends his fleet to the Western part of the ocean to demonstrates the claims of the Muslims. Near Malta they meet a convoy from Venice and after a short battle most of the Venice ships are destroyed. The remaining ships flee to Rome where they report to the Pope. The Ottoman ships sail further west, along the northern coast of Africa until they reach the Strait of Gibraltar. As they cannot find any Spanish ships, they return and sail homewards again.
Even though the Ottomans have not inflicted much damage, they demonstrated the power of the Sultan. The North African provinces hurry to assure him heir loyalty and begin to intensify the piracy against the Christian ships.
France
The French government continues to improve the infrastructure of the country and the ability to build ships. It even begins with the next steps to improve the armed forces and to support the economy. A new national standard system is introduced and a census collects data from all over the country. There are rumours that a new tax system is prepared.
There is also a adaptationist program for the armed forces.
The navy receives an Admiralty Board and a Marine Corps. Additionally a new dragoon corps is set up.
The government spends a lot of money to increase the capabilities to produce cannons and other weapons.
Foreign experts are hired to support the army and navy reform.
Netherlands
The Netherlands exchange ambassadors with the HRE. The trade companies intensify trade with England and Northern Germany, but do not operate any longer in the Mediterranean Sea.
The Dutch government recruits 10,000 levies to be able to continue the war against Spain. It also gives letters of marque to Dutch and foreign ship owners willing to raid Spanish ships.
Dutch War
The besiege of Breda continues. Spinola still avoids to assault the Dutch fortifications, while Maurice is still trying to gather more troops. In the beginning of the Lord's Year of 1607 heavy rain stops all hostilities between the two armies and both have to fight against the weather. Field positions and camps turn into swamps and the roads turn into mood. Especially the Spaniards suffer, and dysentery spread around the camp. End of March the son comes out and the Spanish troops try to dry their victuals and rebuild their fortifications. However, there is a floodwater caused by the rivers from the west and flood the Spanish camp once again.
When the waters fall, the Dutch try to lift the siege. They manage to push back the somehow disorganized Spanish troops, but as soon as Spinola deploys his reserves, the ring around Breda can be closed again.
At the same time the Dutch send a fleet of 30 ships under the command of Admiral Jacob van Heemskerk to attack Dunkirk. When the fleet arrives, the warships begin to bombard the Spanish fortifications and send four fireships into the port. Confusion breaks out under the Spanish defenders, many of the Flamian privateers try to leave the harbour in haste, only to sail into the cannon fire of the Dutch ships. After about an hour the Spanish troops succeed in fighting the fire inside the harbour. Heemskerk orders five of his ships to penetrate the harbour. Soon cannon balls are flying through the harbour, smashing ships and destroying harbour facilities. When night falls, there is no more Spanish resistance.
During night the Dutch commanders discuss their next steps. Some of them want to attack and occupy the city at the next morning, others argue that the fleet should sail south to attack the Spanish fleet at Gibraltar and then intercept the Silver Fleet. However, due to shortage of ammo Heemskerk decides to divide his fleet to hunt Spanish ships in the Channel. The Dutch succeed to sink several supply ships as well as fishers. By accident they also sink four French fisher boats. Then they return from their mission.
During the next months, the Dutch and the Dutch supported privateers interrupt the Spanish sea lines. And they do care little if one of their victims sails under English or French flag.
Nevertheless the situation for the Spanish besieger improves, as there is a lot of supply coming from France and the so-called Spanish route. Along with that come fresh troops, Spanish and Italian regiments as well as cavalry. During summer, reinforcements reach the Dutch relief force too, there are soldiers from England and Germany, but the heart of the new troops are two Swiss regiments.
In August messengers tell Maurice that the City of Breda will soon run out of food and so he decides to attack.
At August 14th 6,000 English and German soldiers open the battle by approaching the Spanish lines from the North. However, spies informed Spinola about what is going on in the Dutch camp. After some volleys of artillery, the Flemish and Italian troops start a counter-attack and drive them back. The English and German troops retreat, covered by some cavalry. The Spanish mercenaries advance further, trying to conquer the Dutch camp. All over sudden, they receive cannonball volleys from the surrounding hills and soon the fire of muskets and archebuses joins in. The Flemish flee, but the Italians try to take a safe position on top of a hill. Still under artillery bombardment, they send a letter to Spinola asking for immediate support.
In the meantime, Spanish reserves gather and Spinola sends another 6 regiments with cavalry and some light cannons to the Italians. These fresh troops are again welcomed by the Dutch with bullets and balls. Spinola, leading this attack all by himself, decides to send two regiments and cavalry to assault some hills on the right flank. Here they meet a Swiss regiment and it comes to a melee. The Swiss repel the Spanish assaults twice, but with the third attempt, the Spaniards succeed.
In the meantime another Swiss regiment advanced at the left side of the Spanish, supported by artillery. Spinola finds his rows shaken and he decides immediately to throw more reserves to stabilize this side of the front line. More and more Spanish troops join the battle and slowly the Spaniards gain upper hand. They free the Italian regiment and move further ahead towards the camp of the Protestants.
Then Spinola receives the message that another Dutch detachment is overrunning the besiege ring from the West. He realizes that he may be caught between two Dutch armies and gives the order to retreat. His troops move to the camp and prepare for defence there, while the Dutch troops reach Breda.
During night, Spinola tries to get an overview over his situation and he is shocked about the state of his army. Before the battle, he had already lost about 10,000 men due to fighting, disease and desertion. Thanks to reinforcements, he had been able to field an army of 45,000 men. Now after one day of battle, he has only 25,000 men left. He is sure, that the campaign is lost and so is the Netherlands.
He prepares for defence and sends for reconnaissance. When his spies return, they report that the fields are covered with dead bodies. Inside Breda and around the city there are about 7,000 Dutch soldiers left. Spinola sends more patrols to make sure that there are no hidden hostile troops and then he decides to continue the fight. He gives his army the order to assault Bread and the Dutch positions. However, the Dutch are already retreating and at noon the Spanish flag waves over the city of Breda.
HRE/Austria
Rudolph announces the planned marriage of his son Leopold with Ana Maria Mauricia, daughter of the Spanish King. This arranged engagement costs 2.5 million gulden.
Rudolph denounces Matthias as collaborator of the Saracens. He threatens him with an Imperial Ban. He sends Archbishop Elector of Mainz to the Great Army to represent the Kaiser during the peace talks.
He also sends orders to the Duke of Wuerttemberg and the Duke of Bavaria to execute an Imperial Ban against Donauwoerth. The Dukes gather troops and move towards the rebelliously city. This operation becomes well known as the Campaign of the two Dukes.
When they arrive at the city walls, the gates are closed and the citizens say they trust in God and so the won't surrender to the armies of the godless Kaiser. The two Dukes are not at one what to do. While Wuerttemberg wants to negotiate, Bavaria wants to assault the walls to end the conflict immediately. They besiege the town, but most of the soldiers from Wuerttemberg sympathise with the Protestant sieged. After unsuccessful three months, the Duke of Bavaria decides to act all by himself. He invites his co-commander to go hunting in the Augsburg area. Before they leave, he gives his Bavarian troops orders to assault the town and when the tow Dukes arrive, the battle is already over and Donauwoerth is under control of Bavarian troops. The Duke of Wuerttemberg is furious about this treasonous act and so are his men. The Duke of Wuerttemberg has to take his army back home to avoid open hostilities with the Bavarians. When he is gone, the Duke of Bavaria sets up a huge forfeit for the citizens and declares that Bavarian troops will occupy the city until the forfeit is paid. De facto, this makes the Imperial City part of the Duchy of Bavaria.
Protestant leaders meet at Mannheim. There they found the Protestant Union under the leadership of Prince Elector Friedrich of Pfalz to protect the rights of the Protestants all over the realm. The members of the Union agree to assist each others and to increase their military strength.
In the meantime, Matthias is at the war camp of the Imperial Army. He is sending messages to all the nobles in the land and is receiving messengers. He is negotiating together with Russmann, the commander of the Imperial Army with the agents of the Sultan. Although the army of the Sultan is getting bigger day by day and is already stronger than the Christian troops, the Sultan seems to be willing to make peace with the Christians. The Archbishop of Mainz arrives in the camp and brings the news of the Kaiser. He claims to lead the negotiations in the name of the Kaiser.
Matthias acts immediately. He declares Rudolph as unable to act as Kaiser any longer. He proposes a peace treaty for the next ten years to the Ottomans . The reply is positive, but they have to send for agreement to the Porte . While waiting for an answer, Matthias gathers his Austrian troops and hires some of the Italian regiments joined the Imperial Army. He leads 15,000 men towards Bohemia to end the reign of Rudolph while Russman stays in the east to protect the border.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Like good traders, the Dutch remain hearty after these events. One more city taken and the Spanish will have no army left. Their ‘holy’ war is too costly for them to carry on, especially if their pillaged treasure is diverted to our own lands! Rise, O men of the Low Countries! To arms! The Spanish are as weak as the chins of their inbred Habsburg rulers.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Once the news of the fall of Breda arrive in Spain, King Philip III declares a national holiday and organizes a feast inviting the ambassadors of Austria, England and France. On the feast he holds the following speech
Dear guests,
This is a great day for Spain and all those who directly or indirectly contributed to this success. We will never forget those who helped us and we will return the favor with favor.
There is one thing we cannot deny the rebels. They fought like lions and died valiantly. Almost to the last man. This only makes the feat of our soldiers even greater as they stood against a worthy opponent. We will never forget the brave souls who gave their lives for this great day and those who were ready to die for their King, country and religion. On the 15th of August, the day when we celebrate the Assumption of Mary, it will be good if we pay some thoughts as remembrance of this great battle. The battle of Breda.
We would like to name the hero of Ostend and Breda, Don Ambrogio Spinola Doria, the first marquis of Balbases. He will receive lands an honors proper to his title.
We would also like to publicly condemn the acts of savagery and piracy committed not only against Spanish and Portuguese subjects but also against innocent subjects of the French and English crown. We also hear that Maurice has become very lenient to criminals of all kinds and readily accepted them under his flag. Such acts are deemed unacceptable and we hope our fellow monarchs will not leave this without consequences.
That all being said, we are willing to send envoys to the Dutch and the Council that rules them in order to renew negotiations for peace that have been halted for two years. If the results are promising, we can consider stopping the hostilities. If not..., we will have to increase the pressure on land and sink more of their ships.
Since Maurice has lost significant size of his troops and an important fortress, we hope he will be more responsive to common sense and will stop pushing his people to death and a disaster. In the current position, we expect a peace that reflects our strong position but we will also try to be benevolent in our demands. We hope our secretaries will soon be ready with the first drafts.
May our lands prosper!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Prince Maurice is highly offended by the suggestion that he has accepted Spaniards under his flag. There is such a thing as manners.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
By Order of His Majesty Henry, King of France:
The rebel dutch fleet's idiscriminate attacks on French fishermen and refusal to pay reparations has made His Majesty reconsider the freedoms given to this nation of pirates. From this day, and until further order, dutch shipping is not welcome in French ports, and no trade is to take place with the rebel provinces. Anyone living in the dutch provinces but wishing to become French is welcome to settle in France and enjoy the freedom of religion afforded by His Majesty.
Signed in Orleans, in the presence of the King.
Nicolas de Neufville, seigneur de Villeroy
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
It is most distressing to see that His Majesty has been listening to the more insidious of the Papist priests and has openly Catholicised himself, despite previous assurances to the contrary.
The apparent departure of the Duke of Sully from his post as Minister, if true, would be a deeply regrettable affair.
On the other hand, to see the French fleet departing towards Duinkerken does give us a sense of schadenfreude, so to speak, from seeing Catholic monarchs trying to take each other's lands. Either way we shall profit.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
I will be on vacation this week and the next week. So take your time and enjoy the discussion!!~:cheers:
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Barto
It is most distressing to see that His Majesty has been listening to the more insidious of the Papist priests and has openly Catholicised himself, despite previous assurances to the contrary.
The apparent departure of the Duke of Sully from his post as Minister, if true, would be a deeply regrettable affair.
On the other hand, to see the French fleet departing towards Duinkerken does give us a sense of schadenfreude, so to speak, from seeing Catholic monarchs trying to take each other's lands. Either way we shall profit.
The stadtholder must remain unable to see French shipping. His Majesty's fleet has not been ordered to Dunkirk. The Prince of Oranje should also remember that, while he is not yet a monarch, he is not above taking Catholic monarchs' lands himself. He just isn't very successful.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Message from the Palace of El Escorial, Spain
King Philip of Spain is surprised that the Spanish Empire was not invited on the peace negotiations with the Ottoman Empire. It should not be forgotten that Spain is still officially at war with the Ottomans and a senior member of the Holy League. As a result, His Most Catholic Majesty sends Juan Fernández de Velasco, 5th Duke of Frías to represent the interests of the Spanish Empire on the peace negotiations. The Duke of Frias will also meet Matthias Habsburg and the Archbishop of Meinz, representative of the Kaiser.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Are you ready to continue?
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Franconicus
continue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Barto
*inserts coin*
*shakes machine so that coin becomes unstuck*
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
The destruction of the Dunkirk fleet and the taking of the Manila Galleon clearly demonstrate that our navy dominates the sea. Our ships are faster, more modern, and better armed. The Spanish haven't beaten the Dutch after more than fifty years of terror, Inquisition, and bloodshed. We are safe, we are strong, and we are bleeding the Spanish Empire to death. We shall win because we own the seas and because the Spanish King, in his arrogance, won't let an alien people free.
For the last time, we call on the Spaniards to seriously follow up on their so far lukewarm offerings of peace and truces. Let their Flemish vassals, who actually have an idea of what a polder is, engage in frank and open negotiations with the representatives of the Seven United Netherlands, rather than pillaging Italiotes and freebooting Asturians. Our minds are as open as yours should be.
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Well, we were promised a reply within ‘1-2 days’, a deadline which is long since past. :stare:
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Due to unfavorable weather conditions, it took longer for the message to arrive and an answer from Madrid is sent. We, the King of Spain will no longer deal with verbal skirmishes and we will proceed straight to the topic of truce. We leave to the observers from Europe to draw their own conclusions about the develoment of the war in the Low Lands. We have stated our desire for peace several years ago and we show we keep our word. We officially appoint the Prince of Arenberg as a chief negotiator from the government in South Netherlands and Spain and Portugal.
Our idea of a truce has been put on a paper and will be presented to the States General of the Dutch. We have already sent a copy to Maurice of Oranje. We hope a truce can be achieved until the coming months. If this is not possible, we offer 2 year cease fire in Flanders and the world oceans if the States General of the Dutch are not ready to agree on the truce terms. That being said, if the Northern provinces are ready to accept the document, we may announce the truce immediately. If some changes are needed, a final confirmation from Madrid and Brussels may be needed.
We also remind the Dutch that we are concerned about the consequences of the attacks on English and French ships. We think a proper compensation should be in place for the affected parties.
Attachment 19790
Edited: you can ignore the year... I did not really have time to change it...
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
We now repeat publicly what has been said in private: the occupation of the city of Breda must stop. Immediately.
As for our relations with the Kingdoms of England and France, that is something to be discussed with their representatives, unless the Spanish envoy can produce adequate proof that he is also representing them as well as his own sovereign.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Also, in the spirit of international obligations and so forth which the Spanish declaim, as it is said in their language, from the mouth outwards, we formally request the Swedish crown to explain the non-payment of the Swedish sovereign debt to a fellow Protestant country.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Barto
We now repeat publicly what has been said in private: the occupation of the city of Breda must stop. Immediately.
As for our relations with the Kingdoms of England and France, that is something to be discussed with their representatives, unless the Spanish envoy can produce adequate proof that he is also representing them as well as his own sovereign.
Breda was not mentioned in your private letter. You raised no issue about change of controlled territories by either side.
There is no such thing as occupation of Breda. What is your claim to Breda? Breda is Catholic (though we may consider some compromise about the Protestant minority there). Breda has been conquered at the cost of thousands dead. If you seriously put a claim on this city, you are effectively sabotaging the negotiations. Once again. To add one more reason to it: we have been fighting for 40 years. We can not surrender you a key fortress that we have just won and will keep you in check should you, Maurice of Oranje, break this truce. Surrender of Breda is out of question. We kindly advise you to reconsider your options.
At this stage we do not represent any of these countries. However, in the past both of these countries have shown a gestures of good will and it is not something we forget.
Duke of Lerma, vallido of Spain
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
The impending arrival in Amsterdam of Charles de Ligne, Prince of Arenberg, envoy of Phillip, King of Spain, is most welcome. The West India Company and the East India Company agree that, as a gesture of goodwill, letters of marque against Spanish shipping are declared to be in abeyance for the current year –the ships can be diverted to eliminating pirate fleets or even more profitable transportation of spices.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
We would like to announce our support to the future father-in-law to our beloved daughter Emperor Rudolf Habsburg. We can not approve such a challenge against the royal authority, and especially when this plot is led by his own brothers. Where is their Christian brotherly duty? How would the Austrian branch of the Habsburg's be taken seriously as they can not settle the conflicts within their family? We can not support such a behaviour and accept the removal of an anointed monarch and displacement of the fiancé of our daughter.
Therefore, we would like to appeal to the brothers so that they avoid a mortal sin against their own brother and treason against the HRE crown. We expect that Ferdinand and Matthias will resist the temptation and will discuss their conflict on more friendly terms. Otherwise they risk diplomatic isolation.
We also announce that we will follow the gesture of good will of the Dutch and we will not launch further offensives in Flanders or attack Dutch ships during the coming year.
Signed,
Philip III and II, King of Spain and Portugal, King of Naples and Sicily and Duke of Milan
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Prince Cobra
We also announce that we will follow the gesture of good will of the Dutch and we will not launch further offensives in Flanders or attack Dutch ships during the coming year.
Of course we trust that the city of the church on the dunes will not harbour any ‘neutral’ or ‘self-employed’ pirates plaguing the shipping of the United Provinces.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Announcement from H.M.C.M King Philip III and II of Spain and Portugal, Kingdom of Naples and Sicily, Duke of Milan
We assure Maurice that we follow the spirit of our agreement than the letter. We effectively accept what is meant to be a cease fire. We will not commit in hostilities against the Dutch for the coming year unless the Dutch initiate hostile acts against us and our peoples during the coming year.
We also announce that we will attend a few places outside our capital such as Valladolid and a few cathedrals. We even consider visiting Santiago de Compostela, if the opportunity arises. We would like to thank our Lord for His kindness so far and gain personal impressions from the land we rule. The population and the local grandees will be informed about all the security and day to day matters during the Royal visit.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Prince Cobra
Announcement from H.M.C.M King Philip III and II of Spain and Portugal, Kingdom of Naples and Sicily, Duke of Milan
We assure Maurice that we follow the spirit of our agreement than the letter. We effectively accept what is meant to be a cease fire. We will not commit in hostilities against the Dutch for the coming year unless the Dutch initiate hostile acts against us and our peoples during the coming year.
We also announce that we will attend a few places outside our capital such as Valladolid and a few cathedrals. We even consider visiting Santiago de Compostela, if the opportunity arises. We would like to thank our Lord for His kindness so far and gain personal impressions from the land we rule. The population and the local grandees will be informed about all the security and day to day matters during the Royal visit.
Gentlemen,
I am pleased to read that the diplomacy is in progress. Nevertheless it would be nice if I receive the missing orders. Let's say on Saturday?
Here is some homework for all of you: how many men (soldiers) is the carrying capacity of 1 galleon or a small ship?
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
A european galleon would carry some 60-80 sailors and approximately 100 soldiers. A spanish or portuguese one would have 125-160 soldiers when at war or protecting cargo. On top of that you'd have some 15-18 officers, varying slightly depending on exact era. Additionally you may have enough artillerymen to service the pieces.
I don't know what a 'small ship' you refer to is: galleys tended to be pretty empty, but a typical enterprising pirate could have a crew of 20-40 soldiers and a few more sailors, which is why the spanish convoy system was so effective. Only other large national players or heavily sponsored corsairs could affort to maintain the necessary manpower and ships to attack a fully laden galleon. They were very heavily built - small calibre ammunition would hardly make a dent in the structure, beyond being lucky. Downside of course is that they were very slow, so once the artillery race in the XVIII century created more powerful weapons and casting techniques they were at a disadvantage compared to faster ships which were also heavily armed with newer artillery.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Franconicus
Gentlemen,
I am pleased to read that the diplomacy is in progress. Nevertheless it would be nice if I receive the missing orders. Let's say on Saturday?
Here is some homework for all of you: how many men (soldiers) is the carrying capacity of 1 galleon or a small ship?
Sunday would be better...
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
I believe that the troop capacity listed for ships of the period is much too small.Ships crews were much larger. Even the ships so far back as the Spanish Armada carries larger crews.
The Great Ships (large ships) typically carries a crew of sailors and officers of around 300 and a compliment of marines at least a third that size. Many of the large ships had a full ships compliment of 500. When pressed into service as troop transports this number would increase from 3 to 5 times that number.
Small Ships (middling ships) carried compliments of 160 to 200 and as transports, again, about 3 times the number of troops, or greater, could be transported.
Given these numbers, for game purposes, a fleet of two large ships or 5 small ships should be sufficient to transport a regiment of infantry (unit with the largest number of people).
Depending on distance and circumstances we might expect some attrition to take place in the transport.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Well, Wikipedia for one seems to agree with me:
https://www.wikiwand.com/es/Gale%C3%B3n
under the Tripulacion section you can find some numbers. (Funnily enough that whole section does not exist in the english version of the article, so I suggest google translate. Or learning spanish)
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Or you can get a professional i.e. me to do it for you, rather than a substandard automated translator. ;)
And sure, by the weekend there'll be orders.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SwordsMaster
Well, Wikipedia for one seems to agree with me:
https://www.wikiwand.com/es/Gale%C3%B3n
under the Tripulacion section you can find some numbers. (Funnily enough that whole section does not exist in the english version of the article, so I suggest google translate. Or learning spanish)
Indeed, the numbers are not in the English section.
A part of it is that the Galleon of the era was merely an armed merchantman. It was also an era when merchant shipping needed to be armed. Private venturers would generally be expected to carry smaller crews but this would be more likely to increase the transport capacity of the ships rather than reduce it.
The Royal, Great, or Large ships we may assume are those above 500 tons and she small ships 500 tons and below. Tonnage at the time was not rated displacement but tons of burden. Large ships could go as high a 2000 tons while the small ships sampled were 300 to 500 tons.
The crew and ships compliment numbers found by SwordsMaster are not transport capacities but merely the typical compliment when under way for any duties. The figure of soldiers given seems to be what we would call the Marine compliment or Naval Infantry aboard for defence at sea and as landing party. My crew numbers came from English Ships, which seem to be better documented, at least in English. They seem to be using double the number suggested in the Spanish text for sailors, one gunner per ships gun (the rest notionally made up of sailors to man it), and a compliment of soldiers/marines of about 100+.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2.80.931625.29 (much of the data is incomplete. You may get a sampling of ships of various sizes
The question is “ Troop Transport Capacity” if I understand correctly. Not the ships compliment.
As my information is on ship’s tonnage in carrying capacity, I suggest that we use the expedient of small ships being of 300 tons and carrying 600 troops and large ships being of 800 tones and carrying 1600 troops. That leaves us with 5 small ships or 2 large ships to transport an infantry regiment of 3000 troops. The cavalry regiments would take the same number of transports because of the size of the horses. Artillery regiments could be transported by 1 small ship due to their small size.
These are only expedients for size and capacity. Few naval ships were smaller than 300 tons though the Great ship vary greatly, from 600 tons to above 1500 tones. Transport of troops was usually a matter of hiring or commandeering sufficient ships for the task. Naval vessels would also be used but mainly as escorts for the safety of the troops.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fisherking
Indeed, the numbers are not in the English section.
A part of it is that the Galleon of the era was merely an armed merchantman. It was also an era when merchant shipping needed to be armed. Private venturers would generally be expected to carry smaller crews but this would be more likely to increase the transport capacity of the ships rather than reduce it.
The Royal, Great, or Large ships we may assume are those above 500 tons and she small ships 500 tons and below. Tonnage at the time was not rated displacement but tons of burden. Large ships could go as high a 2000 tons while the small ships sampled were 300 to 500 tons.
The crew and ships compliment numbers found by SwordsMaster are not transport capacities but merely the typical compliment when under way for any duties. The figure of soldiers given seems to be what we would call the Marine compliment or Naval Infantry aboard for defence at sea and as landing party. My crew numbers came from English Ships, which seem to be better documented, at least in English. They seem to be using double the number suggested in the Spanish text for sailors, one gunner per ships gun (the rest notionally made up of sailors to man it), and a compliment of soldiers/marines of about 100+.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2.80.931625.29 (much of the data is incomplete. You may get a sampling of ships of various sizes
The question is
“ Troop Transport Capacity” if I understand correctly. Not the ships compliment.
As my information is on ship’s tonnage in carrying capacity, I suggest that we use the expedient of small ships being of 300 tons and carrying 600 troops and large ships being of 800 tones and carrying 1600 troops. That leaves us with 5 small ships or 2 large ships to transport an infantry regiment of 3000 troops. The cavalry regiments would take the same number of transports because of the size of the horses. Artillery regiments could be transported by 1 small ship due to their small size.
These are only expedients for size and capacity. Few naval ships were smaller than 300 tons though the Great ship vary greatly, from 600 tons to above 1500 tones. Transport of troops was usually a matter of hiring or commandeering sufficient ships for the task. Naval vessels would also be used but mainly as escorts for the safety of the troops.
While I am nowhere near the knowledge of Fisherking and SwordsMaster, we should not forget that food for the crews also needs to be transported. A fleet overburdened with crews and supplies (food, water, cannon balls) is also slower and more vulnerable. I think Franc can look into the size of the Armada Army, the English Counter Armada for example. Then we also have disease as a factor. The food may also get spoiled. Storms also can slow down the said fleet. In addition you have also the sailors. It really depends how far this fleet will go, I think. It also depends whether there are friendly ports to resupply
Artillery needs cannonballs and artillery crew, horses are also heavier than men and require more food, more space and special accommodation. Therefore, it will be more logistically challenging to transport cannons and horses.
I played with some maths...
I would assume a soldier and his equipment (bullet, swords, muskets, pikes, armour) are up to 100 kg, a horse is 600-700 kg on average. I assume you have sailors who are engaged in quite a heavy activities during the day and soldiers that do not need that much food. We can say that the average consumption will be around 2500 - 3000 kcal per day, which was mostly dried bread. Let's be generous and place 1 kg of food per person per day. This does not include the rats that often infest ships and if part of the food gets spoiled. A person also needs fresh water (or rather watered alcohol) about 3 liters a day. It really depends how far the crew will travel. For example it took about 2 months of the Armada to get from Lisbon to the Graveillenes. This can be more or less depending on the weather conditions. A horse needs around 11 kg food per day. I would assume it also needs quite a bit of water: around 50 liters per day (1 liter of water is about 1 kg). Depending on the task of the army, supplies for some time on land will also be needed.
I also found this:
Quote:
This document established predetermined rations for each sailor, which included one pound of biscuits and a gallon of beer each day and four pounds of beef, two pounds of salted pork, three eights of a twenty-four-inch cod, two pints of peas, six ounces of butter, and between eight and twelve ounces of cheese each week.
https://csphistorical.com/2016/01/24...irates-part-1/
Of course, there might be the option to hire merchants ships (for a price) for extra carrying capacity. However these ships would be more vulnerable to attacks than a war ship.
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
I began with a new job and it is killing me. Please give me some time!
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Re: The Art of Diplomacy and War
Unemployment is underrated.