Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

First day was great. Much less fun without Sooh and you.

I recall no details, but retain an impression of you showing game.

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Well I wouldnt say less fun. It was still lots of fun reading with Awa and Tigger imo ^^

Ok class, today we're going to talk about your favorite Grandmaster. I'm sure you've all heard of him.

(It's me)

just checked that game. sooh was the top poster, a villager, and lynched d1. :laugh4:

Winston didn't hard-claim miller. @Zack, what do you think this means?

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Originally Posted by Slaan

Btw why doesnt this site have any good forum skins ;_;

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TheGuild

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Ok class, today we're going to talk about your favorite Grandmaster. I'm sure you've all heard of him.

(It's me)

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albus dumbledore

Don't you dare submitting me to another championship!

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Winston didn't hard-claim miller. @Zack, what do you think this means?



TheGuild

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he's a no-good mongrel and should be put down with the swift hammer of justice

maybe he's a neutral survivor

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Originally Posted by Zack

just checked that game. sooh was the top poster, a villager, and lynched d1. :laugh4:

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It was frustrating... and I chickened to defend her cuz I didnt want more spotlight on myself so I'd survive the night... that worked out well.

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Originally Posted by Slaan

Well I wouldnt say less fun. It was still lots of fun reading with Awa and Tigger imo ^^

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Terrible!

There's good and there's not good, and that's ^^^ not good.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Terrible!

There's good and there's not good, and that's ^^^ not good.

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I didnt say it was good, I said it was fun. Like lol fun :)

Pizza -- how late you plan on staying up tonight?

vote: pizza

I'm obvscum at this point.

Put me out of my misery.

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Originally Posted by Slaan

I didnt say it was good, I said it was fun. Like lol fun :)

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It reminded me of Kids Chess Camp. I was the arbiter of a tournament, and a kid raised his hand and said he was in stalemate. His king was in check by five pieces.

It was a little bit like that.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

vote: pizza

I'm obvscum at this point.

Put me out of my misery.

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working on it chief

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

It reminded me of Kids Chess Camp. I was the arbiter of a tournament, and a kid raised his hand and said he was in stalemate. His king was in check by five pieces.

It was a little bit like that.

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Yep, sounds about right :)

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Originally Posted by Zack

Pizza -- how late you plan on staying up tonight?

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I get paid by the hour. You tell me.

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Originally Posted by Zack

working on it chief

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Scummy, you're voting Csargo.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I get paid by the hour. You tell me.

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I ... don't understand what you're implying here, or what the joke is if it's a joke

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Scummy, you're voting Csargo.

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pffft

the day is 72 hours

everyone knows that early wagons will disappear by eod

I have twenty spreadsheets and six unpaid interns crunching the numbers as we speak to determine the optimal time for me to re-introduce the winston case so it gets him lynched

I won the rand by the way. And not by a small amount. The computer says plus a thousand right now.

That seems terribly inefficient.

I just re-read pizza's posts and i don't think i have any idea what he's saying in any of them

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Originally Posted by Zack

I ... don't understand what you're implying here, or what the joke is if it's a joke

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I can tell you're confused, but that's okay. You were confused when you walked in.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(I'm in character.)

Right Arjun?

did you switch accounts with el barto?

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Originally Posted by Zack

did you switch accounts with el barto?

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INCORRECT!

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Originally Posted by Zack

civ 5 was pretty solid with both expansions I think

I expect 6 will be the same way, though I also foolishly bought it on release like you

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GalCiv 3 has been my jam lately. It's almost hard to go back to CIV 5 after that. But, it should also be 1UPT, in my opinion. And only maybe make an exception for fleets.

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Originally Posted by Logic

GalCiv 3 has been my jam lately. It's almost hard to go back to CIV 5 after that. But, it should also be 1UPT, in my opinion. And only maybe make an exception for fleets.

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my problem with 1upt is that it makes the AI even more atrocious at warfare

I can effectively defend against a huge AI army with like, a couple archers

1upt = Very suspicious game design.

oh, 4k posts

neat

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Originally Posted by Slaan

Civ4 best civ done and done.

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I cut my teeth on Civ2 Fantastic Worlds, and eventually came to the conclusion that Alpha Centauri is the best CIV game. Barely played 3, and 4 was missing disks when I bought it, so it is immediately disqualified.

I just did Zack's ISO.

Forty posts, not even a hint of solving.

Making all nicey-nice with the main influencers.

Total manipulation.

Don't believe his lies.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

I just did Zack's ISO.

Forty posts, not even a hint of solving.

Making all nicey-nice with the main influencers.

Total manipulation.

Don't believe his lies.

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I'd be embarrassed if you found anything else.

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Originally Posted by Zack

my problem with 1upt is that it makes the AI even more atrocious at warfare

I can effectively defend against a huge AI army with like, a couple archers

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If you have some spare dinero, give GalCiv3 a shot. It's probably similar enough to the other dogs that you will enjoy yourself. An added feature is the starship designer, whether you are feeling creative or just want the same ship with lasers instead of missles.

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Originally Posted by Logic

If you have some spare dinero, give GalCiv3 a shot. It's probably similar enough to the other CIVs that you will enjoy yourself. An added feature is the starship designer, whether you are feeling creative or just want the same ship with lasers instead of missles.

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Edit

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Originally Posted by Zack

I'd be embarrassed if you found anything else.

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You've bit off more than you can chew here.

This day ends with one of us dead.

It won't be me.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

I just did Zack's ISO.

Forty posts, not even a hint of solving.

Making all nicey-nice with the main influencers.

Total manipulation.

Don't believe his lies.

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Solid!

This reminds me of Kiril Georgiev (your favorite Georgiev), who got the world record for most simultaneous chess games played. 360 games played at once over 14 hours. Man, if I did a 360 I'd be going in circles by the end.

Force thunderdome between Winston and Zack. Get to it in a few days.

So, uh, how about that C&C:Generals?

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

You've bit off more than you can chew here.

This day ends with one of us dead.

It won't be me.

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:duel:

Me when opening the thread: Oh crap, the game started 1.5 hrs ago, I need to catch up on all the vital discussion that's been happening!

I'm very disappointed in all of you. Also, hi everyone!

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Originally Posted by Dp101

Me when opening the thread: Oh crap, the game started 1.5 hrs ago, I need to catch up on all the vital discussion that's been happening!

I'm very disappointed in all of you. Also, hi everyone!

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did you actually expect anything else?

zack/pizza/gh

Plus monty if there's four.

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Originally Posted by Zack

did you actually expect anything else?

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I actually kind of did.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Solid!

This reminds me of Kiril Georgiev (your favorite Georgiev), who got the world record for most simultaneous chess games played. 360 games played at once over 14 hours. Man, if I did a 360 I'd be going in circles by the end.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FobA0-M8Y0

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

zack/pizza/gh

Plus monty if there's four.

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S P I C Y

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Originally Posted by Dp101

I actually kind of did.

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have you ever read the first page of a mafia game before?

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Originally Posted by Dp101

Me when opening the thread: Oh crap, the game started 1.5 hrs ago, I need to catch up on all the vital discussion that's been happening!

I'm very disappointed in all of you. Also, hi everyone!

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Town.

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Originally Posted by Dp101

S P I C Y

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Lock Town.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

You've bit off more than you can chew here.

This day ends with one of us dead.

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Not necessarily.

A kid at my chess camp grabbed his queen and deliberately put the opponent's king in stalemate. He even said "stalemate" as he did it. He was really proud, he knew what stalemate was. This could end up like that.

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Originally Posted by Zack

have you ever read the first page of a mafia game before?

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Yes, and I'll have you know that at the forum default, there are 5 pages thus far.

why aren't you being fun winston?

are you a wolf?

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

zack/pizza/gh

Plus monty if there's four.

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Replace GH with Slaan and you've got the top posters. Interesting.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

zack/pizza/gh

Plus monty if there's four.

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Very suspicious.

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Originally Posted by Zack

why aren't you being fun winston?

are you a wolf?

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He was being plenty fun earlier.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Very suspicious.

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Originally Posted by Dp101

He was being plenty fun earlier.

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The mood all changed.

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Originally Posted by Dp101

He was being plenty fun earlier.

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are you making a point, or correcting a technicality?

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Originally Posted by Zack

are you making a point, or correcting a technicality?

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Bit of both. I think fun winston is probably town winston.

Vote: Slaan

Welcome to the .Org! ~:wave:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

To the rest of you, I'm ashamed that it took you this long to properly baptize him.

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Originally Posted by Dp101

Bit of both. I think fun winston is probably town winston.

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Yeah, that's my point.

He either stopped or pretended to stop way earlier than I'd expect for him.

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Originally Posted by Zack

why aren't you being fun winston?

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I thought I was. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Zack

are you a wolf?

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No, I'm just a little drunk and out of practice.

Ah, there's the problem. You should be a lot drunk.

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Originally Posted by Zack

Ah, there's the problem. You should be a lot drunk.

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Aye, but I'm out of practice at that too.

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Originally Posted by Zack

Yeah, that's my point.

He either stopped or pretended to stop way earlier than I'd expect for him.

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After this post, Zack is slightly better. Computer says +1.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Aye, but I'm out of practice at that too.

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Just stay away from saying anything in a public discord server for MU or voice chat.

Trust me on that one.

Way ahead of you on that.

Dp101 - Lock Town
Slaan - Town

Logic - Null
Csargo - Null

Monty - Third Party

pizza - scum
GH - scum

Zack - lock scum

Pizza -- did you read the exhaustive post Monty made about your meta, I think it was in the xcom postgame? And if so, has that affected how you're approaching this game at all? Also, say something funny in Swedish.

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Originally Posted by Zack

Pizza -- did you read the exhaustive post Monty made about your meta, I think it was in the xcom postgame? And if so, has that affected how you're approaching this game at all? Also, say something funny in Swedish.

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INCORRECT!

I wrote all of that, for him.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Dp101 - Lock Town
Slaan - Town

Logic - Null
Csargo - Null

Monty - Third Party

pizza - scum
GH - scum

Zack - lock scum

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are any of these serious?

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

INCORRECT!

I wrote all of that, for him.

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wait, what
@Montmorency is this true?

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Originally Posted by Zack

are any of these serious?

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Serious? Vaguely.
Honest? Not entirely.

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Dp101 - Lock Town
Slaan - Town

Logic - Null
Csargo - Null

Monty - Third Party

pizza - scum
GH - scum

Zack - lock scum

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Strong. Like Zack's usual basketball gif, but the opposite.

Very well.

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Originally Posted by Zack

wait, what
@Montmorency is this true?

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Sure. I kept the PM formatting, didn't I? I had the little question at the top of the exchange.

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Originally Posted by Zack

are any of these serious?

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It's a brave post coming from scum.

Let's put it to the test. Vote: Zack

What kind of 3P am I, Winston?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Ultimate PIZZA Analysis for Justice

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

found it. I can post this in postgame, but here you go for now.

I haven't re-read this closely, it's a copy and paste, so if something doesn't make sense, ask me.



Start with this general pattern of how I approach the game.

Scum pizza:

Later stages of the game = more investment
Good chance of getting one more mislynch if I try hard = more investment
No realistic chance of being caught by cop, which is the single most frequent reason I ever lose a scum game = more investment
Odds I am forced to be the last wolf standing, because my buddies died = more investment
Odds we win the game or make it a nearly impossible final round to solve if I invest more this phase = more investment
Town is on a path to self-destruction this phase = less investment or less desire to change the situation, just keeping up appearances.
Size of game at game start = drastically less investment as scum, the bigger the game is. No way I want to trade myself for spewing a bunch of townies clear. Better to die and have my team be unknown. You can't help the folks that voted you early, but you can help preventing there being a bunch of additional townies cleared from your own actions.
Endgame = most critical for scum. Even 1 wolf can win the game if partners die early and it's not obvious who the partner is. But you need to have a good endgame regardless or you won by luck, and I don't aim for that.

So, those games will be middle-game/endgame heavy and early game light.

Specific exceptions can occur rarely. Otherwise this pattern works and I use it a lot. People are reading individual posts for scumminess rather than the overall approach I'm taking to the game anyway, and I can typically make my individual posts mimic my town game enough to fly. But the behavior is different and the approach is different, because I'm trying to achieve a much different aim.

I'm never approaching the game as: Be identical to my town game, because (a) I lynch, because I get lynched as town a lot (b) if I don't lynch I get murdered as town a lot, and therefore (c) I don't survive endgame situations as scum by mirroring my approach as town, it sticks out that I'm even alive. I have to make it look like I'm giving medium investment at most at the beginning. I am also specifically not playing for survival to endgame, but for a partner to win. I'm likely to lynch during play, it's just how I am, but I can set it up so that one or two of my partners have a fantastic endgame and town can't find them, if I can, that's my chosen and preferred method.

Some people play scum in such a way that they want to avoid being lynched as much as possible, I do not. I avoid being lynched to a point, and the point is when I've traded myself for enough townies (example in futurama, 7 townies is a good trade for 1 scummy pizza) or have made the overall team difficult to solve even if I do die. At that point, it's a good idea for me to be lynched, because that's another free round for my partners to skate through. And people don't know if my buddies bussed, protected, or had no opinion on me, because I try to average out those postures.

I approach it as: Survive day one, get as many mislynches as possible by pushing it myself or letting it happen, set up teammates for a good endgame, confuse people, derail discussion, make people focus on the wrong things, don't make the team obvious. Depending on who I'm playing against, that might mean playing in a way that would look like X and Y are my obvious buddies, but it can't be, because levels.


Town pizza:

First 3 phases of the game = most critical phases for town. Even day 1.

-You can die at any time, and several bad lynches puts town deep in a hole, especially if they did it to themselves and the scums walked away clean. You don't recover from that.

More people posting more substantively = more investment, because more I can analyze.
Size of game at game start = more investment in the game (to a limit, mashes plateau a bit because too much to read)
Sense that town is off to a bad start = more investment. (If I sense that town is doing very well, I worry a lot less. Otherwise I'm trying to right the ship)
If I am not being dogpiled = more investment because I can think clearly and I also think what I say will be considered.
Anytime mid-game to end-game = every round I am trying to completely solve the game as if it was the final round, with progressively better data.
I also almost never make it this far as town, so expect me to never ever phone it in.
Town games will be obvious that I'm town within those first 3 rounds, if you know how to read me at all, which people don't because paranoia plus aversion to pizza walls and mountains of individual posts.

If I get lynched in a game as town, it usually occurs before I can locate a scum or clear myself in any way. Some games the town is not in the mood to try to clear me and I'm not in the mood to try hard to clear myself. It's okay to be lynched once in a while, it's just a game.

When it's clear I'm going to be lynched as town I look for the wolves, because the townbloc shattered and no one is taking my opinions of who the townies are under any sort of consideration, so that's a bad investment of what little time I have. If I can find 1 scum and make suspicion go there convincingly, even if it's not enough to save me, it puts the idea into people's brains and gets them to not allow that person to skate through the game without any scrutiny. Since the only way my reads will be taken as genuine is with my head, and people aren't going to remember a big, complicated message, I have to focus it down to a solve or partial solve for scum only. Best guess for top scum, and push that as hard as possible, and hope it's right because town's already in bad shape at that point, and me being wrong and convincing people is not great. Still have to try.

If I'm a scum, depending on the game state, I can mimic this behavior because it's also useful in trying to get suspicion on someone else anyway. And it could be distancing or bussing so it's usually null.


There are a lot of possibilities I don't mention because I already go into too much detail about my thoughts that I'm confident on. In that situation I had the Jowy wagon as all townie or dp, and dp actually looked better after jowy flipped town. If he was scum that vote should have been more automatic, imo. Plus he had been under the gun d1 and I wanted to give him a day, and I think that was a good decision. I stand by it. Turned out to be the good choice, too. Our day 2 was very productive and it busted the game open.

I feel like... your instincts about me are often backwards, but not always. I'm just odd to you and vice-versa. Which will always make me difficult for you to read, and I cop to you being difficult for me to read.

This meta may help, but it won't help you in a situation where I don't produce as much on day one because that day one was mostly absentee townies and lack of content. There were a lot of engaged townies this time.

I feel like you need a good three days to have a shot at reading me. Before that, I haven't gotten into my groove and my reads are bad, I need data to do good analyses. After that, it's too late if I'm scum.

Evaluate me late on day 3. Lynch me day 3 if I've failed to look townie.

I should be pure by day 3, like dp101. And like him, if I don't get enough space to do my thing, I never find anyone, and never get clear, and I can look scummy to people if I'm even a little off. And I have range, so even town games won't be identical.

It's okay to be wrong, but I'm a d3 read, not a good d1 read.

I mean, if I under-perform to the point I look like the last 3 scum games, mark me down as wolfy as hell and let people know. Or if you otherwise get such a read, let people know. But since I will rand town more often than scum, and you get better read on my slot by day 3's efforts from me, you'd be able to find me townie when I'm town more often just before mid-game.

My d1s as town, even when they're townie, tend to suck. That's why my reads re-evaluate so much. But even based on that little bit, novice dropped all d1 for me and Manasi dropped by n1, and I found some townies. That's a good day 1 for me.

Even if no scums found, more townies found than the mafia can kill per night, is a solve. That's what I can reasonably aim for. And then I re-evaluate the townies that don't belong in my town, like Manasi.

That's my whole process, when I'm serious and my town is serious, in a game this size.

I'd play it about the same as a town power role, I feel my reads are more important than my power, unless I'm the cop or the vig. And even then, I want to have excellent reads, because it really helps those roles perform well.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Strong. Like Zack's usual basketball gif, but the opposite.

Very well.



Sure. I kept the PM formatting, didn't I? I had the little question at the top of the exchange.



It's a brave post coming from scum.

Let's put it to the test. Vote: Zack

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boo this post

why is that brave, he even admitted it's not entirely serious or honest

this is really low-effort for you monty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

Dp101 - Lock Town
Slaan - Town

Logic - Null
Csargo - Null

Monty - Third Party

pizza - scum
GH - scum

Zack - lock scum

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This is a legal chess leans list.

I'm sorry, the way I presented that makes it seem like I wrote it. This was my question to which Pizza wrote that response:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Pizza, there was a thing N1 where you wanted to explain post-game why/how you were so towny, or why that evaluation should apply to the output we were seeing. Would still like to hear; it can also wait until true post-game if you like.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zack

boo this post

why is that brave, he even admitted it's not entirely serious or honest

this is really low-effort for you monty

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That sounds like you're relying on his post-hoc self-deprecation. Taken alone at the time of its posting, it was the first proper reads post taking some stands.

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Sense that town is off to a bad start = more investment. (If I sense that town is doing very well, I worry a lot less. Otherwise I'm trying to right the ship)

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do you think we're off to a good start?