well off the top of my head I can think of
Captain Fishpants
EatColdSteel
(these spellings are not entirely correct)
Printable View
well off the top of my head I can think of
Captain Fishpants
EatColdSteel
(these spellings are not entirely correct)
Intrepid Sidekick
Captain Fishpants
JeromeGrasdyke
Are three that I know of... there are others.
Well, after what I though we should work out complete Texts and combine them in an Portofilo to be sent by Post to CA's Development-Department.
Anotherthing we can do is to use the Results of our Research for produceing a Mod based on Viking Invasions, with which we can show exactly what we think that should be done...
We might be able to ge a Mod to sticky a Link leading here in the Colloseum saying something like "CA please read this".
The staff who read the forums do go where it says "read this ect." just throwing an idea out there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif
Cebei wrote:
Sure What faction? With that library, if you have the time, you can do that too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-thumbsup.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
I think you all of you are finding great info at lightning pace http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-dizzy2.gif
I'll try to catch up... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-lost.gif
The groups so far:
Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax
frogbeastegg
Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO
Nowake
Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk
Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake
Who will do the Celti-Iberian research?
Parmenio
Aymar de Bois Mauri
Game accuracy information:
Cebei
Teutonic Knight
But like Nowake, Cebei and Teutonic Knight said, we really should try to coordinate ourselves. I'm getting lost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-confused.gif
As for Rosacrux:
I agree that we should make something about that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/gc-yes.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
But I didn't start this group. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/gc-cry.gif
If everyone agrees, why not? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-thumbsup.gif
Do you really want to make it a separate group?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Wouldn't it be beneficial to the workload if it was the same?
You could do the research until someone else is available to help you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif
Let's see if I can catch up to you guys... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-wink2.gif
What does "Viriato" mean?
Viriato (pronounced: Vi-rah-'ta)
Portuguese male's name ' Viriato':
from the Latin male's name Viriathus or Viriatus',
from the Latin noun Viriae',
from the Continental Celtic noun for 'arm ornament or bracelet'.
Sources:
viriae: n, Latin derived from Celtic, for a kind of ornament for the arm, armlets, bracelets. 1
viriâtus: a, um, adj. [viriae], adorned with bracelets. 2
Viriâthus or Viriâtus: i, m., a celebrated leader of the Lusitans in the war against the Romans. 3
Biography of Viriato
For nearly 200 years, the Roman Empire waged an episodic war attempting to colonize the Iberian peninsula in western Europe. The most difficult fighting was encountered in the western areas of the peninsula - the home of the tribal confederation known as the Lusitans.
Viriato lived in the Mons Herminus hills (modern day eastern Portugal). He was famous for his physical prowess and stamina, his sobriety and his disregard for personal wealth. The historian, Diodorus writes of Viriato's wedding, to the daughter of a rich landowner whom he regarded with some reserve because of his father-in-law's support of Roman ways. Remaining unmoved by the display of gold, silver and expensive fabrics at his wedding feast, Viriato refused pressing invitations to take a place of honor. He remained standing, leaning on his spear and took only a little bread and meat, which he shared with his companions. When the bride was brought before him, he offered sacrifice in the Lusitan manner, set her on the cropper of his horse and rode away into the hills to his hideout.
Pre-dating the birth of Viriato, the Lusitans had traditionally raided lands to their east and south, taking livestock from their neighboring tribes. The Lusitans had seen the Roman presence (started around 198 b.c.), become progressively more domineering in the region, and sought to check their colonization by raiding Roman settlements and army camps. Subsequently the Romans branded these Lusitans barbaric brigands and sought to exterminate them.
Leading up to 146 b.c., Viriato initially lived as a pastoral goat herder, then engaged in Lusitan raids on Roman settlements as a source of wealth.
In 146 b.c. Viriato was elected Chieftain after he lead the survivors of a massacre out of a Roman deathtrap. His ingenious guerrilla tactics and success at taking the battle to the Romans, kept the Romans out of Lusitan tribal lands, curtailed their advances into other parts of the Iberian Peninsula and sparked "rebellions" with other tribes under Roman control.
In 141 b.c., Viriato, allowed a defeated and prostrate Roman army to return to Rome, requesting only that the borders of the Lusitans be respected and that the Lusitans be granted the status of 'amici populi Romani ' - 'friends of the Roman people'. These peace terms were actually ratified by the Roman Senate.
During the next two years the Romans broke this and other treaties they made with the Lusitans. In 139 b.c. the Roman general bribed 3 lieutenants of Viriato to kill him, they assassinated Viriato in his sleep.
It was not until 19 b.c. that the Roman Empire including legions under the command of Julius Caesar and Augustus, had waged war on the Lusitans that they were defeated, enslaved, and all of their lands annexed into the Roman Empire.
For the next 250 years, history begins to keep a more descriptive record of Roman expansion in Europe. From this history we find many more accounts of the wars in later-day France, Germany, England and the rest of Europe, and the names of other great tribal leaders who fought to remain free against Imperial Rome.
Lusitan Culture and History
Megalithic Age:
Monuments on Lusitan tribal lands, (in central/northern Portugal and southern Galiza).
1. Antas do Barrocal
2. Cromlech dos Almendras
3. Cromlech dos Almendras
4. Dolmen de Arca
5. Menhir y Cromelach do Xarez
6. Orca de Pendile
Bronze and Iron Ages:
Before the Greeks and Romans stumbled over:
"It is believed that the Lusitans had arrived in the Iberian peninsula more recently than their neighbors the Turdetans and the Celtici of Cuneus.
They probably came about the same time as the Celtiberians in the valley of the Ebro River and the mesetas of the hinterland, sometime before 700 b.c.
One can safely say that they belonged to the great Celtic confederation which invaded the Iberian peninsula about seven centuries before the birth of Christ, and collided with the Gallic peoples and those belonging to the Euskarian and Indo-Scythian races who had occupied the peninsula for an unknown number of centuries, ever since the first migrations of the Asiatic hordes into the West.
The Lusones, who in the opinion of Strabo, lived near the sources of the Tagus, and who were members of the Celtiberian nation, were probably only an offshoot of the Lusitans, who remained on the highlands of the Ibubeda.
Their name could well have been the original name of the Lusitans, who, in successive waves of conquest, came down from the sources of the river, where they had first settled, as far as its lower reaches and it's mouth, the broad and deep body of water which flows into the Atlantic Ocean."
Greek and Roman writings:
"All the men dress in black, for the most part in coarse cloaks, in which they sleep, on their beds of litter. But the women always go clad in long mantles and gay colored gowns.
Instead of coined money the people, at least those who live deep in the interior, employ barter, or else cut off pieces of beaten silver metal and pass them as money.
They marry in the manner of the Greeks. Their sick they expose upon the streets, in the same way as the Egyptians did in ancient times, for the sake of getting suggestions from those who have experienced the disease.
All the mountaineers lead a simple life, are water-drinkers, sleep on the ground, and let their hair stream down in thick masses after the manner of women, though before going into battle they bind their hair about the forehead. They eat goat meat mostly. They also hold contests, for light-armed and heavy armed soldiers and cavalry, in boxing, in running, in skirmishing, and in fighting by squads.
And the mountaineers, for two-thirds of the year eat acorns, which they have first dried and crushed, and then ground up and made into a bread that may be stored away for a long time. They also drink beer; but they are scarce of wine, and what wine they made they speedily drink up in merry feastings with their kinfolk; and instead of olive-oil they use butter. Again, they dine sitting down, for they have stationary seats built around the walls of the room, they sit themselves forward according to age and rank. The dinner is passed round and amid their cups they dance to flute and trumpet, dancing in chorus, but also leaping up and crouching low.
The Lusitans are given to laying ambush, given to spying out, are quick nimble and good at deploying troops. They have a small shield two feet in diameter, concave in front, and suspended from the shoulder by means of thongs, for it has neither arm rings or handles. Besides these shields they have a dirk or butchers' knife. Most of them wear linen cuirasses; a few wear chain-wrought cuirasses and helmets with three crests, but the rest wear helmets made of sinews. The foot-soldiers wear greaves also, and each soldier has several javelins; and some also make use of spears, and the spears have bronze heads.
The Lusitanians offer sacrifices, and they inspect the vitals, without cutting them out. Besides, they also inspect the veins on the side of the victim; and they divine by the tokens of touch too. They prophesy through means of the vitals of human beings also, prisoners of war, whom they first cover with course clocks, and then, when the victim has been struck beneath the vitals by the diviner, they draw their first auguries from the fall of the victim. And they cut off the right hands of captives and set them up as an offering for their gods."
An account of a confrontation with Roman general Fabius Maximus Servilianus and his army of 18,000 troops and 1600 cavalry near Itucca - "Viriato, at the head of 6000 troops, attacked him with loud shouts and barbaric clamor, his men wearing the long hair which in battles they are accustomed to shake in order to terrify their enemies."
The modern "Galego-Portugues" language descends from the Latinized Lusitanian tongue.
Larger than life sculptures, carved out of a single piece of granite, the ancient 'guerreiro' sculptures, have been damaged from being purposely tipped over, causing the head and feet to be broken off, done initially by the Romans, but also later by others seeking to destroy veneration of Lusitan culture. "Restorations" done over the centuries, do not always do justice to the sculptures:
References
1. Pliny 33, 3, 12, 40; Tert. Pall. 4 mde.; Ambros. Abrah. 1, 9 88. Ancient texts.
2. Lucil. ap. Non. p. 186, 30; Varr. ib. p. 187, 14. Ancient texts.
3. Liv. Epit. 52; 54; Vell. 2, 1, 3; 2, 90, 3; Flor. 2, 17 fin.; Cic. Off. 2, 11, 40; Val. Max. 6, 4,2; Sil. 4, 354; 10, 219. Ancient Texts.
4. Appian. Appian's Roman History, Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapters 10-12. Cambridge, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press,1932.
5. Rafael Trevino and Angus McBride. Rome's Enemies, Group 4, Spanish Armies, Great Britain, Reed International Books Ltd., 1986.
6. Martin Almagro-Gorbea and, Gonzalo Ruiz Zapatero. Paleoenthnology of Iberian Peninsula: State of Knowledge and Future Perspectives.
7. Antonio Atturbius. The Stones Speak.
8. Strabo. Geography, 3.3.6. ancient text.
9. Appian. Appian's Roman History Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapter 12, Cambridge, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press, 1932.
Maps and further pictures and information is on this site:
Viriato: Warrior-Chieftain of the Lusitans
Aymar, I don't think that we should split our forces so soon. Lets focus in our primary goal and only after that think of something else.
So Egypt, Greece etc. can wait. My opinion. Of course, it depends on what the others have to say.
Also, about Viriato. What exactly do you want to have in the game close to this? Lusitans? Specify, comment the text, show what should be changed, underline the importance of the lusitans etc.
Aymar, thanks for the support lad, I was joking when saying to form a new group (you can tell that by the names I have proposed for the "new group" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-smile.gif )
I really don't think there should be several "movements" (one for the barbarian, another for the Greeks, a third shall come up with requests for the Romans - "dump the Gladiators" - and someone surely shall bicker about the Easteners at some point - not to mention those who are going berserk about wardogs, flaming pigs, Xena, Hercules, DareDevil, Spiderman, Asterix or whoever else CA shall include in the game to "appeal to a broader audience).
If all of us longing for at least some level of historical accuracy in RTW, get together, we might just pull a rabbit or two out of this hat. If we don't... well, we'll have Hyksos chariots and 3rd Dynasty footmen for Egypt, not to mention Dacian Falxmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...nquisitive.gif and Chosen Ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-grin2.gif for the Celts.
Nowake, it's not a matter of "splitting forces", if there are some people willing to do the research for the respective faction, they would propably be others than those who already have gotten their feet wet with the "Barbarians".
Of course if you people decide on taking up the greater task, you should think of changing the name of the Movement... but then again it's up to you.
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-thumbsup.gif
I am sure some people remembered we had created a same 'movement' for linguistic accuracy (still CA is insinsting on using 'accented' english though) in RTW for hellenes and romans. I agree with Rosacrux that we should stay united. We should pursue our goals if we do not want RTW to go horribly wrong...
Ok, don't bite my head off. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-sad2.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
I was too eager to post something interesting. A childish aproach. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-rolleyes.gif
I'll be more specific in the future.
In fact, only today can I really start getting info.
Well, I wasn't aware. I didn't traslate the Latin... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...embarassed.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Yeap, that's what I said. Extra people...Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Sorry but, what could go more horribly wrong than now? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...nquisitive.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Well, thinking about it...
Asterix? Obélix? Ideafix raging packs?
OK, I shouldn't have asked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-grin2.gif
Iberian Celts from various sources:
Brief History:
The first to arrived in Spain were a people called the Iberians from North Africa. These people would mix with the Celts who were next to settle in the region as they migrated across Europe. Together, forming what would be considered the foundation of what would be the Spanish people. Attracted by the land's mineral wealth, the Phoenicians and then later Greek Merchants also set up a number of trade colonies along the coast. The Carthaginians as inheritors of the Phoenician Empire eventually conquered the Greek settlements in Spain to seize control of the entire Southern coast. However, the Romans saw the expansion as a threat to Rome itself. This would lead to the Second Punic War and the period of Roman influence over the Iberian Peninsula that would last for six centuries.
Though the Iberians were considered second-rate troops by both the Carthaginians and Romans, they may well have taken a lack of enthusiasm to die for their colonial masters as an indication of their true capabilities. Certainly the Iberian tribes put up a tremendous struggle against the Roman occupation for some 200 years following the overthrow of Carthaginian power in Spain.
Celts, living on the central mesetas in direct contact with the Iberians, adopted many Iberian cultural fashions, but they did not organize themselves into urban settlements until the 3rd century BC.
The Celt-Iberians were tribes of mixed Iberian and Celtic stock who inhabited an area in present north-central Spain from the 3rd century BC onward . These Celtiberians inhabited the hill country between the sources of the Tagus (Tajo) and Iberus (Ebro) rivers, including most of the modern province of Soria and much of the neighbouring provinces of Guadalajara and Teruel.
In historic times the Celtiberians were composed of the Arevaci, Belli, Titti, and Lusones. The earliest population of Celtiberia was that of the southeastern Almería culture of the Bronze Age, after which came Hallstatt invaders, who occupied the area shortly before 600 BC. The Hallstatt people were in turn subjugated by the Arevaci, who dominated the neighbouring Celtiberian tribes from the powerful strongholds at Okilis (modern Medinaceli) and Numantia. The Belli and the Titti were settled in the Jalón valley, the Sierra del Solorio separating them from the Lusones to the northeast.
The material culture of Celtiberia was strongly influenced by that of the Iberian people of the Ebro valley. Horse bits, daggers, and shield fittings attest the warlike nature of the Celtiberians, and one of their inventions, the two-edged Spanish sword, was later adopted by the Romans. To the west and north of Inland Spain developed a world that classical writers described as Celtic. Iron was known from 700 BC, and agricultural and herding economies were practiced by people who lived in small villages or, in the northwest, in fortified compounds called castros.
The warriors of Celt-Iberia enjoyed a reputation as the finest barbarian mercenary infantry in the western world. They were believed to possess the finest qualities of the Celts, savage battle lust and great physical courage, along with the steadiness and organization of the more civilized Iberians. Their reputation was such that after the rout of the Carthaginians by Scipio Africanus at the Burning of the Camps in 203, the arrival of a band of only 4,000 Celt-Iberians encouraged the Carthaginians to take the field once more.
The Celtiberians first submitted to the Romans in 195 BC, but they were not completely under Roman domination until 133 BC, when Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus destroyed Numantia. The Mediterranean way of life reached the interior only after the Romans conquered Numantia. Asturias was only pacified in 19 BC.
Weapons:
Espasa : In the third century BC, Rome fought against the Iberian Celts and their iron weapons, gaining so much respect for their adversaries’ short swords that they adopted the design as their own. The sword that eventually conquered most of the known world evolved from the Gladius Hispanicus – Spanish Sword.
Falcatas: A heavy machete-like short sword similar to a greek Kopis with a single edged forward sweeping curved blade 18-20" long.
Céltico: oval celt body shield.
Caetra: small round shield.
Soliferrum: Amongst other javelins and spears, the Iberians used a heavy javelin made completely of iron, capable of punching through shields and possibly adopted by the Romans in the form of the composite iron and wood pilum.
Appearance:
The Celts in the Carthaginian army wore traditional Celtic dress. The Iberians tended to wear white linen bordered in bright colours, and fought as everything from light infantry with javelins to a heavier form of infantry that used a very heavy javelin. The Iberians also had some of the very finest horsemen who used a thrusting spear and a small round shield, a light bronze helm, they wore the same basic colours as their countrymen who fought on foot. The Iberians used a rudimentary saddle made from padded hides and held in place by a broad cinch strap. They also used a heavy iron bit to control their horses.
Iberian troops who wore mail in most instances wore a tunic of soft leather under it, which was probably either kept in its natural colour or in some instances dyed with bright natural dyes in geometric patterns. The Iberian helmet usually had a tall conical shape with a very small crest socket at the very top center. The Iberians' heavier infantry also used the scutum, which they had adopted from the Celts.
On Cavalry:
Xenophon, considered by most as the founder of classical equitation, wrote of the Iberian horses that they had the ability to gather the hind legs under the fore, falling back on their hocks and raising the forehand, so that the belly can be seen from the front. This ability, which we now call collection, was impressive in that it allowed warhorses to be swift and agile and to stop and turn quickly in any direction. The Iberian horses and their riders undoubtedly gave Xenophon his first glimpse of classical riding. Iberian cavalry was one of the most important weapons of generals from Hannibal to Julius Caesar. The Iberian horse both shaped the way mounted warfare was conducted and was shaped by it. Its speed, agility and courage were unequaled and lent themselves to the mastery of mounted fighting. The Romans were so impressed by the Iberian Celts that after meeting them in battle they adopted both their weapons and fighting style and set up remount breeding stations for their legions in Baetica (modern Andalucia) to take advantage of the fine horses to be found there. There is also mention of mares brought from the Tagus valley region (Portugal) who were described by Pliny the Elder, a Roman cavalry officer and writer, as “fine, docile and impregnated by the west wind, (which) brought forth offspring of surprising fleetness.”
Thats a good idea. However, I really dont know who to contact for that. Besides we have to set an outline before showing the prototype to CA.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Attention...attention... gather around, form a column (huh?), at ease..
Please look at the faction info I have posted in this thread. Anybody opposing to the faction list? Do you want more factions, OR do you want less factions? SETTING THE FACTION LIST FROM THE BEGINNING IS CRUCIAL AS WE WILL STUDY ON THE SET FACTIONS.
When the faction list is confirmed by EVERYBODY, then we will move onto individual faction studies.
In short list your desired factions and ones that should be omitted. You can see the time frame of the game in the same post.
Hey, Parmenio http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Where did you got that info? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif
There were already Neolitic populations in Iberia who came from Central Europe. Way before the Celts
And I'm not refering to the Paleolitic
Actually Cebei I don't think anyone has problem with the list of factions itself, it's just the way the individual factions are being portrayed. The list looks fine to me, and I think everyone's already got thier hands full anyway.
Aymar and Nowake, watch your tongues, I'll not have this turn into a brawl http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-toff.gif
quick note:
if you want to have the banner in your sig please use the url posted by Tosa in this thread so we can stop sucking _Martyr_'s bandwith dry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/gc-yes.gif
Guys if you ever want to move this (I am content to keep it here though, it fits in either forum) could you please PM me. It will get my attention much more.
Concerning CA-staff. AFAIK, most are busy with RTW, it is nearly impossible (an understatement) to get a response from any known CA member atm.
I think that includes Richie Skinner, TheShogun and webmaster at .com; I can't say I visit .com much, but last I heard it was also a task to get a reply from him.
Anyhow, good luck. Hope you can turn some heads.
Oh well, OK then. I just dont want to see any criticisms of the factions when this ends. (ex. "why didnt we put "X"ian "Y"s?") Fine then, this brings us to the second step, which is pretty much what everybody is doing. I will have a visit to Bilkent University Library and then see what I can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Forgive me for not posting anything yet, but i have been contributing most of my knowledge to helping out the Silmarilion:TW team over in the dungeon, add to it reg work and my writting projects...right you get it I' a busy little Monk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif . Let me just report to you what i am working on right now for this little "movement" as i call it.
Not to long ago Stefen PMed a link to me that gave a pretty good outline of the germanic Military order. and i have been working on coming up with unit descriptions for a number of unit types, I dunno if Stefan is doing the same but thats what i have been working on.
Thought i would give a report seeing as how i dont make it to the Monastery much, kinda shameful seeing as how i'm a monk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...-surprised.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
Well, one of the books I have read so far had very little info about Dacians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif and the info it did have was in the wrong timeperiod (Trajan's wars and generally after 100 AD) which falls out of the timeline of Rome: Total War.
I am doing more research as time goes and so far my findings are insignificant. hopefully, I will hit a goldmine of information soon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif
I suport the re-election of bush, so I should have this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-party2.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...t_director.gif SHOO, SHOO... ...get out of this thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/angry.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Joke... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-jester.gif
I finally got time to do a bit of reading and what a waste of time Osprey's Romes Enemies 2: Gallic and British Celts would be better titled Galic Celts galore Some reasonable bits on British swords but nothing with evidence I can put here unless I find matching pictures (working on it when I have time). There was a quote from Caesar on British chariots though:
"In chariot fighting, the Britons drive all over the field hurling javelins and generally the terror inspired by the horses and the noise of the chariot wheels is sufficient to throw their opponent's ranks into disorder. Then, after makingf their way between the squadrans of their own cavalry, they [ie. the high class warriors riding in the chariots] jump down and engage the enemy on foot. In the meantime the charioteers retire a short distance...and place the chariots in such a position that their masters, if hard pressed...have an easy means of retreat...By daily training and practise they attain such proficiency that even on a steep slope they are able to control the horses at full gallop, and check and turn them in a moment. They can run along the chariot pole, stand on the yoke, and get back into the chariot as quick as lighning."
Well wasn't that a goldmine of information? The British chariots in TC were throwing javelins and then charging through enemy lines but that could be the team lack of knowledge, the limitations of the early game build, or the limitations of the game full stop. Having units dismount in the middle of a battle may not be possible at this time.
More reading and some searching for those swords when I get time.
Sounds like your running into the same problems I did frogbeastegg, still it sounds like you are getting hold of similar facts. (be sure to have a look at some of my earlier posts for us to compare findings)
I did find one site that had a graphical representation of an Iron Age sword that was found. It was almoust outside of the timeframe, it was found at a burial site and seems to be well decorated. (some weapons were created for sacrificial rituals rather than for battle)
The Kirkburn Sword Iron Age, 300-200 BC
Presumably a similar style of sword was used during the later part of the period.
EDIT: The Link has been corrected.
I have skim read the whole thread, no time to do much more. It does look like we are agreeing which is always a good thing. I have many, many pictures of swords for this era both British and otherwise, not just pictures but diagrams of how they were found, reconstructions, comparisons with other swords of similar date, evolution trees with the swords going from one type to another over the years but, and it is a big but, they are all in books and I have no way to get them on line. Without the pictures there is no point in trying to write up the information.
The picture in your link isn't working and it is labelled as a bronze statue of a seated Amun but so far that is better than the on-line pictures I have found If I can find enough swords labelled with the appropriate find numbers and names I should be able to search using them and get better results.
Ok, Frogbeastegg the link has been fixed.
*walks into empty room*
*breaks through spider webs*
helllooooooo anyone in heeeerrree?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/ht_eeeek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../ht_scared.gif
Shhhh I'm still collating a pile of historical texts...
http://www.gmxattachments.net/de....3%2ETGA
Testing if I can use my GMX-Mediacenter to host Media...
HORRAY
* Sich freut weil jetzt Internet-Freespace zu haben * http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif
I can now upload Media, Essays and other random things in my Gmx-Mediacenter and make them usebale via -Url-/url- http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...gc-builder.gif
How does the Test-Screenshot look like, it displays the "Hoghead" which is a very popular Groupformation within Germanics...
Link produced this Stefean:
Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Please consider the following reference: This session is not valid any longer (Timeout). Please close this window and announce yourself again with your GMX account. Further information will be given --> to on-line assistance or over --> the form for support.
sorry I have a very limited German vocabular http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif
Everywhere is closed here due to an unnecessary national holiday which will be followed by another unecessary religious holiday, resulting with a total of 20 days of holiday (did you know that Turkey has the highest number and workdays of holidays in the world?).
I am available for any type of assistance in the meantime.
I'll join up, if it's for a good cause http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif
damn you....Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I haven't finished my dacian description (many sources that need compiling, there's little on the net, I use mainly books), but it'll happen any time soon.
Regards
I also have been pressed with time, but will try to compile the data I found, as soon as possible.
great everyone is busy as a beehive and am sitting in a lawnchair watching and encouraging...yup.....encouraging....
How goes the resrearch guys?
Its been a while and I think we need an update http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-computer.gif
Hmm, I'd like to join, but only as a moral supporter. Don't feel like research. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
~Wiz
Just a small update - been doing some reading but found nothing useful. Still no luck with those sword pictures. Still not got much time.
I want to join, guys I can do the Mediterranean Civ (Greeks, Romans) research. Please? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Just a remark, you should better hurry, the game is going through the final artwork and polishing phase, the creative input for new/better units has to come soon or CA will not be able to put it in if they elect to do so.
Personally, I'd try to have it done until the ides of March. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
It's anoying. I'm trying to find some sica pictures (the common dacian sword, small and curved) and I can't find anything except for a small depiction on Trajan's column. Anyone of you knows a good site on stuff related to this?Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Btw, I don't think it's quite in the final stages. But they're giving us more material now with the unit descritions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/gc-yes.gif
I found one in a few seconds with google's image search: reasonable sica picture and there were a lot more results but no time to sift through themQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Really, I couldn't find that page; anyway, it won't do very much good, as the weapon you present is a modified version of the dacian weapon, only for the gladiator fights.
But thanks alot, hopes are higher now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-smile.gif Btw, congratulations for gaining some HOF's this year, it really reflects the work you've put for the community. Keep up it up, right up.
woooooosh........
*observes tumbleweeds in TK's "woooooooosh"*
~Wiz
*observes random Indians running by....*
Yup the neverending holiday ends tomorrow... I see that we got only 3-4 people doing the research... as I've predicted.. Can people post what they've found so far and for which factions?
very true, I'm still trying to recover from my birthday (last Friday)...Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
P.S.: I really liked the stuff you posted on the web, keep it up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...-guitarist.gif
Sure Give me 6000$ to build a studio, I can send you a new one every two days http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-wall.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
I'll get right on that m8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-dizzy2.gif I'm ready. I finally finished my work on the Germanic Units and carefully confirmed my Informations. The last things that are left to do for my Sector are germanic structures and Provinces. I'm sorry Monk that I didn't implent you into the work as you might have deserved...
The Following Text is the final version how germanic Units should be:
Lancemen
--- Formed by the Frydmen of Germania, who have learned to life with the icy Winters and short Summers of their Lands, these Lancemen are known for their Sacrifice on their Masters. Julius Caesar discribes them as disciplined, hard-nosed Warriors fighting in a dense formation he called a "Phalanx". Their mantall Shields, packed one at the other, indeed supplied an almost perfect Protection while their Lances belonged to the deadlyest in the Ancient World. ---
The Germanic Lancers are similar to Hellenistic Hopilites and later English Fyrds (while the Fyrds are their decendants).
“After they had overthrown the Roman cavalry with a densely packed formation, they formed their shield wall (phalanx) and attacked our first battle line from below” (Caes. BG I, 24,2: »REIECTO NOSTRO EQUITATU, PHALANGE FACTA SUB PRIMAM NOSTRAM ACIEM SUCCESSERUNT.«).
Shortly afterwards “they quickly formed their shield wall as they are used to, and repelled our sword attack” (Caes. BG I, 52,4: »AT GERMANI CELERITER EX CONSUETUDINE SUA PHALANGE FACTA IMPETUS GLADIORUM
EXCEPERUNT.«).
Caesar here discribes a Battle he had with them under Ariovistus. As you can see Jules Caesar definatly said Phalange / Phalanx and he intends that this "Phalanx" was trained, throughout he says the Shield wall was formed "quickly".
the dreadful Germanic lances that “inflict wounds from a formidable distance” (Tac. ann. I, 64: »HASTAE INGENTES AD VULNERA FACIENDA QUAMVIS PROCUL«) Germanic graves have revealed specimens of a length of 41-45 cm with lateral cut-outs If this type of thrusting lance is mentioned they are called “enormous” or “over-long lances” (Tac. ann II, 14: »ENORMIS HASTAS«; ann. II, 21: »PRAELONGAS HASTAS«). These expressions may refer to the length of the shaft and respectively to the length and width of the point. In the battle at the Angrivarian Wall (16 AD) the Imperial Guard was not able to storm the Wall because they received severe thrusts from above, and Germanicus Caesar had to withdraw them (cf. Tac. ann. II, 20: »QUIS INPUGNANDUS AGGER, UT SI MURUM
SUCCEDERENT, GRAVIBUS SUPERNE ICTIBUS CONFLICTABANTUR. SENSIT DUX INPAREM COMMINUS PUGNAM…«). The weapons that inflicted those blows from above may well have been such “enormous” and “over-long” lances.
The Germanic Lance Tacitus mentioned is a deadly Weapon with long (about 41-45 Cm) Spearheads, making the Warriors able to break almost any Armor from the Distance.
Abilities:
- Bonus against armored Enemys
- Disciplined
- Large Shield
- Bonus against Cavallary
- Good Morale
- Good Charge
Skirmishers (Light Arms)
„As long distance weapons Germanics used javelins. Each warrior carried several of them, and threw them “extremely far” as Tacitus remarks full of admiration (Tac. Germ. 6). The “framea” that Tacitus describes (Germ. 6: “They carry spears that they call frameas, with a short and narrow, but very sharp point, very practical for use. As circumstances require they fight with the same weapon at short or long range” – »HASTAS VEL IPSORUM VOCABULO FRAMEAS GERUNT ANGUSTO ET BREVI FERRO, SED ITA ACRI ET AD USUM HABILI, UT EODEM
TELO, PROUT RATIO POSCIT, VEL COMMINUS VEL EMINUS PUGNENT.«), was used as a throwing spear as well. It was about 6 foot long, had a rather small iron head, and could be used as a throwing or thrusting weapon. Some javelins had barbed heads as grave deposits reveal.“
Along with the Framea, lightly armed germanics also used the „Sasha“ or „Sax“-Sword which Tacitus doesn’t know (but is prooved through Artifact-Founds). The Sax was a thin blade which was very sharp and easy to produce, the negative fact is that it would directly break if a Combatant tried to block the enemy’s Strike.
Abilities:
Fast
Small Shield
Good Morale
Comitati Lancemen / Comitati Swordsmen
„...whom they call soldurii, the conditions of whose companionship are that they share all the conveniences of life with those to whose friendship they have devoted themselves and if anything violent happen to them, either they endure the same destiny together, or commit suicide: up to now, in the memory of men, there has never been found anyone who refused to die, upon the death of one to whose friendship he had so devoted himself,..“ – Caesar about gaulish Soldurii
„They transact no public or private business without being armed. it is not, however, usual for anyone to wear arms till the state has recognized his power to use them. Then in the presence of the council one of the chiefs, or the young man's father, or some kinsman, equips him with a shield and a spear. These arms are what the "toga" is with us, the first honour with which youth is invested. Up to this time he is regarded as a member of a household, after-wards as a member of the commonwealth. Very noble birth or great services rendered by the father secure for lads the rank of a chief; such lads attach themselves to men of mature strength and of long approved valour. It is no shame to be seen among a chief's followers. Even in his escort there are gradations of rank, dependent on the choice of the man to whom they are attached. These followers vie keenly with each others as to who shall rank first with his chiefs, the chiefs as to who shall have the most numerous and the bravest followers. It is an honour as well as a source of strength to be thus always surrounded by a large body of picked youths; it is an ornament in peace and a defence in war. And not only in his own tribe but also in the neighboring states it is the renown and glory of a chief to be distinguished for the number and valour of his followers, for such a man is courted by embassies, is honoured with presents, and the very prestige of his name ofen settles a war.“ - Tacitus
As Tacitus refers here the Germanics had a very Warlike Aritocrathy, those „Fellows“ (Comitati in Latin) where rich Landowners and/or People who have been regarded for their Noble behaviour. The Soldurii and the Comitati were identical, expecially in Belgicae and Raetia were Germanics and Gauls lived together the romans didn’t make any diffrence between them. Aslike Knights have been in the Middleages, also Comitati within the germanics had one problem: Their personal thirst for Honor and „Glamour“.
That means -> It wasn’t enough to have a sword, it must have been a beautiful and good sword. It wasn’t enough to have a Helmet, it must be a decorated Helmet
As Tacitus said: „These arms are what the "toga" is with us, the first honour with which youth is invested.“. Their Weapons and Armor had become a Symbol for their Aristocrathic-Status, expecially their Swords and the animal-shaped Helmets (see Pictures).
I combined all neccessary Details to one Picture:
Much stronger as on the previous Pictures (Drawings from a history-Book, and two aritifacts) this Picture provides a good Image of a single Comitatus. Wearing a beautiful Shirt with Ornaments, a decorated Helmet (Horsehead in this Case), a Cloak, Armor, Belts with golden Clasps, a Woolthrowser with Letherstrings (see his Knee), a good sword and a Rune-decorated Shield. A very helpful Case is that the Helmet for the Character Theoden in the Movie „Lord of the Rings“ was designed after the Image of the germanic’s Animal-Helmet, the two Pictures below show this Helmet and contain an Hyperlink to larger Images on the Internet. The Movie’s Helmet can be seen as an example, the Design for RTW’s own Comitati-Helmet would look best by beeing similar to this one.
As you’ll certainly have recognised on the Pictures the Comitati were no pure Swordsmen, identical to Knights or Samurai they fought in various organisation Types. Through there’s no place for them all they must be seperated to their main groups: Spearmen, Swordsmen and Cavallary. Making a Comitati Cavallary wasn’t sensible for Gameplay, through the germanics already have the Gastiz as their heavy Cavallary.
So I would suggest to make two Units: Comitati Lancemen and Comitati Swordsmen. While the Lancemen should be displayed as an improoved Version of the „normal“ Lancemen, with Comitati-charcteristics (similar to armored Spearmen compared to normal Spearmen in Viking Inavasions). The Swordsmen on the other Side are needed to form a counterpart against the roman Legionaires, so they need to be an Elite of Warriors.
Abilities (Spearmen)
Armored
Good Defense
Good Morale
Good Melee
Large Shield
Bonus against Cavallary
Abilities (Swordsmen)
Armored
Good Charge
Good Defense
Perfect Morale
Perfect Melee
Shield
Gastiz Cavallary
Somehow many Comitati followed „invitations“ of Warlords to fight for a reward and became Mercenaries. Called „Gastiz“, which ment Guest these Men spend most of their Lifetime in Warfare. The many succsessful Battles brought them a high social status and wellfare, resulting that they formed the most expensive but also most efficent germanic Trooptype. In the Society they were seen as the perfected Comitati, sacrificing their whole life in Combat after Tiwaz’s Prayers (In negative Effect this made them very arrogant and difficult to command). The Romans recognised the Power of the Gastiz and „invited“ them byself many times: Jules Caesar hired these Cavallary to fight in Alesia and the famous Arminius was the commander of Gastiz in roman Service. This caused that they used strongly romanised Arms and Armor, diffrently to the two lower Comitati Types.
They need no further discription, through they chare most Charcteristics with the two other Comitati types.
Abilities
Armored
Perfect Charge
Good Defense
Perfect Morale
Good Melee
Uncontrolled
For the case of the Units already created, I can confirm Barbarian Archers, Barbarian Axemen and Barbarian Cavallary for beeing Historic in sight of the Germanics. Those Units should be kept in.
-----------
The Report lacks all of it pictures which are necessary... Who wants to have the original Word-Document may please send me an Email...
What are your thoughts about that now? I think that army can defeat the romans in RTW, won't it?
That's fine Stefan,Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I sent you a PM a long time ago about this, i think a month maybe more. But you never replied or answered my question so i asumed you didn't want/need my help. oh well, i guess i'll go back to lurking in the shadows. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
btw nice info http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif
So can we* actually LIST the factions we* have done so far?
Stefan --> Germanic
we = working staff - me
Sorry Buddy, Hopefully you think well of that Things here... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
Some Extra-Info: Friedrich Giesler misunderstood the "Centeni" as some Kind of Unit, indeed it's an organisations Type. Every Region of Germania had to provide hundred young Men for a compulsed Militery Service, of course having served in the Army was seen as a great Honor.
There could be an exclusive Building called "Hundredman Eldary" produceing +2 Honor to reflect that System, or an historic Event if RTW still favors that Feature from MTW.
As far as for Geography of the Germanics, I must also against blame CA: Germanics arn't Germans Todays or 19th Century Borders of Germany and Austria-Hungary don't reflect the Germanic Territory. I'll make have to make a new Map...
Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Well The_Emperor & frogbeastegg - Doing Celtic Britons.
I think we have exhausted ourselves after posting so many facts first time around (but lately I have been remarkably busy).
Should anyone else have any useful information on the Britons that hasn't been covered already ont he previous pages of this thread please feel free to post it.
Shall we summarise and draw up possible unit types then?
Germanic --> Stefan
Celtic Britons --> The_Emperor & frogbeastegg
I am asking this because I will work on the untouched factions.
me = too busy with school to do research, so watching and encouraging from lawn chair...
Hello all I wish to join your cause If you have no objections I will add the sig to mine in an attempt to get others to change their views Tell me anything if you need help...
Consul
we'd love to have any help we can get probably the best thing you can do is just to wear the bannner in your sig to show CA the following we have...Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Hi friends http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Well this is a GREAT project but one question:
why lobbby the autheticity of one culture and not the others ?
Are you referring to the name? Europa Barbarorum or rather Europe of the Barbarians?
Well, I think we are a bit scared of a concentration upon the Roman and to a lesser degree Hellenistic (read: Successor) kingdoms, leaving the other cultures innacurately depicted. This includes Parthians, ESPECIALLY Egyptians, and all the more northernly peoples such as Germanics, Dacians and Celts.
~Wiz
I have just finished reading the last of my 'useful' books, from that you may guess how much useful info I found - none. Aside from the tiny bit I posted ages ago most of these books either had information that was blatant rubbish (woad really does make you invincible) or gave no sources/quoted no evidence so it can't be considered reliable. The few bits that did have good evidence are of no worth without the appropriate pictures to back them up. All in all, Gah Quite what I can do now I don't know, rummage about the net I suppose.
First of the new barbarian unit descriptions is up, any improvement over the old ones? Germanic tribes are not something I know much about, aside from the topknot hairdo, which is present on the new model.
Is the position for Parthians still open?
If so, I'll happily do that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
~Wiz
Is there anything that I can do to help? Just give me something to do...and I will do it for our cause...
alright here is the list of people doing what:
The groups so far:
Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax
frogbeastegg
Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO
Nowake
Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk
Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake
Who will do the Celti-Iberian research?
Parmenio
Aymar de Bois Mauri
Game accuracy information:
Cebei
Teutonic Knight
I'm sure we can see if we can set up other areas of research...
as you can see above, we are researching not one, but more than several cultures...Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Parthians are not Roman, so hence they are "barbarian", if we use the Greek term. Or even the Persian term, who saw Greeks as barbarian.
~Wiz
by definition any non Graeco-Roman is a barbarian...Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
So, you might want to contact Stefan and see if he minds setting up another category for you Eastern freaks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
Is there any research that you all wish me to do?
what do you want to do? Whatever that is, go do it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
I dont know who you all have already done, or who you need to have be done...I dont even know all that are in the Game...
Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I admit we suffer from lack of organization, but so far we have this list.
Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax
frogbeastegg
Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO
Nowake
Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk
Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake
Who will do the Celti-Iberian research?
Parmenio
Aymar de Bois Mauri
Game accuracy information:
Cebei
Teutonic Knight
Could I help with the Germanic Research? All I have to do is research the types of weapons and armour they use right?
No problem, I'll pass you what I got so far if you PN me your Email-adress...Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
-------
I think it is time to arrange that our Info reaches CA, through for getting what we want into ROME until Autumm time is simply running out.
What I think we could do is:
1. Sending PNs to the Developers active at the Org for getting them to watch what we do.
2. Sending our Information to CA's Customerservice-Email, probably they pass the Matirial to the developers.
3. Print out the whole thing an send it via Mail to CA's postal Adress.
Well, I've finished my research. I still have to finish organizing my info. I'm about 60% done. I think that a day will be enough for the rest. I hope to present it tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
It's a somewhat long post so I don't want to have to edit it to correct. Please wait one more day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...embarassed.gif
I made something that follows Psycho thread on gauls. But I firstly made it in romanian, so I have to translate it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...-2thumbsup.gif
OK. Just an update. Good news and bad news.
Good news: I have the text 99% complete. Just correcting a few grammar mistakes and improving English.
Bad news: I can't work on it now. I will have it ready in a few hours.