The Complete Total War Unit Guide

The happy test results for Carls Versus Landsmenn in the killing of armoured spearmen or proof froogy is not completely insane. :D

First the set-up. Steppesinland05 in spring on normal difficulty so no bonuses/penalties for either side. Valour 0 and no upgrades. AI has the spears, I have the carls/landsmenn. Spears are always in their optinal 4 ranks because the AI is smart like that. Carls/landsmenn are always in their optimum 2 ranks because I'm smart like that. :p AI is defending so it sits there, I march head on and the units always charge each other and meet perfectly aligned. I love it when the AI plays ball :handball: After deploying the Vikings time is set to maximum acceleration and left there since I don't have much time.

EDIT: Screenshots removed to make the space easier to navigate.

Analysis thingy
The defeat for the carles can be discounted as an anomoly, no idea what happened there as the battle went the same as usual until they ran off. Cowards :p It is clear from the results that the landsmenn always lost fewer men, the kill counts are about equal except in two battles. In one battle the carles lost and so this is discounted, the second one gives the carles a killcount of 94 which is unusually high but will not be discounted as higher than average killcounts do happen from time to time.

If anyone really wants the boredom factor of watching a set of nearly identical replays I can put together a set to prove these results are real with no bias etc.

PS:I presume I got the same general 5 times in a row because I kept hitting replay battle rahter than working my way through the menus each time. Odd Weather Hat is a wonderful name



As far as the missile ranges go it is the same as usual but I can't get reliable pictures of it as I need to be pretty far away to fit both units in view and then you can't see what is happening. I shall just follow majority opinion if enough people agree with Kraxis' results.

Added in-depth explanation of spear charging to the appendix. Copied my post from the topic on this subject.

Can't test the ranges in Shogun because I can't find the ironing board map, I have both MI and the most recent map pack but no ironing board. No flat map=someone gets the advantage of height because the AI is too smart not to park on a hill. Bah Humbug

Now onto shield number bonus effective thing that Kraxis raised.

EDIT:And the shield modifers etc are now written in. Think I got them all.

I've done some extensive testing and found out a few things.
nr.1 Militia sergeants are one of the best counter (pricewise) to heavily armoured polearms (hailbarders and CFK) with armour upgrades. It's wort noticing considering that those unit barely got any counters at all.

Nr.2 To get the wrap effect on non-spear units (haven't tried it on spearunits but I think it's the same there),using swordsmen or simular, in a frontal charge, you'll need to but the unit in hold formation until the unit have hitted eachother, then put them back on thier regular form (attack at will??). If you don't do it then all units will simply run to the center during the charging and therfore ruining the wrap-effect. They don't get a wrap-effect even if they are put in one long line. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif

The wrap effect is small but noticeable and gives a slight combat advantage.

Appologies in advance if this sounds rude Ironside, it has been a very long Christmas, New Year is still looming and I hate this time of year. Also I am still tired http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

What you are doing is a small but common error that I have been correcting for a very long time indeed. This time I shall make it unmissable for the benefit of everyone reading this thread and in the hope I will not have to do this again:

Double clicking on a enemy unit orders your unit to run not charge All you need to do is single click and they will charge on their own when they get close enough - this will give the unit the full charge bonus without wasting energy or disrupting formation KEEP YOUR TWITCHY FINGER OFFF THE MOUSE BUTTON No I don't say that in the unit guide - that is because it is basic level tactics and covered in my beginners guide and a hundred or so posts by me I can only repeat myself so much

And there you go, you are double clicking the enemy and your unit will run towards it and lose formation. Single click the unit and take your hand off the mouse and watch as the unit marches up close and then charges without losing formation or anything. Go into a custom battle and zoom in to watch your unit closely and you will see the difference between running and charging.

Roll on January 4th when I can enjoy the winter again.

EDITED to sound somewhat less like I was trying to lynch poor Ironside

I would like to comment on the pikemen, they are excellent for pushing back bridge assaulters. Combined with some artillary, arquebusters and some albalesters, 2 basic pikemen units is all you need to beat a much larger army. One could also urgue that armenians/ghulams/mamluk are medium cavalry, instead of heavy.

I've always thought that you needed to run for a while before charging to get the full charge bonus. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif I think they even state that in the tutorial (that I made when the game was brand new. When was it, 2 years ago?), that mission whith the charging knights. I knew that the unit charges of it's own but thought it wouldn't give full bonus.

But running does only destroy the formation faster during the charging phase not before.

And some more testing proved that running is a as good as not changing the formation, walking gives you the wrap-effect while putting the unit on hold formation during half the charge and then put the unit back on engage at will gives the best results, but demands a little bit more timing. I've got the results but I will only post them on demand.

We all have our bad days, no harsh feelings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

The feature was in Shogun too, I spend a couple of years running samurai around when I could have left them to walk Boy did I feel stupid when I found the feature in MTW and also found it applied to Shogun Small wonder that my samurai were always tired quickly I remember the tutorial telling you to make the knights run but I can't remember much else about that tutorial because I haven't played it in ages. Where I got this little bit of information from I don't remember but I think it may have been the manual or official guide, I shall take a look.

It is supposed to work thus: The unit marches towards their target and breaks into a charge on their own accord when they get enough space for the run-up to reach their full bonus. If the target doesn't move at all they will definitely reach the full bonus. However if the target is heading towards them rapidly they may not have enough space to reach full speed. Most of the time, for what I can tell by casualty counts etc in game, they do reach the full bonus. The times when they don't often involve fast units like cavalry closing at a gallop with your unit or ordering them to attack when they are already very close to the target. But that is only watching kill counts, not looking at the logfile etc.

As for the test results, well how complicated are they? If they are quite simple post away, if not I don't need another headache at the moment That is unless someone else wants to see them, in which case post away.



Fragony
Thanks, adding to the general pike section.

Brillant guide in fact it is excellant just a thought there is no mention of ships they are unit would be handy to know certain things which i bet we all have missed or never copped keep up the good work.

Ships don't count as units for the same reason assassins and spies don't count - they never get on the battlefield. Point taken though, I'll see if I can knock together an appendix for ship stats.

Ok I'm adding the results now. Notice that I did only write up the results of my losses. I thought it would be enough.
The units: Me= valor 2 CMAA with 1 weapon upgrade and bronze armour. AI= valor 2 halbardiers with silver armour. On normal. Both unit usually never routed before 50+ losses

All results below are with the 2 line row
Walking to the enemy:
35
31
36
35
34
Average: 34.2

This is about the most stable results I got.

Running
40
55 loss
38
27
56 loss
56 loss
Average: 45.33

Running in hold formation to drop it about halfway through the charge
28
48
19
38 loss (I was vinning this one but he killed my general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/shock.gif )
22
32
42
31
28
Average: 31.25
I didn't add the results from the loss here because it would been higher so the average is slightly higher.

I didn't time the charge exactly wich probably explains the somewhat random values.

Walking the rest same as above.
39
21
44
36
29
Average: 33.8

Running in hold formation and letting the charge hit you before you change to engage at will

31
42
58 loss
49 loss
27
Average:41.4

Same explaination as above. You lost more men in the charge doing this witch affected the fight negativly.

Used starting formation
36
52 loss
40
52 loss
48
Average: 45.6
Our measurrement on how effective these changes are.

Starting formation and dubble clicked behind the enemy. Gave a slight flank-effect thanks to that the enemy moved.
47
23
7 I'm not sure what happened here, the halbardiers dropped like flies.
42
42
Average: 32.2
Talk about dragging down the average.

Edit: spelling

Froggy...

I never change the formation of the units when I test them. You took the Cerls and Landsmenn and put them in 2 ranks, the most effective. But when you do that you run he 'risk' that some of them might or might not flank the spears. That is too much of a variation if they don't compared to if they do. Thus I find it much better test the units in vanilla form, there they will not flank.

Who knows, maybe your Landsmenn were better at getting around the flanks?

Great work frogbeastegg http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

Congrats on an excellent guide, it is truly complete http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/read.gif And looong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

That headache is now a migrane complete with flashing lights and nausia. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif

I shall have to give up on this statistics fest - I got up to the smiley in Ironside's post before my eyes crossed over. I have been trying to read it all day but I don't manage to get any further and then the formation testing with swords/axes comes back with a vengance. Of course the range issue is still open as well. I just don't have the time, energy or ability to sort all this out - I write and think in real terms not all those numbers and trying to force myself to do that takes a lot of time and effort, and the result is never quite right. It would take me months to sort out these 3 issues - months.

To me a charge bonus is what you get when your units wave their weapons above their heads and sound that little trumpet they carry before running for a few seconds, not a bunch of possibilites with different efficiencies as Ironside is trying to demonstrate. A range is what you get when you open fire, not a number in an editor so when you can open fire you are in range. If something opens fire before another unit type and does so consistantly in many, many battles regardless of who controls it and on flat terrain then to me that is a shorter range. And the idea of testing units in a formation that is not their best one is, to me, semi rediculous because testing under non-battlefield conditions is useless as it is based on something that will not happen. There is no point in testing something in idealised situations because things happen very differently in a proper battle, and in the end it is in battle that all this counts. Marching two units head on in their optimal formations does count (just) as a battle because that is what you do when you don't use subtle tactics. Of course all of this is useless for solving the three problems here.

This kind of stuff requires scientific style testing (ie with samples of at least 100 battles, proper notes and some real analysis with statistics etc) and I don't have the time to try and force my mind to work like that. I have a lot of other stuff to do, in addition to all that I have a web version of the beginner's guide to write that I didn't intend doing because the people who were supposed to be doing it have not contacted me in months even when I message them. Wonderful because I only know how to do basic HTML stuff that works on my hard drive, not the internet. I am beyond tired and that never helps my feeble number skills. Also being sick because of relatives force feeding me mince pies and other stuff that upsets my stomach doesn't help

For further proof of my non aptitude towards this kind of thing look at the one major thing that is missing from this guide, the one thing you would expect to see - a guide to how those unit statisics work. I give out the stats but nothing is said on what they mean or how they work. Suprised no one has mentioned that.

An appendix with ship stats I can do in several days with a lot of work in the editor finding stats and glaring at the numbers until they hold still for me to read. Scientifically testing ranges I can do with a couple of weeks of work. Scientifically testing axes/swords against armoured spears I can do with all the fancy things like mean medium and mode if you give me a month and a calculator. Er and a dictonary with a definition of medium and mode because I can never remember what those two are Finding out about the different types of charge and whether or not running is important to getting the full bonus I could do in a month maybe. I can't do all of them at once, especially not while sorting the other additions to this guide and the beginner's guide (which has sprung back to life when I thought it was finally dead), stumbling around with basic HTML webpages, and doing everything else I do - I am only one person and not some kind of oracle.

So I guess what I am trying to say is congratulations, you got me :waves white flag: I shall do the ships. Additions etc like Fragony's will still be sorted but issues like range can be argued amongst yourselves. I shall keep reading and if anyone manages to come up with a finalised and well proven theory that I can understand I shall include it, but at the moment this is so far above my head I can barely see it. Of course getting me to understand it is the hard part and I can't explain in a guide something I don't understand myself. The shield modifer thing was about my limit.

I will add that both the carls and landsmenn flanked equally and that the test was fair because both units behaved exactly the same but there are no figures etc to back that up so it is completely useless and a waste of time. I suppose I could bundle together a large pack of replays so others can see but I don't have the time. There is probably some number in the stats files that controls a units flanking potential etc. But basically in froggy speak they looked the same, deployed the same, fought the same, acted the same, flanked the same, therefore they are the same. If you zoomed out a little so you couldn't see the weapons you couldn't tell the difference between the carls and the landsmenn, so similar were their fighting styles and flanking. Axes killed more armoured spears in battle after battle and have done so since I got VI, therefore they are better at it or there is another use for swords against armoured spears that makes them fight more efficently. I haven't found a new tactic for the swords that makes them better than axes against armoured spears but then I don't know everything.

And that was as concise as always http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

Does the Green_generals command also give the AI green generals when one has died, or is it only the player that suffers a wet-behind-the-ears replacement? This will affect whether I use it or not: I like to play on a level playing field. Thanks for any information.

Most of the cheats and command lines affect both the AI and the player, green generals is one such command line. I shall add a note about that in the appendix.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Dec. 27 2003,11:35)]Double clicking on a enemy unit orders your unit to run not charge All you need to do is single click and they will charge on their own when they get close enough - this will give the unit the full charge bonus without wasting energy or disrupting formation KEEP YOUR TWITCHY FINGER OFFF THE MOUSE BUTTON ... Single click the unit and take your hand off the mouse and watch as the unit marches up close and then charges without losing formation or anything.

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Maybe Ironside had played the battle tutorial (voiced by the incomparable Sean Pertwee) which tells us to do exactly that - double-click to charge. Try the tutorial again and see

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Frankymole @ Jan. 04 2004,13:37)]Maybe Ironside had played the battle tutorial (voiced by the incomparable Sean Pertwee) which tells us to do exactly that - double-click to charge. Try the tutorial again and see

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Yes, I remember that advice in the battle tutorial.

Sean Pertwee--

I noted his name in the game credits. The voice seemed somewhat familiar... I wondered if he was related to Jon Pertwee, who played (3rd) Dr. Who.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Dec. 31 2003,16:51)]I shall have to give up on this statistics fest - I got up to the smiley in Ironside's post before my eyes crossed over.

This kind of stuff requires scientific style testing (ie with samples of at least 100 battles, proper notes and some real analysis with statistics etc) and I don't have the time to try and force my mind to work like that.

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I know that everyone here wants to help Froggie produce the best possible guide, but I'm not sure she'll ever finish it
if everyone expects it to be absolutely "perfect" ("perfect" in the sense that it meets some high scientific or academic mark).

Usefulness and timeliness are more important than perfection.

When the guide is ready, I'll help put it into pdf and other formats to make it more accessible.

A belated Happy Yule to all

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/santa.gif

Ships added, cheat and command line section altered to say what affects the AI. If anyone knows what the ship stats stand for in more detail now is your chance to show off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

According to some documentary I saw years ago on the making of Cadfael Sean Pertwee is the son of the one from Doctor Who. He was the original Hugh Barringah, undersheriff of Shropshire in Cadfael which is why the voice was nigglingly familiar to me. Cadfael was made in the Uk and shown on ITV, but it is available on DVD in America and not in the UK. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif I loved that series - medieval mystery solving with a monk and a lug in armour

Charging is a long, long debate that stretches waaaay back to the dark mists of the days after MTW was first released. Um, anyway trying to keep this short there was some investigation triggered by the fact there are 3 speeds for each unit, walking, running and charging but you could only order two speeds, meaning that one had to be automatic. The end result was that you order a march by single clicking, a run by double clicking and a charge is automatic when the unit is in range. Therefore the tutorial is either wrong or dumbing down, I used to double click to charge myself before I was convinced otherwise by the thing I read. I don't even remember which forum it was on, this one or .com. The records don't exactly go back that far on either forum and anyway several years worth of posts add up to a lot of searching I shall keep an eye out for where I got it from and if I find it I will post it. Until then proof is in the way units charge automatically when marched into range.

Hi Froggy et al,

The original 'you don't need to run to get charge bonus' hint that I saw came from a post in here from GilJaySmith, one of the CA devs. It was way back in the dim and distant past, and I have no idea what topic it was hidden in. But it was definitely there. It is at odds with what the tutorial suggests, but that is definitely how it is supposed to work.

Note to Froggy - Cadfael series one is scheduled for DVD release in the UK on 15/3/04, at a price of £11.99.

Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (RJV @ Jan. 12 2004,12:08)]Hi Froggy et al,

The original 'you don't need to run to get charge bonus' hint that I saw came from a post in here from GilJaySmith, one of the CA devs. It was way back in the dim and distant past, and I have no idea what topic it was hidden in. But it was definitely there. It is at odds with what the tutorial suggests, but that is definitely how it is supposed to work.

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That is slowly pricking at my memory....I remember the post very slightly....but was that where I first saw it? It does sound about right, that must have been it. I shall hit the search function and try looking for GilJaySmith's old posts, doubt the archives go back that far but maybe....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Note to Froggy - Cadfael series one is scheduled for DVD release in the UK on 15/3/04, at a price of £11.99.

Cheers.

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Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif Excellent news I had seen it appear on Amazon but at the significantly more expensive price of £29.99, down from £39.99. £11.99 sounds much more cash friendly

Hi Froggy,

That price was from Play (www.play.com), but DVDPlus are doing it for £11.87.

Cheers.

Konnichiwa,

Konnichiwa,

Everything regarding hand to hand combat relies on statistics. Meaning that the outcome of batch A can differ from batch B under the same conditions.

What I (think to) know about charge, based on what I saw and am told:

-it can be seen as an extra bonus killing. It lasts only a few moments.
-more momentum means more charge. Ukin=0.5 * m * v^2 where m is the mass of the moving kight and v its speed. More mass increases Ukin and thus charge, but v is more important as it's quadratic. The heavier and especially the faster an object is, the higher Ukin. Think of a bullet: it doesn't weigh much, but thanks to the very high speed it inflicts damage.
-What GilJay said, should be right. But I doubt you'll notice much extra killing.
-Longjohn2, another CA coder once said: charge is built up. You have to run for a few seconds to maximise it.
-units have 3 speeds: walk, run and charging (fast running).
-This game, just like STW WE, has autocharge. Which means that when a unit walks and is ordered to attack another unit, it will keep walking until it's at a certain distance. It starts charging then. This distance is set in the unit stat: engagement_treshold.
-There is no manual way to make a unit run at charging speed. It only does so when ordered to attack a unit and when within range.
-Cavalry has an engagement_treshold of 2,000. I recall that this was the maximum possible value in STW and I guess it still is in MTW.
-This distance isn't the optimum one, not when starting from walk anyway.
-The knightunit has to be running before the autocharge is triggered to obtain the best results. 2000 is about 0.5*lenght of a tile, make sure that the knight unit is running when the distance between target and him is a bit larger than that.
-Don't run around all the time as fatigue will kick in and that will decrease performance.
-Make sure that the path between the knight and target is clear: no other units (friend nor foe), no trees, no piles of bodies and don't issue new commands to the unit. Any bit of influence will decrease the momentum.

A bad executed charge kills only 1 at best, a good charge up to 10+ and instant rout (depending on what charges what).

Running isn't required to get charge, but doing so will likely give a better charge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ Jan. 17 2004,19:10)]Konnichiwa,

Konnichiwa,

Everything regarding hand to hand combat relies on statistics. Meaning that the outcome of batch A can differ from batch B under the same conditions.

What I (think to) know about charge, based on what I saw and am told:

-it can be seen as an extra bonus killing. It lasts only a few moments.
-more momentum means more charge. Ukin=0.5 * m * v^2 where m is the mass of the moving kight and v its speed. More mass increases Ukin and thus charge, but v is more important as it's quadratic. The heavier and especially the faster an object is, the higher Ukin. Think of a bullet: it doesn't weigh much, but thanks to the very high speed it inflicts damage.
-What GilJay said, should be right. But I doubt you'll notice much extra killing.
-Longjohn2, another CA coder once said: charge is built up. You have to run for a few seconds to maximise it.
-units have 3 speeds: walk, run and charging (fast running).
-This game, just like STW WE, has autocharge. Which means that when a unit walks and is ordered to attack another unit, it will keep walking until it's at a certain distance. It starts charging then. This distance is set in the unit stat: engagement_treshold.
-There is no manual way to make a unit run at charging speed. It only does so when ordered to attack a unit and when within range.
-Cavalry has an engagement_treshold of 2,000. I recall that this was the maximum possible value in STW and I guess it still is in MTW.
-This distance isn't the optimum one, not when starting from walk anyway.
-The knightunit has to be running before the autocharge is triggered to obtain the best results. 2000 is about 0.5*lenght of a tile, make sure that the knight unit is running when the distance between target and him is a bit larger than that.
-Don't run around all the time as fatigue will kick in and that will decrease performance.
-Make sure that the path between the knight and target is clear: no other units (friend nor foe), no trees, no piles of bodies and don't issue new commands to the unit. Any bit of influence will decrease the momentum.

A bad executed charge kills only 1 at best, a good charge up to 10+ and instant rout (depending on what charges what).

Running isn't required to get charge, but doing so will likely give a better charge.

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:Reads post, eyes glaze over. Re-reads several times carefully but eyes still glaze over: Ok if I am understanding this correctly the autocharge value is set in the stat files but is not exactly optimum. Therefore you don't quite reach full speed and full bonus if you leave it to autocharge. However if you run you lose formation slightly and therefore lose the flanking bonus you can usually pick up by staying in formation. That is unless you run and use hold formaiton to keep good formation until just before the charge hits.

So a choice between 1)getting both full charge bonus and flanking attemps with a lot of micromanagement 2)Getting full charge bonus by running but losing your chance to get some men around the flanks due to men bunching together 3)getting some men around the flanks but not getting full charge bonus. Of course that assumes I understood all of that corrctly and combined it with the earlier posts on this subject without doing the proverbial 1+1=5.

As the smiley says: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/confused.gif If I got that right then I get the 'pleasure' of rewriting parts of the beginner's guide to list all three options and their pros and cons. At least there was nothing about how to charge in this guide, only that you should charge a lot

And now my customary saying in situations like this: I hate statisics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/gc-yes.gif

Printable guide now available and other such hype. MS Word format, 105 pages, up to date for the 12th January, pictures all present and correct if a little fuzzy.

Now the PDF begins...:searches through thread to find out who offered to convert it: Ah yes, contacting Hajduk now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Jan. 18 2004,17:22)]Printable guide now available and other such hype. MS Word format, 105 pages, up to date for the 12th January, pictures all present and correct if a little fuzzy.

Now the PDF begins...:searches through thread to find out who offered to convert it: Ah yes, contacting Hajduk now.

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I can convert your printable guides to PDFs as well if you need additional help with that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Jan. 20 2004,10:51)]I can convert your printable guides to PDFs as well if you need additional help with that.

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Well Hadjuk has agreed to do this guide and I am not doing anything on it myself, but if you want to ask if he needs help you can do. He may welcome some help. The beginner's guide has no one wroking on it but does it really ned a PDF? It is very light on pictures after all.

Thanks for the offer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/ht_bow.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Jan. 18 2004,12:22)]Printable guide now available and other such hype. MS Word format, 105 pages, up to date for the 12th January, pictures all present and correct if a little fuzzy.

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Where is it Where is it?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-party2.gif

I stuck an advert in the front of the guide but forgot to duplicate it properly here. Ahem:

A printable version of this guide is now available in MS Word format. If you do not have Word then you can download this free Word reader to view the document. The guide is 105 pages long and has all the pictures etc present in this web guide, although some picture quality has been lost in the transition. Please note that the guide is correct and up to date as of 12th January 2004 and will not be updated at any point. This on line guide will remain the most current version. To get a copy follow this link and look for ‘printable unit guide.doc’ by frogbeastegg. Make sure you disable any download accelerators you may have before following the link or the link may not work correctly.

I should probably put this on the front page as well.

This might be a little late, but here is the relevent longjohn post on how charge works: Charge bonus

Thank you, that is a lot like the post I was thinking of, possibly even the post. Jousting fields - no wonder I didn't find it when searching

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Charge bonus isn't directly related to charge speed, though possibly there could be an indirect effect. Let me explain what happens with charging soldiers, as maybe that'll help you.
A unit that has been charging for a short while (second or two) counts as charging. It also builds up some impetous based on how long it's been charging (though I think it's capped at around 3 secs). When a charging soldier hits an enemy he fights him. If he wins (pushes him back or kills hum), and doesn't suffer a push back himself, he carries on moving forwards, and fights anymore enemy he hits (including ones that he's just hit and pushed back). Each time he fights he loses a little impetus, and when he runs out he doesn't count as charging anymore, and has to fight in the normal way. The result of all this is that a charging soldier can fight (and maybe kill) several enemies in a short period of time. I guess that in some cases units with a higher charge speed could hit more enemy in a given time, and do more damage.
In general though it's a little tricky balancing infantry vs cavalry factors. Cavalry tend to be more powerful in the charge against infantry due to the bonues they get for pushing them back. OTOH once the charge is over, infantry do better than cav at the save factors, as inf are smaller, so more can fight on a given frontage.
Really you just have to do a lot of experimentation to get the effect you want.

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It sounds to me as if leaving the unit to charge on its own should be sufficient but the other methods of charging mentioned earlier in this topic still have uses. Is the enemy is close then run, if you have time to micromanage then run and use the formation switches, if you have space but little time just walk. No need to alter the beginner's guide then, all this is beyond beginner level and way into intermediate, or possibly advanced. Longjohn may be talking about modding when he says "Really you just have to do a lot of experimentation to get the effect you want" but I think that sums this up nicely.

Achieving maximum charge effect is also an advanced issue, but it was discussed earlier in this thread so I did a time vs distance calculation on countercharging cavalry to see if they had enough time to get to maximum charge effect. The fastest cav have a top speed of 24 when charging, and most cav have top speed = 22 which is almost as high. The transition to this top speed is almost instantaneous. Since speed 6 = 1.68 meters/sec, speed 24 = 6.72 m/s. The proximity distance where cavalry will break into a charge is range 1500 = 30 meters, and you will have 1/2 that distance, 15 meters, against an equally fast countercharging unit to achieve full effect. For the fastest units in this game, that's 2.2 seconds. This is enough time for the unit to be considered as charging and thus get the charge bonus, but not quite enough to get the maximum impetus (momentum) that the can be achieved. If the impetus starts building up after the 1 or 2 seconds required to be considered charging, then these units won't have much impetus when they meet. I don't know when the impetus starts building up, and longjohn's post is ambiguous in that regard.

To my mind, what's really important about charging in mtw/vi v2.01 is getting a clean shot at the target unit with as many men as possible contacting enemy men immediately. I find that lots of micromanaging of units in multiplayer reduces my winning chances because other units get neglected and end up standing around doing nothing. Wide cav formation is good, but not if you clip an enemy unit and your charging unit stops moving forward. This isn't an issue in mtw v1.1 due to the swipe where apparently units were getting the charge bonus if the unit leader was running ahead without engaging. In v2.01, the unit leader stops and fights if any of his men engage which also makes disengaging more difficult.

frogbeastegg,

I did some charge tests online with Tosa last night. While this discussion of charge mechanics appears to be logical, there is still something we don't understand. The test showed without question that cav charging a stationary unit is much more effective when it enters the charge on the run rather than from a walk. The cav would appear to have enough time to maximumize the charge parameters from a walk, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Either that or there is an undocumented effect. So, double click or ctl-r at some point before your unit commences the charge is the preferred method for charging, and I guess that's what people have been saying based on their playing experiences.

Was it the same for infantry or haven't you tried them? So stats suggest one thing but it doesn't always work out like that in testing...logic would dictate (at least my logic) that the autocharge thing is set up so the unit starts to charge with more than enough time to get the full bonuses etc, and a little bit extra to spare so the charge is still reached against a unit rushing to meet yours. Setting up autocharge so it doesn't do its job seems more than a bit silly. However this is one of those numbery things and logic never enters numbery issues http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

It is at times like this I am glad I called the beginner's guide the beginner's guide If I just called it the MTW guide or something I would have to sort all this stuff out and include discriptions of all this charge malarky...fortunately I can just file it under advanced and refer people onwards to other sources with more understanding than me - let people collect their own headaches.

:hits SP to try a few tests again:

Well that was a bit inconclusive. Sometimes running made a big difference, most of the time it made no real difference on on one occasion it did far worse. Setup was feudal knights V2 against FMAA V2 steppes05, temporate, summer, normal. Of course that was against the AI and we all know how useful it is at standing still and dying when you want it to. The battle always cut off the instant the enemy routed so the charge was only lasting for about 2 seconds...if the battle had been a bit longer a more conclusive difference could have been visible. So all in all that wasn't worth much as proof for anything.

So what have we got when all this is totted up? Running makes a cav charge a bit (lot?) better? but not so much difference for infantry? or big difference for infantry? but walking and autocharging is better sometimes? and to get better benefit out of running before charging you need to hold formation and then switch shortly before impact? so it is a balance between results and micromanagement? but any differences are less likely to be seen in SP? and in the end it doesn't matter how fast you are going if you don't get a good shot at the enemy (certain). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-dizzy2.gif

Konnichiwa frogbeastegg san,

We haven't tried infantry yet. But my guess is that we won't see difference there because it moves much slower but has the same treshold. So it will have enough time (whether that is directly related or black box related) to build up max charge/impetus.

About treshold for cavalry: unless I'm looking at a modded Excel sheet, some cavalry have 1500 while others have 2000. There doesn't seem to be a relation between faster cavalry and higher treshold.

What blurs this tests, and about any test in TW games, is statistics. Run the same thing 10 times under exactely the same conditions and you'll see completely different results. Doing one or two tests and then making conclusions doesn't make rules set in stone. Doing these things under non standard conditions (fatigue, flanking, not flat maps, nearby friendly units giving morale support, different formations, AI sneakily doing different things and so on) only makes it harder to say something.

A charge executed by the books (if there is a way to do this) can result in 1 or 10+ kills. Yuuki and me have seen 1 kill by making the best charge, but most were 10++. Best was some 17 and instant rout while the knights lost nothing. I haven't seen such results when a standard charge is made. This is not to say that it's impossible, just less likely.

I would say that already running before the cavalry starts charging increases the chance to get a good charge.

This example may help illustrate how I think it may work:

0 secs charging 10% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 3
1 sec charging 30% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 5
2 secs charging 60% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 7
3 secs charging 100% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 10.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]and to get better benefit out of running before charging you need to hold formation and then switch shortly before impact

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I expect that this would rather have a negative than a positive effect, as it counts as a command and disrupts the focus of charging, maybe not. Mantaining hold is a bad idea too. I think it could happen that the unit falls better on the flanks of the target. And that kills too. But it's quite some micromanagement and you may need all the time to manage the 15 other units.

In SP, I am definitley likely to double-click cav for a charge and single-click infantry and rely on them to get the charge. Something about the distance cav charge at looks wrong, too short, and I asm pretty sure I get better results with cave if I double click.

Do they award a Pulitzer Prize for medieval guides?

Nice work, It was not only a help but a good read in many aspects. I have been absent from these forums and the game for almost a year now. In a way I am having to re-learn it.What is this hear of a viking invasion expansion? :)(like i said "absent for almost year")

Keep your swords sharpened and your minds sharp,

JS,

frogbeastegg,

The MP charge test was v0 chiv knights, v0 knights templar and v0 feudal knights all in 20x2 formation vs v0 cmaa in 15x4 except for the templar test where the cmaa were in 12x5. Two runs and two walks with the chiv, one each with the templar and one each with the feudal So the total number of charges is 4 running and 4 walking which is not a lot, and not enough to draw iron clad conclusions. However, the running cav was able to get 10+ charge kills each time and immediately rout the cmaa while the walking cav was not able to rout the cmaa during the charge. I wouldn't say there was a big difference on average in charge kills between running and walking into the charge. A rough estimate using the results of this test would be 12 kills for running and 8 kills for walking, but more tests would be required on a unit that didn't rout to get an accurate number. The converging pattern the cav takes seems to be the same whether running or walking into the charge, but I'll have to look at it again to be sure. I have the replay if you want to look at it.

I did see one thing in this test that appears conclusive. In every case, save one of the templar charges, the cmaa started out as impetuous morale, dropped to steady when the cav got within 3600 range and then dropped to uncertain when the cav commenced the charge at 1500. This negative effect on morale of cav charging inf was mentioned by longjohn, but I had never seen it in a test until now. V0 cmaa start with a morale of 4, vi v2.01 gives them +2 in MP and two flanks covered adds +4 which brings them to 10 which is enough for the unit to be impetuous. A drop from impetuous to uncertain would require a change of at least -10 morale, and I think the first drop at 3600 range is -4. It is possible to set up tests that accurately measure various morale effects, but they are quite laborous to conduct.

I would have read your guide, but so far I have not been able to successfully download it.

I just wrote a long reply and the dratted thing got deleted Excuse me while I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-furious3.gif Ahem, to type it all again.

TosaInu The infantry charging on hold formation was something Ironside said back on page 4.

Statistics always get in the way of a good test, anyone who says otherwise is a maths teacher

squippy Cav charge does look a bit short sometimes.

Rising_General Politza prize? I could change my title to 'award winning amphibian' instead of 'exploding amphibian'. I had to relearn Shogun after more than a years absence, an enjoyable process. I am sure I used to be better with no-dachi but I think my yari tactics are better.

Puzz3D sent you a PM with my email for that replay. I am sure you will find an error or two when you go through the guide, when you do let me know so I can fix it. Charging is not really mentioned in this guide except as something to do a lot, it is the beginner's guide with all the discussion on how to charge. Strangely in the 6 months it has been available this discussion never appeared.

I did a few tests just now chiv knights V0 against CMAA V0 same map etc as before. Only 2 instant routs out of 5 battles, one had more than 18/80casualties for the enemy. Not nearly enough to be conclusive but interesting enough.

"V0 cmaa start with a morale of 4, vi v2.01 gives them +2 in MP" multi-player stats are different? Is it possible to finagle a full list of the differences? It could explain a lot...


Lets see if I can sum this up neatly in a way everyone agrees with:
1.Charging is good.
2.You cannot order a charge, only walk and run. Charge is automatic.
3.Infantry can handle their own charge in all aspects, no need for running because they are slow enough to get full bonus from the autocharge.
4.Slow cav like katas will probably also reach full bonus without needing to run.
5.Medium speed cav can either run before the charge or not, it does help but not always.
6.Fast cav probably benefit most from running before the charge as they cover the preset charge distance faster and therefore have less time to build speed.
7.When in actual battle all this matters little, just do what you think you need to. Charging up hill is never that effective even if you run, walking to a flank attack is not fast enough to be effective. Use your brains and work to fit the situation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../ht_charge.gif

If the person who left a comment for me in the copy of one of my stories that ended up on the KOTOR unofficial website is reading this, well I found your comment on my guides and thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Why do I get the feeling I probably missed something while retyping all this? If I did I will just have to add it later.

frogbeastegg,

I read your unit guide section on mtw/vi cav, and I think it's fine. The important tactics are covered and clearly explained as are the correct roles of the various unit types. I see too many players online relying on obscure game engine mechanics to get an edge by tipping the dice in their favor. I never saw top players like Crandaelon in MTW (won two mtw 1v1 tourneys back to back) or RageExe in STW do that. They are disciplined in using good basic tactics and use their units economically. They beat you by having their last unit in the right place at the right time to deliver the fatal blow while your last unit is caught out of position, and they are not fast click artists. I think that's the right approach to playing the game at the highest level, and your guide has all the info that's needed to play at that level. Very impressive piece of work


The one real game mechanic that couldn't be overlooked in MTW v1.1 multiplayer because it was so effective was the "swipe", but it has been removed in VI v2.01. The +2 morale in MP is a global shift and just allows games to be played at lower florins. The biggest game mechanic difference between VI SP and MP is the absence of battlefield upgrades in MP.

I watched the replay, interesting but it supports the 'just get on with playing the game' statement - no one style of charging was constantly massively superior. Running may have had a bit of an edge overall, but as you said in the email accompanying the replay that is what cav are usually doing anyway. So minor crisis over - it doesn't matter how you charge your cav so long as you charge them.

I have never seen the appeal of using game mechanics to gain the advantage, winning because you used your army correctly is much more satisfying.

If this guide has all the information needed to play at a high level than 1)I am writing above my skill level and 2)need to read it myself. Good result, means I integrated all those bits people contributed correctly. :D Time to get practicing...now what did I say about mounted missiles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-book2.gif

+2 morale with VI? Just the kind of info this infrequent (3 actual games and 1 for screenshots for this guide in nearly 2 months) MP newbie needs. I was wondering why units kept fighting for longer than I expected.

WOW That is an amazing piece of work there You could do an honors thesis with it

BTW, does this also apply to the multiplayer version of MTW?

This is written solely from a single player point of view as I have only played 3 proper MP games and I lost all of them (good against the AI is one thing, against the living it is something else). As you might expect this does not put me in the best of positions to give advice for MP. Most of this will work in MP, for example swords get a bonus against spears regardless of mode and basic tactics are always the same so reading it and using the tactics should set you up well enough to stand a good chance in MP...as long as you practice your game anyway.

Enjoy the new HTML unit guide with links to all the units Yup, no more searching through piles of text to find what you want. A big http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif to TosaInu for compiling this, I had nothing to do with it so point all your thanks in his direction.

HTML guide also accessable from the org front page via the 'guide' option in the side menu.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ Jan. 28 2004,05:19)]I would say that already running before the cavalry starts charging increases the chance to get a good charge.

This example may help illustrate how I think it may work:

0 secs charging 10% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 3
1 sec charging 30% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 5
2 secs charging 60% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 7
3 secs charging 100% of maxcharge 1-10+ kills but most are 10.

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Maybe this has been addressed in the dungeon, but would increasing the engagement threshold provide the time needed to bring the charging unit up to full speed? If so, what would the difference in the threshold be?

frogbeastegg - quite the impressive guide. very nicely done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Dec. 12 2003,11:15)]they do have a certain number of guaranteed safe shots (I think it is 4) before they are at risk of blowing up.

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I just came across this while browsing the archive:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Sep. 18 2002,15:15)]Bombard: 3 safe shots, 10% chance of self-destruct with each subsequent shot.
Siege cannon: 10 safe shots, 3% chance of self-destruct with each subsequent shot.
Demi cannon: 20 safe shots, 1% chance of self-destruct with each subsequent shot.

This doesn't vary, by crew valour or anything else.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Sep. 18 2002,16:45)]All other cannon types apart from those three are safe from self-destruction.

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Thanks Ludens, information added and credited. Also added a note to the beginning of each section that the shield bonus is not included in my stats, thanks to Motorhead for raising that.

Obex that is an interesting question, any modders care to contribute?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Feb. 14 2004,22:30)]Thanks Ludens, information added and credited. Also added a note to the beginning of each section that the shield bonus is not included in my stats, thanks to Motorhead for raising that.

Obex that is an interesting question, any modders care to contribute?

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Froggy, that is the coolest avatar IN THE WORLD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Feb. 15 2004,21:16)]Froggy, that is the coolest avatar IN THE WORLD.

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Thanks, made it myself. I's got a few um...errors like the hair being a bit wonky but it works and I think they add personaility. I'm hoping it will kill the confusion about me being male, she's still an assassin so it keeps the moderator theme.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Feb. 15 2004,21:27)]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Feb. 15 2004,21:16)]Froggy, that is the coolest avatar IN THE WORLD.

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Thanks, made it myself. I's got a few um...errors like the hair being a bit wonky but it works and I think they add personaility. I'm hoping it will kill the confusion about me being male, she's still an assassin so it keeps the moderator theme.

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Nice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
Maybe this has been addressed in the dungeon, but would increasing the engagement threshold provide the time needed to bring the charging unit up to full speed? If so, what would the difference in the threshold be?

---

My impression is that the engagement threshold (ET) is given in the same length unit as the range of projectiles:
2000 = 1 tile = 40 meters

As the normal infantry ET is 1500, that would be something like 3/4 of the length of a tile.

So IMO the answer to your first Q is yes. I haven't done any proper testing on this, so I don't know the answer to the second Q, but I guess some tests in custom battles could be useful.

Norse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Can I translate and host this guide on the MTW Italian website? Tnx ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Vinsitor @ Feb. 16 2004,10:40)]Can I translate and host this guide on the MTW Italian website? Tnx ;)

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Ok, just make sure you include a note about translating it from English, I'd rather not risk getting messages thanking me for my work in a language I can't understand If I don't know what to do with some of the ones in English then messages in Italian would really leave me wondering...

More importantly make sure you give yourself credit for your translation work, I don't want to steal anyone's credit. You'll also need to provide your own hosting for all the pictures as these are on org hosting. That's everything, except for the obvious stuff like leave my name on it and don't miss bits out, but they are so obvious they don't need mentioning.

Good luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Sure m8, I want to tnx you very mutch :)

I'll post you the link so you could me if anithing goes

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Smallish update to the yari cavalry section, finally found the number for the bonus versus cavalry in a post by Puzz3D on the .com forums. Added Puzz3D to the credits which I thought I'd done already.

EDIT: The link has gone down from .com's front page. It was there for 2 months exactly, more than I ever thought possible. Maybe things will calm down a bit now...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Feb. 14 2004,20:45)]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Sep. 18 2002,16:45)]All other cannon types apart from those three are safe from self-destruction.

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However, the VI manual states that the organ gun also has a risk of blowing up. This might be because the quote from Gil Jaysmith is pre-VI. Perhaps someone else knows what the explosion chance of the Organ gun is?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ Feb. 22 2004,13:02)]However, the VI manual states that the organ gun also has a risk of blowing up. This might be because the quote from Gil Jaysmith is pre-VI. Perhaps someone else knows what the explosion chance of the Organ gun is?

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I have not been able to find any aspecifics on this, so I have added a generic "this gun may explode" tag to the entry. Thanks for the heads up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

I just checked the projectilestats file and I saw that Organs Gun do not blow up. Did anyone ever experience an Organ Gun blowing up? Anyway, according to the file Organ Guns have an unlimited amount of safe shots and 0% chance of blowing up.
The statictics you already had are correct and can be seen in the file.

Cheers, Duke John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Duke John @ Feb. 27 2004,19:21)]I just checked the projectilestats file and I saw that Organs Gun do not blow up. Did anyone ever experience an Organ Gun blowing up? Anyway, according to the file Organ Guns have an unlimited amount of safe shots and 0% chance of blowing up.
The statictics you already had are correct and can be seen in the file.

Cheers, Duke John

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:smacks self on head: Why didn't I think to check projectile_stats as well as unit_prod? The manual was wrong or the VI patch altered things, UI guess the former as there were many errors in the VI manual/tech tree. Thank you, changing back and adding you to the credits...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Duke John @ Feb. 27 2004,20:21)]I just checked the projectilestats file and I saw that Organs Gun do not blow up. Did anyone ever experience an Organ Gun blowing up? Anyway, according to the file Organ Guns have an unlimited amount of safe shots and 0% chance of blowing up.

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I feel so embarrassed. I ought to have checked first.

Small update to copyright section at the front of the guide.

Hey,great guide again,froggy (can i call you froggy?) i just got the time to read this one after some troubl with the Druzhina cavs...
BTW i think you meant that theyre slow and heavy light cav instead of fast and light as you said in the guide.

After some experiments they NEVER got to chase succesfully horse archers but charged quite effectively against various types of turk soldiers, both from the front and the flanks...(they took less losses than the boyards having the same valor).I may be mistaken, i dint check the numerical stats, and im not sure if they had armor upgrades, so that can be inaccurate...

Anyway, gret guide, and whats the next one ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-oops.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ Mar. 25 2004,14:26)]Hey,great guide again,froggy (can i call you froggy?)

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Sure, just about everyone does and it is a lot easier than typing frogbeastegg every time.

[QUOTE=[b]Quote[/b] ]i just got the time to read this one after some troubl with the Druzhina cavs...
BTW i think you meant that theyre slow and heavy light cav instead of fast and light as you said in the guide.

Quote:

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After some experiments they NEVER got to chase succesfully horse archers but charged quite effectively against various types of turk soldiers, both from the front and the flanks...(they took less losses than the boyards having the same valor).I may be mistaken, i dint check the numerical stats, and im not sure if they had armor upgrades, so that can be inaccurate...

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http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-wall.gif Yes, well spotted I have fixed that with credit to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, gret guide, and whats the next one ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-oops.gif

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I am working (slowly) on a comprehensive battlefield guide, expect to see something in several months. I am also lending a hand on a beginner's guide to multiplayer, I'm the beginner with the questions and the provider of the SP vet -> MP newbie tips, little things like how to live without pause and so on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]how to live without pause

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The strategy I use (used until installed VI) is just deploying troops in defensive formation from the beginning,so that they could stand everything that happens without much supervision, and then start building from that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/gc-yes.gif

Updated with a link to the new PDF version of this guide, as made by Tricky Lady.

Stunning guide. I thought I was a pretty good player, but you've told me so much I never knew A couple of things:

The description for the organ gun is understandably brief, as they are generally useless and a waste of 1/16th of your initial army. However, I have found one case in which they are invaluable - defending bridges. Put an organ gun at either side of your end of the bridge and you are *really* laughing Just thought that worth mentioning.

The other thing - kilts good for airflow (re: clansmen in the desert)? There's a very good reason that the Scots used to take their kilt off before a fight, believe me

Clearly, there can't be much for me to complain about in your guide, can there? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-smile.gif

Once agian, first rate work, keep it up

welcome to the Org cabar_feidh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Thanks cabar_feidh, I will try to include that organ gun tip in the guide. It may take a long time; I have another project that is really gobbling my attention and time.

I've been toying around with Gnome editor lately, using your guide as reference, and I discovered a number of small things that need to be corrected. Here goes:
[*]Bulgarian Brigands do not have a shield[*]Militia Sergeants (and, by implication, Urban Militia) are named as polearms troops and thus in possession of a bonus against armour and cavalry. Technically, they have poleaxes and not polearms, and so they do not get a bonus against cavalry. You can check this in gnome editor. Strangely, the unit description of Chivalric Foot Knights says those are armed with poleaxes, but they do get a bonus against cavalry.[*]Round Shield Spearmen are listed as having 3 armour, in stead of 1.[*]Rebel units: Berserkers and Khazar Royal Cavalry are listed as appearing in the regular MTW campaign, but they appear only as rebels. However, Saxon Huscarles also appear in the regular MTW campaign as rebels, but they are listed as Viking campaign-only.[*]Sherwood forresters cost 550 and have an upkeep of 52.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/cool.gif

Ms: Frogbeastegg:

Simply amazing. I'll be honest. I have not read the hole thing yet but I will be looking at it for a guide, definately.

I almost can't believe the detail. I ironically was thinking what ScudKnight said regarding making a book out of it and printing the rights to it.

Congratulation on a job well done...

Never in the face of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few.
- Winston Churchill

I thought this quote appropriate.

My son says Peace Out, so I say TW Out.

Lord Michael

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/cool.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...isha_happy.gif Thank you very much, Lord DeVeau.

Ludens, I'll sort that list out when I've got a moment...it'll probably take a week or more.

Sorry, but I've forgotten to add these 2 corrections to my list.[*]VI horsemen also appear in normal MTW (for the Danes, the Huns and the Poles).[*]Pictish mounted crossbowmen have an upkeep op 35, making them slightly cheaper than ordinary mounted crossbows.

A quick look at the front of the guide will reveal a new addition - I am not updating this any more.

Simply, I don't have the time or will any more; I am writing a book and it is expanding rapidly, demanding more and more with each idea that I have. At this rate it may even become a two-parter or trilogy, assuming I can ever get it to the required standard for publishing. My attention can only be in so many places and something had to give; it was my guides that gave way. They are complete enough, they are a lot of work to maintain, and to be honest I don't even like MTW any more.

I will try to include these last few points raised before this post, but I don't know if or when that will happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ June 21 2004,13:39)]A quick look at the front of the guide will reveal a new addition - I am not updating this any more.

Simply, I don't have the time or will any more; I am writing a book and it is expanding rapidly, demanding more and more with each idea that I have. At this rate it may even become a two-parter or trilogy, assuming I can ever get it to the required standard for publishing. My attention can only be in so many places and something had to give; it was my guides that gave way. They are complete enough, they are a lot of work to maintain, and to be honest I don't even like MTW any more.

I will try to include these last few points raised before this post, but I don't know if or when that will happen.

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good luck froggy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ June 24 2004,16:33)]good luck froggy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

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Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...isha_happy.gif

How much damage do Archers do?

What the attack of there arrow’s, is that the same as there normal?

And how is battle calculated?

(I keep is simple because my English is bad this took me a couple of minutes do to)

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

You have reached the bottom, congratulations. I bet you skipped most of the guide on the way here just to see how long it was http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
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How did u know:inquisitive: Anyway great guide:2thumbsup: , i know you said you wern't going to edit it again but Sherwood foresters Unit cost 550
Support cost 10

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Originally Posted by cwastoinand

How much damage do Archers do?

What the attack of there arrow’s, is that the same as there normal?

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In general most archers don't do much damage, unles they happen to be longbowmen. However, this depends a lot on the circumstances: targetting ligthtly armoured, unshielded troops or shooting down a hill will make them more deadly. Other missile weapons tend to be more effective.

The attack of a missile weapon is not the same as that of its unit: the unit-attack value is for melee combat. The missile attack is determined by the weapon type (i.e. all short bows are equally effective).

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And how is battle calculated?

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I am not quite sure what you are asking. Do you mean to ask how combat is calculated?

Welcome to the Org, BTW ~:wave: .

thanks, so where do i find the stats of the missile weapons?

and yha i what to know a guy falls down (-;