Pike & Musket TW ( XVI-XVII mod) in the RTW

TIMEFRAME

For those who do not now P&M TW for MTW I announce that the timeframe of this mod is between 1480 and 1700. The second period should start around 1572 in my opinion allowing more 'reformed' units.



@Ranika

"Aedhan MacDomnall Ui Machoran, also called Aedhan daDiabhal
Command; 6 (Aedhan was a fairly skilled commander, but most of his driving force was the quality of his men)
Piety; 0 (Aedhan was quite publically an athiest)
Loyalty; 4 (Aedhan was clearly less than a loyal man)
Acumen; 8 (Aedhan was trained in accounting while in England when he was young, also when he probably picked up his English sympathies)
Dread; 8 (Aedhan was a psychopath who massacred entire villages)"

For the only one vice he can get in the MTW I will use

["killer3desc"]
{"His habit of torturing and killing has become public knowledge. He is feared and hated because of it. +5 Valour, +4 Dread, -5 Piety. "}

Should be all right, I believe.


"Tyrone MacNiall Cochoran daGlúindubh
Command; 8 (Tyrone was a truly amazing commander, his faith and lingual skills inspired his men to fight, even in situations that were almost assured failure)
Piety; As much as possible (Tyrone was called 'more faithful than Patrick' by his contemporaries)
Loyalty; Likewise (Tyrone's faith and proto-patriotic feelings encouraged maximum devotion to his cause, and to anyone who supported it, his cause being a firmly Catholic Ireland)
Acumen; 6 (Tyrone was an aristocrat, and was raised to be an able mathematician)
Dread; 0 (Tyrone's kind demeanor toward prisoners and his enemies would make him almost totally lack any sense of dread. He was simply too nice)"

The only virtue he will get is

["chivalrous3desc"]
{"This man's adherence to the code of chivalry is the very stuff of legend, an inspiration to troubadours and storytellers! +3 Morale, -3 Dread"}

OR

"paranoidd3desc"]
{"He has repented his sins and claims to be washed in the blood of the Lamb of God. He has taken a vow of personal poverty and donated his wealth to the Church. The Inquisition will find him hard to fault now. -6 dread, +6 piety"}

WHICH one is better ?

I will also use the stats you have propose, even though any non-royal commanders will not get command higher than 6 - they can usually be promoted with various office titles, but because they are rather rebels ( or maybe the first one should be in English heroe list ?) or independent characters I think they can be as good as you have proposed. If you think that 'this Devil' sgould be in english list his command will be decreased by 2 points.



"I can't think of any truly amazing battles in Ireland during this period, except one, led by Tyrone (the ambush at Ceanniasc). However, I don't know how to make maps for that, unless you mean, just some basic 'troop position' type thing like found in a history book."

This kind of map should be enough, I can re-create it using MTW editor.
You can always prepare something using anykind of graphic software ( even Windows Paint is enough) as long as it is good enough to place troops and other objects using it.

"And on Irish units, all should at least hide in tall grass, Oaghancocharan should be able to hide anywhere, they were quite proficient with camoflauging. None should be available to the English except Enniskillen Fusiliers (which the English did use)."

They will be. In MTW all these units will hide everywhere ( maybe except the Fusilers).

"Also forgot, Kerns by the 16th century only carried one or two javelins on them, then used their modified lochaber axes as pikes."

Thay already have javelins, I have some data about the Irish military at that time, but the info about these axes is very important - they will get bonuses fighting cavalry.

Another thing.
In the MTW campaign every faction will get at least 9 office titles ( up to 10). I have no idea now if I add Ireland for the MTW edition of this mod ( not too soon, at least), still please propose some ( including at least 1 religious title) I will have these placed in my data resources for future, possible use.

@EC

"As for "The Wild Fields", well I know you like that province a lot and no problem, I can do it. But still I don't understand your motives. That area was part of Kiev. Sich was merely what we could today call a "terrorist camp" (or at least Bush's administration would call it so). It was no town, it was no city, it was a place filled with crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks."

Honestly I was going to travel to Kiev to support the Ukrainian opposition manifestations only to realise that my passport is invalid ( I don't need it in the EU) and it takes about one month to get a new one, damn ! Still it has nothing in common with this province.
I believe that it is really necessary, even though it wasn't a town, but was important enough to be added as one of these. I want the Cossack faction in the mod and they will need one province.
Kiev is not for them, so they need something else.
In fact even though Sich was a warrior camp ( or camps, because there were several of these) and not much more WE WILL NEED IT.
It should be called Sich, because it was known by this name. No 'Hortitsa', please - noone will recognise its meaning, except few of us.


The map should include some kind of 'landbridge' from Finland to Sweden, but nothing more than minimum.

BTW I am sending you the MTW map.

@Dead Moroz

"This was my suggestion for Eastern European provinces during MTW mod. Some most eastern regions should be corrected according to RTW realities, but the main idea is still the same."

Lithuania should be the way it is done in EC's map. It was easy to invade and its borders are rather very acurate.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman

@Count, tHe dEmEnToR

This will take some time, I am not sure I have this at all it was AlexPeters work.

Anyway I will inform you soon.. :bow:

I'll make a map for the ambush at Ceanniasc as soon as I can, and send it to you, it should be simple. As an aside, the town's name, Ceanniasc, means 'Fish's Head'. I always found that funny, considering the town really did do anything with fish.

Aedhan, maybe make him an English hero, since he WAS working for the English, not the Irish. However, my sticking point on that is, he used an Irish army, with Irish troops and such, not English troops. The Vice sounds perfect for him.

I'd say the second virtue for Tyrone, that seems to fit him to a T. Even if Tyrone were in a faction (like, as said, a possible, but probably far off indepedent Irish faction), he'd technically be a prince. While he joined a monastary and such, he was prepared to take the throne of Munster if necessary. While not directly from the bloodline of the current king, Irish Ruire were elected, not usually inherited.

If the Irish were made a faction, just to get this out of the way right quick, could that be simulated? Like, have them operate like the HRE. When the king dies, with no heirs, a new king is elected? In reality, whenever the ruire died, they'd elect a king, regardless of any children he had, but usually it'd be one of his sons, nephews, siblings, or first-to-second cousins.

Office Titles;
Ardeaspag tu Armagh (Archbishop of Armagh, where the cathedral in which Saint Patrick's body is interred is, as well as numerous holy relics that were removed during the Victorian conquests; during this period, he also had to command a defense force for the cathedral and the town, and should maybe get +1 to command)

Taoiseach (Chosen One, the oldest title still in use in Irish government, the Taoiseach was originally in charge of overseeing the elections of the Ri, and was a foreign affairs advisor)

Ceannasaí Faolcú (Wolf Champion, in charge of organizing all clan armies into cognizant combat units, this job required more mathematical skills than it did command skills, as he actually commanded very little, he more crunched numbers to organize the men)

Comhairleoir duiRuire (Advisor to the King, technically, he was less of an advisor, and more of a stenographer. His duty was to copy down all important events in the king's life, including things said that the 'advisor' found interesting or important, to ensure the king's legacy. However, they were also mathematicians and trained commanders, who would lead armies for the king if needed)

Claíomh duIompróir (Bearer of the Sword, the king's personal champion. This man was expected to be the greatest single warrior in Ireland, and also the greatest war leader, aside from the king {who was always expected to be the best, it's part of how they were elected})

Aochaith Peaca (another religious title, One Who Eats Sin, like an Irish grand inquisitor, except his duty was to rally people to fight against Protestants, and instead of personally punishing heretics {there was no legal execution in Ireland for civilians, no matter the crime, though soldiers, including spies and such, would be executed}, he encouraged the populace to do it themselves)

Brehonmór (Great Judge, all of the Brehons (Judges) in Ireland answered to him. He was responsible for resolving high level legal disputes, such as the Ruire deciding to sue one another over some percieved slight, his job was to ensure they did not come to war over it, and resolved it peacefully)

Madra duiRuire (Dog of the King, while it may sound derogatory in English, this was a huge compliment to be given this title. It's purely ceremonial, but it did provide the recipient with many servants to assist them in running their affairs, possible acumen increase?)

Madra Aimiréal (Dog Admiral, essentially a 'Grand Admiral', the head of not only all naval operations, but spies, assassins, and other clandestine operations)

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Originally Posted by cegorach1

Lithuania should be the way it is done in EC's map. It was easy to invade and its borders are rather very acurate.

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Disagree. Lithuania shouldn't be that huge region it was in MTW and in EC's map. You confuse state and national borders. Lithuanians dwelled in small territory, close to present day territory of Lithuania. But they had large state - the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russia - which consisted of many small regions. It was the big mistake that there was only one big region of Lithuania in MTW. Let's not continue this bad tradition!

Lithuania MUST be split into at least 3 regions:

- Lithuania (national territory of Lithuanians);
- Polotsk (former Russian principality of Polotsk; very important town in conflicts between Russia and Polish-Lithuanian state);
- Belarus (national territory of former Kievan Rus Slavs).

There should be also Galicia (not sure in spelling) - the territory around modern Lviv.

I agree 100% with you Dead Moroz. Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a name of a state, which was further split into many Voivodships. I think the split in 3 is fair. Besides RTW is quite a bit different from MTW the way an opponent can invade your province. It can go straight to your capital, not paying much attention to other regions it passes. And controlling the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as a whole was never that easy for a conqueror. It's simply too vast a territory to be easily subdued.

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There should be also Galicia (not sure in spelling) - the territory around modern Lviv.

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There is Ruthenia, as I believe Galicia is a bit older name and refers to slightly different territory (not only Ruthenia but also large part of Lesser Poland with Krakow).

Regards,
EC

SENAT

I believe we should use it and all three auto-allied factions slots as efficient as possible, so it means that ALL THESE SLOTS ( senat + 3 factions) should be used.
We want as many factions as possible, I believe.

It means that it SOULDN'T BE Ottomans + Tatars + Moldavia, but either HRE or Catholic states ideas.

I believe that Spain + Hapsburgs + the Knights + Pope is better than
HRE ( Hapsburgs + Saxony + Brandenburg or similar), because actually very many of the wars fought at that time were between the countries of HRE and this way we will have HRE expanding not fighting numerous 'cvil wars' as it was in reality.


Cegorach ~;)

Another general consideration about France:

To reflect huguenot unrest an so on, we should allow in the Huguenot provinces some sort of building that adds up greatly to the cultural penalty and thus to unrest.

Alternatively what we could do is make a Huguenot France as a country vassal of the normal France and tie the war to some building construction event (say a big cathedral or something).

Just brainstorming tho, we have to address the issue I believe and that was the first thing that came into mind...

cegorach, check this
out. It might come handy as it allows us to specify VERY clearly the conditions under which to build a unit. And how to make them region-specific and so on.

MAP NEWS

I've been working on a map lately, added some regions here in there. In The Netherlands, Eastern Europe, Germany, and a couple more here and there. Screens presenting there regions will be soon. In the meantime, you can see screens showing what I'm doing with the added Northern Europe. I will get in further north, as some of you here advised, so that it will be possible to go from Sweden to Finland on foot.

I have an idea: I've been reading that thread about the triple alliance and the Senate thingy, and I think I have to change my mind. I'm saying it here as I have some other conclusions connected with it. I think the option with the Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States is a good one. I think it's better to have one faction representing states such as Saxony, Brandenburg, Bavaria etc. similarly to (Greek Cities in RTW), than to use some other faction slots for many one-province factions. There also should de some few strong rebel type regions in Reich.

As Cegorach previously mentioned, we cannot afford to leave even one faction slot empty, and the main flaw of the muslim idea is I think that such alliance would not make much difference in the game as only the Ottomans would be a challenge for their foes. While when attacking some weak german state you would not only be in troubles with the Emperor and the local ruler, but aslo with Pope and Spanish Habsburgs. Pretty realistic I'd say.

Regards,
EC

Good work! the map looks quite satisfying.

And you might have a point about the Alliance. Lets see what other say. I like the idea. Altho that removes the irony of having a "muslim" "papacy". Ah well....

In retrospect, Malachai MacDomnall Ui Machoran would be a good 'heroic' Irish commander. After assassinating his treasonous brother Aedhan, he led the defense of the Aran Islands and the Burren for many years, successfully defeating numerous uprisings, and English invasions, with vastly inferior forces and outdated weaponry and armor for much of that time, until the Spanish and French both gave him a large gift of rifles and swords (crafted in the Irish style, showing an amount of appreciation and respect for him) for his men.

Malachai MacDomnall Ui Machoran, (1564 - 1645, he actually sort of disappeared, he wandered off into the hills singing and no one saw him again)
Command; 5 (Malachai was a decent quality commander, but it was other attributes that made him a good leader)
Piety; 7 (Malachai was a deeply religious man, one of the reasons he grew to dislike his brother)
Loyalty; 4 (Malachai loved Ireland dearly, enough that it pushed him over the edge to learn that his brother was an English pawn)
Acumen; 5 (Malachai was a good mathematician, but not nearly as much as his brother, and he refused to use non-Irish systems of measurement for anything, so trade was badly slowed due to having to work things through the very...very unique 'Gaelan' system of measurements)
Dread; 4 (Much like Aedhan, Malachai was a terrifying figure, tall and imposing, and near merciless in the destruction of his enemies on the field, but was a truly honorable man to his prisoners, treating them well, and always doing his best to offer their master's reasonable ransoms)

Vice/Virtue;
chivalrous3; This should do the trick.

" Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States"

What is it with you guys and Papacy? Papacy is too weak in that period. Did Pope have the power to grant his followers an 'exotic unit'? Did he have the power to assign _important_ offices? Did anybody listen to the Pope in XV c. anymore? The last 'crusade' was well over 50 years ago, in Varna, and ended in disaster because nobody cared. The Pope only has as much power over HRE as they allowed it themselves...
Now, Imperial Court or Reichstag, did have actual power over the german states, and could do all these things. I don't think Brandenburg and Saxony should be in the same faction, their interests quickly became too conflicting - in 30 years war Saxony was allied with Sweden against the Empire, how do you want to represent that if all Electors become one faction?

Well, cegorach said that the papacy would be in for sure, so we give them some power.

And besides the rewards for accomplished missions can be changed I believe, so I dont see the problem

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Originally Posted by eadingas

" Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States"

What is it with you guys and Papacy? Papacy is too weak in that period. Did Pope have the power to grant his followers an 'exotic unit'? Did he have the power to assign _important_ offices? Did anybody listen to the Pope in XV c. anymore? The last 'crusade' was well over 50 years ago, in Varna, and ended in disaster because nobody cared. The Pope only has as much power over HRE as they allowed it themselves...
Now, Imperial Court or Reichstag, did have actual power over the german states, and could do all these things. I don't think Brandenburg and Saxony should be in the same faction, their interests quickly became too conflicting - in 30 years war Saxony was allied with Sweden against the Empire, how do you want to represent that if all Electors become one faction?

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As for the Pope, he doesn't have to be granting anything, as we can prevent him from giving any valuable gifts. The offices can also be altered so they won't change the gameplay at all.
I agree Pope had no real power then, but if I have to choose Pope or Reichstag, its the first one.
It's so because as I said before I think it's not quite sensible to make a couple of one-faction states with no chances of survival in conflict with some of their major neighbors. I really think it's much better to have a collective faction representing allied states, or states with common goals, foes, friends. If (because I myself don't know much about German history) Brandenburg and Saxony happened to be enemies at some point in the past, then one of them will have to be made rebel and the other would go to the Electoral States. I know it's kinda unfair for the faction which would be made rebel, but you have to remember we have only 21 faction slots. Adding one more german faction complicates the whole faction assigning situation quite a bit.

I don't remember if there were already decisions been made as to what are the possible factions here, as I think for RTW we have to rework the list a bit. So a list of factions I think are possible:

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. The Cossacks
12. Crimean Khanate
13. Switzerland
14. Denmark
15. Repubic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa
17. Hungary/Transilvania[/color]
18. Electoral States
19. Moldavia
20. Brandenburg
21. Portugal
22. Georgia
23. Persia
24. Scotland
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name)
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc.
27. Knights Hospitallers

So these are my ideas, what are yours?
I'm hoping we can work this out together. It would be a step forward if we decided about faction-arrangement.

And I aslo want to say that I'm not sure if my ideas are always good, but I'm doing it so that we can have a point to discuss and come to some conclusions profitable for this mod.

Regards,
EC

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25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name)

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Fez maybe? The problem with that one is that despite the fact I researched it a good bit during the summer, I couldnt find any info before the XIX cent at all. And even those I couldnt read coz it was written in whatever Fez language is.

09. The Papacy
15. Republic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc.

Hmm, wouldn't that make a better Senate+Rome set, BTW?
And the Senate faction will always be 'wasted'. It's almost unplayable, only playable if you are willing to fight against the hard-coded disabilities this factions has... it's single-province in the vanilla game and it works well - as long as it's surrounded by allies (which Imperial Court or Reichstag - or Pope+Italians - would be)
And, as much as I like Ukraine and the Cossacks, should they get their own faction for the time period of this mod?... should be strong rebels... the Cossacks always rebelled and fought for independence, but were always too weak to grant it for themselves. There was never a 'free Ukraine' state except for short periods of bloody-quelled insurgencies...so it would be a bit of wishful thinking to give them that independence in the game...

Sorry for Spamming,

Heres my suggestion working on ECs list which Im quite happy with.

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. The Cossacks (make rebel)
12. Crimean Khanate
13. Switzerland (make rebel as well, with a BIG garrison army and low unrest)
14. Denmark
15. Repubic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa (make rebel)
17. Hungary/Transilvania[/color]
18. Electoral States
19. Moldavia
20. Brandenburg
21. Portugal
22. Georgia
23. Persia
24. Scotland
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name) (make rebel)
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc. (either include with the POPE or rebel)
27. Knights Hospitallers

and a few more coz we are still over the top

Leave out Knights (talk about a weak, single-province state... but can rebels build fleet?) and Moldava (they never expanded on their own, only as protectorates of Turkey or Poland, so making them rebels is enough) and you're left with 20. Replace Crimeans (same thing as with Moldava - since 1478 they were never independent) with Saxony.

Sounds good to me, althoug I have to say I was expecting to see some vassal-relationship between Turkey-Crimea or Turkey-Moldavia. Ah, well...

On another note, remember the post about huguenotes I wrote?
I just thought that if we make a separate huguenote state (which I dont really think possible but hey!) we could make them vassals of both England and France so when war between England and France starts they have to choose.

If we didn't have the limit, Moldavia and Crimea would be a fine addition, but since we have to choose, I'm pretty sure they have to go. Crimea acted sometimes like a sovereign nation, but as soon as the Khan's actions started to go against Sultan's will, he was coming to Crimea, removing him and put another ruler without even as much as a symbolic fight. I don't think there is a way to represent this relation in game engine other than simply having Crimea as part of Ottomans, but maybe with separate units and buildings for that region?
As for the Huguenots... it would be fun to have them... but don't they appear too late in game to have their own faction from the beginning? It will be very hard to represent Reformation with the game engine as it is... other than through buildings and traits, we have no way of inducing rebels at a certain point in the game and who would want to build a building that gives him increased unrest?
(BTW, are Marian Reforms changed to Reformation for this mod, or to something else?)
(also, remember that at the time Hugenots didn't call themselves that. They used the name 'Reformees', and Hugenots was a derogatory name used by their enemies)

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(BTW, are Marian Reforms changed to Reformation for this mod

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I believe so, yes.

I think that, as we cant have them as a faction, we could just have a "Huguenot" hidden resource that would add up to unrest say +20, and besides make them very rebellious provinces.

Quote:

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also, remember that at the time Hugenots didn't call themselves that. They used the name 'Reformees', and Hugenots was a derogatory name used by their enemies)

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~D Yeah, all i know about them comes from French and Irish sources, so.... Im inconsciously biased.

The Crimean Khanate will have to be in. It's not merely a one province faction like Saxony for that matter, but a three province state. It played a signifficant role in the wars of Russia, Poland and sometimes Turkey. Besides their army was very specific and original (they were the followers of the Golden Horde and the Mongol Empire) what cannot be said of Saxon army. If there are Cossacks included as a separate faction, and there is a discussion about Hugenots, I sincerely believe there can be no discussion whether or not to include Tatars. They could be a turkish protectorate tho. Just as the Cossacks are going to be a polish protectorate.

I'm not saying Saxony has to go, but all in all it was signifficantly less important than the Crimean Khanate.

I was wondering if Portugal has to be in - it was most of the time under spanish control. And I too think the Hospitallers should not be included, they were just insignifficant minor faction, and they could only occupy Rhodes as Malta is too small to make it a region in its own rights.

Moldavia is not a must as well, I agree it can be made rebel.

Well I just looked at SwordsMasters list and have to say I agree with his suggestions about Cossacks, Genoa, Switzerland, so we would be left with:

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. Crimean Khanate
12. Denmark
13. Repubic of Venice
14. Hungary/Transilvania
15. Electoral States
16. Saxony (ah well or any other suggestion: perhaps some collective italian faction like Electoral States is Germany, or any other)
17. Brandenburg
18. Portugal
19. Georgia
20. Persia
21. Scotland

And SwordsMaster, I don't consider this a spam - we're trying to work out a sensible and reasonable compromise here, hence we have to have a clear situation. A list makes things clear.

Regards,
EC

Ah! somehow I didn't notice Portugal on the list. You're right, Portugal doesn't have to be a faction, not in a game that concerns only Europe. Even as independent, it NEVER expanded or fought any wars in Europe or anything... this is why it had to expand through colonies. It can start as rebel - the Spanish didn't 'conquer' it (in game terms) until 1580. So we can have Crimea back this way.

oh, well, but I somehow consider Portugal more important than Saxony, as it was very closely linked to Spain in the diplomatic sense, marriages, treaties, civil wars, etc, but I guess if we need that free slot we could just give them a strong garrison and leave them rebel.

@EC, I meant Spamming as I poste 2 post with some 5 min difference in between.

The list I last posted makes it possible for both Portugal and Saxony to be in.

There are ofcourse other possibilities. I think if Cegorach reads this what we're now discussing, he wont like getting rid of Cossack faction. First of all they have never started a country. They were either hired to armies and then happy; or left alone which caused them making troubles, rebelling.

The Khmelnytsky Uprising wasn't the first, there were many more before, the situation that that one time it kinda worked out, I think can be compared to a situation in game where one of yours provines rebells and your eastern neighbor takes it few turns later as you're weakened by constant warfare...

I'm saying this now, because I'm leaving for 3 days tomorrow and wont be able to confront Cegorachs disapproval for the idea of making Cossack rebels.

It might be I'm going to come here again tonight, and perhaps with some fresh screens, but it's not sure yet so I may just as well not come.

See you around crew.

Regards,
EC

well, but IMHO, as a faction, cossacks are less important than Portugal, Saxony or any other "formal" faction. And we have to remember that we HAVE to choose.

@cegorach Is there anything else you need about spanish units? unit desc or something?

If you do, could you please post a list of thing that need to be done? As I said before I have no accounts of what I did and what I didn't prior to mid-October.

Please don't make the Cossacks a rebel faction. It is true that were not the largest or most powerful of the other nations in the mod, but in comparison to the Crimean khanate they were a more important force to be reckoned with. I mean what about Georgia, and Scotland, I mean were they really that important on their own? And the Knights too, I mean, how powerful or important were they?

I have been faithfully following this mod for a long time, although I haven't started posting in the forums until recently, specifically so I could play as the Ukraine/Cossacks, please please please don't make them a rebel faction.

Sorry, but that is all they ever were in that time period - rebels. Very strong, very nasty and surely a force to be reckoned with, but rebels nonetheless, not a 'state' or a 'faction' in any sense. An archetypal rebels, so to speak, as well as a solid source of mercenary force for both Poland and Russia...

rebels, yes, but so was scotland, more or less, and ireland, and the knights and the tartars

of all of them, the Cossacks were the most significant in Europe during that period.

The Cossacks certainly were a faction, they less organized and not very european in nature but yes they were a faction/nation. During the Thirty Years' War, and both before and after, many Western nations tried to form treaties and alliances with them. Although in smaller numbers, they fought in the 30YW, at first with the Catholics, and then with France. Ivan Sirko, one of the most famous of all cossacks even fought in the 30yw. Unlike scotland, or the tartars, this was a war they joined as a free nation, not as an at of rebellion, they weren't being pushed by other nations into joining either, it was a decision made by the cossacks for themselves.

True, they were not as sophisticated or as organized as most European nations/factions, however they were a faction/nation. They were just a very different one.

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Originally Posted by commieanarko1986

rebels, yes, but so was scotland, more or less, and ireland, and the knights and the tartars

of all of them, the Cossacks were the most significant in Europe during that period.

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Disagree. Ireland are included in the mod as rebels so no discrimination going on there. The knights were also a faction with some independent tradition at the time, nonetheless the lack of space means we cannot include them either.
Scotland was indeed a faction and a pretty important one. The kings of England actually descend from a scottish dinasty (I can be wrong here).

The cossacks DESERVE a place in the mod that is right and they were going to be included (as were the knights, etc) but there is no space available. Maybe after some sort of patch is released to allow more space we can have them in.

Of course western nations tried to ally with them, they were a blade under the russian belly, that was VERY useful to destabilize the russians and/or the tartars.

Why don't you make the Crimean Khanate the rebel faction instead? They were essentially puppets of the Turks with little real independance, even if they did start wars on their own. Besides, who was going out of their way to form alliances with the tatars, apart from the cossacks who were willing to accept just about anyone as an ally at the time. If a country wanted peace with the crimean khanate they had to get an alliance with the turks, not the crimean tartars.

Ok, now consider it objectively:
Who would you set as REBEL? A faction that is a remaining of the Mongol empire, mayb vassalized by the Turks, but an independent faction with different fighting stiles, etc...

Or a band of rebels and criminals who fled Russia, Poland and mixed themselves with the population in the area.Who build a fort in the river and fought the Tzar, the king of Poland and the Tatars because they wanted to recruit the cossacks into their armies. Did the cossacks have an administration? an official currency? Taxes?

Yet again, Im not saying they dont DESERVE to be in the mod, but just that if we have to choose, and we HAVE to choose, the cossacks are not the ones to get the slot.

Maybe If Cegorach considers that Saxony can be left out coz their weapons, etc is similar to the German states, the cossacks would get the slot.

Regards.
SM

I agree with all that SwordsMaster here said about the Cossacks. I don't think I need to remind everyone once again who the Cossacks really were and what are the arguments as not to include them as a faction. Instead what I want to say is that they have to be in this Mod anyway, but not as a faction, but as different regional units, rebel forces always present at the start of any campaign (as they were always there through out this mods time period) and probably as mercenaries. And in this way, they would resemble themselves much more accuratelly.

I'd like to have a go with them too commieanarko1986, but including them would mean getting rid of another faction. Only some german faction could be thought as a potential candidate to be out, but it'd better not be so. Georgia, although not particularly important from your point of view, was a country strong enough to withstand Ottoman campaigns and preserve its independence. This, and a fact the mod actually needs them (they will fights with the all mighty Ottomans, hence will balance their power and still not crush it) makes Georgia a player on our political map.

Regards,
EC

Factions

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. Crimean Khanate
12. Denmark
13. Republic of Venice
14. Hungary/Transylvania
15. Electoral States
16. Saxony
17. Brandenburg
18. Portugal - replaced with Cossacks,
19. Georgia
20. Persia
21. Scotland

My thoughts:

18. Portugal - slot replaced with Cossacks,

Portuagal really didn't matter much for the rest of europe, it was doomed to be quite isolated and expanded only overseas. It wasn't really possible for them to expand in the continental europe,unless they would defeat Spain somehow, which was far too difficult.
Cossacks are really different - it was one of key factions, even though semi-independent.
Its importance was recognised by many countries - Poland, Russia, Tatars, Turkey, HRE, Sweden and Hungary. Notice that Cossacks together with Tatars were able to mobilise huge forces and change the balance of force in eastern europe forever.
Actually Cossacks were much more important ground and naval power than Georgia or Brandenburg for most of this time ( 1480-1700), so I see no reason not to place them in this mod.

Second - I have spent A LOT OF TIME searching for sources and people who could help me with this mod, especially when it comes to units, and I found some.
The latest 'discovery' is Sad Ronin, and I actually proposed him to support this mod not any other, rival mod ( like Citadel TW) and I am not going change my mind when it comes to this.
He will present some of his ideas here later, I have seen some of these and found them more than interesting, certainly useful enough not to support the idea to remove the Cossacks from this mod.

19. Georgia

Pretty modest piece of information I have about this faction, but it is one of these 'key factions' so should be in the mod, I believe.

20. Persia

It will take some time to find something about it or someone who will do it - anyone from Iran here ?


Knights Hospitallier

Although small, one-province faction it was a very formidable naval power. I hope, however that rebel fleets could affect the game in similar way. Anyway we will have to make the Papacy quite powerful in the sea, and possibly give them Rhodes as well ( or for HRE, maybe).
I don't know if it is possible to implement, though.



The rest is rather all right, in my opinion.


and @eadingas

Moldavia DID expand on its own, around 1480 they were really quite important - most of my moldavian units come from this period, although they won't get their own slot.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~:)

You still need to get rid of one faction there though, game limit is 20. (excluding slaves, which HAVE to be slave and nothing else, or the game doesn't work)

You can't just take the rebel slot and give it to another faction. You do know that, don't you?

hmm, maybe as Persia doesnt have enough background to exist yet, we could give the Persian slot to the Cossacks.

Anyway, I strongly think Portugal was far more importand from the European point of view than the Cossacks.

Portugal was also campaigning in N.Africa, ruled the Spanish economy (most of the banks were owned by portuguese men), also it was an ally in the truglle with the Protestants and a REALLY strong naval power, thatis apart from their sheer income from trade overseas.

All the cossack material doesnt have to be lost, we can use most of it making the cossack rebels.

Anyway, I´ve gathered afew more images we could use in different informative scrolls and other random images, I´ll send them to you later.

Regards

Scotland should most definitely not be rebels, considering that the United Kingdom came about as a result of a Scottish king (King James) annexing England into a single kingdom with it, after becoming king of both Scotland and England.

The Irish should be rebel. I'd like to see it otherwise, but in all reason, given the limit, they did not have much effect (as a nation) outside of a very long war with England. However, they did have numerous secondary points, and I still think the Spanish/French should get an Irish ancillary, or possibly some Irish named commanders, or even Irish troops trainable in some regions, specifically in Leon and in Aquitane, where there were actual offices to sign up Irish immigrants into special units, maybe even just have a structure for them available in large/huge cities, or have a port required (since it was connected to ports, where the Irish were free to sign up upon disembarking, but not actually required, could also give a small pop growth boost)? Could even be the structure required to give commanders in the city aforementioned Irish ancillary. However, they're discussed here at length because of their unique military, and the fact that the Spanish and French hired so many of them, and held them in very high esteem (not actually unlike Cossacks, I should think), and that they may possibly, later, be added to the M:TW version, though that'd be far off. The Irish as a nation would really only matter as an enemy of England, and ally to France and Spain, but aside from those things, it was a major trade port, but it did not engage in wars in Europe as the Irish nation, it did that as mercenaries and soldiers in exile.

The Cossacks I'd be vaguely ambivalent about. They would be an interesting faction, but wouldn't top the list of factions I'd add. I would think maybe ditching Saxony might be viable though, and putting in Cossacks instead. However, I do think Portugal was pretty important, and more so than the Cossacks. I'd think dropping Saxony, since it'd be pretty much identical to Germany, would work. Persia I know waaay too little about in this period to offer an opinion.

Is it possible to make perhaps a patch or two versions for this mod, one with cossacks as rebels and one with portugal or saxony or something else as rebels?

Slaves... Ahrrrr

So we need a pool.

In my opinion Persia will have to go, but + what ?

Persia + Portugal,

Persia + Saxony,

Persia + Georgia ( Russia will have to guard its south more carefully)
or what else ?


@patch

This is a good idea. We could call it Georgia patch, Portugal patch or Saxony patch or whatever.
I am still not sure if it is easy to implement.


@Swordmaster

I did get it, thanks !



regards Cegorach/Hetman :book:

Well, if we HAVE to live with the Cossacks, then I think Saxony is the one that should be out: their units are similar to the German ones, and they could do as Rebels without much trouble.

The patch seems like a good idea to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cegorach

Persia + Portugal,

Persia + Saxony,

---

Depends on the period I think. Will this be only one campaign (1480-1700)mod? If yes, then I think Saxony wasn't that important at the end of the 15th century. If there is any later campaign then its bye bye for Portugal. Georgia was there all the time and plays a role in "the Ottomans vs. The Rest of the World" conflict.

New sneak preview: Northern Germany and the Netherlands .

Regards,
EC

LOL, I love the sight of Berlin with that Double headed axe flag ~D .

Great work EC,
question are you reworking the geography as well? As the RTW map isn't all that accurate...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

Great work EC,
question are you reworking the geography as well? As the RTW map isn't all that accurate...

---

Yes, I do. Mostly its adding/deleting/adjusting rivers, clifs, sometimes mountains. I erased all the forest too. I will place them after all the regions' capitals are placed and decided upon. But in general I rework everything step by step.

I seek good info (preferably good maps) on French regions now. Any help would be welcomed.

I was also thinking that if Persia isn't going to be included it'd be perhaps a good idea to clip off a bit of map in the east. I think it's better than to create several rebel regions with little general importance.

Regards,
EC

I guess you don´t mean modern day France ;P That would be too easy.

I´ll see what I can do. I just emailed cegorach a 1660 map of Africa, I can email it to you as well if you want me to. Its pretty small tho...

Edit: Found a few maps of the 1600s, If you could give me an email adress I can send them to you. Free some space tho. They are political-military maps, so you could refer to a modern atlas for geography.

Link to a useful page

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

I guess you don´t mean modern day France ;P That would be too easy.

---

You're right in your guessing.

Regards,
EC

EC, I absolutely love your work on the Dutch part of the map! However, the geocraphics (sp?) aren't exactly right. Allright, the Netherlands had a grand load of swamp, but it also had a grand load of fortifications. IIRC, it is not possible to build a fort in a swamp. Besides that, movement through a swamp is very slowly, quite contrary to realistic movement in the low lands. Please remove it and replace it with good fertile land. A little swamp in Holland is possible, though. Amsterdam was a coastal city, as I see you've done with Lubeck and Stettin already. Replace the current port with the city and put the new port at the top of Holland (to represent the importance of Texel). The port of Utrecht would ideally lie a little more eastern (ain't I a nitpicker ~D) on the place of Kampen. The port of Groningen (the third port of the Netherlands? Ah well, they were a seatrading faction...) would lie a little north east of the town.

An absolute must would be adding the IJsel, a river flowing from the Rhine a little right of Utrecht to the Zuiderzee by Kampen. Holland saved itself from French occupation by the Roy du soleil with the aid of his worst enemy and best friend; water. They would set huge parts of land under water to make it impossible for the enemy to reach the provinces of Amsterdam and Utrecht. The French could not pass the Waterlinie and had to wait for winter and ice. I know it's not possible to implement that in the game, but adding the river IJsel will make the difficulty of actually reaching the important cities clear. As the Allied forces at the battle of Arnhem in 1944 noticed... Anyway, a ford southwest of Utrecht is imo the only place where the rivers can be passed by a huge army. It may give the Netherlands a huge advantage, but in reality it was their only actual defence for a good 300 years (from early 17th century to mid 20th century). All that will make land trade a little insignificant. Well, that's how things were here! Nearly all inland trade and transport would go via rivers, good roads were few until far beyond the time frame.

But beside these so tiny corrections, your work looks fantastic! I can't wait to see more :beam:

Didn't the Dutch coast change a bit through history? I'm not sure if it's something that would matter significantly on a map of that scale though...

Eadingas, you are absolutely right. A multitude of dykes and polders were created during the time frame, the map of Northern Holland would change radically. Dykes would break, islands would move, lakes would dissapear. However, as this map is rather huge, it is already impossible to make Zeeland into islands... I fear it is just too insignificant.
However, a little Leeghwater event would be nice. (Adriaan Leeghwater, a famous man in the Netherlands. Created many "polders" especially in Holland; he would use mills to pump the water out of lakes into deep but small canals. The former water would then become a very fertile land, although uninhabitable due to it being under sea level and it therefore being too wet to live on.)

Make him a named ancillary available only to Dutch, that will add to management and/or grain trading...

I requested for our own sub-forum, just to save some time - I don't have too much time to be spent in this forum and this way we will coordinate our work more easily.

For sure we will have our own webside and forum, but it is going to help somehow.


Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

Sup gentlemen,

I have had a few problems with my computer, so i wans't able to post for sum time.
Am i still the webmaster? ~;) If i am, i still require the background picture and the banner that i asked a long time ago, can't remember the size, so please check my last post here...


About the faction slots: My personal opinion is, as a good patriot that i am ~:) , is for Portugal to be included, however, i understande the fact that, during the XVI and XVII, Portugal lost it's importance at the European level, and did not interfere in any european conflict (as an independent country that is).

Only during the restoration period, Portugal engaged in a war agaisnt Spain, which the victory was only possible due to the fact that Spain was facing the 30 years war and was also fighting to control a rebel region (i'm sorry the name doesnt come to my mind now).

D. João tried to stablish a diplomatic alliance with France, however it was refused, possibly due to the fact that we were still officially allied to the British.

So this means that Portugal had a very small roll in Europe during this period.
However, your forgeting one thing: Portugal was still, in theory at least, one of the major global powers (having lost the supremacy to Spain and Holland).
We still controled Brazil, Angola, Mozambique, Cabo Verde, Guiné, Timor, Goa, Damão, Macau and other territories over seas.

Also, during the period of Spanish political dominace we still conserved some independence and economical power of our own. The Portuguese fought many of the Spanish enemies (such as Holland) during this period, many times without any spanish support, and still fighting for Portuguese interests (because we were fighting for our land). In Brazil ocurred many battles agaisnt the Dutch.

On those battles you would see only Portuguese and Brazilian soldiers, never spanish: What i mean with this, is that, we can include many Portuguese Historical battles apart from those with Spain and those in Northern Africa (Alcácer Quibir must be in, even if there isn't Portugal as a faction).

I also think that it would be interesting to make a restoration Campaign, i'm willing to do this stuff all by myself if necessary.
But of course, i understand the limitations of the game engine. I'm in favor of a patch, making it possible to choose the faction.

Cheers, ~:cheers:

Edit: I posted whitout reading my email. I don't require the background anymore, but i still need the banner. Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ellesthyan

EC, I absolutely love your work on the Dutch part of the map! However, the geocraphics (sp?) aren't exactly right. Allright, the Netherlands had a grand load of swamp, but it also had a grand load of fortifications. IIRC, it is not possible to build a fort in a swamp. Besides that, movement through a swamp is very slowly, quite contrary to realistic movement in the low lands. Please remove it and replace it with good fertile land. A little swamp in Holland is possible, though. Amsterdam was a coastal city, as I see you've done with Lubeck and Stettin already. Replace the current port with the city and put the new port at the top of Holland (to represent the importance of Texel). The port of Utrecht would ideally lie a little more eastern (ain't I a nitpicker ~D) on the place of Kampen. The port of Groningen (the third port of the Netherlands? Ah well, they were a seatrading faction...) would lie a little north east of the town.

An absolute must would be adding the IJsel, a river flowing from the Rhine a little right of Utrecht to the Zuiderzee by Kampen. Holland saved itself from French occupation by the Roy du soleil with the aid of his worst enemy and best friend; water. They would set huge parts of land under water to make it impossible for the enemy to reach the provinces of Amsterdam and Utrecht. The French could not pass the Waterlinie and had to wait for winter and ice. I know it's not possible to implement that in the game, but adding the river IJsel will make the difficulty of actually reaching the important cities clear. As the Allied forces at the battle of Arnhem in 1944 noticed... Anyway, a ford southwest of Utrecht is imo the only place where the rivers can be passed by a huge army. It may give the Netherlands a huge advantage, but in reality it was their only actual defence for a good 300 years (from early 17th century to mid 20th century). All that will make land trade a little insignificant. Well, that's how things were here! Nearly all inland trade and transport would go via rivers, good roads were few until far beyond the time frame.

But beside these so tiny corrections, your work looks fantastic! I can't wait to see more :beam:

---

I've already made most of the corrections you suggested. Still it is not quite possible to resemble the geographic reality completely, so it's not a sattelite shot.

Generally, my way of doing things is from the most general to the smallest details, which means I'm not gonna spend hours on every little bit of the map perfecting it in separation, but will look at the big picture and adjust it step by step.

Forests will be an important issue as they either blockade the way or enable an ambush to be set. We will have to try to find some historical data on that I think. I hope there is some available around.

There will have to be a reaserch on regions made, to decide their parameters, importance, resources, trading goods, fertility etc.

There will have to be several people researching these things I suppose.


The idea about our own subforum is obviously a very good one.
I already have two map related threads in mind: provincial research(goods etc.), and a one discussing any geographic issues of the map(what regions where etc.). Just ideas, but I think useful ideas.

Regards,
EC

Cegorach,can I suggest Pavia,Nordlingen and Rocroi as major historical battles?

what about agincourt

Agincourt is ages before the starting date of the mod. Look here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=87

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

Cegorach,can I suggest Pavia,Nordlingen and Rocroi as major historical battles?

---

I can prepare almost ANY battle if I have detailed info about it, of course. ~;)

@Count, tHe dEmEnToR

I hope that your mailbox is empty now, baceuse I am sending more new screens now.


The patch should solve out all problems with the 20th faction.


BTW - If you have some detailed info about a historical battle you can send it to me as Ranika did. I have already made the ambush he described.
I want to add 8 historical battles ( 6 are finished ) for the last pre-release of the P&M for the MTW, last before the full beta release
( I have some problems which delayed my progress).

So if you have DETAILED info I can make a battle you like and believe it was interesting, at least a bit.
How detailed ? Check Kircholm 1605 in P&M TW 0.6 - polish commanders are exactly the same who fought there, same with numbers, the map etc.

regards Cegorach ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cegorach1

I can prepare almost ANY battle if I have detailed info about it, of course. ~;)

---

You asked for it: ~;)

Rocroi there

Nordlingen there

Pavia there (note the french losses.

Can it be done so you can play with both sides? I would love to win Rocroi with the spanish

Yes it can :charge:

Hello Team!

I've added the part of the map requested before, that is all the way north further than where Baltic Sea ends. So going on foot from Finland to Sweden is no problem. I have a few questions to our community connected with it:

- should Norway be spit, and if yes where
- how to divide Sweden into regions (their names and names of capitals)
- should we get it a bit more north and make a region for Santa ~;) ~D

I was also thinking, if there was a person out there (team or not) willing and able to get things going here, I could give you a hint of what's to be done. There are loads of things connected with researching the web, and that is what everyone can do. One of such things I was thinking about are the quotations . They can be and I think should be changed for some more appropriate ones... and yeah there are so many other things ...

:charge: do szabel mosci panowie i na kon :charge:

Regards,
EC

That is actually right, EC... The quotes need to be updated... I´ll look into it...

On a side note, the quotes have to be in English or any other language will do as well? Or both ("other language" and translation)?

Can we have a Christmas edition with Santa as the Senate? ~D

What other things do you need researched?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

On a side note, the quotes have to be in English or any other language will do as well? Or both ("other language" and translation)?

---

I personally think they should be either in english only, or with translations. Well, if I remember correctly latin was in common usage in the times of our mod in most of Europe, so some latin-english quotations would probably occur. The main idea about quotations in general is that they should be meaningful and interesting, giving the feel of times and wars we're recreating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

Can we have a Christmas edition with Santa as the Senate?

---

If we only could borrow some of his elves to help us get it all ready before Christmas, then why not! ~;) ~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

What other things do you need researched?

---

I very much admire your enthusiasm friend, but who if not you would respond. Anyway, since you know everything about Spain and Spanish, I'd first ask you to think about into how many, and what regions should Iberian peninsula be divided.

Regards,
EC

Hey, I found this when looking for stuff for EB, but since we're not using, maybe you want it for your Christmas Special :) It's Santa's Nenets Reindeer Cavalry :)

http://land.sfo.ru/eng/images/human/evenb.jpg

Hold on guys, it turns Santa spam. I stared it, I say we drop it. Let's move to some other important matter. That of cultures references.

Before, we have, so to speak, agreed upon faction arrangement, and about the triple alliance & senate factions. Therefore I conclude we can now discuss cultural relations. What would I propose is:

- Roman - factions as decided
- Greek - eastern europeans
- Barbarian - western europeans
- Eastern - muslims
- Carthage - ?
- Egypt - ?

And so lets work it out now.

Regards,
EC

If I may quote myself ~D :

Quote:

---

On Provinces:

The new RTW engine allow more flexibility in this aspect, and the spanish provinces of the XVI cent are wuite different from the roman ones, so here is the list:

-Castilla central province, capital: Madrid (replaces Numantia) in the later campaign after 1560, Toledo before 1560 approx. Very slow pop growth in cities, decent farming income, mines, the richest of all spanish cathedrals (i.e. Very good money from tributes, little trading upgrade, mines, farming upgrades, poor pop. growth).

- Andalucia capital, Sevilla, replaces Corduba. Good pop growth, sensible unrest, poor tax collection, can build the "Torre del Oro" building that allows trade with America. HUGE trading income, good farming lands.

- Valencia: capital, Valencia (replaces Carthage Nova). Good farming, average pop growth, decent trade income, high unrest.

- Aragon: capital Barcelona, VERY POOR pop growth, good trade income, mines, high unrest, average farming.

- Navarre: Capital: Pamplona (replaces Asturica), good pop growth, high unrest, poor trade income, mines, poor farming.

- Sicily: Im not too sure if we should make this one a single province. If so, the capital should be Palermo, if not, let me know and i´ll do some more research.

- Granada:capital:Granada low pop growth, mines, easy defence (mountain passes), good farming, good land trade, poor sea trade (except with morocco). high rebelliousness. (should have the culture penalty no matter what)

- Naples: Same as for Sicily, but Capital: Naples.

- N. Africa. This is a tricky one: the spanish controlled a few cities in N. Africa, but I dont know if that is enough as to make it a province belonging to Spain. You decide.

- I am not sure whether to include Galicia as well as a different province: If it is included, the capital should be Santiago de Compostela, with (possibly) a wonder "cathedral of Santiago". Good farming income, average rebelliousness, good sea trade.


General considerations: the "Torre del Oro" was the buiding where all the gold from America was stored before being distributed among the different places. The buildng is in every postcard of Sevilla so it shouldnt be too hard to find. Anyway I can send it by email. I was thinking that maybe this one could be one of the "wonders" in this period. And give to whoever controls it a bonus similar to the Colossus of Rhodes. Or even bigger as it was the only spanish port allowed to trade with America.

Any thoughts?

---

About cultures: I suggest a different culture for Spain as the muslim influence was still very strong in some aspects (construction, farming, etc).

Actually I was asking about the language coz there are a lot of poems in spanish written in that age that are REALLY descriptive (about spain obviously), but they sound horrible translated and lose all taste.

Remember that number of factions per culture is hardcoded, so you have to fit them so that there will be four "Greek" factions, two "Carthage" ones, one "Egyptian", etc. What's the final list of factions, BTW? It seems to got stuck on choice between Saxony, Portugal, Georgia and Cossacks...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eadingas

Remember that number of factions per culture is hardcoded, so you have to fit them so that there will be four "Greek" factions, two "Carthage" ones, one "Egyptian", etc. What's the final list of factions, BTW? It seems to got stuck on choice between Saxony, Portugal, Georgia and Cossacks...

---

Well I simply want to initiate some constructive discussion here so don't mind that my ideas are not perfect.

About the factions; Cossacks and Georgia are in. There can be patches made for Portugal and Saxony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

About cultures: I suggest a different culture for Spain as the muslim influence was still very strong in some aspects (construction, farming, etc).

---

This wouldn't be possible because of the triple alliace (Spain,HRE,Electoral States+Pope)- culture relation.

Also for the same reason I think Portugal would look akward being of different culture than Spain, to which it was so stronly "connected"(did they want it?).
The fact that Portugal was strong overseas didn't make it a big thing in Europe.
To make some comparison lets think I want Lithuania in as a Polish ally etc..

Lithuania (Grand Duchy of Lithuania to be more precise) was kinda independent as it was in the Commonwealth, and it joined it volontarily, gave a dynasty, but still had its own parliament, administration, army, wars, and was a powerful nation. From 1385 to 1569 it was pretty much so, later on it was more under polish influence.

But anyway, I don't want Lithuania in mod. This was just an example to compare the arguments. Still I'm not a Portugal hater but only try to make it realistic and for now it seems realistic to me for Portugal to be ruled by Spain.

Regards,
EC

PS.
Oh and thanks a lot for the Spanish info SwordsMaster! ~:cheers:
Quoting yourself, huh. ~D

Okay, here's my first proposition. The numbers in brackets show how many factions slots there is per culture.
It's a bit of a problem to come up with this list... If we had Bohemia, for example, it would fit better in the 'Eastern' slot instead of Brandenburg...

Carthage/Eastern Europe (2): Russia, Cossacks
Barbarian/Western Europe (6): Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, England, France, Scotland
Greek/Orient(4): Ottoman Empire, Crimean Khanate, Persia, Georgia
Eastern/Central Europe (3): Poland, Hungary, Brandenburg
Egyptian(1): Venice

Another proposition, based more on religious differences:

Roman/Catholic 1(4): Spain HRE Electoral States Pope
Greek/Protestant (4): Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Brandenburg
Eastern/Catholic 2(3): Poland, Hungary, France
Barbarian/Eastern(6): Ottoman, Crimea, Persia, Georgia, Russia, Cossacks
Carthage/Britain(2): England, Scotland
Egyptian(1): Venice

BTW, remember there are also hard-coded 'tendencies' for some factions to like/dislike each other - and nobody's really sure what they are :( Although hopefully this would get rid of/made moddable in patch...

How much work has actually been done on this? I was considering the idea of this mod merging with CTW, simply because the time period is so similar.

I prefer the second division eadngas, altho Russia as "eastern barbarian", well... I think the Russians should have the same culture as the cossacks, becuse of the religion and al that.

@EC, got some quotes, translating them.

I was asked by cegorach to come here and help you guys with your Eastern factions, what do you need?

Why isn't Persia in the mod?

~:cheers:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zastrow

I was asked by cegorach to come here and help you guys with your Eastern factions, what do you need?

Why isn't Persia in the mod?

~:cheers:

---

Becuase we dont have the info. :book: ~;)

What would you like me to start on?

Creating a Persian Faction?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

Becuase we dont have the info. :book: ~;)

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I thought its because there is no room for another faction.

And what do you think about:

Roman:
01.-HRE
02.-Spain
03.-Electoral States
04.-Pope

Greek:(eastern europeans)
05.-Russia
06.-Cossacks
07.-Hungary
08.-Poland

Barbarian:(western europeans, mostly protestants-sooner or later)
09.-Sweden
10.-Denmark
11.-Scotland
12.-England
13.-Netherlands
14.-Brandenburg

Eastern:(muslims plus oriental Georgia)
15.-Turks
16.-Tatars
17.-Georgia

Carthage:(roman catholics, but since Spain offen fought France...)
18.-Venice
19.-France

Egypt:
20.-patched factions (Saxony, Portugal, Persia)

There are many ways of doing it, culture-religion bonds have priority but there seems to be no ideal setup. Brainstorming...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zastrow

What would you like me to start on?

Creating a Persian Faction?

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Start with collecting historical data about unit types, famous commanders, possible provinces/capitals, names for characters, some famous people other than commanders but signifficant nonetheless, and it wouldnt be over yet. Happy researching :book: . ~:cheers: ~D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

@EC, got some quotes, translating them.

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Very good, and what do you think about a little thing like:

"L'etat, c'est moi"
I am the state
- Louis XIV

I believe there are many famous quotes like this, we could use also some famous lines from novels describing our period.

Regards,
EC

Instead of rudely ignoring me, could you guys PLEASE answer my last post? It's quite important.

@Silver Rusher
I think this mod won't merge with no other. I have good reasons to believe Cegorach and the rest of the team thinks pretty much the same. I don't think we need to do that. This would mean too many compromises and all in all it wouldn't be RTW edition of Pike&Musket Mod but something different. Besides, we really can do it on our own.




I was lately a bit bored with the map, so I serched the net a bit for some quotes, look what I've found:

"War is one of the scourges with which it has pleased God to afflict men."
- cardinal Richelieu

"Dulce bellum inexpertis. — War is lovely for those who know nothing about it."
- Erasmus of Rotterdam

"The prince must be a fox, therefore, to recognize the traps and a lion to frighten the wolves."
-Niccolo Machiavelli

"It is much safer for a prince to be feared than loved, if he is to fail in one of the two."
-Niccolo Machiavelli

"Iron hand in a velvet glove."
-Emperor Charles V

"The king reigns, but does not govern"
-Jan Zamoyski

"Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of war".
-William Shakespeare (from "Julius Caesar")

"Has God forgotten all I have done for Him?"
-Louis XIV

"There is plenty of time to win this game, and to thrash the Spaniards too."
-Fransic Drake

"The king is truly parens patriae, the polite father of his people."
-James I (James VI of Scotland)

"In trust I have found treason."
-Elizabeth I

I think they will do. Ok, back to some map work now.

Regards,
EC

Well I don't have to do much research on the east, its one of my specialties.

Persia is critical to the game, because without it, the Ottomans will have no major Eastern opponet and just be able to swamp Europe. Plus you need some more Islamic factions to make it more fun.

Persia was controlled during this time by the Safavids, who were an Azerbaijan noble family, who converted to Shi'ism, The Shi'ite revolution began in Persia, which overthrew the Timurids, who had weakened after the death of Timur.

In 1501 the first Safavid Shah, Isma'il took power and expanded Safavid power out of Persia into Khorasan and Seistan. However the first century of Safavid power was one of many defeats, it was not intill Shah Abbas I took power that things changed and Persia began really becoming a powerhouse nation.

The Persians commanded a powerful Army, and its people were fervent and dedicated, the Grand Mullah and Imams of Shi'ism held sway over the masses, but the Shah, the upholder and defender of Shi'ism was the true figure of power.

The Safavid Shahs were:

Isma'il 1 1501-1524
Tahmasp 1 1524-1576
Isma'il 2 1576-1578
Muhammad Khudabande 1578-1588
Abbas 1 1588-1629
Safi 1629-1642
Abbas 2 1642-1666
Sulayman 1666-1694
Sultan Husayn 1694-1722
Tahmasp 2 1722-1732
Nader 1732-1736

Their units, were a mixture of Mongol and Persian units, I typically still use the term "Paighan" for their infantry, which technically was the pre-Arabic persian name for Persian infantry, from the days of Xerxes to Khosru I Anushirvan. I do know the Persians did not use Arabic, but rather Farsi, known to the west as Persian, but I do not know if the pre-Arabic Persian terms stuck, but perhaps we could still use them for a more "unique" style to them than the usual Arabic Mamelukes and Ottomans.

The Persians also to my knowledge had "Ghulams" which essentially is Arabic for slave or retainers, whether or not they were combat capable like in Ottomans and Mameluke lands, I cannot say.

Alot of this is sketchy, as there are few details online and that I have of the true Persian make-up, I do know it a blend of 3 major influences:

- Mongol style Light Cavalry and professional forces
- Persian style superb archery and heavy infantry
- Arabic style infantry masses and often irregular forces beyond the Imperial Army

What side you care to protray the most is up to you, but I truthfully cannot say, they have this, this and this, because, well I don't think unless you go into deep archive researching you can find it. However, I can tell you what I suggest they have and although they may not be 105% historical, niether is Rome Total War or any Total War game. At least it'd be badass if not totally historical, because I frankly don't know the Persian Army by the numbers.

Well, I'm willing to assist you with any of your historical knowledge needs to the best of my abilities, if you'd like for me to draw up some Persian names, etc, I can.

good info Zastrow, but what about uniforms, units, titles, provinces, etc...


@Silver Rusher: I believe Cegorach has the last word. We were not ignoring you, just letting him answer your question.


@Cegorach
Ive been going thru the unit roster again and realized there was no substitute for the Urban watch line of infantry.
Another unit for Spain:

"Alguaciles" (Urban watch).

The keep the order within a city, usually armed with a pistol, leather cuirass, a sword and a "rodela" (round shield). They shouldnt appear in monstruous numbers although of course they are no match for battle hardened soldiers. This guys are proffessionals, not just rabble assembled to defend their homes, and earn a pay as a semi-military "police" force.

@EC: What about this ones?

"To the question of the officer about how many were we in the annihilated Tercio I answered:
Count the dead."
- Alferez Íñigo Balboa -

"I speak in Spanish to God, In French to my men, in Italian to women, and in German to my horse"
- Emperor Charles V

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SwordsMaster

@EC: What about this ones?

"To the question of the officer about how many were we in the annihilated Tercio I answered:
Count the dead."
- Alferez Íñigo Balboa -

"I speak in Spanish to God, In French to my men, in Italian to women, and in German to my horse"
- Emperor Charles V

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I know them both, only I didn't remember who was the author of the first one. About that quote by Charles V, I thought it was a bit offtopic. It has nothing to do with war, diplomacy, strategy, politics etc. etc. But if you like it and feel it fits, then I won't oppose, all in all it's an interesting quote from the period. But as a rule I think the quotations should refer to the aspects of TW games: warfare, diplomacy, royal family, politics, just as in RTW. There are no quotes there of how Romans lived, but how they fought. :duel:

But keep on doing this SwordsMaster, we gotta work all together ~:grouphug: to make this thing happen.

And whenever any of you is bored and feel like seeing some new map screen shot, just say - I make them everytime I alter the map. That is if you're interested of how is it going to look and if you want to check if its correct (especially if its your region probably). I'm not touching units yet, so it's only map, and yeah WIP of course.

Regards,
EC