http://img126.exs.cx/img126/5026/for...dsmena2sn9.jpg
So the one I made for the briton on the right wich is more heavily painted is wrong?
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http://img126.exs.cx/img126/5026/for...dsmena2sn9.jpg
So the one I made for the briton on the right wich is more heavily painted is wrong?
Why does their hair colour coordinate? Not all Belgians would have the same hair colour.
Regarding the Thorokitai Argyraspidai, the cheek guards are more to the front of the face.
BTW, they are Argyraspidai (Silver Shields) >>> Shield colour = silver? :wink:
Aymar: the medusa head is silver.
"Silver Shield" isn't the same as "Silver patern on crimson shield".Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
i don't think i'll ever get tired of looking at that unit.. i want to marry it and have it's babies.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
edit: whoot i'm a member now, thx to whoever did that. i want to have your babies too.
I really hate the face masks. Can you plaese take them off, pleeeaaaaaase...!!!
There is no real evidence for it so why keep it?
Because, I DemonArchangel, think it looks cool.
So this is the Seluecid unit? My questions are why isn't their entire shield silver, and why do they look so roman? (besides the fact the centurion is standing there)Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
How about archaeological evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince
'The find was significant in that we not only found three suits of incredibly well kept mail armor that was so tightly woven they had five and six rings inside a single ring, we also found what appear to be veils made of mail attached to ruined iron attic style helmets'
Journal for the dig twenty miles west of Antioch, 13th of June, 2002.
Romans adopted their mail armor from the celts. The Galatian tribes moved into asia minor, where mail armor spread like wildfire to the Greeks and Successors. This unit is the product of some exciting archaeological finds. There are paintings of Thureos shields like this that were either deep blue or crimson, and they had an exceedingly interesting silver medusa head in the center. The shield was probably covered with silver leaf in that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangstaman590
They look 'roman' because they were a form of Thorakitai, which is an armored Thureophoroi. The Thureophoroi were a group that split off from the traditional peltast by having a larger and heavier (celtic style) thureos shield and carrying stabbing spears in addition to javelins. Thorakitai were often armored in mail or scale armor (depending on region). Their fighting style was entirely Greek, developed through time. Romans didn't fight in the classical way we think of them very much in 270 B.C. In fact, some still fought in a phalanx with bronze armor! They look 'Roman' because everyone assumes that only Romans could fight like that, which is not true. ~;)
Sorry for the off topicness, but DemonArchangel, how do you put a different name or whatever under your username, instead of "Junior Member" or whatnot. Where yours says "Your neighborhood antichrist". I looked in the user control panel but couldn't find anything.
Because it makes them look more like Shredder, a charter member of the Saturday Morning Cartoon Archvillain Hall of Fame, which can never be a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince
Assuming junior members can do this, you must go into your User CP (that's at the top-left, a little below the Guild picture) and select Edit Profile from the list of options on the left. Then change the title at the Custom User Title box. When you are satisfied with your new title, click Save Changes. However, I don't know if junior members can do that. If not, then just wait until you are a full member. ~:cheers:Quote:
Sorry for the off topicness, but DemonArchangel, how do you put a different name or whatever under your username, instead of "Junior Member" or whatnot. Where yours says "Your neighborhood antichrist". I looked in the user control panel but couldn't find anything.
Thank you kind sir.
Now that would be an Uber General unit- surrounded by warriors of the mighty Foot clan ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sheep
Well dis is bizzar, British Belgae? I thought Belgica was a province of Gaul (well not in the game but it was). Caesar even said this De bello Gallico, the first sentence: Omni Gallia divisa est in partes tres,... (I doubt that this is properly written but hey, I don't know de bello gallico by heart). If You want it to be reallistic make it a Gaul province or a rebel but not a British. I would make the unit Gallic too. Or you could make a new faction Belgae. But It territoritry would be so small the germans, British or Gauls would conquer it in no time...
BTW: caesar said too: Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae... (And yes, I do live in Belgium, :D)
The Belgae were a people. While there was a later province named in Gaul, the people spread to different areas. The unt will be available to the Britons, Gauls, and as a mercenary unit, to reflect the spread of the Belgae.
Ranika or Psycho can go into great detail about why we have chosen the Celtic units we have chosen.
~D Do not fear Gertgregoor. All is in order. There are three variants of the belgae. Gallic (Continental), Briton and rebel. There were several tribes of the belgae both in northern France, Belgium and Southern Holland ... as well as in South-Eastern Briton and even Ireland. The Rebs with be the generic belgae tribesman. The 'Gallic' version will be Belgae warrior elite on the mainland and will be able to be raised in that area by the Gaul (Aedui) faction if it controls the area. The Briton version the Belgae in southern Briton etc. In fact, the Briton faction will most probably be the Belgae Cassi. They will all be accurately depicted with the geographical variations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertgregoor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Wow, thanks for the history lesson. ~D I didn't know any of that stuff, thanks for filling me in.
http://img117.exs.cx/img117/42/17ry.jpg
What about this shield for the Sacred Band?
Wow that is unbelievable, I love the 3-D look!
Are you all sure that the Carthagians should still have the Sacred Band units? I mean, are they not a little historically inaccurate?
i'd need to see it in-game to really comment, but it's freaking amazing looking on it's own. wow. ~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
The shield looks amazing but what is that rod above it? The shield still looks cool though ~:cool:
Well the shield looks amazing. Technically and visually it´s a master-piece, but I don´t think Sacred Band is an adequate unit for this time period. The Sacred Band (both infantry and cavalry) was annihilated by the Greeks from the city of Syracuse around 340 B.C. I don´t know of other references in history about another Carthaginian Sacred Band. ~:confused:
Well, firstly, there were two sacred bands. The Sacred Band of Baal is the one you're talking about, but heavy infantry exactly like them are mentioned many times after their 'destruction'. Perhaps the Carthaginians simply did not wish to tempt fate a second time?Quote:
Well the shield looks amazing. Technically and visually it´s a master-piece, but I don´t think Sacred Band is an adequate unit for this time period. The Sacred Band (both infantry and cavalry) was annihilated by the Greeks from the city of Syracuse around 340 B.C. I don´t know of other references in history about another Carthaginian Sacred Band.
The Sacred Band of Astarte, the cavalry, existed up until 170 B.C. or so, when Astarte's temple essentially went bankrupt. (Oddly, though Tanit took the roles of the Phoenician Astarte, Astarte (the name and the Goddess) take the role of Anath).
I only know mention of a "Sacred Band" from Plutarch that you must surely know, I was hoping that you could supply me some sources to prove your point (I crave to learn)... :bow:
"(At) the river Crimesus appeared to them again, and they could descry the
enemies passing over it, first with their formidable four-horse chariots
of war, and then ten thousand footmen bearing white shields, whom
they guessed to be all Carthaginians, from the splendour of their arms, and the slowness and order of their march And when now the troops of various other nations, flowing in behind them, began to throng for passage in a tumultuous and unruly manner (...) They, for their part, stoutly received and sustained his first onset; and having their bodies armed with breast-plates of iron, and helmets of brass on their heads, besides great bucklers to cover and secure them, they could easily repel the charge of the Greek spears."
(Disciplined, equiped with iron breastplates, brass helmets and large shields, which I´m presuming are of the hoplite "Aspis"-type) :book:
"It is said that, of ten thousand who lay dead after the fight, three thousand, at least, were Carthaginian citizens; a heavy loss and great grief to their countrymen; those that fell being men inferior to none among them as to birth, wealth, or reputation. Nor do their records mention that so many native Carthaginians were ever cut off before in any one battle."
(so these were pretty wealthy citizens, and there isn´t any mention of Carthage employing its best troops again in such numbers, at least in Plutarch´s lifetime) :book:
"The tent of Timoleon then presented a most glorious and magnificent appearance, being heaped up and hung round with every variety of spoils and military ornaments, among which there were a thousand breastplates of rare workmanship and beauty, and bucklers to the number of ten thousand."
(Again, there´s mention to iron breastplates of great beuty, sugesting an Elite fighting force) :book:
Assuming for the sake of argument, that they did indeed existed afterwards, they should be armed diferently as one may easly conclude from this text.
Doesn´t this forum have an edit option? ~:confused:
Just noticed something you said, about not tempting fate. Do you mean by not sending these troops into combat at all or just not calling it "Sacred"?
(would really apreciate those sources :thumbsup:)
As you know, sources come from different fields.
Much of the source material is archaeological (such as iron breasplates found with white enamel on them, making them gleam and shine). Also, several tablets and papyrus fragments (which were found in a jar by a Tunisian Berber while he was herding goats) have been found from 1990-2002.
One of these tablets is a temple account record for the temple of Astarte in Utica. (For all those of you who thought double entry book-keeping wasn't ancient, I assure you, it was used by Phoenicians) They list nearly a thousand sets of heavy cavalry equipment, including white enameled breastplates, lances, falcatae, etc.
As for the infantry, while there is no definitive proof that the 'Sacred Band' of Baal still exists (sort of, I'll get to this in a sec), there are mentions of units fighting in the same armor, with the same weapons, and in the same way. I think they might simply stop calling them the Sacred Band while the unit was still fighting.
As for the shields, the image comes from a coin, where Baal (the lion) is killing Jupiter (the bull).
Well have these finds been released on the web? Would really love to get my hands on some translations.
Regarding the shields, it´s stated in the text I posted, that the shields were white, so it would at least have a white background behind the embossed silver Lion and Bull.
As for the armour, it shouldn´t be a linothorax...iron breastpaltes of suberb quality should be used instead. And from what you said, cavalry should use them as well.
One final question (PITA...I know.... ~;) ), is there a final word on the type of phalanx it´s going to be? I assume they should be more of a "old" greek style than a mecedonian one, right?
(Don´t you just hate not being able to edit your posts? Especially when you find wrong spelling in your posts from writing in a hurry.... :furious3: )
Wonderful stuff! the Carthies are looking simply spectacular for this mod! I say leave the Sacred Band Infantry in, historical accuracy is great but there is a need for balance as well and I doubt they're going to come cheap. Besides, isn't EB's campaign supposed to begin around or before 300 BC? That's close enough for me to justify their presence.
sarcasm, us members can edit our posts to our heart's content. lowly junior members have to show the proper respect to the elders before you get the amenities. ahh, now i'm off to get my swedish artichoke bath.. sorry old sport, members only of course. cheerio!
edit: editted for added pretentiousness
There're three types of phalanxes that will be implemented in EB.
Iphikratean (underhand spears, one handed)
Macedonian (underhand spears, two handed)
Lacadaemonian (overhand spears, one handed)
The sb uses Iphikratean phalanx formation.
Currently, no. Our last testing date was 272 BCE. As you can see above, we only use units we can find historical justification to use. A common assumption that a unit was destroyed or eliminated, when evidence exists that it was not, is not enough for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spino
Excelent, i can't wait to use some over hand phalanxes. :duel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
Sorry for the double post, but what is that thing above the shield?
Omg, can we have more screenies and less pointless posts. This is the screenies thread.
That's the model. You're looking at it from above so it looks weird. That's the guy's head and shoulders.Quote:
Sorry for the double post, but what is that thing above the shield?
Khelvan: Just because there isn´t a clear statement saying that a sort of unit has ended, it doesn´t mean it hasn´t. In this case, this group was annihilated, and was never formed again to the best of our knoledge. If there were in fact troops fighting in the same fashion, I´d like to see some sources on it (not talking about the cavalry), have you considered greek mercenaries being these units? they would fight in the same manner. Also the time period from when we actually hear about this Sacred Band, to the beginning of the game is around 75 years...in those times, several generations.
Big_John.... you elitist bastard! :toff:
*moving music* We should all join forces, in one big family, for the sake of the MOD ,nay for the greater good of the gaming community! *applause*
By the way, who do I have to kill to be a member?
I've seen the evidence posted before around here somewhere (try looking for a unitlist topic on page 2 or 3, it should be in there), and although it may, or may not have been the sacred band, they'd still need *something* to call it by, besides, aren't they going to rename all units to a different (and appropiate) language? So for all we know they are going to be called "peasants who have never seen battle before, but think they are though in their beautiful armor"
@Prom
Beautiful shield!!! I like it more than the previous version (a) Are you going to rework the rest of the texture too??
Okey, no editing function for me yet :( so sorry for the double post
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe Poeni infantry should be renamed Liby-Phoenician Infantry. Phoenicians did not fight outside of elite units and the officer corps, according to my sources. They let the half-libyans fight though.
That's wrong. In both the 1st punic war and in the 'Mercenaries/Truceless war' at least (both near RTW's starting period), it is very clear that carthaginian citizenry fought (in phalanxes) in significative numbers. It was however in special occasions and it is not known if they were, at least in small numbers, present in the mainstream carthaginian armies. IMO at least a small contingent of 'doubtless' loyal soldiers must have been present to ensure the officer's corps authority in possible tense situations with the hired mercenaries.
During the 1st punic war when Regulus had Carthage ready for siege:
"For, in addition to the misfortunes I have mentioned, the Numidians, attacking them at the same time as the Romans, inflicted not less but even more damage on the country than the latter. The terror-stricken inhabitants took refuge in the city of Carthage"
...
"When the Romans saw that the Carthaginians were marching through the flat country and pitching their camps on level ground, they were surprised indeed and somewhat disturbed by this in particular, but yet were anxious on the whole to get into contact with the enemy. Acting on this authority, he[Xantippus, the 'carthaginian' gen] sent the elephants forward and drew them up in a single line in front of the whole force, placing the Carthaginian phalanx at a suitable distance behind them. Some of the mercenaries he stationed on the right wing, while the most active he placed together with the cavalry in front of both wings"
During the 'Mercenaries/Truceless war' against the Lybians+Mercs:
"Yet, although the Carthaginians were in such straits, they first of all appointed Hanno to the command; they[carthies] next busied themselves with enrolling mercenaries and arming the citizens of military age. They also mustered and drilled their civic cavalry and got ready what ships they had left, consisting of triremes, quinqueremes and the largest of their skiffs.
...
The Carthaginians, in consequence [of being traped and sieged in Carthage itself], seeing that he [Hanno] was mismanaging matters, again appointed Hamilcar Barca to the command and dispatched him to the war on hand, giving him seventy elephants, all the additional mercenaries they had been able to collect, and the deserters from the enemy, besides their burgher forces, horse and foot, so that in all he had about ten thousand men."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lybius/1*.html
Quote:
"those [romans] who had managed to force a passage through the elephants and collect in the rear of those beasts, encounted the Carthaginian phalanx quite fresh and in good order and were cut to pieces.
It resulted that in this battle the Carthaginians lost about eight hundred of the mercenaries, who had faced the Roman left wing, while of the Romans there were saved but about two thousand"
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lybius/1*.html
There is many, many more intresting information on this page btw:Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
As far as carthaginian citizen infantry goes, it was always of low quality.
Why so? Links? If you read Polybius you'll find that they excelled in the 2 campaigns I mentioned earlier. In more detail,
Against the romans, in that battle of the 1st punic war, they stood their own and got nearly 0 casualties:
"those [romans] who had managed to force a passage through the elephants and collect in the rear of those beasts, encounted the Carthaginian phalanx quite fresh and in good order and were cut to pieces.
It resulted that in this battle the Carthaginians lost about eight hundred of the mercenaries, who had faced the Roman left wing, while of the Romans there were saved but about two thousand"
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...olybius/1*.html
While in the campaign against the rebellion of Mercs + moreLybians +Numidians, they fought greatly... mercs who were no n00bs at all:
"Some of these [mercenary] troops were Iberians, some Celts, some Ligurians, and some from the Balearic islands; there were a good many Greek half-breeds, mostly deserters and slaves, but the largest portion consisted of Libyans.
...
being convinced in their arrogance, owing to their success in Sicily against the Roman legions, that not only the Carthaginians, but any other people in the world would not readily face them in arms.
...
Mathos [Lybian rebel general], having so far carried out his purpose, at once sent envoys to the Libyan towns urging them to strike a blow for liberty and imploring their support and practical assistance. Nearly all the Libyans had agreed to join in the revolt against Carthage and willingly contributed troops and supplies.
...
The Carthaginians, in consequence, seeing that he [Hanno] was mismanaging matters, again appointed Hamilcar Barca to the command and dispatched him to the war on hand, giving him seventy elephants, all the additional mercenaries they had been able to collect, and the deserters from the enemy, besides their burgher forces, horse and foot, so that in all he had about ten thousand men.
...
Spendius [roman rebel gen], on learning what had happened, put his two forces in movement to meet in the plain and render mutual assistance to each other, those from the town near the bridge being not less than ten thousand in number and those from Utica over fifteen thousand. When they got in sight of each other, thinking that they had caught the Carthaginians in a trap between them, they exhorted each other with loud shouts and engaged the enemy...About six thousand Libyans and mercenaries fell and nearly two thousand were made prisoners.
...
He [Hamilcar] next traversed the rest of the country, winning over some towns and taking others by assault.
...
Spendius, after effecting a junction with the Libyans, descended into the plain and attacked the Carthaginians. The battle was a stubborn one, but ended in the victory of Hamilcar. Autaritus and Spendius escaped, but with the loss of about ten thousand killed and four thousand prisoners.
...
A short time afterwards, collecting a picked force of mercenaries and Libyans to the number of about fifty thousand and including Zarzas the Libyan and those under his command, tried again their former plan of marching in the open parallel to the enemy and keeping a watch on Hamilcar...Autaritus, Zarzas and Spendius decided to give themselves up to the enemy and discuss terms with Hamilcar [after he outmanouvered and trapped them]... The Libyans, when they learnt of their officers' arrest, thought they had been betrayed, as they were ignorant of the treaty, and rushed to arms, but Hamilcar, surrounding them (more than forty thousand) with his elephants and the rest of his forces, cut them all to pieces. This occurred near the place called the Saw; it got this name from its resemblance to the tool so called.
...[the Lybians were still more and were sieging Carthage, when Hamilcar arrived to besiege the besieged]
They appointed a committee of thirty senators and dispatched them to Hamilcar accompanied by Hanno, the general who had previously retired from command, but now resumed it, and by all their remaining citizens of military age, whom they had armed as a sort of forlorn hope...When they were each ready to attack, they drew up their armies confronting each other and at a preconcerted signal closed. The Carthaginians gained the victory, most of the Libyans falling in the battle, while the rest escaped to a certain city and soon afterwards surrendered, but Mathos himself was taken by the enemy."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...olybius/1*.html
As you see urnamma, carthaginian citizens fought exemplarly against an OVERWHELMING outnumbering enemy who, according to Polybius, numbered up to 100.000 in total.... Hamilcar had 10.000 to start, many among them exactly 'mere' carthaginian citizens. And no, I'm not talking of the 'Sacred Band' units who were highly trained in academy-religious temples (thus also highly moralised), with the best weapons-armour available and suposedly extinct by these times ... or were they?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...9&page=2&pp=30
(probally highly outdated, but still helpful :))
Sarcasm, read what Urnamma says, up above. He is basing his unit choices on archaeological digs that he, and his colleagues, were a part of, among other things. I tend to trust his opinion, not to mention when he has physical evidence.
I was only on one dig there, to be humble. Many, many, many more people in tunisia worked on this stuff, most more than I have.
A bit off topic of the current topic, but still on topic about units and whatnot, but... will there be any helmetless warriors from barbarian factions?... I've grown kinda fond of these funny little gauls... ~:)
Ah, thanks for the FYI. Pity though, I was hoping to see some recreations of the Greco-Hellenic rumbles that took place in southern Italy prior to and including 280 BC but if you're going to keep the three playable Roman factions then I suppose it's for the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by khelvan
If this is the case I must assume you've figured out a way to overcome the collision detection/hit box problems that CA ran into when they tried to implement an overhand thrust for certain spear units? Months ago I recall some modders over at TWC tried to give spear units the same overhand animation as javelin throwers but the change actually wound up decreasing those units' killing abilities. Those modded units were hard pressed to get the same kill ratios as their underhanded counterparts, especially when fighting enemies standing at lower height/elevation than themselves.Quote:
=Urnamma]There're three types of phalanxes that will be implemented in EB.
Iphikratean (underhand spears, one handed)
Macedonian (underhand spears, two handed)
Lacadaemonian (overhand spears, one handed)
The sb uses Iphikratean phalanx formation.
Wouldn't it be realistic if an overhand phalanx would be less effecient on hilly terrain??
This mod looks absolutely amazing, keep up the good work lads! ~:cheers:
Yes. We have figured it out. No problem anymore... ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Spino