Horse Archers are BROKEN in 1.2 patch!

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

There is no Steppe in Japan. Horseback archery [ Yamusabe ] or standing archery [ Kyudo ] is treated completely differently in Japan, with the emphasis being the perfection of draw and release. Hence it is an art which is more akin to meditation.



.......Orda

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Yes, that's true. Horse archery here in Japan is treated as more of an art form than a combat skill.

Having ridden horses as a youngster bareback and without reins I can tell you, with a little practice, one can swivel, spin or whatever quite easily. I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!! ~;)
I think the anti-accuracy comments are not taking into account the fact that one would be shooting into a mass of men/horses. Sort of like hitting the side of a barn! ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

You have to change all the horse archers and chariots, elephants were unaffected by this patch. I think they shoot significantly more often then they used to but we can make up for that by tonning down their stats a bit, when I playtest them they seem to turn units into pincushions with a bit too much ease. I didn't use Horse Archers much so I'm sure how different the performance is with this fix so you guys will have to tell me if I've muffed any up seriously.

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QwertyMIDX,

Thank you for the fix. I can confirm it works on every unit I tested. All of the mounted archers are broken to some degree. All of these units seem to have some sort of failure to their animation that causes them to halt the firing sequence prematurely. My elephants also seem to stop firing for long stretches for no apparent reason after the first volley, but my first attempt at fixing them with the "thrown" attribute was unsuccessful.

Repeating the fix from Qwerty: "I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement."

List of units to search for and fix:

barb chariot light briton
barb horse archers scythian
barb horse archers slave
barb noble horse archers scythian
barb scythian noblewomen scythian
east persian cavalry
east cataphract archer
east horse archer
east chariot archer
egyptian bedouin
egyptian chariot archer
egyptian general's bodyguard early
rebel amazon chariots
merc horse archers
merc bedouin archers

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Originally Posted by Ziu

Yes, that's true. Horse archery here in Japan is treated as more of an art form than a combat skill.

Having ridden horses as a youngster bareback and without reins I can tell you, with a little practice, one can swivel, spin or whatever quite easily. I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!! ~;)
I think the anti-accuracy comments are not taking into account the fact that one would be shooting into a mass of men/horses. Sort of like hitting the side of a barn! ~:cheers:

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Having ridden horses regularly as a boy, I think the problem is that the naysayers probably have never ridden a horse... I never tried shooting from one though.

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Originally Posted by Ziu

I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!! ~;)

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I guess the main reason is one has relativelty long periods of predictable motion while at gallop (between jumps) compared to trotter.

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have. Now granted shooting into a mass of men would take away some of innacuracy problem... but those ancient horse archers certainly would have tried to stop to fire, and if being persued by cavalry, there is no possible way they could have effectively returned fire.

RH, and if they dont shoot while stopped, that would be a bug, and a bad one, i agree.

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Horse archers definitely fired on the move. Actually the cavalry pursuit shot would be fairly easy, a direct astern pursuer at a similar speed is going to be essentially a stationary target for sighting. The idea of the Parthian shot is turning loose the shot as they get close, making them a rather easy target. They are not moving laterally to you, nor diagonally.

I've fired thousands of rounds as well...and I see no reason to believe I couldn't make such a shot once practiced.

But I guess it isn't so much about what we believe *we* could do. It is what they *DID* do. And there, the historical record clearly disagrees with your opinion.

Just out of interest I happened to see a program called 'Lost Inventions' on one of the Discovery Channels over the weekend where they were trying to recreate an Assyrian war chariot. The point relevant to this thread however was when they showed Mike Loades (of Time Commanders) riding a horse bareback, controlling the beast with his thighs/knees, travelling at a fair pace (not a gallop perhaps, but a fair lick) and shooting an arrow into a target as he moved.

OK so it doesn't prove anything as such, but if a weapons historian can do it with relative ease, then you can bet your life guys born and brought up in the saddles of the Steppe could do it.

But more seriously, thanks Qwerty, I'll mod that fix in tonight.

Cheers,

Rob.

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

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That fixes the problem for me. It works for your HA as well as AI controlled HA. Nice find.

I ran a test in v1.1 and v1.2 (with the HA fix) with an Armenian horse archer with 55 men chased by an AI controlled Sacred Band Pikemen with 82 men. In v1.1, the HA got 31 kills and in v1.2 it got 10 kills using all its arrows. I think the fewer kills in v1.2 is due to the new shield effect. When I controlled the Sacred Band Pikemen and always walked, never running as the AI often does, toward the AI controlled HA, I lost 0 men.

Anyway, you are all wrong; the HA are not historically accurate as they wore a lighter shade of purple.
:D

the fact that "it happened" isnt a very good argument when dealing with simulating massed combat. Marines have shot and killed iraqis beyond 1000 yards. Would you make the effective range of modern simulation of a company of US marine infantry 1000 yards? uh no. It would be more like 100.

likewise, you cannot effectively attack from a gallop. It just hasnt happened in history. At carhae, for example, the romans were pinned down and relatively immobile. The horse archers had them surrounded and clearly would not have been firing from a gallop. napoleonic cavalry werent even issued muskets. US federal cavalry durring the indian wars and civil war dismounted to shoot. the light brigade carried swords, not guns. There is a reason for all this.

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Anyway, you are all wrong; the HA are not historically accurate as they wore a lighter shade of purple.
:D

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Lol! ~:)

Can you provide a source that confirms your theories Sam?

......Orda

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

the fact that "it happened" isnt a very good argument when dealing with simulating massed combat. Marines have shot and killed iraqis beyond 1000 yards. Would you make the effective range of modern simulation of a company of US marine infantry 1000 yards? uh no. It would be more like 100.

likewise, you cannot effectively attack from a gallop. It just hasnt happened in history. At carhae, for example, the romans were pinned down and relatively immobile. The horse archers had them surrounded and clearly would not have been firing from a gallop. napoleonic cavalry werent even issued muskets. US federal cavalry durring the indian wars and civil war dismounted to shoot. the light brigade carried swords, not guns. There is a reason for all this.

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Sam, the historical accounts refer to the Parthians, for example, as a whole, they don't say "Oh, and there was one really good Parthian warrior who could... etc, etc, etc, yadda, yadda, yadda."

Since you weren't present at these historical events how can you possibly say "It just hasnt happened in history." given that you have no proof? The people opposing your viewpoint at least have the proof of eyewitness accounts.

And why would horse archers 'clearly' not shoot on the gallop against an immobile foe? If the Romans had even one missile-armed soldier left, no horseman in his right mind is going to want to do anything other than gallop to reduce the chance of being hit by return fire.

And certain Napoleonic cavalry were issued with dragoon muskets or carbines, as well as long-barreled pistols. The problem wasn't so much the accuracy - which muskets are bad at anyway - but that it's very difficult to reload a muzzle-loader on horseback.

US cavalry often fought from foot due to a tactical doctrine that recognized the accuracy of rifled firearms plus until the end of the war the ability to reload on horseback was still hampered.

The Light Brigade followed the same pattern as the US cavalry and were in any case attempting to take the guns, which required them to charge home - in such circumstances any cavalryman of the era would be likely favor the sword over their one-shot firearms.

There're your reasons.

Could you please possibly consider - especially given some of the personalities who are disagreeing with you - that your opinion might just be wrong, that history and even personal experience in one case might just be right.

Sam,

Your analogy falls apart for one simple reason: In the Civil War both sides carried ranged weapons for their main forces, infantry and cavalry. A rifle is not particularly well set up for mounted fighting, and far less so until metallic cartridges with enclosed primers became available. Many early rifled muskets had a reload sequence that largely precluded use from the saddle. Dismounting was done primarily because a man on horseback was a rather big target. Cavalry alone could not beat infantry at the time because they were cut down too rapidly by rifle fire. Much early Civil War cavalry fighting was done in the saddle with saber and pistol, and proved rather ineffective. Napoleonic cavalry tactics were clearly out of date with the improved weaponry. This changed to mounted infantry where the cavalry was used to move into key positions and fight like infantry, and even dig in to hold briefly until infantry support arrived to relieve them. Cavalry charges became rare except when catching the enemy by surprise or other mitigating circumstances.

The horse archer cultures had to win tribal warfare and hunt game. This they did mounted, and they could shoot at the gallop. This makes them tougher defensively, and offensively. If you couldn't shoot while moving, you were at a disadvantage. At long range, arrows can be dodged. Bullets on the other hand...

I have to agree. I can't get horse archers to shoot arrows very often and I can't get elephant archers to shoot at all!!!!! :help:

After there's been enough testing to show that Qwerty's fix doesn't have any bad side effects on non-skirmishing combat, such as firing from a distance, that needs to be put in a fix and posted somewhere.

At the very least, it appears to be a big step in the right direction. Thanks, QwertyMIDX.

I would like to see some historical reports of horse archers firing en masse while galloping durring battle. No, carrhae isnt one of them.

Ammianus........'of incredible swiftness they ride, returning to battle to unleash their arrows'

Zosimus......'they wrought immense slaughter by wheeling, charging, retreating in good time and all the while firing from their horses'

Sidonius.......'Shapely bows and arrows are their delight, sure and terrible are their hands; firm is their confidence that their missiles will bring death and their frenzy is trained to do wrongful deeds with swift blows that never go wrong'

......Orda

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

the fact that "it happened" isnt a very good argument when dealing with simulating massed combat. Marines have shot and killed iraqis beyond 1000 yards. Would you make the effective range of modern simulation of a company of US marine infantry 1000 yards? uh no. It would be more like 100.

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When I qualified for the Army on my M16 two years ago I hit 39 out of 40 targets ranging from 50 meters to 300. The one I missed was due to getting sand in my weapon.

I have never shot anything else in my life. (Hey, I'm a female who just does occupational therapy for the Army.)

Marines from what I remember qualify on ranges that are 500 meters.

Aside from being wrong, how is this relevant? Did you watch the video CBR provided?

If you can consistently hit a man-size target at 300m with an M16 then I'd say you're a good shot (male or female) and I've fired many more weapons than the M16. I'm not a good shot myself without a scope and prefered closer ranges and an AK-47 or longer ranges and a .50cal.

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Originally Posted by SpencerH

If you can consistently hit a man-size target at 300m with an M16 then I'd say you're a good shot (male or female) and I've fired many more weapons than the M16.

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I think I might've benefited from never having shot before. Alot of the soldiers there who came from more rural areas who had experiance 'back home' with 22s and such might've picked up bad habits learning on their own and such.

Maybe focusing on one weapon helps, too. It also doesn't hurt that the targets are stationary, they contrast well with their background, and you don't have to worry about having to shoot the second you see the target or about missing a few of the targets.

Incidentally, Proletariat, how did you clean the sand from your gun quickly enough to hit the next target? I'd've thought you'd have missed at least two or three. I mean, I know they must have trained you to clean your gun quickly, and you presumably didn't have to take the thing apart to get out the sand, but still.

Wait, what was the topic again?

-Simetrical

Sam, there are and have been since the earliest days of Shogun, a vociferous group of Mongolphiles here in the org. They believe that the mounted archer was the greatest weapon system of the pre-gunpowder era. By suggesting that steppe warriors were not gods of war to a man you have essentially peed in their Wheaties. I see where you're coming from. We used to discuss the skills of a typical samurai in the same way. Some people thought they were all magicians with a sword and others considered that the average guy was more pedestrian than mystical with a blade. How good was the typical horse archer? Who knows?

In combat all they had to do was fire into a teeming mass of men/horses, as Ziu has pointed out. Clearly they were good enough to cause untold havoc with compound bows doing just that. So the efficacy of the weapon system as such is not really debatable. They were not likely all Zen marksmen nor did they need to be. I suspect that some were pretty damn good though. If this was their life’s work they would have mastered it.

Setting the stat_pri_attr attribute to “throw” did indeed enable HA to skirmish nicely without being in a circle. I have always used the cantabrian circle a lot because it seemed to work the best. Maybe now I won't need it as often.

Hats off to QwertyMIDX.

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Originally Posted by Nelson

Sam, there are and have been since the earliest days of Shogun, a vociferous group of Mongolphiles here in the org. They believe that the mounted archer was the greatest weapon system of the pre-gunpowder era. By suggesting that steppe warriors were not gods of war to a man you have essentially peed in their Wheaties.

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Yes, I forgot to mention that. A typical Mongol horse archer could empty his bladder into a bowl of Wheaties on the ground while riding by at a full gallop. Thanks for reminding me, Nelson.

(Everybody does realize that's a joke, right?)

Seriously, this silly little argument has lead me to some great stuff. Check out this and this. I'm going to buy this guy's book. His name is Lajos Kassai, he's from Hungary, and he's apparently the Guinness Book of World Records holder for most shot fired accurately from a galloping horse.

I hate Horse Archers...

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Originally Posted by Simetrical

Incidentally, Proletariat, how did you clean the sand from your gun quickly enough to hit the next target? I'd've thought you'd have missed at least two or three.

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The army uses the acronym SPORTS

Slap (tap the magazine upwards)
Pull (pull the charge back to open the chamber and release the stuck round)
Observe (look in the chamber to see what's stuck/jammed/sandy)
Release (let the charge slam back forward)
Squeeze (pull the trigger and see if you got it going)

I'm almost positive that's how it went, but it has been a little while.

I could probably do this in 20-30 seconds, it sounds harder than it is. I had a Filipino drill sergeant who could do this whole process and actually catch the round as it flew out. ~:eek: It was astonishing to watch.


Oh yeah! The thread! Thank you very much, Qwerty! ~D

Darn, the fact that horse archers could fire on the move was my fav. bit of RTW. I always thought horse archers of the steppes ought to be able to do it.

With regards to the historical accuracy of this, James Chambers states that the trick to keep arrows relatively accurate was to loose the arrow when all four of the horse's legs were in the air. That minimises shaking and bouncing. As someone pointed out, it's easier to shoot at a gallop than at a trot. I don't think this is specific to the Mongolians, or even to the inhabitants of the Asian Steppes. I believe the Native Americans used mounted archers as well.

I think it's quite clear that shooting from a moving horse is, if nothing else, possible for a significant number of people. I think it's also clear that it's possible to be reasonably accurate at it (witness modern day horseback archery demonstrations). And I do think that if people can do it now, then surely those who grew up in that kind of culture could do it then.

Accuracy probably didn't matter that much. When you have 60 foot archers firing into a blob of enemy, you don't need pinpoint accuracy. Likewise for mounted archers.

What I think is the crux of this argument is whether or not shooting from a moving horse is reasonably possible. Giving examples where this didn't happen doesn't work, because all that's needed is one example to show that it did to prove that it's possible and probable that it did happen.

What may help is looking at the situation and time period. Some cultures never used mounted archers. Anywhere with lots of obstructions, like trees and the like, would never use them. In an era where guns were becoming widely used, but still difficult to load, mounted shooters wouldn't be used. Like all activities, horse archers had their time and place, and you're going to have to look at that time and place to see if it's possible or not.

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

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You must be JOKING. Look at how the Mongols and Native Americans could fire their bows/rifles from horseback! Probably better than most people could standing still! The sport of horse archery still exists, btw.
Check this out:www.horsebows.com/bows

im not debating the usefullness of extremely mobile archers.

Im just saying that when suddenly charged and coming about to quickely fall back, while riding perhaps the bumpiest form of transportation known to man, its not likely that you would be releasing arrows.

Just got some new books today. Interesting things relative to the topic although I haven't had a chance to read much yet:

A Scythian coin showing King Atai firing his bow forward with horse clearly at a gallop. (He died in battle vs. the Macedonians in 339 BC at the age of 90.)

A relief in Ashurnasirpal's palace at Nimrud shows a "Parthian shot" on the run by some horse archer fleeing Assyrian cavalry--probably Median. Interestingly he is depicted early in his draw with vertical aim angle of about 30 degrees. (Assyrian 11th century BC?)

Also an Assyrian relief of fleeing Arab camel nomads (two per camel), with rear archer firing at pursuing Assyrian cavalry who are firing forward at them.

Some sort of illustration showing the battle of Ulai River with forward firing Assyrian horse archer shooting at Elamites and driving them into the river ~655 BC.

A wall painting from Dura Europos 2-3rd century AD showing a forward firing horse archer.

Also graffiti from Dura Europos showing another forward firing horse archer.

All of the horses in the above appear to be moving much faster than a walk. I'll accept these contemporary "movies" over a modern person's conjecture about what is possible to do from a horse.

greek coins have pictures of achilles and zeus on them.

doesnt meen they existed, does it?

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

im not debating the usefullness of extremely mobile archers.

Im just saying that when suddenly charged and coming about to quickely fall back, while riding perhaps the bumpiest form of transportation known to man, its not likely that you would be releasing arrows.

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I kind of agree with this... It depends very much on the circumstances. I know the Mongolians went a lot faster than their European counterparts, so they could withdraw in good order, shooting as they went (while still being on the move, though...) Anyone know if they were able to do the same thing while being pursued by cavalry forces as fast as them?

The longest range kill in history was 2,400 meters.

Canadian sniper in Afghanistan.

He could kill your general from the campaign map.

that was with a barrets .50 that regular infantry dont get.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=28572467

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have. Now granted shooting into a mass of men would take away some of innacuracy problem... but those ancient horse archers certainly would have tried to stop to fire, and if being persued by cavalry, there is no possible way they could have effectively returned fire.

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Firearms are not the same as bows. Recoil effects are different and ballistics are different.

Also, I would ask if you have practiced mounted gunfire every day of your life and relied upon it for a large part of your sustenance. The people who used this method of fighting, historically, practiced mounted archery as a way of life - not simply a hobby.

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

napoleonic cavalry werent even issued muskets. US federal cavalry durring the indian wars and civil war dismounted to shoot. the light brigade carried swords, not guns. There is a reason for all this.

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What has Napoleonic cavalry got to do with this?
Shall we also discuss the fact that cavalry in the 19th century were issued with firearms? ~:handball:

As for firing black powder muskets from horseback, do a little reading about the Metis. :book:

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

greek coins have pictures of achilles and zeus on them.

doesnt meen they existed, does it?

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I guess that means that nothing depicted on coins or in sculpture ever existed.

You remind me of my little brother as a kid, sticking his fingers in his ears and singing or humming loudly if someone tried to tell him something he didn't want to believe or hear. We know that later horse archers did these feats you find so impossible. We know that modern day riders can also do them (I've seen video of several.) We have written historical accounts of this. And we have reliefs going back at least to 1000 BC that regularly show people doing this on both horses and camels.

But I think we should reject all that evidence, and listen to the guy singing with his fingers in his ears. :no: :no: :no:

We really need a horse archer smiley for this topic.

God this sucks!! i feel that i been sitting here reading all these posts from start to finish here.....my azz is sore :embarassed: well anyway when is the team gonna fix this major lamer bug for HA? cause now i not wanna play any of the HA factions or even play against them cause the fun has been taken out :embarassed:

legends and sporting events do not make real combat tactics, red harvest. Do you honestly think that horse archers could be effective in that sudden moment when they are required to turn and flee to avoid persuit? no, it just isnt realistic.

Sam, with the risk of this sounding sardonic, could you please provide some historical facts or references that support your point? So far, you have used nothing but conjecture and feebly related examples to reach your opinion.

:thinking2:

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

legends and sporting events do not make real combat tactics, red harvest. Do you honestly think that horse archers could be effective in that sudden moment when they are required to turn and flee to avoid persuit? no, it just isnt realistic.

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Granted that when charged by cavalry there would have been a great incentive to focus on the riding rather than the firing. However, consider that when being charged the horse archers would likely have had quite a head start so would have been able to concentrate on firing anyway. And when being charged by foot troops the horse obviously has quite the edge in speed, so again the riders would have been able to concentrate on firing.

These civilisations (for want of a better word) grew up in the saddle. They would have been on horseback since they could walk. They would have been using bows for a similar length of time. The riding would be second nature. The arrow fire would be very effective as disruptive fire - let's face it, would the charging troops be keen to get an arrow in the face?

While we can all accept that battle reports of the time would probably have been subject to some embellishment, I think you should take a bit of time to consider that people of the past may just have been quite competent at this sort of thing.

Cheers,

Rob.

Personally I do not mind that the Archers dont ride and shoot, I just kill them anyway and never play them. lol

But on a serious note, its true that ancient Horse archers DID shoot while riding. I also have a tape on the history alive that also has experts stating this. Infact AandE.com has a DVD called Barbarians, in it, it speaks of Horse archers and firing while riding, Something with the Bow allowing this.

The reason CA removed this is clear, there was a problem in the game and especially MP that made them moving machineguns. lol People in MP games built ARMIES of HA's and were winning, since the vanilla archers are overpowered they just removed the feature to fire while moving unless javelins. Makes sense to fix a problem that many complained about with Multiplayer.

Someone says this can be fixed by adding thrown, and that is probably true, but the side effects are unknown.

Also Elephants DO fire while moving, while balancing SPQR mod, I noticed the Elephant Archers firing while moving many times, not just the first time then stop. They do fire LESS though, I did notice this. The most likely changed the animations.

Pilums fire faster thank goodness!

Hope this helps, I only read a few posts since I know all I want to know already on the M16E4. lol

Lt1956

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

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Originally Posted by Bhruic

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

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THat's kind of why I stayed away from this one.

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Originally Posted by Bhruic

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

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OK, say no more :lipsrsealed2:

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

If the altered stat fixes the archers, and it seems it does, that's fine, but CA should issue an updated patch that fixes this, and fixes it properly, anyway. There may also be improvements to multiplayer connectivity that can be made, and the building browser scoll bug that could be fixed.

Hate to jump on the band wagon (and apologies for repeating this if its been already said), but Sam- where did you get the notion that napoleonic horsemen didnt carry muskets?? many light cavelry carried carbines- Shortened because there was a need for light horse to have a long arm, but the full length musket was difficult to draw and fire FROM HORSEBACK.

Granted they wouldnt have been that accurate (but then neither was a normal musket) and may not have fired on the move much, but still a long way from "Napoleonic cavalry didnt carry muskets".

On another note- kudos to all who have sorted the patch issues ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Ginger

Hate to jump on the band wagon (and apologies for repeating this if its been already said), but Sam- where did you get the notion that napoleonic horsemen didnt carry muskets?? many light cavelry carried carbines- Shortened because there was a need for light horse to have a long arm, but the full length musket was difficult to draw and fire FROM HORSEBACK.

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Werent they 'specialist' units i.e. carabiners? I dont think other cav types such as dragoons or lancers carried firearms.

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

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Hear, hear.

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

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I have yet to find any major problems with it for the 15 camel/chariot/horse archers.

For elephants it doesn't really seem to fix things. They tend to fire once on the move, then they stop firing. If you issue another movement or attack command they fire once again, then stop. Rinse, repeat. Elephants seem to be different since they lack a skirmish mode.

I thought that a variety of light cavalry troops including dragoons carried carbines at one point or another, but ill wind my neck in as i am really not that well versed in cavalry stuff.

anyway, to elephants, here here!! ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I have yet to find any major problems with it for the 15 camel/chariot/horse archers.

For elephants it doesn't really seem to fix things. They tend to fire once on the move, then they stop firing. If you issue another movement or attack command they fire once again, then stop. Rinse, repeat. Elephants seem to be different since they lack a skirmish mode.

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That's a problem. Elephants don't have skirmish nor Cantabrian circle.

Also, elephants have reversed alt-attack - clicking without alt actually causes a melee attack, unlike the rest of the mounted archers. However, the stat_pri is still for arrows. I tried changing both attacks to thrown, but it didn't help.

If anybody, folks up on the elephants should be able to shoot to their heart's desire. It definitively leads me to believe that this was a "tweak" and not a bug, a flawed solution to make the HA/elephants/etc. less "overpowering". A bit silly really, just like the battlescarred trait showing up after every battle, even when the general never did any fighting, to make the generals more durable (btw, has anyone managed to find the fix for this one yet??).

Whereas a file change will 'fix' the problem, that is all very well if you only play SP. Online games require all to have same stats.

It's not Horse Archers that are broken, RTW is broken!

.....Orda

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Originally Posted by Ginger

I thought that a variety of light cavalry troops including dragoons carried carbines at one point or another, but ill wind my neck in as i am really not that well versed in cavalry stuff.

anyway, to elephants, here here!! ~:cheers:

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Most cavalry carried carbines and other short firearms in addition to pistols etc but they were neither trained nor expected to fire on the move or even from the saddle. The weapons were issued purely to increase the flexibility of cavalry units so they could tackle infantry in cover if necessary eg when on patrol etc.

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Originally Posted by hrvojej

Also, elephants have reversed alt-attack - clicking without alt actually causes a melee attack, unlike the rest of the mounted archers. However, the stat_pri is still for arrows. I tried changing both attacks to thrown, but it didn't help.

If anybody, folks up on the elephants should be able to shoot to their heart's desire. It definitively leads me to believe that this was a "tweak" and not a bug, a flawed solution to make the HA/elephants/etc. less "overpowering".

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I doubt it was intentional. It looks like something is accidentally halting the sequence and restarting it. The key is that they aren't even firing when they stop (horse archers in skirmish or elephants period.) In skirmish the HA's will go through the whole sequence while stopped, and I hear the sound of arrows, but none are fired, then they run away. Every once in awhile they actually fire.

They had to work on the FF code and the pri/sec bug, and before I could not get HA's to quit targeting nearby enemies (and my own men) when they were being charged off elsewhere. I suspect they just didn't do a thorough enough check.

Any of the beta testers still able to run the beta .EXE and see if this is a result of the pri/sec bug fix, or if it was present in the beta?

Running some tests on this in custom battle using both Parthians and Sycthians (spelling?) I have found a few things...

1. HA will fire while on the move...

2. But (and it is a big but) if they are in skirmish mode and are moving away from the enemy then they will not fire, until they have reached minimum safe distance... In my tests the HA would fire at the unit approaching it until it was close enough that they skirmished away and then when they reached a safe distance would start the firing animation again. But if the troops chasing them are running the HA would have not have enough time to actually fire before having to skirmish away again...

3. HA will not fire directly to the rear, I found a effective tactic to deal with a unit of troops chasing HA is to have them zig zagging across in front allowing the HA to fire...

4. The Cantibarian Circle (spelling?) is still very effect and HA in skirmish mode using the CC work fine...

5. Another little observation was that HA seem particularly affected by the new anti FF stuff (logical considering they were highly effected by FF original). I think this mean that a lot of the time the volumn of fire you get out of a unformed unit of HA is quite low...

No conclusions there just observations but I would like to hear other's opinions...

FYI the archers on Carthaginian War Elephants have been working fine for me in 1.2 - both stationary and while marching/running. I killed 2000 units in a seige with it, so there is no question about it. I haven't checked specifically to see if the arrows affect the targets while the mount is engaged in combat, but I believe it is. Haven't encountered HAs yet in 1.2.

- nickersonm

my war elephants fire as long as their target isnt directly at their feet.

I didn't have any problems with War Elephants either. I will check it out more carefully later.

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

After there's been enough testing to show that Qwerty's fix doesn't have any bad side effects on non-skirmishing combat, such as firing from a distance, that needs to be put in a fix and posted somewhere.

At the very least, it appears to be a big step in the right direction. Thanks, QwertyMIDX.

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what is the name of the file he is teawkin on? i was thinking on doing this,
uninstall rtw 1.2 and delete the remaining rtw folder and reinstall the rtw game and then make a copy of the whole game by winraring it and renaming the rtw winrar to rtw_backup and then install the 1.2 patch to the reinstalled game,and then unzip the rtw_backup and use the file for the HA or arrows and move it to the rtw1.2,you think this will work guys?

you can have the rtw_backup "unpatched"as a cross between files? for the 1.2
something in a way i made the spartan hoplite at the official rtw webbie 1.2 compatible by deleting the 4 spartan hoplite .rum files

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Originally Posted by {Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}

what is the name of the file he is teawkin on? i was thinking on doing this,
uninstall rtw 1.2 and delete the remaining rtw folder and reinstall the rtw game and then make a copy of the whole game by winraring it and renaming the rtw winrar to rtw_backup and then install the 1.2 patch to the reinstalled game,and then unzip the rtw_backup and use the file for the HA or arrows and move it to the rtw1.2,you think this will work guys?

you can have the rtw_backup "unpatched"as a cross between files? for the 1.2
something in a way i made the spartan hoplite at the official rtw webbie 1.2 compatible by deleting the 4 spartan hoplite .rum files

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Eh?

It's only one file that needs changing - just back that one up. Have I missed the point?

So, I've been away a few weeks and the patch is out. Nice!
Horse Archers are now broken again? How could that happen?
I mean I was really surprised to see them "really" work in the vanilla version. Other HorseArcher-Fans like Doug agreed with me that it's the first time CA did them right. It was a pain to nanny them in M:TW. Medieval MP was nearly impossible to win with muslim factions due to this. What a joy it was to see them do the Parthian Shot, finally shooting on the move with working skirmish-engine etc, etc.
Now that these features are gone, I don't think I'll even touch the game any more although I was looking forward to playtest the new features, repaired bugs. Instead I'm going to play some more Pirates!
Also nice to see that the historical question, if HA could shoot while moving, still isn't clear. :wall:
Well, it's not that this question was discussed before, is it?


Gah!

I gave the 'stat_primary_attr' fix a try by changing the variable from 'no' to 'thrown' for all mounted archer units (war & armored elephants excepted) and it worked like a charm! Set up a Parthia vs. Seleucid battle and the Horse Archers and Persian Cavalry cleaned house, no more fudged archery and the Parthian shot now works like it should. The good news is the bow reloading and firing animation is the same as before.

Thanks for the fix!

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

Whereas a file change will 'fix' the problem, that is all very well if you only play SP. Online games require all to have same stats.

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True.

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

I didn't have any problems with War Elephants either. I will check it out more carefully later.

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They will fire once while moving, then not fire again while moving. If you issue more commands, they will begin firing again, but left to themselves, they stop firing. It has the looks of a "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" sort of problem. When you mouse hover over them it says nothing about firing/reloading etc, except for the first volley. After that the archers just stand there.

Can also confirm that applying Qwerty's excellent fix for the HA's to War/Armoured Elephants doesn't make a blind bit of difference to their behaviour. As Red Harvest said, they fire one volley per move command. Like the HA bug they do have a little bow and arow icon on the unit card, but just don't fire after that first volley.

Ooops....

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Originally Posted by Jambo

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

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where is the file so i can add this fix :book:

It's export desc units (or something with those words).

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Originally Posted by {Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}

what is the name of the file he is teawkin on? i was thinking on doing this . . .

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Sorry, wouldn't work. The change is probably in RTW.exe, and we can do very little to modify that (at least, those of us who aren't good at assembly). You could try using the 1.1 RTW.exe, but that would eliminate all the important changes that the patch made. If the problem isn't in the EXE, it might possibly be in the animations, which would be fairly easy to edit, but I really kinda doubt it.

-Simetrical

To beat a dead horse: I was intrigued by the argument about whether or not horse archers actually fired on the move, and I discovered two things during the past half hour on the Web:

1. It seems that at least some horse archers, Mongols in particular, use a caracol technique whereby they would run up into range of the enemy, fire, then wheel around and reload while galloping away, rinse and repeat. I read about some Middle-Eastern horse archers that would run up with three arrows knocked on their bows, fire all three, turn and reload three more arrows while turning, and then fire three more while heading away from the enemy. This would in effect cause each horseman to rush into range and fire six arrows, then quickly be out of range again. I have no idea how accurate any of this information is or how widely it applies to different cultures of this era, but I thought it was interesting. (And I only looked at sites that appeared to be of academic standards. I ignored gamer sites altogether.)

2. I found this really fascinating discussion of the Parthians: http://www.iranchamber.com/history/p...thian_army.php


This was quite interesting as well: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/...trategikon.htm

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

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thanks QwertyMIDX i'm going to test this,and what about the egyption chariot archers and the britsh archer chariots? do the same for them?
and what of the elephant archers? ~:confused:

I know it works for the chariots, I havent tried it on the Elephants, one day I will get around to it.

It worked like a charm QwertyMIDX ~:) all the HA factions and the archer chariots and the "Elephants" all worked very good :charge:
i tried a test for mp but none of the games were compatible :(
you gotta get your fix for the HA chariots and elephants to the attention of the rtw ppl somehow so they can maybe use it for a patch.

cheers QwertyMIDX and very good work! ~:cheers:

I've finally been able to build a unit that would be effected by this problem and found none. I built carthaginian war elephants. I told them to attack a rebel unit (the sword icon was showing when over the enemy unit- which is odd) and they moved forward while firing (when in range). They only inflicted 3 casualties on skirmishers before the battle ended but arrows continued to fly through the air. Its unclear how many flights of arrows caused the casualties i.e. it may have looked like the war elephants were firing but the casualty calcs may not have been done. I find it hard to imagine how so few casualties could have been inflicted.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

QwertyMIDX,

List of units to search for and fix:

barb chariot light briton
barb horse archers scythian
barb horse archers slave
barb noble horse archers scythian
barb scythian noblewomen scythian
east persian cavalry
east cataphract archer
east horse archer
east chariot archer
egyptian bedouin
egyptian chariot archer
egyptian general's bodyguard early
rebel amazon chariots
merc horse archers
merc bedouin archers

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Is the list completed ? Alt + attack doesn't work with war elephants. :dizzy2:

Considering put this alteration in myself...

Has anyone seen any other side effects of doing this? Any odd behaviours?

I haven't been able to make elephants work right with or without "thrown." I even changed a war elephant to class "missile" last night (to see if it would get the "skirmish" trait) but it didn't.

With the elephants it is really odd because the animation of the archers freezes until a new order is issued or until they come to a stop, enter combat etc. It looks really strange...