Research: Fixes for bugs in the unit file

I know that, but full picture is important, including custom battles.

About 4th level greek barracks (another hypothesis):

Maybe it was supposed to be to get 1exp holpites with 3rd level barracks and armoured hoplites with 4th level barracks? (effectively a nerf to greeks, resembles numidian infantry progression)

Anyway, the way it is now, 4th level barracks are useless outside Sparta and Syracuse (at least you get the pigs with stables upgrade).

Ok, Merc Bastarnae and Desert Axeman should change their armor sound from metal to flesh.

Any other bug offender?



P.S.
I think I saw some units that have flesh, but look like having leather armor, but I think it's too minor to bother (and sometimes looks just can be wrong). I think just big offenders need to be chnaged (like metal to flesh).

Let's see...
Iberian Infantry, Scutaii and Spanish Mercenaries all appear wearing same armor (leather + metal plate in the middile, Hastai used similar thing).
Iberian Infantry is labeled as flesh, Spanish Mercenary as leather and Scutarii as metal.

In this case I think it is pretty harmless to be a bug, since units with this type of armor can easily be hit in flesh (arms and legs not protected), leather or metal plate.

But isn't it kinda big move to beef up/or tone down stats and costs of units, for a simple fix-patch that should stick to the core. I mean if are going to do that there are many other inconsistancies then just two general units.

Keep in mind thaty in case those 2 units cost adjustemnt would be around +/-100gp.

Thracian to cost of early greek general (making it almost indentical unit), pontus to cost of late greek general (having good shield instead of armor).

I'm just not keen on making such chnages, for this of patch, since it requires good eye for balance and personal judment, something I would be more inclined to do when moding.

I would rather go hunting just pure bugs that have 100% accurate solution.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Flesh, leather, metal. General rule is:

Flesh = 0, 1, 2 armour
Leather = 3, 4 armour
Metal = 5 or greater armour

There is a set of exceptions that is noteworthy--many pikemen and hoplites are often getting a "leather" sound despite having 6 armour. Elephants (including cataphract) are getting a flesh sound despite high armour ratings.

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If we are going to change any I'm only in for fixing the extremes (why bother with many small inconsistencies you won't notice in the game).

Like completly naked units with metal descptor (Desert Axement, Mern Bastarnae).

The reson why I advocate "change the little" aproach too often is that I would like to keep "core rules compatilbity".

For example, it's resonable that Deset Axemen should have no armor and get AP capability, like it's Desert Horsemen equivalent.

But, that would pretty much make most of already written strategies in using Desert Axemen useless, wouldn't it?

Any other opinions on highest level greek barracks problem?

Solutions:
1) small greek boost: +1exp armored hoplites instead oridinary +1exp hoplites
(triarii model)
2) big greek nerf: +1exp hoplites at 3rd level, armored hoplites delayed till 4rd level
(numidian model)
3) the way it is (useless 4th level barracks, exmept in Sparta and Syracuse)
4) something else?

I would really like this one moved from status quo.

I think 1st and 3rd option are the closest in keeping rules compatibility (with 3rd not fixing anything), while it is pretty likely that at one point 2nd option could've been the way that CA planned, but switched 3rd and 4th level barrack benefits (armored hoplites are a bit powerful for 3rd level barracks).

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I didn't say anything about changing these particular stats, I was merely pointing out the rules that appear to have been used to apply the factor. QUIT PANICKING! The sound is a secondary thing that at one time at least appears to have been tied only to armour level (for primary armour stats.) Did CA originally set many hoplites/phalanx to about 4 armour, then later raise them to 6 for game balancing before 1.0 was released? That is where I would put my money.

There is no "core rules compatibility" as you seem to view it. CA made quite a few changes to the core rules in 1.2 without rebalancing the game. The pri/sec bug removal took away 4 attack from all (or at least) pila units, yet CA did nothing to rebalance the factions. FF fixes made skirmishers useful, hidden morale changes made elephants more manageable. Phalanx effects vs. cav got nerfed. Spear vs. pike effect was changed, and cav charge vs. sword units was reduced from what I can tell.

The "change nothing" approach of digging in your heels to EVERY comment is beyond irritating.

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Ok, don't panic...

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

It is odd that you advocate no changes for the obvious on one hand, and then on the other propose this. To me, this is clearly out in the modding region because there is no obvious error. I vote 3.

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You got me there. ~;)

But, it does seam strage to have top level barracks give effectively nothing, doesn't it?
+1exp Hoplites serve no purpose at that time, don't they?

The more I think about it, the more I think that armored hoplites were supposed to be 4th level units and +1Hoplites 3rd level units.

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As for previous, post, there is a difference between official patch, unofficial community bug-fixer.
You won't expect from someone to make a strategy guide by referencing changes done in non-official bug-fixer mod.

EDIT:
Is it so bad to make two versions of fixes? One more liberal and one more conservative?

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Looking back in the thread, I saw this mistake and do not think anyone addressed it. The base chariot unit size is 9 in all three cases. They are indeed all the same size, just like elephants are all the same size units. Bodyguard chariots have a base size of 6 for Egypt, and 9 for Briton. The post above confused rider count with the chariot count (and you also have to use 2x for large unit size but this was a given.) Chariot units fight on a per chariot basis, with hit points per chariot. Bodyguard sizes often differ from regular unit size.

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I corrected myself few posts lower.

Hope everyone enjoyed their weekend :barrel:. A few specific points:

Eastern Heavy Spearmen
I agree with all the above, they shouldn't have a mount bonus when fighting with their secondary weapons (it looks like this was last minute dithering about how this unit and phalanx is a harder to miss) so the mount bonus is a bug and should be removed.

Greek barracks
I don't have a problem with the highest-tier only adding exp unless you've got the Sparta resource. The highest-level Roman barracks don't add anything until the Marian Reforms. I don't think this should be changed.

Arcani
Who knows what these guys should be like? Without direct comparables it's very hard to say that, yes, any part of them is definitely a bug. Unless we can say that for definite, I don't think we should alter it in this patch.

Right, onto the main topic:

Discrepancies between unit stats, graphics and descriptions (Merc Bedouin Archers, Thracian bodyguard, Pontic etc. etc. etc.)
As back on page 1, when we covered this in relation to Desert Axemen and Pharoah's Guard, it is clear that the unit graphics and the unit stats were developed independently and when it was all brought together not everything matched up. Ideally, these discrepancies shouldn't exist, but in trying to correct them we are left with a choice - do we make the stats fit the graphic or the graphic fit the stats?

Changing the graphic is beyond the scope of this patch.

Changing the unit stats to fit the graphic inevitably leads us into judgemental areas:
eg, a unit does not appear to have a shield, and yet it has a shield attribute, do we?
- remove the shield attribute and otherwise leave it unchanged?
- remove the shield and add armour or defence points? If so, in what ratio?
- adjust the costing of the unit for any of the above?

I agree with Red Harvest's hypothesis that the unit costing was probably originally derived from a formula based on some of the attributes, with subsequent adjustments being made. The point that player1 was making was that if we believe this to be correct then the unit costing is correct for the stats - whether the stats themselves are inconsistent or otherwise. This means that any changes to the significant stats (unit size, weapons, armour/defence/shield) will require us to change the unit costing.

So, even in the case where we were to remove a factor (such as a shield) then there would still be judgement made in how to recost the unit.

therother's scope for this patch was, as he said, to compile a list of fixes that would be completely uncontroversial. Ultimately, he's going to make his choice about what that includes, but I would assert that nothing which involves recosting the unit can ever be completely uncontroversial.:saint:

I say we proceed like this, start drawing up what we would consider would fall within this uncontroversial list and then we can start brainstorming :idea3: about resolving these graphics/stats balancing and costing issues in preparation for a second 'WYSIWYG' patch, because I'd ideally like my game to make sense as well.:grin2:

Here's my opinion on the listing of fixes for the first 'uncontroversial' patch:
1) Seleucids should only be able to build armoured elephants in provinces with the elephant resource.
2) Praetorian cohorts should be limited to post-Marian period.
3) Thracian pikemen should not disappear from their third tier barrack.
4) Remove reference Gaul naked fanatics from farming temples when Gauls are unable to build farming temples.
5) Spain should have the ability to build longshield cavalry in the campaign as they do in custom battles.
6) Spain should have the ability to build onagers in the campaign as they do in custom battles.
7) Horse archers (et al.) should be able to move and fire.
8) Upgraded general units for Scythia and Pontus should be activated by Marian reforms.
9) Spanish family members should wear brown and not blue.
10) Mercenary horse archers should appear in Armenia.
11) Sarmatian mercenaries should have their mount effects.
12) Illyrian mercenaries should have their mount effects.
13) Rebel archer unit should not have a Briton chosen swordsman as officer.
14) Seleucid legionaries should have mass 1.3.
15) Bastarnae mercenaries should have mass 1.2.
Edit - pig & dog resource apparently do not work as other resources and therefore this 'fix' dropped 16) The pig and wardog units should only be recruitable in provinces with the pig and dog resource respectively.
17) Eastern Heavy Spearmen should not have their mount effects.
18) Bastarnae mercenaries and Desert Axemen should have their 'metal' armour sound changed to flesh (as I believe this effects only the sound).

What are other people's lists? :deal2:

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Greek barracks
I don't have a problem with the highest-tier only adding exp unless you've got the Sparta resource. The highest-level Roman barracks don't add anything until the Marian Reforms. I don't think this should be changed.

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Actually, highest level roman barracks give +1exp Triarii (that why I labeled first fix options as Triarii model)

Highest level greek barracks, outside Sparta only give +1exp hoplites with doesn't serve any purpose since armored hoplites are much better.

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Here's my opinion on the listing of fixes for the first 'uncontroversial' patch:
1) Seleucids should only be able to build armoured elephants in provinces with the elephant resource.
2) Praetorian cohorts should be limited to post-Marian period.
3) Thracian pikemen should not disappear from their third tier barrack.
4) Remove reference Gaul naked fanatics from farming temples when Gauls are unable to build farming temples.
5) Spain should have the ability to build longshield cavalry in the campaign as they do in custom battles.
6) Spain should have the ability to build onagers in the campaign as they do in custom battles.
7) Horse archers (et al.) should be able to move and fire.
8) Upgraded general units for Scythia and Pontus should be activated by Marian reforms.
9) Spanish family members should wear brown and not blue.
10) Mercenary horse archers should appear in Armenia.
11) Sarmatian mercenaries should have their mount effects.
12) Illyrian mercenaries should have their mount effects.
13) Rebel archer unit should not have a Briton chosen swordsman as officer.
14) Seleucid legionaries should have mass 1.3.
15) Bastarnae mercenaries should have mass 1.2.
17) Eastern Heavy Spearmen should not have their mount effects.
18) Bastarnae mercenaries and Desert Axemen should have their 'metal' armour sound changed to flesh (as I believe this effects only the sound).

What are other people's lists? :deal2:

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agreed

I would add changing all Tracian upgraded bodyguard stats to Choosen Warlord stats (exempt unit descption). They use same icon after all.

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

16) The pig and wardog units should only be recruitable in provinces with the pig and dog resource respectively.

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I don't know how much will this add to gameplay (seems kinda like unneeded change)? For some reson CA removed/never finshed them. Maybe it would be problematic for players since there are no resource icons for pigs and dogs?

I would like to hear oppinion of other posters on this.

I just tried adding pogs and pigs as prerequisite for some units and it didn't worked.

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Originally Posted by player1

I just tried adding pogs and pigs as prerequisite for some units and it didn't worked.

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Warpogs! Truly the ultimate weapon :laugh4:

I forgot we were supposed to test these things before we suggested them. :dunce2: It's only going to have minimal impact as the resources are pretty widespread anyway. If it doesn't work, I'll forget it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Here's my opinion on the listing of fixes for the first 'uncontroversial' patch:
1) Seleucids should only be able to build armoured elephants in provinces with the elephant resource.
2) Praetorian cohorts should be limited to post-Marian period.
3) Thracian pikemen should not disappear from their third tier barrack.
4) Remove reference Gaul naked fanatics from farming temples when Gauls are unable to build farming temples.
5) Spain should have the ability to build longshield cavalry in the campaign as they do in custom battles.
6) Spain should have the ability to build onagers in the campaign as they do in custom battles.
7) Horse archers (et al.) should be able to move and fire.
8) Upgraded general units for Scythia and Pontus should be activated by Marian reforms.
9) Spanish family members should wear brown and not blue.
10) Mercenary horse archers should appear in Armenia.
11) Sarmatian mercenaries should have their mount effects.
12) Illyrian mercenaries should have their mount effects.
13) Rebel archer unit should not have a Briton chosen swordsman as officer.
14) Seleucid legionaries should have mass 1.3.
15) Bastarnae mercenaries should have mass 1.2.
16) The pig and wardog units should only be recruitable in provinces with the pig and dog resource respectively.
17) Eastern Heavy Spearmen should not have their mount effects.
18) Bastarnae mercenaries and Desert Axemen should have their 'metal' armour sound changed to flesh (as I believe this effects only the sound).

What are other people's lists? :deal2:

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Good list. But we should add the upgraded Thracian bodyguards.
Also the Pontic Pikes are indeed outside the right frame. Why should they be smaller when the Bronze Shields are full size? At the very least it should have been the other way round.

I think there are lot of other sounds out there that might be wrong. Teh sound shouldn't be fitted to a number of armour points but rather the image of the unit. So hoplites and hoplite mercenaries should have leather sound as they carry the linnen cuirass, such armour would not sound like metal at all, but very much like leather.

I agree with numbers 1-13 and 17 on the list. The mass and other stats things are not really for the minimalistic patch that aims to only fix the bugs for people who are not confident enough to edit the text files themselves. I do enjoy the discussion in this thread, and have made many of the little tweaks proposed myself, but those things do not coincide with my view of the intention of the fix patch.

However, it's really great to have a dedicated place to discuss (and read about) all those interesting tweaks and inconsistencies, and I think that having the second more exstensive patch (in the vein of WYSIWYG) as well is a great idea.

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Warpogs! Truly the ultimate weapon :laugh4:

I forgot we were supposed to test these things before we suggested them. :dunce2: It's only going to have minimal impact as the resources are pretty widespread anyway. If it doesn't work, I'll forget it.

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I suppose I deserve that for suggesting patches from work...~;)

Never did get around to testing it, I'll try it tonight. I was thinking that you would need the "hidden_resource" tag for them, since they are not in the desc_strat.txt file, only in descr_regions.txt.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Good list. But we should add the upgraded Thracian bodyguards.
Also the Pontic Pikes are indeed outside the right frame. Why should they be smaller when the Bronze Shields are full size? At the very least it should have been the other way round.

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Because they cost less? ~D

Seriously, maybe it is because it is Pontus first phalanx formation unit in the tech tree. Not unitl the highest level barracks they mastered full 120 stack pikes.

All other factions that have pikemen, start first with 80 stack militia hoplites.

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Originally Posted by drone

I suppose I deserve that for suggesting patches from work...

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Please, I get to play RTW perhaps once a month if I'm lucky. I might as well put "this may work, I haven't tested it" in my signature ~;)

re: the mommas and the porkas, yep, the hidden resource approach would definitely work. But I was working on the assumption that the pigs and dogs resources had been properly set up (like the camel and elephant resources) and someone had just forgotten to tie the units to them. However, if the resources haven't been set up properly, then it was obviously just another one of CA's ideas that was dropped intentionally before the final release and therefore not a bug.

re: Pontic Pikes, my only issue with raising the soldier count of this unit is that it would throw the cost off, it's certainly one of the topics for the second patch.


Once everyone on this thread has posted their list of what they think the first patch should include, therother can take them away and have a think about them and we can corral together everything else that has been mentioned in this thread and start discussions on the second patch. :gossip:

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

That is factually incorrect. The other pikemen factions start with levy pikes at one level below this and they are 60 man units. Other hoplite factions start at the barracks level below as well, with mil hops of 40 man size. There is nothing at all consistent about Pontic pikes starting at 40 men.

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But other factions have 80men militia hoplites as their first phalanx formation (this includes Macedon and Selucids), while Pontus doesn't not. Although "piked", it is still their first phalanx type formation.

80 stack formation could easiliy demostrate their inexperience in phalanx fighting (until it gets mastered with highest level barracks).


Armored Hoplites are gained at 3rd level barracks, by the way (best 3rd level stats, for non-barbaric nation).

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I am less interested in a later mod discussion and will probably bow out, not as some sort of protest whether or not this or that is changed in this fix, but because true modding gets more into our individual philosophies, rather than trying to pick through what CA intended with stats and "make it so." I doubt that we can reach a concensus on such a mod.

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Well, many of the isses you listed are really like that.
How many shield points some unit should need, how much cost it needs to balance out, etc... Current discussion proved that it difficult to reach concensus for such things.

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The Early Thracian Bodyguards should have their shield have their shield removed--it is a clear error and the unit stat and cost/upkeep can be easily copied from the other unit using the same graphic: greek general's guard cavalry early. Again, obvious error, easy equitable fix.

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Actually, they don't have same general icon as other greek factons (similar, but not same). Considering that they have snow bonus too, CA obviously wanted then to be in some way different then Greek bodyguard.


EDIT:
Intersting I just realised that upgraded Thracian bodyguard doesn't really use same icon as Choosen Warlord, but Gothic Cavarly icon. Similary as early bodyguard uses Lancers icon, but not Greek general one. Maybe they weren't supposed to be exactly same copies of them?

Well that 80man pike unit is their start phalanx, isn't it?

Calm down, hitting the walls won't help your argument.

Pontic phalanx pikemen is a starting phalanx unit for Pontus.
Simple as that.
They have no Militia Hoplites, they have no Leavy Pikemen.

It does make sense for me, it does not make for you.
End of discussion.

Thanks for the info, it confirms what others have thought that the sec_armour doesn't need adjusting.

I'm sorry you feel like that about this thread, I personally have appreciated the contribution of everyone here, but especially members like yourself who have shown such dedication. It wasn't an easy task, but in my opinion we have been successful in what we set out to do. therother has a list, he and others can judge where the consensus is on uncontroversial patches. I share your concerns on the difficulty of reaching consensus on 'modding' areas and, in retrospect, think that therother had the right idea in limiting the original scope as he did.

I'd encourage everyone who's been involved in this thread bob the insane, Simetrical, Pode, Jambo and drone plus anyone else watching to post their lists of what they believe should be included, so that therother has as much information as possible on which to evaluate final content.

Going forward, in order to distinguish between work on the first and the second patch, I would suggest that this thread be wound down and a new thread opened. therother has said that he's happy to host a second patch on Ludus Magna, however as the discussions on this thread will likely encompass both game research and modding I don't know whether you would consider it appropriate to keep the thread on Ludus Magna or whether it should be moved over to the modding forums (albeit, I don't immediately see an obvious home for it there).

Once a second thread is opened, we can gather together the outstanding topics from this thread and cart them across.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

And with that I'm through with this thread. I am sorry I ever entered it. Good luck with your fix.

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Why? All your comments would be useful for second fix.

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Originally Posted by hrvojej

I agree with numbers 1-13 and 17 on the list. The mass and other stats things are not really for the minimalistic patch that aims to only fix the bugs for people who are not confident enough to edit the text files themselves. I do enjoy the discussion in this thread, and have made many of the little tweaks proposed myself, but those things do not coincide with my view of the intention of the fix patch.

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I could agree with such smaller list too.
Mass and armor sound don't affect game that much (and technicly they are not bugs, just weird stats).

Although I'm not so such about Thracian Upgraded bodyguard anymore, since its icon differs from Choosen Warlord (look in custom battles).

player1, we have already been over this issue with the Pontic Pikes.
Firstly, they are granted the large shield, despite they are pikemen with a small shield, they are small in size and their skin is called hoplite. Now that sounds like they were meant to be a hoplite earlier in the development, but again the developers seems to have missed each other in the hallways, and the pontic pikes became a mishmash.
If you don't want to change the pikes to a larger size then at least give them the proper shield (for that can't be intended).

The cost would be easy to fix as the pontic pikes are exactly the same (disregarding the odd shield value) as normal pikemen. Give them the other's cost and voila it is done.

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

[...]Going forward, in order to distinguish between work on the first and the second patch, I would suggest that this thread be wound down and a new thread opened.

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That is my thoughts also. Will get the new thread up and running as soon as possible. In the meantime, this thread is closed.

New thread is open. This one is for the more optional, more relaxed, patch, so please feel freer to post inconsistencies you think should be corrected. Some of the posts here may be transferred into the new thread – we have yet to decide.

The stricter patch will be compiled in due course.

Thanks.