Originally Posted by Shambles:
I'm not sure if you are aware that CA is the developer of all TW games. EA was just the publisher for STW as Activision was for MTW and RTW.
CA arent as good as ea when it coemes to the Tw games
Printable View
Originally Posted by Shambles:
I'm not sure if you are aware that CA is the developer of all TW games. EA was just the publisher for STW as Activision was for MTW and RTW.
CA arent as good as ea when it coemes to the Tw games
Originally Posted by Old Celt:
Geez, and to think you started off here by slamming everyone who dared to criticize CA. You've come a long way baby. LOL.
I develop software and know you cannot create perfection on the first shot with a large, sophisticated program. Users know this too, and they will be tolerant to a degree of the first effort. But once you address the issues and say, "We've done all we intend to do", as CA has, you then best better have a nearly perfect product, with no bugs rated as serious or critical. The HA bug is serious, the scarring issue is serious, and the save/reload bug borders on critical for its threat to good gameplay for many users. This is hardly the kind of stuff that should have escaped them, and they need to be accountable for their errors- EVEN IF IT COSTS THEM MONEY TO FIX!!
We aren't going to get fairness though, because CA has sold its corporate soul to the devil, and we will have to pay for fixes in the expansion pack which should have been caught with release 1.1 at the latest. Abusing your customers for short term gain is never a winning business plan.
I admit I'm hooked deeply enough on RTW to pay whatever for the expansion, but I'm disappointed at the lack of both pride in their work and business ethics the management of CA are displaying over this patch fiasco. To the management of CA: If you want to play in the big leagues, then be prepared to play professionally. If you want to be anything more than a "one hit wonder" remember the importance of doing your job right, and then standing by it to correct any errors on your part.
But I agree with your comments. The last straw for me was when a member of CA on this board recently confessed that Activision had exerted no pressure on CA and that all the design decisions in the game were CA's own. That and the fact he seemed to think the game is great because lots of folks have bought it - it's clear that CA are going to continue with their business strategy of appealing to the lowest common denominator at the expense of realism or anything else which might get in the way of maximum sales. Get ready for "Witches and Warlocks: Total War" people, because it's not far away...
Originally Posted by Pode:
True, but then, they charge half as much again for console games.
More important, it's not like bug free gaming doesn't happen. When was the last time you got a patch for your console game? Oh, yeah, they can't patch them, so they have to . . . drum roll . . . get it right the first time. Don't tell me it can't be done.
Originally Posted by Turbo:
Yes, I'm very much of that impression too. They are pursuing a different vision to that of the grognards and I think lovers of the earlier games are only likely to be further disappointed in future.
CA is not the same company that it used to be. Veterans of the series are not longer strategic to their corporate vision.
Originally Posted by Turbo:
I don't think that is the case, I just think the TW series is becoming more of a kiddies' mass market exercise itself.
They are shifting their resources to the console market.
Originally Posted by Turbo:
I've already moved on to other things. And I certainly won't be hanging around waiting for the next instalment of TW like I did for Rome. But I will still take note of the next release and the reception it gets in the grognard community.
Time for us to move on to a different game and different publisher.
Originally Posted by screwtype:
True. This, coupled with the sorry state of this game right now, is what led me to conclude that I will most likely obtain any future games from CA from the bargain bin, if at all.
The last straw for me was when a member of CA on this board recently confessed that Activision had exerted no pressure on CA and that all the design decisions in the game were CA's own. That and the fact he seemed to think the game is great because lots of folks have bought it - it's clear that CA are going to continue with their business strategy of appealing to the lowest common denominator at the expense of realism or anything else which might get in the way of a quick buck.
This forum is still a nice place though, and the only reason I still hang out here sometimes.
the forums on this site are really friendly and they're nice to come and "hang out". The Tavern is a cool forum!
Originally Posted by screwtype:
Well, of course CA was the one that decided to make the game mass-market rather than realistic or whatever. No, the only thing I expect Activision is responsible for is the bad support. That's a very big thing, however.
The last straw for me was when a member of CA on this board recently confessed that Activision had exerted no pressure on CA and that all the design decisions in the game were CA's own.
The only design decision I really hold against CA was their failure to release so many modding tools to the public—we had to come up with tools like PAK extractors and CAS editors ourselves, we have to edit the many layers of the campaign map by hand, and so forth. The biggest thing CA left uneditable is the AI—true, it would be much harder to edit than anything yet released, but dedicated and skilled people like Vercingetorix could manage it if they didn't have to make basic tools like animation extractors. Other major annoyances are the hardcoding for the factions and the limitations of the scripting systems.
My future TW purchases will, in large part, probably be contingent on moddability. If Hun Invasion (or whatever the expansion will be) addresses enough of my modding complaints, you can bet I'll be buying it.
-Simetrical
I posted the following last week at the "official" website in response to a thread about the save game bug and the mods squelching any effort to receive a response from CA on what they intend to do about it:
(posted on Totalwar.com, 3/24)
"Continuing to push limits of Mod patience and jabs at CA will only cause this thread to be closed."
Just for the record, so it's clear: do you have an official policy stating no criticism, no matter how valid will be tolerated of the CA work effort, and particularly criticism directed toward the existence of bugs?
I post on several other RTW boards, and this one by far seems the most closed to speech which is tolerated and even encouraged elsewhere. Like many other concerned people, I paid for the product, and when I discover a major flaw in it, expecting an explanation for how the manufacturer will put it right is fair and reasonable.
We have gotten no response from CA, Activision, Sega, or anyone else in an official capacity telling us what the intentions are with regard to this severe bug. Closing threads won't make the problem go away. It sure might make the customers go away. If you (mods for this board) think that meeting valid customer complaints with threats and arrogance are going to help, I think you are sadly mistaken. If this is how you treat your concerned fans, I'd hate to see what you do to try to woo new business. If you want my money in the future, you'd better treat me right!
(end of post)
Of course, all the substance of the post was completely edited out, in true Nazi style, and I was invited to post elsewhere. So I am exercising that option here. All I want is for CA, Sega, or Activision to answer this complaint in a meaningful way. I've never seen this type of customer service, with the exception of a rundown bowling alley. Is it just a culture thing? Do British companies in general have the attitude that they can ignore valid complaints with impunity?
Maybe according to the Activision policies CA are not allowed to say anything about bugs and such, especially now, after the second and also the last patch is out. After all, if CA admitted the bug's existance, the official truth of "the game is quite seriously flawed and there will be no more patch" will surely hurt the game's sales in some way. I'm quite positive that not all the guys in CA are idiots or completely blind, at least a few of them must have already tracked down the cause of the bugs we reported so far, and may even have already made some hot-fixes in their hard drive. Unfortunately enough, they cannot afford the consequences which will come if they release those mini-patches, after all CA isn't some very big and rich company like Blizzard and Id. Definetly not Micro$oft. :P
Maybe it's actually a good thing that they are not allowed to make a 1.3 patch, until the XPack comes out, because more bugs can be reported/fixed during this long time period...well, if they did release the 1.3 patch 2 weeks ago, then today we may be crying out "WE NEED 1.4 TO FIX THE BROKEN CHARGE BONUS!!!"
Old Celt,
Welcome to the world of CA customer support or lack thereof. It is amazing to see how completely CA has turned their back on their loyal core customers. I am convinced that we, the current core customers are less and less strategic to CA as they move resources to console games.
Turbo,
Yes, I think you are quite right. My assumption is we shall just have to pay for this to be fixed (hopefully) in the expansion, maybe in 2007, if history shows any trends :(
I must apologize to you personally, Turbo. I remember some heated debates in which I took CA's side in the past against you. It seems my defense was ill-advised, as doing the right thing is definitely not on the CA/Activision/Sega agenda, with regard to proper support. You were right, I was wrong.
Just to make this absolutely clear to me, tell me; they banned you?
Originally Posted by Turbo:
Old Celt,
Welcome to the world of CA customer support or lack thereof. It is amazing to see how completely CA has turned their back on their loyal core customers. I am convinced that we, the current core customers are less and less strategic to CA as they move resources to console games.
I hate to tell you but in business terms I'm almost sure that means CA actually has more resources. Both in resources and manpower. There programmers/ graphic designers and other categories have downtime wich means pay for no work. With multiple projects this reduces downtime for a group. This makes an employee have a bigger bang for the buck.
As far as being delayed. If they released an exp pack in June the gamers would be paying 30-40bucks for it. If it was released in December they could sell the expansion pack for 30-40 bucks. So doing the math the sooner they sell an exp pack, the sooner they can go onto another project and make more money. The difference in time is the means of the quality of the expansion pack, the more enjoyable the more they secure there future projects.
As far as the bug, be tactful and respectful in the e-mails. As dirty mail will just get deleted but an e-mail that states the problem and your disgust is more likely to be more appealing. Also do'nt request a patch or a response on thier plans from the bug.
The most tactical way I see to do this is spam them in a nice way. First start a thread on the siege bug petition.
Now tell everyone to title thier e-mails
RTW A.I. siege lifting bug
In the text write something like this but tell them to contain the exact words you widh the text to contain
The A.I.'s abilties are greatly reduced since the 1.2 patch and GREATLY reduces the challeng of gameplay
Short simple but gets to the point without implying any demands
What this also does is it does not flood them with various e-mails. Now more than likely all e-mails will get filtered due to the title..... but hopefully counted and will be much easier for them to handle.
Also request that noone sends more than 1 e-mail because they may also record adresses from, do not be a spamming idiot and just send them 1 e-mail as to be as respectable about this as possible.
Qvintvs,
No they did not ban me, they simply said that if I didn't like the way they ran things, I should post on other boards. Since they edited nearly all of the content from my post, it was impossible for anyone reading the edited version to even know what it was about.
@ Oaty:
I have been more respectful of the company, than they have been to me, by far. A simple question of a flawed product and what they intend to do about it deserves the courtesy of a MEANINGFUL response. If nothing can be done because Activision has the football, then just say so!
I know CA staff read the posts here. So, I must reach the conclusion that they tacitly approve of the silent treatment the customers are receiving in response to legitimate queries about what the company intends to do about this most serious of all discovered bugs in their product.
Originally Posted by Turbo:
This makes no sense. SEGA has stated more than once that they purchased CA in order to move into PC gaming. I believe that to be true since SEGA has no need to buy a company that is making its first console game.
Old Celt,
I am convinced that we, the current core customers are less and less strategic to CA as they move resources to console games.
The question of who are now the "core-customers" is a separate issue. In that regard, I've seen no evidence from the comments made by CA employees that the players who played STW and MTW continue to be the "core-customers". CA employees pay lip-service to that idea, but despite the (often abusive) denials, it looks as if RTW (and possibly the next TW game) is targeted toward the much more numerous RTS crowd.
SpencerH,
You don't think that consoles is the new direction for CA? Sega buys CA and boom, a console game is already in the works. Spartan Total War.
Regardless, the point I am trying to make is that the current core users are no longer strategic to CA. Whether they are focusing more on RTS or consoles is a moot point.
Originally Posted by Old Celt:
No problem Old Celt. I wish you had been right about CA supporting this product. I certainly have no satisfaction about right.
Turbo,
Yes, I think you are quite right. My assumption is we shall just have to pay for this to be fixed (hopefully) in the expansion, maybe in 2007, if history shows any trends :(
I must apologize to you personally, Turbo. I remember some heated debates in which I took CA's side in the past against you. It seems my defense was ill-advised, as doing the right thing is definitely not on the CA/Activision/Sega agenda, with regard to proper support. You were right, I was wrong.
Originally Posted by Turbo:
The console has to have been "in the works" for years. It may have been a consideration in SEGA's decision but I believe them when they say they bought CA for the PC market.
SpencerH,
You don't think that consoles is the new direction for CA? Sega buys CA and boom, a console game is already in the works. Spartan Total War.
Originally Posted by Turbo:
That may be true, and time will tell. I'm hopefully optimistic that SEGA will allow CA the time and resources to actually finish the expansion prior to its release (unlike RTW itself). SEGA may also allow a 3rd patch. If they read whats happening at these sites they may demand one! That may be unlikely, but possible if one considers that SEGA may wish to end the "bad publicity" we generate over the unfinished nature of RTW.
Regardless, the point I am trying to make is that the current core users are no longer strategic to CA. Whether they are focusing more on RTS or consoles is a moot point.
I will only wait so long for Sega/CA to give the courtesy of a reply on the save game/reload bug. If they will not address the issue in a civil way, then I will write some e-mails describing the problem in detail, and how to reproduce it to some contacts I have at "a major pc gaming media outlet". Then, Sega/CA can have the inestimable pleasure of dealing with the attendant loss of credibility and future sales for their product.
The bottom line is: they sold something that was broken to their customers. The right thing to do is to fix any serious or critical bugs immediately, and at no cost to customers, just as Ford will fix my vehicle for free if it is shown to have a manufacturer's defect. It would be unreasonable to demand a fix for every imperfection observed in the game. It is however, perfectly reasonable to expect prompt support for serious and/or critical bugs which have been proven to exist.
Originally Posted by Old Celt:
Actually I was thinking on the same lines. I am going to be sending emails to Computer Gaming World and the other magazine in the hopes that I can raise the lack of support with them. I'll post the editor email addresses for other fed up users.
I will only wait so long for Sega/CA to give the courtesy of a reply on the save game/reload bug. If they will not address the issue in a civil way, then I will write some e-mails describing the problem in detail, and how to reproduce it to some contacts I have at "a major pc gaming media outlet". Then, Sega/CA can have the inestimable pleasure of dealing with the attendant loss of credibility and future sales for their product.
The bottom line is: they sold something that was broken to their customers. The right thing to do is to fix any serious or critical bugs immediately, and at no cost to customers, just as Ford will fix my vehicle for free if it is shown to have a manufacturer's defect. It would be unreasonable to demand a fix for every imperfection observed in the game. It is however, perfectly reasonable to expect prompt support for serious and/or critical bugs which have been proven to exist.
What I don't like is general trend in gaming industry about patching policy.
Way too many publishers don't care.
And why would they, if just small % of people read forums.
If there was something like "bug police" colum in some computer magazine, where biggest offenders would be listed, I guess that policy would be changed in some time.
EDIT:
Wishful thinking...
Please do! I will be more than happy to send gaming magazines spa - I mean, long winded - I mean, informative messages about apathetic developers.
Here's to the memory of Looking Glass Studios!
Originally Posted by HeresiarchQin:
Actually they are a big and rich company - they are now Sega.
after all CA isn't some very big and rich company like Blizzard and Id. Definetly not Micro$oft. :P
I've run into this kind of situation before, with another game. Basically, it became a big game of "pass the buck". No one wanted to take responsibility for things. I ended up doing a lot of patching on the game myself.
The reality of the current situation is likely that CA won't do another patch unless they are funded, and Activision isn't going to fund another patch, especially since they've effectively lost CA. Sad for the end customers, but, then, very few companies actually care about us to begin with.
Bh
Originally Posted by Old Celt:
I'll probably get flamed for this, but British companies do have some odd ways of doing business.
Do British companies in general have the attitude that they can ignore valid complaints with impunity?
I recently went to the website of a British coy to buy a product, only to find a message which explained that everyone had gone on holiday for a couple of weeks and I would have to return later. This is not the first time this has happened to me with a Brit coy.
I find it pretty incredible that *everyone* at a company would have to go on holiday at the same time. A small owner-operated business, sure, but not a company with a number of employees. Sheesh, the least they could do was leave someone behind to keep processing orders while the rest were away!
There are also a lot of Brit companies that won't do business with you if you live overseas. I guess they're worried about making more money than they can handle or something.
Old Celt,
I was wondering what awful thing you said in the .com post that got you chastised and your entire post edited out.
I don't know where the post is, but apparently the SEGA rep said that patching RTW is CA's decision. The problem for CA must be whether or not to take the time out of the schedule to do another patch. CA has always followed a strategy of one major patch per release, and they try to catch all the major bugs in that one patch. However, RTW was released with a huge number of problems, and that overwhelmed the v1.2 patch effort so that some things were not caught such as the loadgame/siege problem which I suspect is just the tip of an iceberg of a problem with savegames.
CA is well aware of the loadgame/siege problem, but I've seen them follow a policy of no comment on outstanding bugs for four years. CA uses the core customer base to help identify bugs, but they don't answer to that base or even have a dialog with it. This is why you are allowed to report a bug at .com, but not allowed to ask if it will be fixed. If CA admits it's not going to be fixed or it has to wait for the add-on to be addressed, that's bad for marketing. Practically all the responses to criticism I see made by CA are damage control to minimize any negative impact on sales.
I can tell you that the Total War customer base that has been around here for four years is decimated. Good graphics has replaced good gameplay as the main selling point which makes gameplay less important in the scheme of things. All the people who I regularly played Total War with online for years have left for other games.
Yep Yuuki, pretty much sums up my experience since STW too! :|
Although I would say that both earlier games had the advantage of being smaller and less advanced projects. The bigger and bolder the project, the more likely the occurrence and prevalence of big bad bugs.
I had hoped that with the increasingly bolder projects, CA would lay aside their standard and rather mean 1-2 patch policy per release and adopt a patching policy more befitting the current project's needs. It seems that while the games are evolving at a staggering pace and with an increasing complexity, the level of customer support remains rooted in the past.
Sooner or later even CA will realise that there has to be careful balance maintained between both to be able to sustain a company with a satisfied customer base. Like Yuuki, I know many players of the older Total War titles that haven't yet purchased Rome or have become so disenchanted with the level of customer support for Rome, that the purchase of future TW titles will depend more heavily on the company intentions for post-release support rather than the titles themselves.
British companies are funny things. I wrote this about British service a couple of years ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/stud...06/phono.shtml
Having found this Forum and the other at .COM over 2 years ago, it is clear from observation that the CA guys use the .COM forum as a passive information gathering device.
Any bug comment is a "no win" situation for them.
It is either going to happen or not and that has everything to do with the financial situation and not what the "hard core" board members want.
Well it is expected that companies need and want to make money. But unless you plan only for short term gain, you must build both quality products AND a reputation for good service. That's the reason Sears has done so well with Craftsman tools: they are top quality AND they are guaranteed for life. I personally witnessed an 84 year old man return a Craftsman socket that had split AFTER 62 YEARS OF SERVICE!! Sears didn't make any money on that exchange, but they built their reputation and word got around that they were steadfast behind their products. The result? Much more business because of dependability.
This GOTY business and such will be nothing more than "a flash in the pan" if word gets round that CA won't support their product and fix their obvious screwups. Yeah, it will cost them money, but that's what happens when you make mistakes and go to production that way. The fact is CA now has Sega and all their millions behind them, so there is no longer any excuse to cry poor as a reason to not hot patch the save game problem. Other, lesser companies correctly support their products, CA can do the same.
I think in some regards, the critical acclaim RTW has received from the usual media sources for game reviews is a pyrrhic victory. I would be surprised if any money in profit has actually been made for RTW when you consider how hideously over budget it must have been, given it was over 18 months late to production. Sega just needs to understand that they wouldn't be "throwing good money after bad" to finance an immediate effort to patch the game NOW, and thereby get back in the good graces of hard core players, and repair the damage to CA's reputation in the process.
In the “Loadgame-AI bug” thread at the .com, a CA staff member (TorquemadaUK) just commented on this issue. Surprisingly, CA does not even consider it a bug:
“Given that the player has no clue whether the AI plans to assault or starve out the settlement, what this is really saying is some seiges are lifted and some are not. Hence there is not a bug that causes all seiges to be lifted when a savegame is loaded. Sometimes the AI decides it's armies are needed elsewhere and it lifts a seige; sometimes it doesn't, and the seige is maintained - loaded savegame or just new turn.
Of course, as stated, it is perfectly legitimate to disagree with some of the AI decision-making, but that is an entirely separate discussion.”
:dizzy2:
It was nice of TorquemadaUK to respond, but it is obvious that CA still doesn't get it...they do not even understand the bug. ~:eek:
Open mouth... insert foot... ;)
this is the entire response:
For each faction, the AI generally makes an assessment each turn of the best use for all the forces it has available (whether a save game has been loaded or not). If it has armies engaged in a seige and it decides that those armies can be better used elsewhere, it will indeed lift the seige and move those armies to where it judges they are more needed. The player will often not be able to see why the seige has been lifted, as the fog of war will prevent the player from seeing the threat that the AI is responding to (unless the player themselves is that threat). This lifting of seiges happens within continuous play as well as after loading a savegame, and the AI also does maintain some seiges after loading a savegame. Now, it is perfectly reasonable to complain that the AI chooses to lift seiges too often, but this is not a savegame bug. In addition, it would not necessarily make the AI perform better to increase its tendancy to maintain armies in seiges they have initiated... it might well end up responding to threats less effectively overall. This is something that can be debated.
The fact that this is not the bug that it has been portrayed as is illustrated by the original post that began this whole thread. It says:
"At the end of any turn where you did a reload the AI factions will immediately lift any siege, *except* those sieges where the AI planned to starve out the settlement."
Given that the player has no clue whether the AI plans to assault or starve out the settlement, what this is really saying is some seiges are lifted and some are not. Hence there is not a bug that causes all seiges to be lifted when a savegame is loaded. Sometimes the AI decides it's armies are needed elsewhere and it lifts a seige; sometimes it doesn't, and the seige is maintained - loaded savegame or just new turn.
Of course, as stated, it is perfectly legitimate to disagree with some of the AI decision-making, but that is an entirely separate discussion.
I hope this helps... !
This was my response:
Wow!8o
a CA staff finally replied!! it seems they did lots of testing with it and arrived at that conclusion, gave my input earlier in the thread..and so i have a question to ask: How does the AI determine the next best alternative?? for e.g in my case and in most i believe, a carthage army sieging messana on scily with rest of scily conquered, no roman armies on fleets or land nearby, built rams to assault, then upon saving and reloading, lifted a siege and idled around the island without doing anything. You call this "next best alternative"??
how? i am very curious, and this is juz one of the many examples...perhaps insufficient playtesting in lieu of this bug was made...
p.s. next best alternative is my terminology for "AI generally makes an assessment each turn of the best use for all the forces it has available (whether a save game has been loaded or not). If it has armies engaged in a seige and it decides that those armies can be better used elsewhere, it will indeed lift the seige and move those armies to where it judges they are more needed"
yes in 3 words ;)
i think that some british gaming companies have the most innovative ideas and really do attempt to give gamers realism; take Sports Interactive, who made the Championship Manager series, who did in fact hire the fans that beta tested for them as games testers, and have an extensive repetoire of scouts who gather all information about foreign football leagues.
it is somewhat inevitable that, much like a new band with a small following, once a good thing gets bigger, it is never quite the same again. although i only joined the TW series at Rome: Total War, i share the annoyance of bugs going unfixed.
Thanks for posting the CA response.
This is illustrative of the smokescreen behavior CA will use to respond to legitimate issues. And also the little arrogant insult: "Since the player has NO clue..." (emphasis mine). Well, duh, if we lift the FOW and can clearly see what the threats are, I think we have quite the clue. How many cases have there been where people have demonstrated the bug by saving a game, playing out a few more turns to watch the AI finish the siege, then reloading that save and watching the AI break it off at end of turn immediately thereafter? The CA staff does us no favors in assuming we have the mental power of a load of rutabagas! It really galls me that CA will make use of the thousands of hours of free beta testing they get on their finished product, then insult the people who provide data on the flaws!
The devil is in the details. Yeah, no doubt the AI assesses threats each turn, and in some cases, legitimately needs to lift the siege for its own good. But loading a save somehow overrides the planned actions the AI had in the previous game session. It's pretty obvious that when the AI builds 5 rams in a siege on wooden walls, it plans to assault the next turn. To have it fail to do that ONLY when the game is loaded from a save is proof of the bug when you consider the example test I cited above. Whether the actual bug is caused by poor assessment, or by a total reset of variables is a problem for CA to figure out, but the presence of broken code is a given.
The key to defining inappropriate activity as a bug is that it has no basis in logic (true in this case), is repeatable for all users with the version in question (true in this case), and that it definitively effects the performance in a negative way (true again).
CA's response to the load/save bug is an attempt to sweep it under the table. It is evident that they have no intention of doing any further patches.
Wait for their Official RTW Expansion...
RTB - Rome Total Bug ~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker:
unsolved ones I mean ~:)
well, torquemadaUK's latest "response" is the last straw for me. unless ignorant and inconsiderate fools like that are fired immediately, i have no intention whatsoever of paying for the expansion, even if this bug is fixed. who knows what new bugs will pop up, and what guarantee is there that those will ever be fixed? it seems pretty obvious by now that they won't. sites like gamecopyworld exist because there is a demand for them. that demand exists because people don't want to pay money for an unsupported, non-refundable yet defective product. i could easily have downloaded RTW, but i didn't. i wanted to support what i initially thought was something that deserved it. well, now i've learned from my mistake. CA can no longer be trusted. screw them.
Hi guys,
This is my first post here at this forum. I am an old member at the 'official' .com and know some of the members here (some with different handles i can recognise as well).
So hello to tai4ji2x, Puzz3D, Red Harvest, Aphex (Old Celt?) and the rest.
I actually just came here to check the reaction of the rest of the community on the recent post by TorqUK on the .com forum. I have already posted in the relevent thread and tried to politely engage the said CA rep to test this bug. However, it is rather disappointing that after all this time, when CA decided to post, they posted such rubbish. It was better they didn't post at all.
Anyhow, it does indicate that there won't be a hotfix for this bug coming out soon, otherwise such a naive post by CA staff wouldn't have been made.
Whats more amazing is that some people would continue to argue in favour of this bug not existing without testing it first. DimeBagHo has done a good job in the Loadgame Ai Bug thread, and tries to convince the nay-sayers to test before saying the 'bug isnt there or they haven't noticed it', but people do not wish to consider what some players are going through (not being able to play or enjoy the game because they can't have marathon sessions).
Just wanted to get this off my chest i suppose. One has to be more diplomatic on the .com forums. Can't tell the morons that they are morons there.
Anyway, good day to all.
Greetings sik1977,
I just couldn't stand the official dot com's mods and their overbearing wholesale editing of anything they simply didn't like as opposed to a proper policy based on forum rules, etc. They use the Nazi strategy to deal with any questions they would rather not answer: silence the person asking.
I know the bug exists. It is easy to prove it. Again, I am hopeful that Sega will get control of the gasbags who treat the RTW customer base so contemptuously. We deserve respect. If we present an issue and can back it up, we deserve intelligent sincere responses. When will they realize they are stronger with their best informed customers supporting them then they are with those people highly annoyed at them?
This is awful, truly awful. I can't understand how they are claiming that this isn't a bug. Almost as bad as when MikeB tried to blame the problem on the RTR mod.
That's it. RTW and CA are history as far as I'm concerned.
Cheers all......it's been a fun few years whilst total war lasted.
Cheers
Starkhorn
Game Over.
Damn it.
So what can we play?
And no, we cant go back to MTW, its been done to death. Wait for Civ4 I guess?
ps: Don't the mods at the .com and the programmers at CA play the game? Can't they see that the AI does nothing? Some hadn't even seen the coastline bug! (and yes its a totally minor bug no matter what whatsisname thinks, dont put resources into fixing that).
You can play Silent Hunter 3!!...although like most games these days it too was released early..with a few bugs. Not game killers though.
The mods at the .com ARE a bit PRICKly. Do you really think a 'code of silence' policy exists? Smacks of conspiracy theory to me...but it does appear to be the case.
Like our elderly celt, I fail to see why one organisation (be it SEGA, CA or Activision) doesn't just answer the frikken questions. Surely they have some sort of PR plan.
Maybe they guys they hired to do the PR job just suxor at PR?
I'd like to se something like this.
CA staff: 'Nah...sorry, no more patches. Activision pwnz the rights and Sega doesn't want to shell out for no return, so no patch. Sorry...HOWEVER, we ARE making an expansion with Sega/Activison and that's definatley going to fix the bugs...you know...the things you (the customer) really really hate AND add a whole ton of extra stuff...like sea battles (better than the ones Eidos are doing for Imperial Glory). Anyway...just wait till you see the next incarnation of Total War....it's gonna be AWESOME!! And the best part...100% BUG FREE!! We GARANTEE it. It's the NEW CA/Sega policy!! No bugs....'
You get the picture. SELL your stuff CA. Take the money from Sega/Activision/Microsoft/Al Queda or whoever...fire your current PR imbeciles and SELL your stuff. Pre-test and Post test...remember?
~:grouphug:
This is just nuts. When I saw MikeB post, I got really annoyed with CA. But then I saw some of the CA posts about the whole console issue, and it seemed like there was a faction within CA that actually "got it". But now we've got another CA employee proving not only that he doesn't have a f*cking clue about his own game, but also that he considers we customers to be idiots.
I can't believe one of them compared their situation to Blizzard at one point. A company that is still putting out patches for games like Starcraft. If Blizzard owned the TW series, we'd likely still see patches for STW and MTW, let alone for RTW.
Bh
That really weird.
Why is only time that CA post, that it's when they are denying that some bugs exists?
And what's more funny is that bugs were tested and well documented in the forums. With tests that anybody can try at home and get conclusions.
I'm shocked! ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:
EDIT:
We really need to start lobbying for public beta testing team for expansion, or maybe even public beta patches. This has gone too far.
The worst part of this is that they don't need us fanatacs, hardcore or not. They will not lose money due to their behavior. There will always be sales, no matter how short of a time people play the game after buying it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Creative Assembly didn't take after the likes of 1C and stop releasing playable demonstrations. 1C is afraid that if people get to try before they buy, they will not buy! Mark my words.
Greetings Old Celt,
I am assuming you are Gwumpke over at .COM. I am the .COM moderator that happened to be there at the time.
The AI Loadgame Bug thread at OT was meant to be a thread for gathering constructive input from patrons regarding the “bug”. There are respected patrons that needed the thread for their analysis of the problem. We do not want the constructive posts to be buried by rants and other off-topic posts. It was not a thread for ranting or venting someone’s anger or frustration.
Being the official Forum of CA, the .COM has been bearing the brunt of uncivil posts. We have to be very strict – whether we like it or not – to keep the sanity of the place. We have been called Nazis before and worse. Those are the kind of crap that we receive on a daily basis in return for volunteering our time to take care of the Forums.
We are not CA employees but patrons volunteering to take care of the Forums for other patrons. We know as much information as any patron. Nothing more.
You post stood out as being from someone who just entered the discussion and I felt that it was a rant and not constructive and on-topic.
Hopefully, you’ll understand. It was nothing personal.
Bat
PS. I feel that the .COM and .ORG are part of one TW community. That’s why I’m here. But to the moderators of .ORG, if you feel that I should not be here and you think it is a conflict of interest, please let me know and I will leave. Thank you.
I expect that this will really surprise you, but I am on your side on this. Rome: Total War moderators are fairly reasonable. I've only had an issue with one or two over the distinction between using power for personal reasons and using power to perform duties. If anyone thinks that these moderators are fascist in behavior, I suggest that he should stop over to the official Operation Flashpoint forum. I see more locked threads than not over there.
This reminds me of some horrible bug that existed when Viking Invasion came out. I can't remember what the bug was, but it really crippled the game until the next patch came out. I think CA makes its money off of initial sales--time spent patching after the fact is less profitable than time spent developing the next game (or official expansion). Sad situation for the customers, but we're not organized enough to boycott and if we did, we'd probably just push all companies to the console which is a lamentable medium.
@ Bhruic,
You know, if CA won't fix the AI siege bug, maybe you could do some more of that magic that you're so famous for. The work you did on "that other product" was nothing short of genius! Not only is it playable almost exclusively because of your modifications, it's STILL tons of fun.
I would be glad to do some grunt work for you, playtesting, etc... if you decide to delve into the depths of this one.
tc
ps - It's good to see a familiar face. ~D
I see some more of the .com patrons have just joined here. Welcome teecee, Bat and Qvintvs (Benny Moore surely).
I am rather surprised that Bat actually joined and posted to explain himself. Anyhow, good to see you Bat, I know you have a tough job at the .com forum, and you usually moderate the Loadgame AI Bug thread, which is a difficult one to say the least.
I hope TorqUK reads the two+ pages of posts already generated by his naive post (to say the least) in Loadgame AI Bug thread. I don't think he will admit anything, be it existence of this bug or CA's plans of fixing/ignoring it. I don't want to say this in the .com forums as I don't wish to further depress the patrons there. TorqUK's ignorant post is depressing enough for now.
P.s' Bat, stop siding with fanboys at .com.... hehe... sorry couldn't resist a little tease.
Bat does a pretty balanced job overall. That is my 2 cents.
Let's give TorqUK some credit. He didn't have to try to address this and killing the messenger is not going to get us anywhere. I'm glad he posted his thoughts, but it also shows that CA is not really all that concerned with some of the bigger issues at the moment, or at least don't see them as problems.
By definition: If the customers see these as big problems, then they are.
Hey Sik1977, good to see you here too.
Actually, the things that happened in the loadgame thread and my registering with .ORG was just a coincidence. Then by chance I saw how Old Celt felt about what I did, so I thought I'll give him a little from my side.
Aurelius' post where he indicated at Duck's pond that he was 2 short of making his 10th post here reminded me to register. You see I lurked for about 2 years at .COM before actually registering. I felt that I should not do that here.
I also wanted to follow Eradosan's contributions here at .ORG.
...Nah. The fanboys don't need any help. They can take care of their own. Besides it won't be good if I take sides. :)
Thanks for your 2 cents Red Harvest. :)
Originally Posted by Red Harvest:
So in your opinion it is better to have someone respond with an incorrect assessment of the situation, while simultaneously telling you that you just don't understand what is going on, than to have them not post at all?
Let's give TorqUK some credit. He didn't have to try to address this and killing the messenger is not going to get us anywhere.
Can't agree with you on that one. If you are going to take the effort to post something, then make sure you know what you are talking about. Spouting off crap that is demonstratably false does nothing to inspire confidence in what you are saying, or your company as a whole. In a case like this, it is relatively simple to test the accuracy of what people have been saying. Not putting that effort in also does little to inspire confidence. In effect, you have left yourself and your company in a worse position than they were in before you said anything.
Bh
and voila, now we have a typical lawyerly contribution to the.com thread by our "oh-so-beloved" killemall54, who here in this post perfectly exemplifies why most laypeople refer to lawyers as "slimeballs":
Originally Posted by :
Bugs, by definition, stop the game. In STW we had a click on a ninja problem where if you clicked on the ninja, the game froze, you lost data and crashed to desktop. Same thing with MTW with boats. In RTW there is a glitch that you can accidentally trap a fleet in a river mouth like the STW unit trapped in a corner of a river during a bridge battle.
THERE IS NO LOAD GAME AI SIEGE GAME BUG, Test all you want but none of you have controlled for all the variables. Several CA people discussed this issue with us moderators and we came to the conclusion that (me speaking, like UFO-ologists bent on believing in aliens despite reports to the contrary) those convinced of the bug would continue to believe in the bug despite logic and evidence to the contrary. Our private discussions are well confirmed by your own statements.
Some posts here point out the AI neither attacks or defends during a siege where it has zero chance of winning. When the AI attacks me and wins a siege it generally has far superior forces and proper forces. Sometimes I have massacred an AI attacker when it did not have the proper mix of forces to siege me. The AI often has less money than us as the game progresses. It makes sense it would lift a siege in preparation for moving out to another target in response to a threat. Then when you reload, you change the variables because you reloaded in response to your own situation to take advantage of your perceptions. No wonder the AI backs off its siege.
None of us has the whole AI decision tree and reading the repetitive and unenlightening posts contained herein, none of the critics have applied the proper methodology to support the proof of an alleged bug. All the logic is merely inductive. And all contain the inductive leap. The argument is then from false premises.
Your sacred bug does not crash the game. It does not turn into machine language or hang as a glitch like ships and units caught between tiles. The bug you claim to see has no visible attributes of its existence. ERGO, THERE IS NO BUG.
Also this a very strange animal that only occurs when YOU CHOOSE to reload, and not like a real bug that FORCES YOU to reload. When you make the choice, the BUG is YOU not the GAME.
"only when you choose to reload - so it is your problem"
This [----insert your beloved dirty word here----] moron just insists we should do nothing but play RTW 24hs a day? This speaks volumes of how close to reality the staff of CA is.
K54's definition of a bug is laughable. I've never heard that definition of a bug before, ever. Any time a program does something unintended, it can be classified as a bug (it might not necessarily be, but it could be.) I can assure you that the majority of bugs I've worked on would not halt the app. Ones that stop the app are the easiest ones to ID.
K54 needs to put down the crack pipe.
Originally Posted by Red Harvest:
Roger that. I wonder what the reaction of my boss would be if I responded to his requests in that way.
K54's definition of a bug is laughable. I've never heard that definition of a bug before, ever. Any time a program does something unintended, it can be classified as a bug (it might not necessarily be, but it could be.) I can assure you that the majority of bugs I've worked on would not halt the app. Ones that stop the app are the easiest ones to ID.
K54 needs to put down the crack pipe.
"Yes, the fin surface temperature is wrong by 10 K, but it does not halt the program, sir, I am not going to correct it."
Nice. I'll have to frame that as "the most idiotic reply from a forum moderator ever". What an ass. No clue what a "bug" is, no clue what this "bug" is, and no clue about how this part of the game works. He might as well get "I'm an idiot" tattooed on his forehead.
Funny how all of his "evidence to the contrary" actually points to the bug's existence.
Bh
Two things seem to stick out for me and I am referring to the .COM thread that is the main topic of this thread.
The first concerning thing is...
WHAT exactly is CA’s communication policy? I mean here we have a CA staffer with 7 posts to his name coming onto the .COM forum and basically dropping a bomb on a topic that by all rights needs a far more comprehensive answer than the one given. I say this only because of the amount of time invested by the Forum members in the debate. How he determined what contribution he was making by saying what he did would now be a discussion at his EXIT INTERVIEW with the company if I was a manager of CA!!
I mean they clearly DON'T take it in turns to answer questions!! What are they doing?? Flipping a coin? Posting only when there is a full moon? Waiting for spring? WHAT!! Clearly it is a public forum for anyone to join but if I was CA Management I would be strictly controlling any and all access of my staff to this site due to what it represents to the company.
This particular CA staffer over at the COM seems to be in his early 20's and certainly not qualified to officially answer a question of this level. I am saying this because I am starting to regard his post as only "One Point of View" inside CA on this issue.
The second is rather hard to ignore. TAKE DIMEBAGHOE'S very bloody basic test parameters and DO IT!! I mean it either turns out similar to what he is saying or it doesn't. THERE IS very little room to manoeuvre due to the extreme nature of his results. I'm not going to go into my own observations as it clearly will add nothing to the massive amount of work already done. In the end this is a very SIMPLE thing to test. How to fix it is the complex part.
BUT, one thing I have noted in my time managing multiple software systems (I'm non-technical) is that when you have this amount of discussion and quantitative evidence then there IS a bloody fire somewhere and just because YOU (see CA) can't find it, doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist!!
To have this CA "clown" drop his 2 cents worth like he did, would have gotten his hand nailed to the boardroom table with a steak knife by me personally if he was on my project.
This obviously is not directed at any of you gentlemen and I appreciate this forum for the sensible and rational environment if has. I just had to leave the reservation for a moment. I also appreciate the .COM "uberwacht" moderators for taking the time to come over here and have a discussion with these board members.
Have a good day or evening gentlemen.
Oh and I forgot to say something...(can you believe that?? ~;) )
I had a great time play over Easter. But you know what happened?
I was determined to finish my first and ONLY Long Imperial Campaign with the Julii, which I have been playing since November last year.
There I was never reloading out of respect for the Load Game bug...and what happened??
I'm glad you asked...
I came back from making my 5th cup of coffee and the god damn bloody sound effect loop bug happened!!! Guess what the only fix is?? You guys know of course. Save the game quit the application and reload!!!
NICE little set of circumstances wouldn't you say!! It happened 3 times over a 4 day Easter extravaganza of ROME TOTAL %#$%^ and of course it happened once when I was fighting over ROME itself in the year 50BC and the Scipii were beseiging me!! They left of course because they had "OTHER" priorities. None of course that I could fathom, but then I'm just a slack jawed moron as far as 7 post CA "piss head" is concerned.
Originally Posted by AussieGiant:
The only fix to that problem is... to turn the music off.
Oh and I forgot to say something...(can you believe that?? ~;) )
I had a great time play over Easter. But you know what happened?
(...)
I came back from making my 5th cup of coffee and the god damn bloody sound effect loop bug happened!!! Guess what the only fix is?? You guys know of course. Save the game quit the application and reload!!!
(...)
I was playing RTW over Easter while listening to "Messias" by Händel. The quasi-latin songs of RTW just do not campare to that...
Originally Posted by Browning:
Well that is very cultural of you Browning. I have never thought of doing that. Don't you lose some feeling for the battles when you can't hear what is happening?
The only fix to that problem is... to turn the music off.
I was playing RTW over Easter while listening to "Messias" by Händel. The quasi-latin songs of RTW just do not campare to that...
I played a battle with the loop going and it was very off putting. I realised I used many of the audio sounds and queue's for how the battle was going.
Oh you mean, during a VERY LONG session, not only the music gets choppy, but the sound effects also?
I am with you, I don't imagine playing a battle without sound effects.
Clarification: by saying "Playing over Easter" I meant "doing my 3 hrs sessions, which is 2hrs longer than I can usually afford".
Browning I think we have "crossed our wires" a bit ~:)
I mean I played the game for 6 hours... then left to get "another" coffee and came back with the sound looping through one particular section. Like an order in the battle map or background music in the stat map. It just started looping...not static or chopping just the same sound over and over again.
1 to 3 hour sessions are kinda short for me ~D
Originally Posted by Intrepid Sidekick:
Ok so if you really care about the quality of your games then how about requesting to your boss that a patch is released to finalise the last issues created or left over from patch 1.2.
Will there be an expansion?
Do we care about the quality of our games?
Yes. Deeply.
I can't think of any other reason for the amount of time and work we put in to producing our games.
We would all rather make great games than work in a dull 9-5 office or produce "run of the mill clones".
I, as do many here, smile ruefully when certain people suggest we don't care or that monkey typists could do better. ~:confused: Perhaps this comes about from a misunderstanding of just how many and how complex the mechanisms we put in place are, to get the game to a playable state, let alone the polished state we like to aim for.
As we live in a real world, we have to deal with some limitations in terms of money and manpower and thus also in terms of time. The result is that we can miss stuff or get it wrong :embarassed: And for this we are very sorry.
If your boss or whoever says no, then how about asking that you fix the bug in your spare time and release an unofficial patch.
The main issues that I'm talking about are
(1) Why is the AI no longer as agressive in v1.2 as it was in v1.0 ? I'm only really able to play 1 or 2 turns per session, but the AI doesn't seem to be doing anything agressive against me whilst in v1.0 I was fighting for my life in the early stages. No or little regions seems to ever change hands.
(2) Why are fewer ships being built in v1.2 as opposed to v1.0 ?
(3) After uninstalling RTW and then attempting to reinstall RTW v1.2 patch, it's impossible to re-install patch v1.2 as it thinks that it's already installed.
If you really except us to believe that your care then prove it but so far the actions from CA suggest otherwise.
Ignoring posts about potential issues, making no statements about patches and finally having a CA staff member on .com forum stating that a seige loadgame bug is not a bug but indeed a "feature" (or that the AI is simply thick), all suggest to me a company that doesn't care about the quality of it's games and more especially that it doesn't care about the customers who bought said games.
So come on CA, prove that you really care and prove it. But why come along and make posts saying that customers are silly for thinking that you don't care about the quality of your games when your actions (or rather lack of actions) suggest otherwise.
Cheers
Starkhorn
Originally Posted by Bhruic:
my guess is that he'd claim that your claims about his claims only points to the validity of his original claims.
Funny how all of his "evidence to the contrary" actually points to the bug's existence.
Bh
:duel:
:charge:
~:cheers:
i think his characterization of us as UFO-sightings fanatics is quite indicative of his underlying and pervasive attitude of condescencion towards the community.
From TheShogun over a .com.
"Guys this thread has just about run it's course before it's heads down flame alley, so I moved the thread to rants and raves. "
So they've moved the 12 page thread over to Rants and Raves now which basically means that they are no longer taken this issue seriously (not that they ever did seem to take it seriously) and that they 100% truly believe that this issue is a not a bug.
I had hoped that the CA Staff member who made the comment was only speaking for himself and that CA would come out and say something else....how naive of me.
Basically it proves once again that they are just trying to sweep this under the carpet and ignore everyone.
Bravo CA for your customer service and feedback.
Cheers
Starkhorn
all pretty much the same issue and the samer complaints Threads merged
Originally Posted by starkhorn:
Well that is just Exxxcellent!! *sarcasm*
From TheShogun over a .com.
"Guys this thread has just about run it's course before it's heads down flame alley, so I moved the thread to rants and raves. "
So they've moved the 12 page thread over to Rants and Raves now which basically means that they are no longer taken this issue seriously (not that they ever did seem to take it seriously) and that they 100% truly believe that this issue is a not a bug.
I had hoped that the CA Staff member who made the comment was only speaking for himself and that CA would come out and say something else....how naive of me.
Basically it proves once again that they are just trying to sweep this under the carpet and ignore everyone.
Bravo CA for your customer service and feedback.
Cheers
Starkhorn
The thread in question has been restarted (not by me).
Let's hope the stubbornness the community addresses the issue will get noted by the developers and convince them that it is a real problem - the issue, not the stubbornness.
********************************************
IMPORTANT INFO HERE: CODERS PLEASE READ THIS
********************************************
Ok, I think there is something more into this bug (or "strange animal" whatever...):
This requires one minute of testing a top.
1) Start game as Brutii or Scipii.
2) Save the game.
3) Press end of turn.
4) Julii will 100% of time take Segesta.
5) Now load saved game.
6) Press end of turn.
7) Julii will NEVER take Segesta, they'll just regroup!
Now, this makes my earlier hypothesis of AI losing long term plans, since they don't get saved, a little bit dodgy. This happens on 1st turn, before Julii had any plans.
Is it possible that loading game, corrupts AI logic in such way that they somehow don't try offensive actions in turn after load?
By trying similar tests in long term (EndOfTurn/save/load/EndOfTurn cycle), it happens that no territiry switches hand for whole game. This includes terriories without walls, so it's definetly not just seiges problem.
This bug (or "strange animal") affects mostly players that don't play long-term sessions, as well as late and mid game when turns get very long.
An amazing definition of a bug; no CTD no bug. :shakes head:
This whole debacle with RTW is really really disappointing. There seems to be no point in trying to be constructive any more. IMO, all thats left is to try to pass our disatisfaction on to the game review sites and influence CA's (self destructive) behaviour in that manner.
player1,
I tell you something...between you and DimeBagHo's very simple test parameters these CA guys really do have their heads where the sun is not shining.
It really is embaressing.
Oh and have you seen the view hits on this topic from potentially hundreds of people instested in the topic!!!
LOL!! The traction this topic is getting is incredible.
If you refresh ever 3 minutes the number keeps going up and up!!
Originally Posted by :
~:rolleyes: ~:rolleyes: ~D ~D
the BUG is YOU not the GAME
Paraphrasing: "One morning, Gregor Samsa woke up transformed into a cockroach... "
This is a really retarded viewpoint. I don't think I ever used this term on these forums before, but this one deserves every letter of it. That's right, I'm the bug because I bought this product in the first place, and I thought that I could *reload* a friggin game save, oh the insolence. Me buying this game was a glitch in the system that needs to be corrected. I assure you, however, that unlike with some other problems the patch in this particular case is on its way.
OT:
The fact that they have "techincal moderators" (Spelling original!) on those boards speaks volumes on the moderation quality on .com !
Greetings Ladies and Gentlemen,
@Bat: We have a definite disagreement about what is a rant. I posted my original document here so the entire community would at least get to read it. If you really believed it needed to be in rants, then you should have moved it NOT censored ++++++++++++++++++. It sure doesn't surprise me that YOU think you're fair. Oh, and since it's a volunteer position, how do I volunteer? Please don't try to tell me you don't moderate to a CA mandated agenda. I've been around the block a few times. I won't waste my time posting where the forum is not legitimate.
Now, to the subject at hand: like Red Harvest and Bhruic, I work in software development. Do you think that just maybe, we know what a freakin BUG is???!!! All we are seeing here is absolutely PATHETIC attempts at damage control, none of which involve a real solution, or even an acknowledgement of the bug's existence!! I've been holding off from speaking with my personal contacts in the game review industry, because I think it is only fair to give CA/Activision/SEGA a fair chance to resolve this issue. But if they don't want to play ball, then I will bend some ears until they look like Mr Spock on Star Trek. You reap what you sow: if CA wants to alienate their customers, they shouldn't be surprised when they reap the whirlwind.
@CA Staff: it is totally inexcusable to insult your customers under any circumstances. Can't you get that very basic customer service premise? It's clear to me, that at least some of you think we "plebians" cannot say anything to you worth hearing. Well please do us a favor, and at least pretend to care and respect our opinions. Then you can make fun of us privately with no hard feelings on our part. We have been insulted by a staff member telling us "we had no clue", about the problem, and then, this all time classic: "The BUG is YOU"!! If any dev ever had the audacity to speak like that to a customer in my organization, his/her head would be rolling down the hall inside of 3 seconds.
I consider the option of speaking with game review sources to be the option of last resort because it is lose/lose for CA and the customer. The win/win option is for CA to listen to what we have said, evaluate and assess it objectively, respond to our concerns and provide a working solution for the issues. Though this will cost T&E for CA, it will bring loyalty back from the consumers, and rather than criticizing CA, we will praise their willingness to do "whatever it takes" to make things right. Please, don't let this be a case where the consumers have nothing left to hope for but, REVENGE.
Have a pleasant day all
Well this experience and other games is beginning to open my eyes to a demand some sort of bug/patch watching website or forum for games. i.e. where serious bugs exist in games which game developers don't want to acknowledge or fix.
Might be useful, especially if game magazines start taking an interest.
Does any such website exist ?
Cheers
Starkhorn