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Re: A thin line of spears
I tried a few battles with Germanic phalanges vs Cataphracts. In all instances, with ranks of 5,4,3 and 2 deep, the Cataphracts were routed. Even through the horses managed to punch through the lines everytime.
Against legionares the phalanges were defeated everytime. Again with each line depth played. As Doug mentioned the leftward shuffle becomes quite pronounced the thinner the line. So much so that left to their own devices the phalanx will shuffle away from the enemy to present their two man flank. Picture a mace with the phalanx as the handle and the legionares as the head. They get chewed up quite quickly at this point. These were all 1:1 battles so the flanks were easily attacked.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziu
I tried a few battles with Germanic phalanges vs Cataphracts. In all instances, with ranks of 5,4,3 and 2 deep, the Cataphracts were routed. Even through the horses managed to punch through the lines everytime.
No doubt, Ziu, but the German spear warband has 120 men (large unit size) to the Greek hoplite's 80, and an attack of 9, charge of 8 and a defense of 11.
More important, though is the fact that the German warbands stats can't drop to a weaker alternative weapon because they don't have a sword.
The hoplite's stats are 7-6-16 WHEN the hoplites DON'T lose order and drop their spears. With swords, the stats go down to 5-2-16.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Cav jumping spears/pikes annoyed me so much I tried to fix it by editing out the charge_jump cas in the animations pak.
Due to my newb technical abillity havent succeeded,but Vercingetorix the master :bow: has.
A small file fix is availiable Here
pike_jumping_cav_fix
I tested it using 8 macedonian phalanx units from levy up against 12 gallic cav(cpu attack).In a single line at standard depth the phalanx all used spear except at the flanks where swords were used.They dealt with the cav very easily with only 1 unit sustaining significant losses.
Definitely worth downloading.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
No doubt, Ziu, but the German spear warband has 120 men (large unit size) to the Greek hoplite's 80, and an attack of 9, charge of 8 and a defense of 11.
More important, though is the fact that the German warbands stats can't drop to a weaker alternative weapon because they don't have a sword.
The hoplite's stats are 7-6-16 WHEN the hoplites DON'T lose order and drop their spears. With swords, the stats go down to 5-2-16.
That's true. I just thought it might be interesting to compare with other phalanx units available in the game. Sorry if it was a irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid_Quibley
Cav jumping spears/pikes annoyed me so much I tried to fix it by editing out the charge_jump cas in the animations pak.
Due to my newb technical abillity haven't succeeded, but Vercingetorix the master :bow: has.
I've played computer games since the 1980s. I have never, NEVER downloaded a "home remedy" from anyone.
Until tonight.
Tell Vercingetorix that the fix is fabulous. Cataphracts still beat Greek hoplites, but it took a long while -- quite long enough to have sent for reinforcements in a real battle -- while the Greeks were in a five-deep formation.
Sanity was restored -- the cataphracts blew right through the two-rank thin line like it was paper, routing the bunch in a few seconds.
Outstanding in every way. Highly recommended -- and I'm a die-hard Parthian cavalry guy.
Now if we can just find a solution for the infantry. (See Watchman quote below.)
=======
I've never seen the movie Pearl Harbor. I refused to go see it after watching the previews, which had Japanese planes at cropdusting altitude buzzing some lady in a field. There, I sneered, was a neat visual effect trumping all reason.
Same thing with flying cataphracts.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziu
That's true. I just thought it might be interesting to compare with other phalanx units available in the game. Sorry if it was a irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic.
Oops. My bad, Ziu. Yes, we should see how other units do. It's not irrelevant at all. Needs to be done. I got on the technical side and got tunnel vision. Recommend you download that "flying cataphract" fix mentioned above. The Germans will do even better.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Excellent thread! ~:cheers:
I was having trouble with that horse jumping/wraparound issue as well and always thought that more ranks would be better. D'oh!
Really like the discussion and there's also Vercingetorix's fix. Vote to get this stickied or at least indexed.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Brilliant threads - both this and the one in the monastery.
Quick question - Vercingetorix's fix, can this be applied mid-campaign? My Seleucid war machine has just pacified the east, and I'm about to take on the Romans, and wouldn't mind fixing my phalanges before I go. Not that the Roman's have much cavalry to worry about, of course.
Also, is there a list of all these little fixes and files anywhere? A menu, if you will.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fridge
Quick question - Vercingetorix's fix, can this be applied mid-campaign?
Should work fine mid campaign as it doesnt alter any files relating to save game just negates the jump anim.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Interesting discussion, but just to return to Doug's original points about RTW gameplay is there any truth in RTW that cavalry does much more damage to your infantry if it is caught "on the run"? For example, if you try to deploy your infantry to a new location and formation by dragging the mouse, and the AI cav catches you before you finish, you seem to get butchered. This is true even if you are facing the cav and seems to be because deploying opens up small gaps between the men in your formation that the cavalry exploit. I've encountered it often, trying to maneouvre around the last AI cav in a city forum. If true, it's a nice feature. It seems to somewhat contradict Doug's point about thin lines - maybe it's just saying you need a close formation, not a deep one.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
... is there any truth in RTW that cavalry does much more damage to your infantry if it is caught "on the run"? For example, if you try to deploy your infantry to a new location and formation by dragging the mouse, and the AI cav catches you before you finish, you seem to get butchered.
This is definitely one of those things I've seen but can't offer proof or a test. I've seen infantry get truly clobbered just because it raised spears and was in the middle of changing facing, much less moving to a new location or changing its formation.
Quote:
It seems to somewhat contradict Doug's point about thin lines - maybe it's just saying you need a close formation, not a deep one.
Not necessarily -- the infantry needs to be in position and formed up., thick or thin. However, it is true that a long, thin lines take longer to get completely in position than a short, thick one.
I don't play with spear units much, but I always turn phalanx off and click the run button when repositioning them, even if it's just a change of facing.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
...
The hoplite's stats are 7-6-16 WHEN the hoplites DON'T lose order and drop their spears. With swords, the stats go down to 5-2-16.
Not in my game they don't : I modded the Hoplite units to have the same sword skill as spear skill {except for the militia hoplites ; I only consider them to be using daggers and they are supposed to suck somewhat} .
Combined with Vercingetorix' fix they chew up frontal cavalry nicely and don't look so silly when their silly sidestep dance lets an enemy unit wrap their flank .
I think I'll leave the pike units sword skills alone though .
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
Hopefully it is not too late to contribute a few personal experiences after an entire Sunday of struggle. The following suggestions are based on vanilla patch 1.1, VH difficulty and Huge unit size.
A working phalanx, with their spear sticking out, is undestructable against regular, non-phalanx infantry, no matter how sharp their blades, and how naked and chest-hairless your men are. This is because the enemy soldiers can't even get close enough to you to start their attack animation, so there is no chance for your phalanx to get scratched.
Of course, things are not always so ideal, so you will lose a few men due to a "temporarily" disrupted formation. This can happen... of couse when you get flanked or backstabbed. There are some not so obvious circumstances, which you obviously want to avoid:
(1) Enemies' strong charge, head on.
Usually by cavalry, or some infantry that has a fast running speed and charging bonus. A powerful charge will rush into a phalanx formation, and suddenly all the phalanx spearmen decides to abandon their good spears and switch to tiny softy knives that can't touch anything.
Actually, every faction uses some cavalry, so it is very likely that some suicide generals will eventually rush and jump into a phalanx line, thus screwing up your phalanx formation entirely (because they all switch to that f* knife!). That's why people don't like to play phalanx on VH. Because of the +7 attack bonus the enemy has, your formation gets disrupted very often, and so your men all prefer their tiny softy knives. You will end up losing more men than the enemy.
That's also why people complain about Germany spear warband. (or admire, depending on whether you speak German I guess ~D) These spearmen don't carry a little knife, so they are forced to stick with their spears even if someone rushed into their lines. This disadvantage actually makes them THE MOST USEFUL phalanx in the RTW world, because they always maintain their phalanx formation. Keeping their spears maintain their bonus against charged-in cavalries, holding the majority of them at a distance. At the same time, the rear guys get rid of the disruptors quickly and resume the great spear wall. If you are frustrated with regular phalanx and want to see what kind of damage they are supposed to deliver, definitely give these spear warbands a try. If you don't laugh in your sleep, I guarantee you still laugh in front of your monitor.
So for regular phalanx that does carry a little knife, there is no way to avoid enemy cavalry charging into your line and distrupt your formation. All you can do is make sure your better phalanx are used against these charges, and make your poorer phalanx against poorer infantry.
The other source of disruption is, shamefully:
(2) Our own fault.
Phalanx requires a few extra care to manuever. I have failed it so many times that I learned a few tips:
2a. Don't order a phalanx to attack an enemy. Just tell them to walk to a distant line behind the enemy line.
Most of the time they will deform their lines when hearing the attack command, and some stupid soldiers will go ahead, while others dropped behind. Even worse is the "double right click" charge. You don't need the charge attack bonus at all - because the enemy can't touch you when you have your phalanx formation intact.
You can group your phalanx, so you can order the entire line walk together at the same time.
2b. Order your soldiers to stop walking when other units are engaged.
This way you keep your entire wall as one single line. The AI is sometimes smart enough to detect a gap in your wall, and assign some units to flank from there.
Don't worry about the engaged unit, as long as they keep the formation, they are safe. If their formation is gone and you can see close-distance combat, they will be dead before your other phalanx turns 90 degrees trying to flank.
2c. Order your soldiers to stop and continue walking when the engaged unit rout.
You don't want to chase the routers because you can't catch them, and you don't want your line disrupted when there are other non-routing enemy units nearby. The AI will sense where weakness is, and preferably attack the non-functioning phalanx.
Guard mode doesn't help at all. One time I had my phalanx on guard mode, and after routing the enemy, they gladly decided to rotate 180 degrees to show their arses to the 2nd wave of charge.
When I stick to these 3 simple rules my Germania spearwarband are simply invincible on the battlefield. Never did I see any unit like this in VH. Well, difficulty doesn't really matter because they enemy has no chance to start swinging! ~D
Note: A thing line of phalanx work very well. 3 ranks is all you need against regular infantry. They also extend your wall longer so the enemy is less likely to get any chance to flank you. While against cavalry you will need more ranks. Or you don't need more ranks, because all your men will use knives even if it is 100 ranks! :furious3:
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
In phalanx battle, head on; you'll find that levy pikes can actually win, due to longer spears. They can also beat Spartans somehow as well...
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
This may have been posted somewhere else before, but how many of you "double-up" the phalanx?
During some bridge battles (and to a lesser extent in open battles) I have seen phalanx's completely run through by a cavalry charge. The unit becomes disorganized and while it may kill the "breaking" unit, the follow on units destroy the phalanx.
To get around this I layer one phalanx on top of another; usually dragging the second into formation so the overlap begins at the second rank. It seems that no matter how "vanilla" the phalanx is this formation will never break...even against successive waves of chariots/cav.
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
Yes. During my current Greek campaign I always double up my thin-rank phalanx. The first layer is better phalanx, while behind them is poorer militia hoplite.
The reason is the tedious tendency of soldiers trying to switch to the little knife as soon as enemy intrudes their rank. Cavalry charge will certainly go through the first player, but they will get stopped at the second.
Phalanx 1 vs. 1
The other day I had a fun experience with phalanx - a militia hoplite duel (Greek vs. Rebel), huge unit size, VH.
Since the difficulty was VH I thought I was going to lose for sure, but just for fun I gave it a try. I set my formation 3-rank deep, instead of 5-rank deep used by AI. I approached the AI phalanx with an angle closing up from the right, meaning my right section will engage the AI's left section first, while some of my guys will be poking their left flank including their captain. I also stationed my men at a slightly higher ground.
My pikes had a slightly faster kill rate, about a 10-men difference.
Their captain was poked to the ground a few times, but he managed to stay up right afterwards. I never knew pikes do that. The AI captain along killed a lot of my soldiers.
My men also shifts to the left for some reason, so finally my exteded right is totally gone. But suddenly the enemy started to rout (probably due to their morale reached a threshold), and a lot of soldiers drop dead instantly. I won the battle with 90 left.
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Spears, short phalanx spears, and long phalanx spears/pikes, should all get considerable rank bonuses for depth. I am NOT saying they do. However they should. Part should be defense, part offense, part morale, and part push back. Defense should run deeper than offense, while push back and morale run deeper still.
Do you know what pushback does? In MTW, it gives 300% increase of chance to kill on the next combat cycle. I remember long threads during MTW v1.0 where people argued that swords should be better vs spears, and that cav should be better vs spears. CA made those changes in MTW v1.1 by giving swords a 40% better attack vs spears and giving cav a chance to pushback a spear. The cav knights were also made 25% cheaper and the spears 15% more expensive. The result was that spears disappeared from MP.
It seems to me the rank bonus has been removed because the engine is now 3D, and if there is a spear point hitting an enemy man it is included in the combat. This wouldn't be the case with 2D sprites where the man had to come in contact with the enemy in order to fight. I wonder if the phalanx is having trouble because too much frontal penetration is being allowed?
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
Another tidbit:
If you find a phalanx unit switching to swords to fight (usually a bad thing), and want them to go back to swords, hit "Halt" a few times. Often they'll reform a pseudo-phalanx (in some random direction), and kill a bunch of the attackers in the process. Very devastating when it works. Obviously this won't work when fighting atop a wall.
Another trick I've used is when the phalanx is fighting, but they are pointing the spears the wrong way, I'll order a rotation to get them to face the way I want them to. Very useful when a phalanx unit is intercepted going through a wall breach before they have time to reform. The unit will usually get a bunch of the spears pointing the right way. If the unit draws swords, try the "Halt" trick mentioned above to get them back into spear-mode.
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
As I understand it, the tendency to drift to the right was inherent to the phalanx, as some men involved attempted to squeeze themselves further under the protection of the shield of the man to the right of them, which resulted in the man to his left having to move right to stay under the original man's shield, and hence a chain reaction on down the line. As a result, the entire formation would often shift to the right (I know the phenomenon was touched on in the course of either Stephen Pressfield's "Gates of Fire" or "Tides of War"--unfortunately, I don't recall which right off hand).
This wasn't a good quality, however, and the tendency was drilled out of more experienced and disciplined troops. Has anybody tested to see if there's a correlation between the amount of right-shifting and the level of unit experience? If green troops shift to the right a great deal while seasoned troops are far more stable, this might actually be a rather clever depiction of a very real quirk inherent to the phalanx.
--Warspite
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
Hi
I have a question for you, phalanx experts :)
Did you try to experiment with short_spear hoplites (The ones, with only 2 ranks fighting)? I` ve just discovered this attribute and thought, that it could represent classical hoplites a bit better, as they did not have especially long spears (~2m IIRC).
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Re: A thin line of spears
nice thread,
i've read 'alexander the great' by an itailan scientist and the book claimed that the phalanx units had different spear sizes so they could form a solid wall of spears to the enemy. is this do-able for rtw, to amke spear sizes differnet per unit?
also, in the alexander book, the macedonians had an elite foot-soldier, the schild-dragers( dutch) wich is free-translated for shield-barer, they had a large shield and a sword.
alexanders elite unit in wich he rode, called 'the point' ( another free translation) the were cav. and had two throwing spear, a shield and a lance for h2h combat.
if this were to be duable for an rtw mod, please let me know.
and a noob-question: how do you put units in deep formation?
PS: someone posted that deep-formed phalanxes had a lot of pushing power,
assuming this is true, then why is a phalanx alsways in defence when you start a battle? did anybody find an explenation for why they made it like that?
it couldn't have been an accident
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Re: A thin line of spears
Heh... Finally found something to prove the Macedonain hoplite was indeed there. I knew I had read about them somewhere, this isn't it but it merely substantiates my point.
Macedonian hoplite marching with Lakedaimonian and Cretan
This is from Osprey's "Warriors of Ancient Greece. They don't dabble in total speculation and normally back up their images with archeological, written or pictorial evidence. So in this case we might say that he didn't look like that, or that he wasn't there (with the Spartan and Cretan), but he existed, that much I'm sure of.
By the way, there are quite a few more scans here. You might find them interesting CBR. Lots of Osprey scans.
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Re: A thin line of spears
If you are climbing up an opposed incline where you occationally need to put down one hand to steady yourself, it becomes rather apparent that pulling along a pike is not optimal. A spear on the other hand is rather more nimble and you can even use it as a walkingstick (not fully but you can use the buttspike more readily than that of the pike). Of course they could have dropped their main weapon entirely, but I don't think so for two reasons. It is not mentioned that they did that (or were even armed different than normal) and since the enemy carried spears it would give them the edge in combat.
Issus was not won by means of infantry, but their role was important anyway. They needed to keep the Persian infantry occupied while Alexander and his Companions rolled up the Persian flank. In broard terms much the same as Gaugamela (but there are a lot of subtle differences, such as the echelon lineup of the Macdonians).
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid_Quibley
Cav jumping spears/pikes annoyed me so much I tried to fix it by editing out the charge_jump cas in the animations pak.
Due to my newb technical abillity havent succeeded,but Vercingetorix the master :bow: has.
A small file fix is availiable
Here
pike_jumping_cav_fix
I tested it using 8 macedonian phalanx units from levy up against 12 gallic cav(cpu attack).In a single line at standard depth the phalanx all used spear except at the flanks where swords were used.They dealt with the cav very easily with only 1 unit sustaining significant losses.
Definitely worth downloading.
Ive been suffering from my flax totally failing to stop a cav charge for ages and this fix sounds wonderfull but the link seems out of date is there anyway I can get my hands on it?
Thanx in advance
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Re: A thin line of spears
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerby
hi again,
is phalanx drift specially programmed by CA or did is it a ( historically accuarte) bug?
in both cases, its needs to be rmoved/fixed. the drift wasn't so much and it decreases gameplay a lot.
It seems to be deliberate feature and not a bug, but I have not noticed any devs talking about this, so I can't know for sure. And it is most certainly not historically accurate.
There was a drift, but it was significantly less, didn't seem to depend on depth, only affected hoplites and only happened during the march to battle and never in melee (which has been elaborated on quite few times already in this thread).
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Re: A thin line of spears
No delete button?
About phalanx pushing and changing unit mass since it still is about what is covered to some degree in this thread, here's the link to the one it should have wen into in the first place.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...3&postcount=68
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
For the problem of hoplites, pikemen, etc. not being able to push through a line, I've found that raising the unit's mass helps (ran 6 trials) just now - V1.2. Spartan vs. Hastati. I wanted a unit that could kill quick on offense along with one that would stand it's ground on defence to take less time. It isn't much of an increase when you first make contact (you'll shove the first two lines into one which makes them die rather quick) and it gives it enough to punch completely through a line. You may have to click attack a couple times during that units battle as once you get severely flanked (since a Hastati line is slightly wider, it will happen), they stop for some reason. While a good deal of the "push" comes from dead soldiers, once you break down an enemy formation into about two lines (Hastati being the tested enemy), you can see the Spartans pushing the formation (minus the flanks of it) back at spear point dramatically - I pushed completely through to the point that I had hastati approx. several ranks behind me - still in gaurd mode. Those that aren't in the front of the line will wind up flanking you without even moving.
Mass 1.3: Only the last line will show any real movement from being pushed, but there is some going on (Spartans). No real pushing at all (mass 1) (Militia Hoplites)
Mass 1.99: The last three lines show movement (BARELY), at two it is somewhat noticeable, and by the time you get down to the last line (intact that is), you'll have driven completely through the ranks and you'll have the last line pushed back several lines from it's start, and being pushed back considerably further. (Spartans). Seems a tad better, not much though (Militia Hoplites).
I had thought the mass variable only effected how calavry charges are absorbed - but going by the admittedly few runs I've made in testing, it doesn't seem to be the case. I'd have to run more trials (or someone else would) before I'd decide to stand behind this as fact. Six runs isn't a large sample size admittedly and I could have been getting some happy math in my favor during this.
EDIT: It appears there MIGHT be some correllation - just that all it takes is one to bring the whole line to a stop making testing this a pain. One Hastati past the initial spears stops everything - gaurd mode will prevent this though. Also tried with Militia Hoplites - they didn't really push worth a squat regardless of the setting, and by the time they did, they lost so many that they would route 2-3 lines in at half strength. 4 trials were done with militia hoplites each at 1 and 1.99 mass. Anytime I got penetration with them, they started dying VERY quickly and would route 2-3 lines in.
In the end, I can't truly say if it works or not.
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Re: A thin line of spears
so hwo is guard mode affecting the push?
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerby
so hwo is guard mode affecting the push?
Gaurd will keep them stabbing a bit longer, sometimes all the way through. It will at least kill more of them before the AI tells them to spread out (like they are taking arrow fire) even if you have a unit which won't make it through. After they spread out, if your using a low morale pike unit, your going to route quickly if the target isn't mostly dead, gaurd mode or not. Base 4-6 morale units don't take to being flanked very well - and pushing through gets you flanked even with a single unit vs. another thanks to how dense a phalnx needs to be to be effective. Do a custom battle with militia hoplites vs. Hastati. You'll get routed nearly every time, but at least with gaurd mode on, you'll have a chance to kill more of them with a lot less supervision. Then try it with any decent unit (8 morale or so). I've played with it a bit more and I really can't discern any effect from raising the mass thanks to an AI bug making timing this impossible wihtout a lot of added runs and patience (I don't have the time or patience). Any unit that falls over then stands up in the pike mass behind the first row of pikes will not be pushed and seemingly doesn't take damage until attack is reclicked or one waits about 5 seconds (sometimes longer). Once that unit in the pikes does anything - it generally will die. That tells me the AI isn't immediately updating or has some built in delay when dealing with individual soldiers. With gaurd mode on, all the pikes will keep stabbing, although quite quickly, nobody will be in range except the stuck unit as they'll die. Without gaurd mode, they'll generally stop stabbing ecept for those pikes around the person standing up in the mass of them. The attacks don't do damage until you click to attack or wait for the AI to resolve the issue itself, but the animation is there. The whole problem with that unit standing up is that he doesn't get pushed at all until he does something. That takes a bit for that to happen due to AI behavior.
In short if you want pikes to push, it seems the best way of doing it is just to up their attack. If you don't want them to absolutely maul calvary (since they have a bonus or should), adding a negative bonus against calvary would offset that. They'll then just be a bit better at killing troops and as effective as normal against calvary. If you leave the sec stat the same as it normally is, it wouldn't effect flanking and the damage recieved after they drop their pikes from being flanked. Damage matters a lot more than mass. Higher damage means less of a chance of someone "waking up" between the pikes. Rarely happens with Spartans, happens often with Militia Hoplites (even if given the same stats for all but attack - so it is an issue with damage).
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Re: A thin line of spears
If you want pikes to push, you need to increase their mass. Mass = push. Unfortunately, in my attempts to test formation depth, I never found depth directly influencing the push. Kill rate does, but it is not push, it is actually allowing displacement through attrition of the enemy. The last thing the game needs is higher kill rates. Formation type and depth does not seem to determine push. That is why the 1.3 and 1.5 mass units can push 1.0 mass phalanx units back. It is also how cavalry pushes them back. Unfortunately, you can only reduce the ratio with cav, rather than reverse it. However, if you want to make phalanx/hoplite units behave somewhat more realistically use the masses like: militia hops/levy pikes = 1.3 phalanx pike/standard hoplites = 1.6, elites all at 1.8. The one negative is that this carries over into secondary attack, but considering the disadvantages of the phalanx at the moment, it is just compensation.
Guard mode results in phalangites/hoplites losing more rapidly in most tests I have run and most tests that others have reported. The only use I can find for it is in keeping the unit from pursuing a unit that is routing or to try to reduce formation shift. I doubt that guard mode will result in much push even with higher mass, but I haven't tested it much because guard mode loses.
Don't use VH for push tests, the kill rates are much too high. Medium is better. If anything, try reducing the lethality entry of the test units (rather than attack), so that you can distinguish better between kills and pushes.
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Re: A thin line of spears
I really didn't think much of the difficulty at the time. I don't intend on testing again since it appears mass does help. I only ran the test as some were wondering how to get them to push. I figured mass would help. Was hard to tell how I was testing (mainly difficulty). Also the random stopping of the majority of the line attacking or the fallen soldier deal made me decide it wasn't worth figuring this out anymore than I had.
As for raising the push on Militia and Levy, I wouldn't do that - esp for Militia Hoplites as it would cripple the AI immensely since it would only help them get flanked and when they get flanked they route quickly because of their whoopping 4 moral and next to no armor. Anytime you'd get into a battle and the unit doesn't have flanking protection it's gonna route a lot quicker. Most of the time the AI does get sloppy with it's units as it likes to match counter unit to counter unit more so than the unit in the best position to offset the attack. I can't count the times I've seen pikemen go clear across the battlefield in response to me sending an advanced calvary unit to a side to flank when it wouldh ave been better suited to leaving that unit there and responding with a couple less capable cav counters that would have been attacked by the flanking unit anyhow - just they don't let it get behind them.
Still, the openness of the code for much of the game is something I don't think many appreciate when talking about bugs and such. A lot of minor things can be readily addressed that normally you'd need a patch to fix. Though seeing what is wrong in "code" often makes it more obvious thus more will mention it. At least CA is releasing decent patches. I remember the last games I bought that was somewhat open (Alpha Centauri), I remember actual programmers and the lead of QA (Jeff Morris, Firaxis) even saying that it was our problem, so deal with it. A bug was either non-existant, our fault, or not an issue and we should try to work around it in how we play the game. I remember there was quite a huge group that sent in repeatable problems and they said they couldn't get it to repeat when we could on each others machines. If it was one of the few things which was .txt editable, they'd tell us to fix it. After 4 or 5 patches, it still had issues which the first patch said it fixed, completely broken. That's why I now refuse to buy any product that comes out of Firaxis or BigHugeGames (some dev staff from Firaxis went there). Also MS is known to have held back patches - I remember with AoE 2 there were many bugs which the staff said they had fixed but couldn't release a patch for because MS was against patches at the time (wanted to release only a couple large ones and even then, only after beening pressed on it for a LONG time). MS probably has changed that policy, not to mention they actual seem to provide decent QA for most their releases compared to EA and the like. I mention these only because I did just harp a bit about some rather idiotic bugs and have seen others complain about CA's patches. IMO CA has done fairly well in regards to fixes given the scope of the game and how others handle it. Also they could be hamstrung by the publisher - deals don't just include the game, but also can include who has the rights in regards to patches (and thus publishing them). There is only so much that is easily identifiable and cost effective to fix - CA probably has gotten most of those out the way. Though I'd think the siege reset would be an easy one to fix - then again, I can't look at the entire backend to say. I don't demand a bug free game if it is complex as RTW, though I'd like the bugs minimized - and that is what they've done - even the first release didn't have anything the was truly gamebreaking or truly annoying in my book. Now if I'm playing an FPS, I expect no bugs as there aren't nearly as many AI calculations going on - at least those that are going on are more apparent as to their results. Complexity determines what I expect and CA didn't disapoint.
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
I started a selucid campaign last night, and it was mainly my first time using phalanx(never bother with merc units b4, too slow for my taste).
I admit these units take patience. I tried advice from here and some things work, albeit since I only had poor morale units, its hard to see if its the unit itself or the programming sometimes.
I have witnessed cavalry charges get stopped but others push there way thru, I have seen my troops use use their spears to punch their way forward, but most of the time any success I have is because I babysit those suckers like crazy. Its bad enough I have crazy Selucid cavalry that HAS to run thru my foots formation when told to stop before hand, but activating/reactivating phalanx,guard mode, is almost making me find a non pike faction to try. But on the plus side I do love watching a phalanx engine goto work when it works right.
I did notice one thing tho, it seems if they get caught off phalanx mode they do try to correct, and it was cool watching my troops try to force some space ahead of them with the swords and if they got the room the pikes would come out. I had a battle last night with 1 column using their pikes and the other 7 still trying to make room with swords. Bad thing is, with another phalanx unit to fight this is costly.
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Re: A thin line of spears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Umeu 1
yes it was, but they used a trowing spear
they were climbers right? oh btw, it capitAl
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Re: A thin line of spears
~:cool: alexanders agrinian troops were from mountain ranges and they were very experienced mountain climbers that did indeed use throwing spears..
(i know a bit about alexander the great) ~:cool: ~D ~:cool: ~D
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Re: A thin line of spears
with how much where they in alexanders army?
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
This thread is a pruned merging of frogbeastegg's Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question, and Doug-Thompson's A thin line of spears. Click the appropriate links to see the originals.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
This may seem a little controversial to some, but I reckon phalanx units really ruin the challenge of the siege and city aspects of this game. It's almost impossible to lose a city to the AI when you're defending it with phalanx units. Simply align them in the city plaza at strategic choke points and wait for the AI to launch itself on the units in whatever random and inane order it chooses. I will sometimes lose as little as 1000 when defending cities with phalanx units. I'm not even talking about the top phalanxes either, simply militia hoplites or levy pikemen will do.
Granted, this is as much to do with the strategy the AI employs for city assaults as it is for the power of a phalanx in tight choke spots. The AI fails to use archers properly once inside the city - instead of firing on stationary units like phalanxes, it will use all archers and skirmishers in melee to get to the city plaza.. In fact, as soon as a city wall is breached or once inside a city, all AI units do is charge in an ill-thought-out manner to the city plaza.
The trouble is, trying to find a suitable solution to keeping the game challenging when using a nation with phalanx units? In the field I'm aware phalanx units are far more susceptible and major nerfing will impact on this part too much. Does anyone have any ideas?
So far, what I've decided to do is try reducing the "mass" of phalanx units a little (by 0.2), so that in city fights there will be a greater chance that a massed mob of attackers can disrupt their formations a little more.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
Granted, this is as much to do with the strategy the AI employs for city assaults as it is for the power of a phalanx in tight choke spots. The AI fails to use archers properly once inside the city - instead of firing on stationary units like phalanxes, it will use all archers and skirmishers in melee to get to the city plaza.. In fact, as soon as a city wall is breached or once inside a city, all AI units do is charge in an ill-thought-out manner to the city plaza.
I don't think there's anyway to stop the AI from charging headlong forwards with all their troops if it's written into their siege AI. You could however, try them out using their normal battle AI and see if it has anything other than catastrophic effects.
I think this could be done by doing the following. Create a normal battle in the battle editor and put a settlement into it. Mark the settlement as ambient so the AI won't think it's fighting a siege battle and the other siege special rules won't apply. Redefine the starting positions to match that of a normal siege battle and put some troops in there and see what happens.
EDIT: Okay, I did and the AI couldn't handle it. It just stood outside and tried to demolish the town with its onagers and, when they ran out of ammunition, they just stood there. Even when I was taunting them by nipping in and out of the gaping holes in my walls.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Firstly, sorry - I haven't read through the whole thread, so this might have been mentioned.
Whilst looking for something else, I found this in the pre-patch readme:
Quote:
Unit Linking
The Rome: Total War manual contains a reference to the unit linking functionality that has been removed from the 3D battle user interface. On page 53 the description of the AI assistance button states "This button replaces the linking button when a group is selected." This linking button has been removed from the game.
So it looks like it might have been originally planned to have an ability to link units into one long line.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
uhm...okay, let's try to keep this on topic. lol.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I've found out how to get a single unbroken phalanx line on vanilla RTW.
Edit the data_formation file, find the single line entry, and change the unit spacing from 2.0 to 0.0.
Hey presto, a perfect phalanx line.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
yeah this is very useful, but be careful when redrawing a new line, watch the unit shadows very carefully to see that there are no gaps. At certain lengths the arithmetic doesn't add up so men don't cover the gaps.
Also, my two cents' worth on phalanx advances--this is definitely not without loss, and may have been repeated before, but I find that as you order the phalanx to move behind the enemy line, they will eventually close to within attacking range, upon which you just hammer backspace to stop them. Phalanxes, once engaged, are best not given new orders (since they will lift up their spears etc) but this works well in siege battles when my phalanxes are in the process of entering the city, and are in jumbled formation. Just pressing halt when they are on phalanx mode halfway into the city will mean they will immediately present pikes as approximately forward as they can and get into formation at the same time.
As to attacking, whether siege or not, it seems in my experience that as long as you order them to attack with a doubleclick as said earlier in the thread, they will attack, but sometimes they walk right into the enemy, so for good measure, press backspace once they join combat to stop them from moving any further.
How I wish CA had a 'sound the general advance' option. Then the phalanx could really steamroller the enemy, one step forward at a time while pushing them back.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
This may seem a little controversial to some, but I reckon phalanx units really ruin the challenge of the siege and city aspects of this game. It's almost impossible to lose a city to the AI when you're defending it with phalanx units. Simply align them in the city plaza at strategic choke points and wait for the AI to launch itself on the units in whatever random and inane order it chooses. I will sometimes lose as little as <10 soldiers and kill >1000 when defending cities with phalanx units. I'm not even talking about the top phalanxes either, simply militia hoplites or levy pikemen will do.
Granted, this is as much to do with the strategy the AI employs for city assaults as it is for the power of a phalanx in tight choke spots. The AI fails to use archers properly once inside the city - instead of firing on stationary units like phalanxes, it will use all archers and skirmishers in melee to get to the city plaza.. In fact, as soon as a city wall is breached or once inside a city, all AI units do is charge in an ill-thought-out manner to the city plaza.
The trouble is, trying to find a suitable solution to keeping the game challenging when using a nation with phalanx units? In the field I'm aware phalanx units are far more susceptible and major nerfing will impact on this part too much. Does anyone have any ideas?
So far, what I've decided to do is try reducing the "mass" of phalanx units a little (by 0.2), so that in city fights there will be a greater chance that a massed mob of attackers can disrupt their formations a little more.
I'm using Mordred's mod where all non-spear units are reduced to 0.75 lethality, all units get a +1 to their defensive value and a +4 to their morale, movement speed is set at 0.9. This works well in the field battles. The AI's single minded selection of "best individual matchup" works better because there is more time during the fighting for those matchups to play out. Its cav flanking moves make contact with better timing as well. Although, that tactic of chasing cav with infantry didn't work well in the battle where an AI 1000 man infantry army chased my 3 units of cav all over the battlefield and I was able to inflict 800 casualties before loosing. The AI did win the battle and some of the casualties healed.
In city battles with this mod, it is easy to defend by blocking city streets with phalanx units. If you look at the layout of a typical city, there are very few streets leading to the central plaza. For cities without walls with large enough plazas, you could defend on the central plaza itself so that the option of blocking choke points is not available to you. I didn't actually have the courage to do this in my Carthaginian campaign since I didn't know if I could hold cities that way. For cities with walls, I simply sally right away when sieged thereby turning it into a field battle. This also means I have to maintain decent sized garrisons which slows down my economic expansion, and I only train or retrain one unit per turn per city. So far this has worked to make the strategic game more interesting, and the battles are already more interesting with the mod. I keep phalanx units in guard mode all the time. I would have no chance against the Roman's better armies without plenty of sacred band infantry holding the line. I suffered 2:1 casualties overall when I took on SPQR, and lost about 40 sarcred band infantry units in the 12 years it took me to defeat them. The Carthaginian campaign I'm playing is still interesting at 134 BC where I've managed to control 24 provinces and the next 26 are not going to be that easy to get. Since I got to this point with only 2 saves, the AI factions have not been overrun with rebel provinces since they always move to recapture any that revolt.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
I have read back here and have seen that there are quite a few people who actually think it is a good idea to pull your units out of phalanx, then move them in and put it back. While it looks good on paper, this is actually a really bad tactic. It works against infantry armies, but no...
I am currently playing through a campaign on Mundus Magnus, a mod which dramatically improves the campaign map and a few other things (if you still play vanilla RTW, I recommend you get it now), as the Parthians. The Seleucids are my biggest enemies, but I can easily crush their armies because of this tactic. Until I get catanks, I am using armies composed entirely of Horse Archers, Scythian Mercs or Persian Cav.
This sounds like a weak combination as there are no troops to support the missiles, but trust me, it works. To kill the Seleucids, whose armies at this stage usually compose of 70%+ phalanx units, I can simply ride over, pump their phalanxes full of arrows and wait until they get pissed off and lift their sarissas. Then, I charge straight at them causing an almost instant rout to them.
Out of the countless battles I have fought with the Seleucids, I can only remember actually losing 1 of them. I know from experience, phalanx units are pathetically weak when they aren't in that formation, so always keep those pikes ready. I think the time I did lose was because my horse archers ran out of arrows and charged into a phalanx out of impetuousity.
To summarise, when fighting eastern armies with phalanx armies, don't dare take them out of formation. The phalanx requires patience (which is why I hate using it lol) to be used successfully.
And no, lowering the sarissas in the middle of a melee does NOT work. Trust me, I know from plenty of Seleucid arse-whooping experience.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Generally, the behaviour of the AI isn`t a very good cue how to do something. Whether lifting the sarissa can work has to be found out in multiplayer.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
My campaign battles have played well with the 0.75 lethality to non-spears because I control the phalanx and don't take them out of phalanx formation, and the AI factions I've gone up against don't have phalanx units. Breaking up its battleline and lifting the pikes means the AI can't use the phalanx unit effectively.
Multiplayers repeatedly hit the "form phalanx" button because it forces the the men in the unit to switch from their sword back to their pikes momentarily.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
After a few games in multiplayer as Armenia against Roman armies (not to mention a few embarassing defeats), I did a little bit of testing on my own, with one unit of first Heavy Spearmen, and then Pontic Bronze Shields against against a single Legionnary Cohort, as an experiment to see how much time one would have to get cavalry into flanking positions.
I'm about to reiterate a lot of what's already been said, so if that bothers you you can stop reading here. :P
Anyway, I tested the spearmen twice, once in four ranks and once in two, and both times they lost badly. The first time, in four ranks, the legionnaires wrapped around the sides and routed the spearmen, and the second time they smashed through the middle of the formation and routed the spearmen.
The Bronze Shields (pikemen) did better, mainly because they're a 120-man unit on Large, against the cohort's 80. The cohort didn't wrap around until much later, and thereby nearly lost--the numbers were 27-29 in their favor at the end. The primary difference was that it took the cohort a good couple of minutes longer to break through the pike unit. In the interests of curiosity, I had six cohorts attack five units of pikemen and a unit of Cappadocian Cavalry, and in the end managed to win with surprisingly few losses.
I drew a few conclusions from this.
1. Footmen shouldn't spread out so much when they attack. Or maybe they should. All I know is that this is mostly why phalanxes lose.
2. Pikemen (and longer spears) and larger units (and larger frontages) are infinitely better at holding back good infantry.
3. It's too easy to break a phalanx formation--against the Heavy Spearmen, the cohort managed to get a good number of the spears put away during their initial charge. The pikemen fared marginally better.
4. In multiplayer, big units are practically necessary to hold off well-trained troops.
All tests were conducted with guard mode off.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Alright, I read this post to about page one, and became disturbed because I personally believe the phalanx is one of the most impressive units in the game, with the exception of one error i always get, which is while the phalanx is in combat, having random idiots walk away from the phalanx itself. IDK *** u guys mean by drifting, it seems to me that the best way to attack is in guard mode, right cliked once, once they make contact (combat symbol) you observer the enemy's counter... rushing to charge, or standing still, if they rush you, you remain in guard mode, if they stand still you turn off guard mode, and the phalanx moves steadily to defeat the enemy. I even have a video to show you fools my hoplites pwning phalanx pikemen, in a long bloody confrontation where i used guard mode/ non guard mode to it's advantage.
http://files.filefront.com/phalanxvs.../fileinfo.html
Watch this, tell me what you think, what i saw is the hoplites constantly adjusting itself to counter the pikemens sarissas. I at first was off guard mode, to close quick because of the sarissas longer length, eventually creating a gap and a rout on very hard difficulty. Playing as the greeks mostly, (although i edited them so i could use companion cavalry [greek cavalry ****]) Having spartan and armored fight as heavy infantry or a phalanx is fine enough for me, while they aren't as good as legions in hand to hand, it pins them down while u can run another hoplite unit to the flank, form a phalanx, flip off that guard mode, and turn on the meat grinder. Please give me your imput on this video and whether or not it's the problem you guys are having, because i have ALOT of experience with hoppys/phalanxs as it's all i play with...lol
Moderator note: edited for language.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
or no-one will answer .... :embarassed:
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mezmerizer
or no-one will answer .... :embarassed:
I cannot play the file here, but phalanx drift means entire units moving to the right (as opposed to forward) when the enemy was just outside spear range. The problem was solved with the 1.2 patch. I guess that is why none answered.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Not sure if this is the same thing, but in 1.5 I will get a situation where one of the members of the phalanx dawdles picking his nose or something, and then he's chasing after the rest of the unit as they move forward. Very strange and kind of comical.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
wutd u expect to happen, any troops will get slaughtered if urban cohort takes phalanx on from front with cavalry auxilia charge on the flank
its a mismatch u cant compare 2 units vs 1
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
i have try,the phalanxe still can be defeated,if you got a high armoured unit like legion cohort.First click them to run straight to the behind of phalanxe unit(or click onto unit behind it),those legions will run straight to phalanxe and impact/charge into those spears wall,force those phalanxe unit to draw their sword,then it is time for to click(attack) onto that phalanxe unit,it will defeat that phalanxe unit easily,i try it when i play julii attempt to finish that campaign faster to unlock other factions.If the phalanxe troubling you,you can try this.:2thumbsup:
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
My experiences with the phalanx have been in the begining much frustration as some have expressed.
I can confirm also what most everyone said about phalanx being more agressive with Guard Mod OFF.
After numerous campaigns playing as Greek cities a combined approach is what I now employ.
The phalanxes purpose as used by Alexander was to pin the enemy while other troops did the flankinf, in the game the Greek cities dont really get those other troops for the flanking and I have come to the conclusion that this is the missing link.
It has been the same with almost all the games in the series except Shogun total war. But if historically a certain faction was defeated that faction usually lacks advanced stage Units or a complete aray of units to do the job as effectivelly as other factions.
In other words even if we can play one of these "historically defunct" factions, we are not given the means for a full campaign in order to stay "historically correct".
In MTW Byzantium lacked the stronger units of other Factions, just because in real history they did not have the opportunity to have them. So, lets say that we accept this historical precept, what to do in game when we are faced with the ahistorical situation? We have to find ways to bypass the designed lack of units, modding in the units is an approach but lets put modding on the side for now.
Phalanx, can be used in the same fashion as alexander did. You can line up your Hoplites or Pikemen and start advancing towards the enemy line, however you have to have some units that will take the role of actually killing and routing the enemy as the phalanx will not do so in the opening stages of the fight.
What I do is have 1 phalanx with guard OFF for every 3 phalanxes in Guard mode ON.
As the battle line advances you can pin the enemy and before the enemy start spilling to the flanks you flank that enemy with the phalanx that is not on Guard Mode.
The ones on Guard take much less casualties than if they were not on Guard, in retrospect they donot do as much damage, as many of you have observesd they seem to stand there. That is hwere the flanking phalanx comes in to play they are OFF guard mode and will kill, but are more vulnerable to attack however the enemy is fighting the phalanxes in Guard mode.
Throwing in another flanking unit of peltasts or heavy peltasts and you can insure victory, as the enemy routs you advance the comlete line of defensive phalanx and thus bit by bit you take the upper hand.
Now having cavalry or mercs such as thracian/bastarnae makes things much easyer with that system.
It touk me a while to get the hand of it, as it require preparation in the deployment phase, lots of clicks and mouse drags, yet it is successfull in game.
When you dont have an army with many phalanx units I do what everyone else has said here, take guand mode OFF and expect the higher casualties.
Protecting the Flanks is always key, and it requires timing.
Macedonians are an easyer faction to use this tatic due to their superior cavalry compared to the greek cities, with greek cities it is a bit more challenging and may require pausing the fight (something that I do not like to do actually) to give proper orders and get your bearings in larger engagements.
That is it on my part and the phalanx.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar
My experiences with the phalanx have been in the begining much frustration as some have expressed.
I can confirm also what most everyone said about phalanx being more agressive with Guard Mod OFF.
After numerous campaigns playing as Greek cities a combined approach is what I now employ.
The phalanxes purpose as used by Alexander was to pin the enemy while other troops did the flankinf, in the game the Greek cities dont really get those other troops for the flanking and I have come to the conclusion that this is the missing link.
That is it on my part and the phalanx.
but you can flexible changing your hoplites to swordmen by setting your phalanxe off,while phalanxe hoplites push forward to pin the enemy,those swords hoplites can do the flanking job,use armorued hoplites as swordmen if you want to lower your casualties.....
for me,i use them as swordsmen completely,since it still got bonus against cavalry even with phalanxes off,it just won't be that effective without spearswall to hold cavalry charge(will get high casualties as get charged by cavalry)!
Those phalanxe are very good to hold off some strong units for some time,that it will buy you some time to rout those weaker units.......
i even defeat those mighty legions with phalanxe pikemen swordsarm!!!:2thumbsup:
But heavy peltast will do better since it have no penalty against infantry(decrease 4 attack),you can use them as swordmen that do the flanking job!
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
From my multiplayer experience you can use phalanx as any ordinary troops, its all about skill with the mouse+keyboard, set up the design phalanx formation before you deploy, lets say the Hannibal´s Crescent Moon Tactic with the Sacred Band´s on reserve or flanks.
Start the battle, unlock phalanx formation and set your troops to move towords the enemy, surprising them for instance with the right mouse botton and pressing "R" for run, they will immediatley form up the Crescent Moon in 3/4 secs top "in his face".
Now on how to actually use the phalanxes, this is what i learned:
1st - Its all about gravity:
- If facing down - "guard mode off" since even your weaker troops will have an increased attack vs a decreased defense of the enemy of around 25% for each making an 50% damage/defense bonus, and while advancing the enemy will have a hard time mantaining formation and isolated units will apear most of the times for easy killing.
- If Facing up, "guard mode must be on" to pin the enemy down while trying to endure the enemy´s decend bonus and losing minimal formation and gaps...
- In plains:
- "Guard mode should be on" if enemy as pikes to avoid maximum contact and try out other tactics since pikes are most vulnerable to missile fire;
- "Guard mode should be off" on our flanks to try to encircle the enemy if your line is bigger, if line is smaller, then "guard mode on"
- "Mixed Line" - Often most efective against other phalanxes - just have a chess formation on the front line and have the rear phalanxes on guard mode off, after the inital first line pin ups, just advance the rear ones towards the diagonal of the fighting enemy unit - kinda like the roman legion manipular formation.
2nd - Always upgrade your defenses to at least 26 on elite phalanx like sacred bands (making it litteraly invulrable to missile fire"), 20ich on spartans, 30ichs on armoured hoplites and the rest go at least with silver shield/weapon upgrade and 1/2 chevrons experience, else they wont be much good.
3rd - mingle one or two phalanxes on the flanks with your cav and try to draw them into your spears, its not that hard to achieve and 2 phalanxes and a couple cavs will get rid of a lot of enemy cav.
4rd - The "Scape Goat" - use your best upgraded/experienced phalanx (not pikes, unless royal pikes because of the large hoplon) in a pushing forward manouver (not a suicidal one), just enough to draw the enemy archer fire, them you can advance the rest of the line, that elite unit will soffer few losses and the rest of your army wil probably stay untouched - its kinda basic but you´ll be surprised that it works most of the times
5th - The "Torpedo" - Get you phalanx into a collumm (this providing your flanks are covered) and insert an wedge into the enemy line, he will react trying to attack your flanks moving his phalanx forward, dont engange and let him come to you, during this process a gap opens in the front, and have your reserves go in and waste his backs one by one as the enemy line starts to crumble.
6Th - The "Swiss Cheese" - Set your phalanx line into a swiss cheese, whith small gaps on it and have your light/medium/hvy infantry form up in a pilar formation, when the enemy engages there will be a time the phalanxes will go in diagonals opening gaps between them because they are in "guard mode off" and yours are in "guard mode on", just move up the fresh troops and kill the enemy phalanxes one by one.
7th - Top 10 phalanx units by order:
1 - Spartans
2 - Sacred Band
3 - Armoured Hoplite
4 - Royal Pikeman
5 - Pharao´s Guards
6 - Pontus Bronze Shield (cheaper then silver shield)
7 - Silver Shield Pikeman
8 - Poeni Infantry
9 - Armenian Heavy Spearman
10- Pontus Phalanx Pikeman
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Interesting tactics RickFGS, but this belongs more in the Colosseum.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
hammer and nail, or anything Alexander used, which I forgot the name :p. 3 or 4 good morale Phalanxes draw fires and can hold their melee enemies (about 5-6 units) in chaotic mobs at bay, make enough times for ur calvary/killing units do their jobs.
Spear units w. shield wall can be a similiar uses but they made too small formation and tend to be surrounded quickly, even they lived and do not rout, they creat a gaps to let enemy reach ur ranged troops.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Does anyone know if the phalanx formation itself gives any defensive bonuses? I always thought it did but cant find any info on it
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Iv'e seen it said before but i cannot remember where...i personally think that the best way to "fix" the phalanx is to change it comnpletley. I run my Rome in BI.exe (rtw with all the barbarian invasion fetures such as swimming). When i was researching on how to make a faction a horde, i saw a topic about the perfect phalanx. Simply change the formation in export_descr_units in the hoplites from phalanx to shieldwall. I then added in the longspear trait (can't rememeber if that's what it was called). It worked perfectly. The hoplites can charge(increasing attack) like they were able to when they were created in ancient times, they fight just like a phalanx but a little closer together which is fine because thats how close they should've been. They also still share the same defence as the phalanx but do to their close proximity they are extremely hard to break up with a frontal cavalry charge. Most importantly for examination of this thread, THEY DON'T DRIFTEver fought with hastati? yeah, they fight like that, no drifting, man to man, but they do not break apart and fight individuals outside the fight :inquisitive:
Hope i helped
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
phalanx units, they seem powerfull against any cav, but the poor thing about greeks is that they do not have any good swordsmen or cavalry. CArthage has got good phalanx units (sacred band, poeni infantry) and good cavalry (sacred ban cav.) just let your phalanxes attack the front of the enemy whil the cav strikes the enemy in the rear and flanks, that is the best phalanx tactic. i think if you use masses of swordsmen ( like Iberien Infantry) you can easly beat off phalanx units, make sure you bring enough WORTHY skirmishers/peltasts/velites with you. rhodian and balearic slingers would do it too. just let your javelineers/slingers throw their sticks to lightly decimate the enemy army, while they try any attemps to reform the line in confusion, try to attack them with cavalry in the rear, and cheap but worthy swordsmen ( Iberian Infantry) attack them in the front, enemy cant put their spears down, is trapped and get killed until the last man.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
Impressive investigation you'v egot there! How do you find this stuff out anyway?
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
I march in with swords drawn then at the last minute form a phalanx up - it can work
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Re: Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamilcarX
i think if you use masses of swordsmen ( like Iberien Infantry) you can easly beat off phalanx units, make sure you bring enough WORTHY skirmishers/peltasts/velites with you. rhodian and balearic slingers would do it too. just let your javelineers/slingers throw their sticks to lightly decimate the enemy army, while they try any attemps to reform the line in confusion, try to attack them with cavalry in the rear, and cheap but worthy swordsmen ( Iberian Infantry) attack them in the front, enemy cant put their spears down, is trapped and get killed until the last man.
Absolutely agree, Phalanxes are obsolete when you use mobile tactics. Strip off the supporting skirmishers, missile and cavalary troops in the battle preliminaries, and such slow HI becomes helpless, as they can't maneuver fast enough, nor can withdraw effectively due to threat of Cavalry charge into rear.
Adding to hamilcarX's suggestion, is that you don't engage the Phalanxes with your swordsmen frontally until they're attacked from flank(s) and preferably rear. You may also be able to make maneuvers which disrupt the phalanxes as they struggle to wheel and re-form, which (I think) helps get a good score for the javelin men.
I've had great results with humble back-peddling Velites (skirmish & auto-fire off) who are happier than Hastati to retreat, the Phalanxes frontal assault.
Consistently, I loose fewer men to Phalanx based armies, than I do to onrushing Gaul spearwarbands, especially if they're backed up by skirmishers and charging Heavy Noble Cavalry who generally inflict some losses, say 50 or so men.
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Re: Investigation of the Phalanx formation
but if it's a situation such as the samaritan mound and the enemy has not got any missile units then the phanlax would be the way to got i think but if it archers then they would be useless unless you attack the archers with a quick unit the bring the phanlax into play