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I think Palestine deserves to exist as a nation. If you want to play historical "we own this land" or "they weren't people" games with me I would discourage you to do so. The point is Palestinians are a people now and certainly quite sometime before and they deserve a country to lives, especially if their current landlords are hostile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
No I think most of us agree theres more than enough blame to go around for both sides.Quote:
Am I the only one who doesn't like either nation?
Why doesnt Palestine have the right to exist?Quote:
I think that Isreal has a right to exist and palestine doesn't
I believe we have a law against killing heads of forirgn states. You need to stop being so violent.Quote:
but I don't think we should let Sharon as leader of isreal live.
Damn straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Ask yourself, if you were born an Arab in Palestine wouldn't you want to have a nation and equal rights, self-determination and all that.
The Golden Rule applies here.
And then maybe some folks would have one less reason to want to blow themselves and us up.
ichi :bow:
1.OkQuote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
2. Because they were never granted their independance, they are too small of a minority in israel to count, many of them are members of such organizations as Al Queda and Hamas, they were offered their independance several times, declined, and now want it, the list goes on.
3. I meant live as in live as head of state not live as in alive live. And No I'm a violent person by nature that will not change...ever
Then what was the UN resolution that partioned Palestine all about?Quote:
And instead of getting personal and going on about what you think of me, you might consider answering my points.
I believe that Israel is a soverign state and a democracy to boot. They elected Sharon. Do you suggest we overthrow the Israeli government?Quote:
I meant live as in live as head of state not live as in alive live
In 1880 the population of jews living in Palestine was 24,000 compared to 450,000 Palestinians. In 1946 the figures are 600,000 jews to 1,300,000 Palestinians. For your statement to be true at least 651,000 arabs would've immigrated to Palestine that in 66 years the population of native Palestinians would've increased by less than 50%. Assuming a birthrate of at least 1% the population of native born Palestinians should have doubled. I don't have figures for birthrates at the time, but even if your right the number of native born Palestinians would've still exceeded the number of jews.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I find the possibility of a .5 percent birthrate over 66 years hard to believe.
http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/Palestine/facts.htm
I've always been a believer in open borders so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I have no problem with jews immigraiting to Palestine, but I'm pretty sure that the majority population would be pretty pissed off to learn that they were going to be ruled by foreigners who had never been to their country before.
Barring a return to slavery the treatment of blacks in the south following reconstruction couldn't have been much worse than it already was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I'm not arguing that ex-slaves had legal rights to their land, just that they should be compensated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
What legal right did ex-plantation owners have to their land? As far as I'm concerned the government has the right to seize property from treasonous citizens and redistribute it.
I'm not debating legality here, I'm debating whats right. I could care less what a piece of paper says about who owns what plot of land, once the individual who owns that plot of land chooses to commit treason against the United States of America, they forfeit any rights they held as a US citizen and that includes the right to property.
I hate to break it to you but those figures are pretty much useless. There was never a good census.
Take a look at this LINKQuote:
The precise magnitude of Arab immigration into and within Palestine is, as Bachi noted, unknown. Lack of completeness in Ottoman registration lists and British Mandatory censuses, and the immeasurable illegal, unreported, and undetected immigration during both periods make any estimate a bold venture into creative analysis. In most cases, those venturing into the realm of Palestinian demography—or other demographic analyses based on very crude data—acknowledge its limitations and the tentativeness of the conclusions that may be drawn.
My opinion is that there were people there, so they owned the land before the Zionists brought the Jews over. Regardless of whether or not they were Arab, Egyptian, Berber, Siberian or Celtic, they were there first and they owned the land.
I see no justification for the creation of Israel other than a lust for power. The Israelis can just as well pack up and leave to head somewhere else, I'm sure; it's the same way they arrived in Palestine.
This still doesn't show any proof that the majority of Palestinians were actually recent (illegal) immigrants.
All I'm getting is that the population was undercounted, of it's 2300 and I'm not thinking clearly, I gotta get some sleep.
I hate to break it to you but those figures are pretty much useless. There was never a good census.
Oh those figures are useless as they shatter your illusions .
At least he posted figures from a census that exists , not figures from a census that doesn't as you did with the 1840s census , oh dear that was another lie on your part wasn't it . ~D ~D ~D
Youve done nothing to back up your claims other than to say false.
No , I have addressed each of those lies on previous occasions , to continue doing so to someone who is either a habitual liar or suffers from severe memory loss is futile .
So I wil repeat Really gawain ? can you find a single example where I have lied ?
Oh dear the self deception...Quote:
And No I'm a violent person by nature that will not change...ever
Not at all I have no illusions. I posted the above article when I quoted that one. I also quoted articles that showed arab emigration into Palestine that you choose to ignore. Besides that did I take the 1840 census, is it MY lie. Remember what a lie is before you accuse someone of it.Quote:
Oh those figures are useless as they shatter your illusions .
At least he posted figures from a census that exists , not figures from a census that doesn't as you did with the 1840s census , oh dear that was another lie on your part wasn't it .
Same to you once more. This is really a very poor debating tactic and one that is normally below you. It shows your position as weakQuote:
No , I have addressed each of those lies on previous occasions , to continue doing so to someone who is either a habitual liar or suffers from severe memory loss is futile .
Isee youve decided that my name no onger deserves a capital G. If you want me to point out a lie by you just look at any post where you call me a liar.Quote:
So I wil repeat Really gawain ? can you find a single example where I have lied ?
what you kids need to do is inspect your own pants. discover which one of you has pants that are currently (or have recently been) on fire. that one is your liar.
Im cool and havent called anyone a liar. I have said that some things are false. I give him the benifit of the doubt that he is merely mistaken not a liar. Unfortunatly my worthy opponent seems to have a different definition of liar . He is under the impression that in all our other debates on this matter he tells the truth while I lie. He is also of the wrongful impression that he has won every debate on the matter it seems. Hes right Im wrong, thats about where his argument goes these days. There is little I can do to debate a person who calls me a habitual liar. Whats the use of trying?
Now thats funny, I don't care who you are, that's DAMN funnyQuote:
Originally Posted by Big_John
ichi :bow:
No I suggest we expose Sharon for what he is though, and maybe force him to resign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Numerous American Indian tribes, and it was stolen from them, despite some legal treaties.Quote:
Who owned the land in the 13 original American colonies, before the Declaration of Independence?