We are such proponents of a culture of life that...

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

You simply will not accept responsibility!

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I am not responsible. I do vote for representatives to Government, who do take responsibility.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

You simply will not accept responsibility for the criminal justice system.

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There are other's more worthy than me.

In a "representative" government, I have no control over the actions of my representative, accept to vote them off at the next election.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

You will not accept responsibility for what criminals do when released from prison.

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Why should I. Are they answerable to me ? I am not above the law.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

Those who are willing to accept such responsibility cannot walk away so easily

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I support "strong" law and order parties. I just don't accept the death penalty.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

It seems that the victims of murder and rape are the invisible people in your worldview.

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Never. These are very serious victims and should be looked after, by proper victim support systems. I support the "Victim Support Service" here in New Zealand, by donations.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Sounds like a plan to me - put maybe we should feed all lawyers to the sharks instead.

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As a matter of professional courtesy sharks don't eat lawyers. ~:cool:

It appears the woman will not be getting the liver because the doctors advised she would be better off with a full liver, or at least thats what I heard on the news.

Just FYI re: the title of the thread: a proponent is someone who supports something; I think you meant opponents.

~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules

a proponent is someone who supports something; I think you meant opponents.

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i think she was trying to be ironic or sarcastic.. or maybe some other -ic i don't know about.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

If you are actually unaware that criminals who get out of prison on parole or simple release tend to commit crimes then there is really nothing to say. They are called 'Repeat-Offenders', the more technical term being reciticism and it actually does happen.

Sweden hasn't had any case on what you describe for the last 40 years, atleast. No repeat-offenders in Sweden? WOW! I am impressed!

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And suddenly you talk about all kinds of crimes, instead of murder. ~:confused:

Yes, no cases of a released murderer killing again in Sweden. Cannot say if they've been arrested for other crimes.

Still waiting for the stastistics...

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Originally Posted by Ironside

And suddenly you talk about all kinds of crimes, instead of murder. ~:confused:

Yes, no cases of a released murderer killing again in Sweden. Cannot say if they've been arrested for other crimes.

Still waiting for the stastistics...

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Just want to add that it is the same for Denmark and Norway as far as I know.
Combined we might not have a lot of population (merely 19 million or so), but it does prove that the vast majority of OUR murderers (can't talk on behalf of anyone else really) become less deadly.
And a pre-emptive strike here, some murderes have been in prison before they were thrown in for their murder, just not murder.

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Originally Posted by Big_John

i think she was trying to be ironic or sarcastic.. or maybe some other -ic i don't know about.

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Thank you. Thought this made it obvious.

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Way to go, Awesomica!

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

So no, I will not be 'pure in thought and deed' but at least on my watch there will be fewer innocents in the morgue than there is now!

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Well, we're just gonna go in circles from here.

You: We're actually saving lives!

Me: We're admitedly killing innocents to do so.

You: But look at the big picture!

Me: Why not let the murderers kill the innocents instead?

You: More people will die that way!

Agree to disagree, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

And suddenly you talk about all kinds of crimes, instead of murder. ~:confused:

Yes, no cases of a released murderer killing again in Sweden. Cannot say if they've been arrested for other crimes.

Still waiting for the stastistics...

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I do not speak Swedish so my sources for what goes on in that country are rather limited. What I suspect is that the Swedes simply call murder something else. And considering that the death penalty was abolished in Sweden in 1972 I am not sure what your point is? The conditions you take credit existed before the death penalty ended?

And the reason I did not bother to answer is that it was obvious that what you were saying was not correct and that the thread has run it's course.
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In his teens Mijailovic began to exhibit violent tendencies. He had several run-ins with the police over possession of knives and harassment of other young people. In 1997 he was arrested and sent to a youth prison for stabbing his father. Ever since he has been receiving treatment for mental health problems and has consequently fallen foul of the systematic cutbacks that have taken place in Sweden’s public sector since the beginning of the 1990s.

Since 1995 many more people suffering from mental illnesses have found themselves with little or no appropriate care. Several Swedish mental health professionals and charities have pointed to Mijailovic’s case as expressing the failures of the country’s psychiatric services. Leif Silbersky, a leading defence lawyer who has experience of other cases involving mentally ill defendants, told BBC News Online, “It is a fantastic and ridiculous situation we’re in. Anna Lindh has to die so that he [Mijailovic] can get psychiatric treatment. There has to be a debate in Sweden about psychiatric care.”

According to statistics from the National Board of Health and Welfare the number of mentally ill homeless people in Sweden has substantially increased since the 1995 reforms. The proportion of homeless people suffering from mental illness increased from 18 percent in 1993 to 35 percent in 1999, a total of some 3,000 people.

In recent years there have been a number of violent attacks on the public by people with mental health problems, although the mentally ill are far more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators. Mental health professionals have pointed out that in many cases attacks by the mentally ill are desperate cries for help from people who have not received appropriate care from the public health system.
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Since I don't speak Swedish perhaps you could translate the link below for all of us so we can get the details. It may not be as advertised, so I cannot vouch for it.

Two 17 year old men were sentenced for murder to 4 years
They murdered two girls. They assault them, throw them out into the snow and then looted the girls car.
They were not mentally ill according to the Swedes but then there is a new report out telling us that 90% of murders are mentally ill.

http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/inrikes/did_7518602.asp

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An 18 year old who murdered the owner of a restaurant in Malmö last autumn has been sentenced to eight years in prison. His accomplice, who was also eighteen, will serve five years for serious assault.

On October 3rd 2004 the owners of the restaurant Wendis in Malmö were closing for the night. Mohamed Saeed Omar and Boonrawd Paernkit had hidden in the toilet and, armed with knives, pepper spray and with covered faces, planned to rob the restaurant.

The female restaurant owner was stabbed to death and her husband, Wendi Ma, was stabbed in his eyes.

Mohamed Saeed Omar was found guilty by Malmö district court of the murder and robbery of the female restaurant owner. He was also convicted for the serious assault of her husband.

His friend, Boonrawd Paernkit, was convicted to five years in prison for seriously assaulting Wendi Ma, but found not guilty of murder. Three other friends of the 18 year olds were convicted of attempted robbery and will be put into social care. They were standing outside the restaurant keeping watch during the crime.

According to Tuesday´s Dagens Nyheter the light sentences were due to the two men's age at the time of the crime. If they had been over 21 years of age they would have been seen as adults in the eyes of the law, which would have meant lifetime imprisonment for the murderer and ten years for his accomplice.

Dagens Nyheter´s Ole Rothenborg, who was at the sentencing, said that the only comment the husband had after hearing the court decision was, "it´s not fair" - suggesting that both of the youths should have been convicted for his wife's murder.

"Mohamed Saeed Omar confessed during the trial that he also kicked the woman´s head so hard when she was lying on the floor that he thought he had killed her - but it was the stabbing which killed her," continued Ole Rothenborg.

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Originally Posted by Big_John

i think she was trying to be ironic or sarcastic.. or maybe some other -ic i don't know about.

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Ah, my mistake then. Sorry P.

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I do not speak Swedish so my sources for what goes on in that country are rather limited. What I suspect is that the Swedes simply call murder something else. And considering that the death penalty was abolished in Sweden in 1972 I am not sure what your point is? The conditions you take credit existed before the death penalty ended?

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Read your homework better. Sweden havn't been in war for the last 191 years so why would we use war-time laws? Pwned ~D ~;)
Sweden abolished death penalty during peace time in 1921 and the last execution was 1910.
We got murder, 2:degree murder (manslaughter? unplanned murder) and causing another person's death (like drunk driving). I assume it's the same as all other western countries.
Are you implying that we simply call it something else only to keep some good stats that very few actually care about...?

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And the reason I did not bother to answer is that it was obvious that what you were saying was not correct and that the thread has run it's course.

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What I'm saying is that convicted murderers havn't committed murder after thier release. Thus executing them wouldn't change a thing.

So you come dragging here with the worst cases in recent time here, as proof that I'm lying? Two of the cases got shot penalties due to the low age of the perpetrators (and you can complain about that), but thier relevance here is questionable. Mijailovic got life, so it's not a proof that we don't use life sentance.
They aren't proving anything about what these criminal will when they get out and that is the issue as death penalty does nothing to deterrant crimes, and they don't even mention a previous criminal record for two cases.

Unless you either got psychics a la Minority Report, or suggesting death penalty (or permanent life in prison) in a preventine pupose (and even on this point those articles gives very little to nothing to stand on) this articles' relevence to the issue is zero, none, nada, noll, null. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Read your homework better. Sweden havn't been in war for the last 191 years so why would we use war-time laws? Pwned ~D ~;)
Sweden abolished death penalty during peace time in 1921 and the last execution was 1910.
We got murder, 2:degree murder (manslaughter? unplanned murder) and causing another person's death (like drunk driving). I assume it's the same as all other western countries.
Are you implying that we simply call it something else only to keep some good stats that very few actually care about...?



What I'm saying is that convicted murderers havn't committed murder after thier release. Thus executing them wouldn't change a thing.

So you come dragging here with the worst cases in recent time here, as proof that I'm lying? Two of the cases got shot penalties due to the low age of the perpetrators (and you can complain about that), but thier relevance here is questionable. Mijailovic got life, so it's not a proof that we don't use life sentance.
They aren't proving anything about what these criminal will when they get out and that is the issue as death penalty does nothing to deterrant crimes, and they don't even mention a previous criminal record for two cases.

Unless you either got psychics a la Minority Report, or suggesting death penalty (or permanent life in prison) in a preventine pupose (and even on this point those articles gives very little to nothing to stand on) this articles' relevence to the issue is zero, none, nada, noll, null. :bow:

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If I gave the impression that I thought you were lying then it was a false one. I thought you were mistaken that is all. Whether or not murderers have or have not committed murder after their release remains unknown as you have provided nothing to back up your claim.

I went to the site on criminal statistics for Sweden and they seemed to provide everything but the Recidivism. Maybe that's for Swedes only.

I found a brief mention about a paper that found repeat killing in 1.8% of all murder cases in Sweden during 1975-1979. Unfortunately they wanted me to pony up some cash for it and I wasn't that interested in proving you wrong.

The number of reported cases of rape doubled between 1975 and 2001 in Sweden.
The number of reported cases of violent assault tripled from 24,000 to 70,000 cases in 2001.

This is something I ran across and most of the figures for Sweden seem to be accurate. I haven't checked out the New York figures extensively but they also seem accurate.

In absolute figures the crime rates in New York (with its 8.1 million people) and Sweden (with its 8.9 million) for 2003 speaks for itself: New York had 598 murders (Sweden 189); New York 1,875 rapes (Sweden 2,565); New York 18,764 assaults (Sweden 65,177); New York 29,207 burglaries (Sweden 122,700).

All crimes but murder are lower in New York. What about the claim that Sweden is the safest place in the world - it sure has some major cracks in its façade?

Doesn't really look like paradise to me!


Of those in Sweden who during the period 1973-89 were convicted of murder or manslaughter, 25% relapsed into new crimes within three years after a sentencing, and of those who during the same time period where convicted of assault or severe assault 45% relapsed into new crimes within three years after a sentencing (according to The National Council for Crime Prevention-report, 1994). Of these who were convicted of e.g. murder the most were imprisoned during this three-year period the survey covered. It would of course have been a higher percentage if the survey would have covered 3 years after release. And yet higher if the survey would have covered 6 years after release, or 9 years, or 12 years, or 15 years ...

In three other researches by the National Swedish Prisons and Probation Administration it has been revealed that ca. 38 % of felons relapsed into new crimes after release. The National Swedish Prisons and Probation Administration - report Återfall och långtidsdömda, 1999. And the report Åter avsändaren, 1999, and the report Uppföljningsperiod 1994-1999.

When it comes to the alternative of custody a Swedish survey made by the Karolinska Institutet showed that 70% of the patients within the forensic psychiatry had committed new crimes within five years. 40% of them had relapsed into severe crime. DN 99-09-29. Another survey (SVD 99-0103) showed that out of 222 criminals who were sentenced to custody and who were released in 1996 42% committed new crimes, a total of 337 crimes. And sometimes even very heinous violent crimes.

And for comparison

In the USA a large survey showed that of the murderers and killers who were released in 1983 43% were rearrested within three years. Of these 26% were reconvicted. Of abusers 60% were rearrested after their release, and 40% were reconvicted. Bureau of Justice Statistics, Special Report 1989, Recidivism of Prisoners Released in 1983. On page 6 they write: "Released prisoners were often rearrested for the same type of crime for which they had served time in prison …Thus, released murderers were more likely than other prisoners to be rearrested for a new homicide."

Gah!!
I cannot find any good sources so I've have to use logic instead.

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I went to the site on criminal statistics for Sweden and they seemed to provide everything but the Recidivism. Maybe that's for Swedes only.

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Yes both Krå and Brå got thier info only in Swedish it seems.

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I found a brief mention about a paper that found repeat killing in 1.8% of all murder cases in Sweden during 1975-1979. Unfortunately they wanted me to pony up some cash for it and I wasn't that interested in proving you wrong.

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Can be correct, not all people that have comitted murder gets life in Sweden, but executing all murderers would make execution a quite common punishment.

To the issue. Don't you think mr David Anderson (who is the source of your second quote ~;) ) would have loved a Swedish case? Why don't he use one?

To my source it's here on Swedish.
Livstidsstraff eller inte
It's sadly only a debate article, but it is the type were a lot of the validation would disappear if he was proven wrong on that point.