Bush pledges $50 million to Palestinian Authority

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

The only thing holding the Palestinians prisoner is their own stupidity and a tendency to murder women and children.

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Silly me, and all this time I thought it was Israelis tanks and snipers.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.3 billion in U.S. economic assistance via USAID projects - more than from any other donor country.

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Since 1993 Israel has received about $35,000,000,000 from the US and used part of it to blow everything up that was built with the money the Palestinians received. They used part of the rest to finance illegal settlements, the Wall, and to finance water theft projects.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

Algeria. Egypt. Iraq. Libya. Morocco. Syria.

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I've never defended anything those countries did and am not going to start now.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

Where are your protests of outrage for them. Where are your tears, where's the love?

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I've got lots of love. :sweetheart: But most of it is directed towards the Palestinians. I fight for them. And you, showing an equitable balance in these affairs, fight for the dispossessed Jews. I'd say we have the bases covered being the good Canadians that we are. ~:cheers:

The big difference here is that the Jews took in their refugees and didnt use them as political foder. Their not making ridiculous claims for a right to return. They just want to live in peace where they are.They take care of their own. Muslims and Arabs could maybe learn something from them.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Since 1993 Israel has received about $35,000,000,000 from the US and used part of it to blow everything up that was built with the money the Palestinians received. They used part of the rest to finance illegal settlements, the Wall, and to finance water theft projects.

I've got lots of love. :sweetheart: But most of it is directed towards the Palestinians. I fight for them. And you, showing an equitable balance in these affairs, fight for the dispossessed Jews. I'd say we have the bases covered being the good Canadians that we are. ~:cheers:

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I don't carry any torch for the dispossessed Jews. What I do see is that Isreal is a friend and ally, The 'friends and allies' in the Arab states such as Saudia Arabia, Pakistan are the kind of friends who stick with you as long as your wallet lasts. The Palestinians are not even fairweather friends. They are our enemy and have proclaimed themselves such many times and their actions are clear enough. This is the reason the Isreali's get the big bucks. I for one see no reason to be nice to our enemies in the hopes they won't hurt us quite as bad as they might have. I will that that to the Europeans as it seems to be a tradition there. You would think they at least would have learned something from Munich. Nor do I see any reason in being hostile to our friends. I for one would not be supplying the Isreali's with large amounts of cash as it is poor policy, but that's another story.

Do you think the Jews expelled from Arab lands should have a right of return? Should they be compensated for what they lost?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

The big difference here is that the Jews took in their refugees and didnt use them as political foder.

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The Palestinians would be happy to welcome back other Palestinians into palestine I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Their not making ridiculous claims for a right to return.

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Pardon me? What do you call Zionists saying "There were some Jews here 2000 years ago so we want the whole place back for ourselves and bring in people from ten thousand miles away who have never even heard of the place after we boot out the locals."? That's the uber-ultra-mega right of return statement of all time.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

They just want to live in peace where they are.

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Then they should get the hell out of Palestine! Except they don't want peace. They want control.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

They take care of their own.

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Indeed. Some of the thousands and thousands of Palestinian children injured and crippled by Israeli weapons could vouch for this.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Muslims and Arabs could maybe learn something from them.

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Like what? How to shmooze three billion a year from the US? How to lay a worldwide guilt trip on every single person everywhere? How to imprison an entire people for generations and make yourself look like the victim? How to be the most efficient killers in the region? Which lesson is it you want people to learn from them?

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Do you think the Jews expelled from Arab lands should have a right of return? Should they be compensated for what they lost?

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How long ago were they expelled? If you look at any piece of land, countless of racial, ethnic and political bodies could lay legal claim to it. How far can you go back?
They should certaintly have the right to return, and they certaintly should be compenstated. But will they be compensated? Doubtful.

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The Palestinians would be happy to welcome back other Palestinians into palestine I'm sure.

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I doubt if any would want to move there. Remember its a prison.

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Pardon me? What do you call Zionists saying "There were some Jews here 2000 years ago so we want the whole place back for ourselves and bring in people from ten thousand miles away who have never even heard of the place after we boot out the locals."? That's the uber-ultra-mega right of return statement of all time.

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Thats zionism not the policy of the government of Israel. Its old and a very poor argument concerning todays problems.

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Then they should get the hell out of Palestine! Except they don't want peace. They want control.

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Palestine is a very elusive term. Exactly where are you speaking about? Again theres nothing stopping them from anexing all of the westbank much as you seem to say they want to control it.

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Indeed. Some of the thousands and thousands of Palestinian children injured and crippled by Israeli weapons could vouch for this.

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Thats all you have on your side is emotial rehtoric. The Israeilis have lost many women and children who were intentionaly targeted by Palestinians. The point is that the arabs could have taken in these refugees. You know as well as I do the game their palying here. Using the poor Palestinians as pawns in a much bigger game.

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Like what? How to shmooze three billion a year from the US?

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I think they get more than that. Egypt alone I believe get 2 billion.

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How to imprison an entire people for generations and make yourself look like the victim? How to be the most efficient killers in the region? Which lesson is it you want people to learn from them?

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Again you act barbaric you get treated as barbarians. Its the terror and the terror alone that causes their problems. You seem as blind as they to the cause of the never ending problem there.

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

How long ago were they expelled? If you look at any piece of land, countless of racial, ethnic and political bodies could lay legal claim to it. How far can you go back?
They should certaintly have the right to return, and they certaintly should be compenstated. But will they be compensated? Doubtful.

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That is exactly my point with regards to the Jews expelled in the 1950's and 60's from Arab lands and the Arabs expelled from Palestine in 1948. My opinion is that the right of return is pointless as they will simply be hounded out again. At some point you have to stop and get on with life, and let the past become history.

I'm not entirely sure on how I stand with disenfranchised peoples, I was just pointing out the fact that you can't always return native (whatever that means) people's lands to those natives.
However, wasn't the argument for Isreal in the first place was to return Jews to their homeland? I might be incorrect, but that is far less legally binding and logical than Palestinains getting at least compensated for their damaged, lost and stolen property.

And of all these groups which ones are still refugees? One single group of people have claim to that dubious honour. The Palestinians!

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Are the Hindu's and Moslems of the Indian subcontinent so much richer and better off than the Palestinians? NO! Are the Palestinians the stupidest people on earth? Well, their leadership might take that prize but I don't think they as a people are.

So what in hell are they all doing in so-called refugee camps that look striking like Arab villages from throughout the middle east? This is 57 years later. This sounds more like a political game played by the Palestinian leadership at the expense of the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians attempted to overthrow the Jordanian government in 1970 and when they were expelled from their they went to lebanon where they cheerfully helped dismantle the government. So what Arab government in their right mind would even want them around? Their leadership is directly responsible for much of the plight they find themselves in. Many other groups have 'been done wrong' and have gotten on with life. Every single other group of people mistreated from the 1940's and 50's have gone on to make a better future for themselves.

It's time for the Palestinians to get over it. Everyone else did, and some of them had a hell of a lot more to snivel about.

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Wonderful post. :thumbsup:

Again theres nothing stopping them from anexing all of the westbank
Oh yeah , they could annex it alright , then what ?
Expel all the Palestinians , that would go down really well .
Give them citizenship ? Can't do that there are too many of them it would make the Jews a minority again and a democratically elected government would be Muslim dominated .
Keep them all there without the vote as second class citizens ? Very nice .

So tell us Gawain how can Israel annex the West Bank ?

Apart from the fact that Isreal signed up to a paper which prohibits annexing land by force , oh it also prohibits moving your civilian population into occupied territory . OOOps .... Now where didi I put that settlement~D
But of course these ideas were only to intended to stop countries after a bigger living-room ~;)

Wonderful post
Yes apart from a few little details , like giving a figure for Non-Muslims fleeing from one part of the country that is near the top estimate for all people of all religeons fleeing within the whole sub-continent . It also doesn't take note that just like Palestine they have been fighting over the partition for the past 50 years , with massacres and atrocities that make Palestine look like a holiday camp .
Sooo..... just another wonderful example of the long term conflict that happens when you partition an area .

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

And of all these groups which ones are still refugees? One single group of people have claim to that dubious honour. The Palestinians!

Wonderful post. :thumbsup:

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Well I thought so, but apparently not everyone is of that opinion.

This is a Kenyan refugee camp;
http://img263.echo.cx/img263/8251/ke...camp2cy.th.jpg

This is an Afghani refugee camp;
http://img263.echo.cx/img263/4407/re...azar5gu.th.jpg

This is an Arab village;
http://img263.echo.cx/img263/8682/village26ek.th.jpg

This is what is called a Palestinian refugee camp;
http://img263.echo.cx/img263/682/ein...camp1wi.th.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Thats zionism not the policy of the government of Israel. Its old and a very poor argument concerning todays problems.

Palestine is a very elusive term. Exactly where are you speaking about? Again theres nothing stopping them from anexing all of the westbank much as you seem to say they want to control it.

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It is still the root cause of the entire problem.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Thats all you have on your side is emotial rehtoric. The Israeilis have lost many women and children who were intentionaly targeted by Palestinians. The point is that the arabs could have taken in these refugees.

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You have your emotional rhetoric and I have mine. ~;)

Besides, why should the other Arab countries have to take them in? if I steal from you, is it Panzerjager's duty to make up your loss?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

I think they get more than that. Egypt alone I believe get 2 billion.

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I wish they'd send some of those greenbacks my way. :saint:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Again you act barbaric you get treated as barbarians. Its the terror and the terror alone that causes their problems. You seem as blind as they to the cause of the never ending problem there.

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The fundemental reason for everything going on between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that the Israelis are stealing Palestinian land and resources and brutalizing the people and won't get the hell out.

You say the terror is the cause, but you have said that times were very good for the Palestinians before the Intifada, that means there was a modicum of peace. But during those times the Israelis didn't leave the occupied territories, on the contrary, they built more and more illegal settlements and imposed harsher laws regarding day to day life in the territories. So if the Israelis won't leave when times are good and they won't leave when times are bad... when the hell are they going to leave?

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It is still the root cause of the entire problem.

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No the root of the problem is Palestinian terrorism

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Besides, why should the other Arab countries have to take them in? if I steal from you, is it Panzerjager's duty to make up your loss?

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Well if I stole it from someone else a.nd never even ha.d title to it is it really mine? Besides if I were in need Im sure Panzer would gladly lend me a hand

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The fundemental reason for everything going on between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that the Israelis are stealing Palestinian land and resources and brutalizing the people and won't get the hell out.....

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No once more the reason is Palestinian terrorism. Did the Israelis one day just decide that they would march in and start brutalizing Palestinians for no reason. Are they even more barbaric than the Palestinians? I dont think so. According to thinking like that we brutalized the Japanese and the Germans after WW2. There was a war and the Palestinian side lost. The Israelis are the winners. Its a fact that in war the winners make the terms not the losers. S.top giving these people hope. You are and people like you are directly responsibe for causing the deathsd of people on both sides. Until the Palestinains and all terrorists rea.lise tha.t the world wont put up with their shite they will continue their barbaric practices. Yes I hold YOU responsible. The Israelis have control of their government and people. If they make an agreement their government is capable of upholding it. The Palestinans cant do the same. Until they take control of themselves and take responsibility for their a.ctions theres nothing anyone else can do to help them.

Gawain, both sides are at fault. The Isreali government for acting horribley, and certaint Palestinians for acting equally as bad. And the point is the people, not the leadership of the people. The people need help, not whoever is in charge of them.

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Gawain, both sides are at fault.

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I never said different.

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And the point is the people, not the leadership of the people.

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Thats what I said . Until the Palestinian people get decent leadership their doomed.

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The people need help, not whoever is in charge of them.

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How do we help them. Theve already been sent more aid than any other nation per capita. God helps those who help themselves. They need to get a grip on themselves. They have to get over the attitube that Beruit has of the Jews stole my land and realise if they want their country the terror has to stop. That is the only way this will ever work. All the rest is just hot air and will get them no where.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Wow there are some ungrateful people in here. If I supported a group of downtrodden people and Bush sent them 50 million I would at least restrain myself. But no, were still bad, hes still evil, blah blah blah.. You wonder why we arent as giving to people, its because they take our money with no problems but then spin things to where we are still the bad guys.

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Well I dipped my toes in the waters of the Israel/Palestine argument a little bit in this thread, but will do so no more.

I have to say that I agree with Panzer here. The fact that there are those who have still managed to find a way to criticize the U.S. for trying to reach out by giving $50 million to a group of people who at best are indifferent to America and her interests and at worst harbor a strong hatred for everything America stands for, shows me that some people simply don't have it in their souls to ever admit that the U.S. might have done a good thing.

As I said before $50 million isn't going to solve a whole lot of problems, but it's a good start.

When someone pledges a certaint amount, it often falls short, no? Or am I mistaken?

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How do we help them. Theve already been sent more aid than any other nation per capita. God helps those who help themselves. They need to get a grip on themselves. They have to get over the attitube that Beruit has of the Jews stole my land and realise if they want their country the terror has to stop. That is the only way this will ever work. All the rest is just hot air and will get them no where.

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Hmm. Well we could help them by getting Isreal off their back a little. Though I do think that they need a good government that will be willing to work out something that is best for the people.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

They need to get a grip on themselves.

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Interesting. How does one get a grip on one's self while another has a steel gloved hand tightly around your throat?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

They have to get over the attitube that Beruit has of the Jews stole my land and realise if they want their country the terror has to stop.

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What country? It was carved up like a roast and fed to the predators sixty years ago courtesy of the UN. They only have the table scraps left. And the Israelis are even stealing those!

It can also be voiced that if the Israelis want the terror to stop, maybe they should stop with the torture and the imprisonments and the raids and the humilations and the theft of land and water and the draconian laws. Remember, Israel is occupying Palestine, not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

That is the only way this will ever work. All the rest is just hot air and will get them no where.

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Indeed. It's plain to see a lucid argument concerning basic human rights will go nowhere with the Israelis.

"Um, could you stop torturing and killing us please?"

"Oh shut up, that's just a lot of hot air."

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I have to say that I agree with Panzer here.

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I just saw a pig fly by my window.. ~:eek:

Must be The Floyd.