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Yup. Little momma-loving boy. Unworthy of the imperial throne. :mean:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonGod
I'm thinking about raising Andronicus' status high in your service (but NEVER co-emperor) to the point where he feels that Constantine has become the obstacle for him to exercise the power his loving elder brother gives him in gratitude of his loyal service. :evilgrin:
There's a thought. I was thinking of framing him for something...not necessarily treason, but something else which would cause him to lose a considerable deal of support...what's the Byzantine stance on male homosexuality?
Ahh...he's just a boy. Your idea is probably best.
number 2 is the way to go. Give your Varangians something to do. They'll get fat walking all day around the palace and all. Constantine will have to wait till you get back.... MAybe you could watch him secretly and as I said earlier watch his letters and bribe a few of his servants to watch him too...
What needs to be done to Constantine:
You need to kill him as soon as possible. Constantine is a huge threat to your reign, so the moment you come back, you need to kill Constantine and anyone in the Senate that supports Constantine. Since you have the support of your army, getting rid of Constantine can be done fairly easily.
What you need to do to the Turkish Raiders:
Own them. Also, note that this attack might be a scheme by Arslan to kill you, so watch out for poison dipped arrows. That and grab a shield and throw on some armor, before you turn into Julian the Apostate.
What you need to do with Arslan:
Crush him utterly, as soon as possible. In fact, send for your army ASAP. First though, try to get something out of him from the negotiations if you can.
What you need to do with the Turkish people:
Resettle them on the opposite corner of the empire, say in Italy. That'll give the Normans something to chew on. Let them practice their own religion as well. No reason to not let them.
What to do about Maria:
Cheat on her with Epiphania. She's much more your type than Maria is. If either of them act up later, blind them.
That's typically extreme of you, DA. ~D
I'd say two, because that money is important! Half the reason you came, even. And kicking some Turcomen (or Turks, whatever) around will give you another leverage at the bargaining table.
As far as Maria and Epiphania and the other princesses go, I wish we could have seen a few pics before a desicion was made... :wiseguy:
However Vykke had made a point that Michael was not an extreme person - quite a mild scholarly coward, in fact. Indeed, we've already stepped far from the historical pathetic Michael Ducas that occupied the throne of Constantinople for nothing, even though we haven't even succeeded in anything real yet. If you're controlling men like Alexius Comnenus or even Romanus Diogenes (soldiers, basically...) it would be logical to give such extreme choices for us "players" to choose.
And hey, Maria is (according to definition Vykke gave us) a sweet, shy girl. She'll probably be ineffective but it's better than having a whore (to the mods: is that considered a bad word here? If yes, please feel free to edit my post - and remove this comment to) as an empress or another Theodora.
To DA: I advocated entering war early on but for now it's not a wise thing to do. Others have chosen a more pacifist approach and it makes for interesting things now :)
To Vykke: is there any historical pics for those girls you featured in this thread? I know that most of the actual characters here are real, some have, in fact, gone on to become emperors. So I wonder if such is the case for the princesses.
Hehe, I thought you guys would appreciate a tactical decision, even a relatively quick-and-easy one like this.
Congratulations, DA. I have now started thinking of you as "Sulla Jr." ~D
I'm almost ashamed to admit it, but I made up all the princesses except Maria. Given the time I had available for research, the only German princess of the period that I could find was already married - to Solomon of Hungary, as I mentioned - and I couldn't find any references to Cuman princesses at all, much less ones from the right period (I do know they married into the nobility of neighboring peoples, but no one seems to have bothered writing down their names!). Maria is the girl Michael married IRL, though I've seen conflicting accounts on whether she was Alan or Georgian. For purposes of this thread, though, she's Alan. I don't have any pictures, but Michael Psellus described her as "pre-eminent in virtue and beauty." Take that how you will. ~;)
********
You immediately discard the Varangian's suggestion. You can't go around throwing away money to highwaymen like this. Instead, you yell at Alexius, "Make it happen!" He immediately begins organizing the maneuver with the lieutenants, with the group's servants and some of the soldiers helping haul the heavy baggage up the slope. It's a grueling ascent. With your top-notch and unburdened mount, it's an easy climb for you, but the men assigned to deal with the wagons and draft animals work up a heavy sweat, with Alexius egging them on. When the tagmata in front crest the hill, they shout and immediately begin exchanging arrow fire with an unseen enemy. As you reach the top yourself, you see that there is a screen of Turks already there, though they are swiftly withdrawing from your heavily-armored troops. A larger mass of Turks is at the foot of the hill, though when they see their cavalry screen flee, they stop advancing.
"Sire." Oksandr gets your attention and points back to the north, where that band of Turks, apparently under the command of a very impetuous leader, has begun climbing the hill after you.
"Let your men fire at will," you tell the lieutenant commanding the north side. You don't know his name, which bothers you a bit since you pride yourself on being able to learn and remember the names of your men, though you honestly can't fault yourself for not knowing the name of every lieutenant in the army. Regardless, his men release their shafts expertly, exchanging some more arrow fire with the Turks, who quickly realize that they've lost the tactical advantage because of their bungled pincer attack, and they can't win without it. Both bands retreat with minor losses. You consider pursuit, but catching them would be problematic at best, and you can't bear the delay. Maybe you can punish them later.
You move cautiously through the rest of the journey, though the Turcomen cause you no more trouble.
You come across the Euphrates late in the day on the twenty-ninth. Scouts you send ahead report that Arslan is already at the meeting place with a small force of men, though they say that the shallowness of the privies indicate that he hasn't been there very long. When you see their encampment yourself, you at first question whether your scouts have found the right group of Turks, because no pavilion seems to be large and opulent enough to house a leader as powerful as the Sultan. Still, as you draw closer you find that the largest tent - little bigger than what a tribal chieftain would own - is flying a flag depicting the white silhouette of a two-faced angel on a blue field, over which is superimposed a black bow and arrow. This is the standard of the Great Seljuk.
In an initial discussion between emissaries, it's made known that Arslan would rather meet with you tomorrow morning, once you've had time to rest. Taking him up on his offer, you and your men make camp a few hundred yards upriver from the Turkish contingent. This far north and west, the Euphrates is a fairly narrow and fast-moving river winding between gently rolling hills. Your servants set up your pavilion near its bank in time for you to recieve Paulus, your ambassador to Baghdad, who traveled here with the Sultan. You find him dressed up in baggy white clothes, more like an Arab than a Greek, though he still keeps his beard trimmed in the Greek style. He presents his opinion of the Sultan: "Your majesty, although I am, of course, not allowed to be present when he is making his major decisions, I believe that he is, at heart, an honorable man. Any agreement you reach with him will probably be followed."
"What of the attack on our procession?" you ask. At his look of confusion, you explain to him what happened a few days ago.
"Sire, I'm sure that was not his doing," Paulus states confidently. "If he had discreetly ordered such a thing, which I do not believe he would have, then his men would not have executed the attack in such a clumsy fashion. The Sultan has a number of capable men under his command, and would not send an incompetent to carry out such a duty."
"So you believe the Turcomen act without orders from their ruler, then?"
"That seems the most likely explanation to me, your majesty. I have gotten the impression from the court dealings in Baghdad that the Sultan does not have as strong a grip as he would like on those tribes that retain a nomadic lifestyle."
After digesting this for a moment, you ask him one more question: "What do you expect from him in our meeting?"
Paulus considers this. "Alsp Arslan is an honorific that means 'Valiant Lion.' On the battlefield, he is wily, but in diplomacy, he is more straightforward. He has no dislike for you, your majesty, though probably no love, either. He tends toward honesty and will expect the same in return."
After dismissing him and tucking yourself in, your mind starts playing with images of lions wearing turbans, leading to peculiar dreams when sleep finally takes you.
The meeting takes place in a tent loaned by yourself, halfway between the two camps. You discuss things through your emissaries, and decide that each party will be allowed to bring one translator and one bodyguard. In your case, this will be Paulus and Oksandr. Your servants, after pitching the tent, leave it to the two leaders and their accompanying retainers. Considering his reputation as a warrior, you're surprised to find that Alp Arslan is only of average height, though he has a regal bearing and his long Turkish moustaches lend him a certain Eastern majesty. He appears to be in his mid thirties. His bodyguard is a large Turk carrying a sabre; his translator appears to be Persian. Both look at him with obvious respect.
"Well met, Michael Ducas of Rome," he greets you through his translator, who speaks Greek with an archaic accent. "You have requested to speak with me, and I have come. What does my illustrious neighbor wish to discuss?"
It seems that it's largely up to you to set the tone for the meeting.
1. Start off with some polite conversation. Try to impress him with your good manners and a discrete display of your learning before you start discussing the important things.
2. Try to get to know him personally. Tell him a bit about yourself and try to get him to return the favor. Try to get on friendly terms with him. Maybe you can establish a rapport.
3. Present the issue at hand: Turcoman immigration. Small talk would only waste time and might irritate him.
4. Tell him about the attack made on your way here, and ask that he apologize on behalf of his countrymen. He should take responsibility for their actions, and maybe you can guilt him into giving you favorable terms.
(If I might be so bold Vykke, I would like to say I love your style of writing. You do not dumb down what you mean, and I think you have a gift for setting the mood by describing the surroundings and personages you describe. Well done!)
Back to the matter at hand... I think the list version will work the best for me here.
1. He is a Turk afterall, but he is scarcely from the steppes. It is the custom amongst Arabs (has been for centuries, now and back then) to start with polite conversation first. But, I believe this is the way to go. You do have time to waste afterall (how long can this possibly take? maybe half a hour?). Growing up in a 'civilized' court (compared to what his recent ancestors had I am sure) would have given him an appreciation for learning and polite conversation, even if he has no love for it. He also started out very formally, so I believe that would lead him to expect some 'fluffy conversation' to start with as well.
2. Great idea! But too darned early! A personal rapport with this man would do wonders for both empires, and would cause every other empire and petty-princedom in the region to quake. You are Emperor of a body that has been around for thousands of year. Everyone knows this. Alp is Sultan of a vibrant and powerful nation himself. I think a personal rapport is a dream... but perhaps not too unreasonable?
3. If he wants to get right to buisness (as this topic implies you do first), I believe that he will take it down this path ASAP (well... as soon as polite in his own mind I am sure). He is a soldier, but he is also a statesman. He has to know why you are here, and I believe he will get to it when he is fully ready.
4. NO! Bad Manuel! Bad! Don't go around trying to force a soldier to do something. That doesn't work well for anyone. Maybe he did order it, maybe not, but if he did, I am sure he will be shamed by its failure, and would not like you to rub it in his face. Guilt him? HA! That doesn't work with me, so I can only imagine how that would work for a man with more steel in his spine than I have.
I pick 1. Nice, easy way to begin what could be a crucial conversation. You command an Empire... but he has been around longer (if not by much...) at the helm of his own state. Let seniority have its due. There is no need to be servile or obseqious, but don't be rude, regardless.
And Vykke, I am very interested in how you describe a conversation between a couple of heads (literally!) of state. This should be interesting. I am excited.
Azi
As much as option number 2 seems like it could have great potential, I think option 3 is the way to go. It is the most forthcoming. After some kind of a resolution is found, I would then proceed with number 2. I would try to boil the whole thing down as a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation - I'm sure he has issues aplenty with his unruly chieftains as well.
As for details, I think a compromise coupled with a decree that any more attacks upon Imperial soil be both a declaration of war on the Byzantines and autonomy from the rest of the Sultanate. This would wash the Sultan's hands of any problems arising when Imperial troops are sent to crush the offending tribe.
As for the refugees...well, in a perfect world, I'd promise them fertile lands in Sicily - that's where I think we should go to war. Peace on the home front will make this possible.
To recap, then, action number 3. If possible, during or after the conversation, number 2 would be a wonderful bonus.
Oh, and if things go well, give his ambassador at Constantinople a nicer suite.
I don't see why 1 and 3 can't go together; basically, general politeness and relevant smalltalk. Politeness is a must, but the Sultan has also made it clear in his opening statement that he's there for business. If a combination isn't possible I'd go for 3, but definitely in a polite way.
2 sounds great, but both leaders need to know they can trust and respect each other before such things are possible, probably particularly in the case of the Sultan. 4 is a bad move.
And slightly OT, this is an excellent story Vykke! Lots of interesting choices, and a well written account which evokes the feel of the times.
Yes, Vykke, who are you? What do you do? You are great at setting the mood. I'm more into the technical aspects of my writings, and always end up in the usual sinkhole of too many facts and too much elaboration, and too little personality.
Anyway, for a professional coutier as Michael it should prove no problem to combine 1 and 3, basically smalltalking his way into the issue before Arslan knowns it. In any case Azi argues correctly that Arslan himself would soon force the issue should he wish to have a blunt discussion. But at the same time he knows the conventions and traditions for such meetings, and if he forces his way ahead he might get a bad rep, something he is certainly not looking for (again we are back at the minoritycomplex). I believe he will follow Michael's courtly talk for a while.
So #1!!!!
I have my hunches that Vykke is a DM of some kind.
DM???Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonGod
DM = Dungeon Master. For example, the controller of a game of Dungeons and Dragons. That is my standard interpretation anyway.
Not that I play D&D... of course... ahem... moving on... :embarassed:
Combining 1 & 3 would be great, but I only wanted to pick one of the list that Vykke gave us. And to be honest... I have no idea how you would respond by including small talk (say about the weather) and the Turcoman harrassment.
"My dear Sultan, what a pleasure to meet you. Isn't it nice that it is not raining Turoman marauders today?"
Now THAT is a great way to start a conversation... rather similar to starting a conversation with a woman:
"It sure is sunny out here today. Mind if I take shade under your boobies?"
At least no one has said 4. Yet....
Azi
Na, for me must be, "greetings, honourable Sultan, it is an honour of both nations that we have agreed to meet with each other today (blah blah blah) Hmm? What's that? About my travels? Well, it is a fine journey indeed apart from a few Turkish marauders along the way..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
~D
Anyway, back to business. As others have said, the combination of 1 and 3 would be the way to go. Though if you can go in specifics, I'd suggest not to let Michael spend too much time small-talking and rather go on business in a more-or-less honest (only try to lie once we know of the measure of Alp Arslan's intelligence in diplomacy) and courteous manner once the initial "greetings, how do you do?" part and a few small talks are finished (occasionally praise him or act in a courteous behavior during the negotiation would be better). Indeed, if the meeting turns out to be agreeable then start to build a rapport with him, as in choice 2. Suggest something like how the alliance would enhance both nation's central authority (it's Alp Arslan's only clear weakness, and he would appreciate Byzantine support) and allow for both empires to strengthen.
However, if only one choice is available, then I'll go with choice 3, courteously.
Edit: Oh, and about Maria, it seems we made the right choice - choosing a virtuous and beautiful girl (according to Psellus, who may as well has no taste in women whatsoever ~;) ) and a real one at that. Indeed, there is nothing to apologize on Vykke's part, ancient history is often lacking when it comes to records of women - even royal ones.
Oh, come on. Own up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
Go with 1. It doesnt compromise you to anything. Noone can be mad at you for being polite...
No problem with going with 3 in a reasonably courteous fashion, that's really what I had in mind.
If only sarcasm was an effective persuasion tool. Diplomacy would be heaps of fun! ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
Who am I? Just some guy from Dallas who happens to like history. Similar deal to most people here, I'd bet. I'm a veterinary technician now, though I don't really consider it my life's calling or anything. In this thread, I'm still trying to figure out the right mix of strict historical correctness vs. literary detail. A lot of the mood-enhancing details I throw out are just educated (or uneducated) guesses on my part. (Is the Euphrates really narrower and faster-moving in northwest Syria? Beats me, but it seems likely, that's the way rivers usually are in hillier terrain... etc.) Sooner or later I'm sure I'll produce one that's flat-out wrong and someone will catch me on it. ~;)
I've dabbled in tabletop RPGs, even DMed a few times, though I never joined a regular gaming group.
In case any of you are confused about this, the word "Turcoman" can mean several things, but in this historical context, the word refers to Turks who came with the Seljuks in their invasion of the middle east, but did not settle down as aristocracy like their cousins and retained a tribal nomadic lifestyle semi-independent from the Seljuk state. I don't know if they're related to the people of modern Turkmenistan, but it doesn't seem impossible.
Anyway, on with the thread!
**********
Thinking on what Paulus told you, you decide that he's probably the type who'd rather get to the point of things. You're not too averse to the idea yourself. Of course, at least a little bit of diplomatic fluff is necessary.
"Alp Arslan of the Great Seljuk Empire, I greet you and welcome you to Roman soil. I'm afraid my hospitality is not fit for a guest of your stature, but we must make do with what is available." After the Sultan indicates that the accomodations are adequate, you continue. "As I'm sure you suspect, I asked you here to discuss matters of importance between our two thrones, and I hope you won't feel me too straightforward if I jump to it straight away. The matter weighs heavily on my mind, which will be greatly eased once we have worked out a solution together."
The Sultan nods. "Then by all means, I shall see what I can do to put your mind at rest." He doesn't appear put off by the haste.
"My empire has, in recent years, seen large numbers of your steppe-cousins crossing over into her eastern provinces. In Cappadocia and Cilicia, in particular, the numbers have been large. While, in a perfect world, we would welcome the Turcoman, the actual situation there is difficult. The immigrants need food and land, which are not in supply plentiful enough to suit their needs. As the these immigrants are coming from our border with your nation, and are therefore your subjects, I would ask that you dissuade them from their zeal to inhabit Roman land."
Alp Arslan waits for several long moments before replying, and at first you think that Paulus didn't translate properly and he didn't understand you. When he speaks, though, you realize that he was just choosing his words carefully. "Your majesty," he says, "I am sorry for the trouble my kinsmen have caused you. However, you must understand that we are an expansionist people. We need new lands to explore and inhabit. If any other civilization can understand that necessity, it must be you, our Roman neighbors, who were driven to conquer half of the world."
A bit disturbed by this polite bluntness, you think quickly. "We lead two great nations. We have much we can offer each other. Surely we can work out an solution that will benefit both parties."
"Though it pains me to say so," replies the Sultan, after another pause for interpretation and thought, "the Turcomen are an unruly subset of my people, who do not always listen to the advice of their betters. Land on which to make new homes is the commodity they desire above all, and that need must be met somewhere. Your provinces of Cappadocia, Cilicia, and Syria have been in Muslim possession before, and indeed some still have sizeable populations of them. My suggestion is that you cede these provinces to my authority. With this land to give the Turcoman chiefs, I will be able to keep them content. Should any of them desire to continue west to take more than their fair share, I will gladly lend the assistance of my army to stop those grasping ingrates from troubling your Empire further. Furthermore, I would consider such a gesture to be an indication of trust, and would be pleased to sign a treaty of friendship formalizing the peaceful relations between our two Empires."
Now it's your turn to spend some time thinking about this. Quite a few things come to mind.
1. Accept the terms. You'd bring peace to your eastern border, a powerful ally, and a stop to the immigration in one stroke of the pen. The court currently tends toward pacifism, so they probably wouldn't be so bothered by it if you spin it as a peace initiative.
2. He's asking too much. Refuse to accept those terms, instead offering a similar agreement for a smaller exchange of land. You might not be able to get that alliance out of a less favorable deal, though.
a. Offer him Syria only. This includes Antioch.
b. Offer him Cappadocia and Syria, but keep Cilicia in the Empire.
c. Offer him Syria and Cilicia, but refuse to give up Cappadocia.
3. You can live with giving up that territory, but not to an empire as powerful and potentially dangerous as the Seljuks. Offer to create a petty state on your border encompassing some of these lands. The Turcoman tribes will rule it themselves. This frees you both from their bothersome presence.
4. Giving up land is out of the question. His current offer is moot, but maybe you can keep talking to him and see if he seems receptive to any alternatives. Maybe you can fall back on the bribe or threats that you were originally considering.
5. Just suggesting that you give Roman territory to him is insulting. There is no further need to continue speaking with this arrogant louse.
Hmm... tough one. How about recruiting in those areas? Would it trouble your economy much? What is worse (economically) to fight the marauders or give up the land?
Provisionally I would go with 1, but try to squeeze as much out of it as possible. Say half of the first year's taxes from those areas, trade rights with all Turkish territories, and support against the normans in Sicily.
See, personally I think the empire should look towards Europe more than towards Asia, but on the other hand that is a lot of territory he is demanding.
So I might change my decision if others think of better ways of dealing with it.
Maybe go with number 4 and see what can we pullout...
Actually, what do we know about the turkish army?
It is indeed a tough one... Had it been anybody but Alp Arslan I would never have considered giving up land, but this is a most problematic situation. It is not likely that he would break his agreement with you, but what about the future? His successors might not hold the agreement to a similar standard.
Cappadocia is rather important for your horsebreeding and Syria is important in tradeterms (Antioch is a most important city for you).
The Seljuks would be greatly strengthened by his terms. So #1 is out, the same goes for #2 as it is in effect a bad compromise, you lose important land and get nothing solid in it's stead.
#3 Is to some extent a good compromise, but you will not get much goodwill for abandoning the Greeks and christians there to the more uncivilized Turcomans. Also that state is bound to end up as a point of contention, again with you weakened (though the Seljuks not strengthened). Lastly, the Turcomans are likely to feel some kinship with the Seljuk state and it is not unlikely that they will join in an alliance at some point.
I don't like that at all...
#4 This one sound good. You play for time and info, so as to see what else can be done. Also this way you can use your superior diplomatic skills and your knowledge of history *cough-thefallofthewesternempire-cough*.
#5 Ehhh... No. Lets just go home and disband the army, it is cheaper and takes less time and blood, but the result is the same. This would lead to war sooner or later, sooner I think. And with the army partly away in Bulgaria and not up to specs this is a most unfortunate turn of events.
So I go with #4.
Sure, more info is reasonable.
About the options: Picking #2 doesn't necessarily mean you won't get an alliance, but it's not guaranteed. The terms will depend on the capacity of your army to intimidate him, whether he's bluffing and is really willing to accept less, Michael's diplomatic ability... etc. If you pick #4 and can't find another acceptable deal, he'll probably let you backtrack and accept his proposal, though it might cost you some face.
I assumed that if you wanted to bargain with him, it would be to reduce the land you're handing over, but it's reasonable to try to get other concessions from him instead. Unless you change your mind in your reply to this post, I'll consider that a "suggestion" from you, SwordsMaster.
You're not completely sure about the Sultan's army, but you think it numbers about 40,000. Unlike your empire, however, his still has significant recruiting power among the nobility, etc. (while your finances are pretty much tapped out). You roughly guess that he might be able to recruit another 20,000 in case of war, though he may have resources you're not aware of, in which case the number would be higher. Light infantry and cavalry predominate, though there's a strong core of heavier cavalry types as well. The Seljuk army gave a very good showing of itself against your father's troops in Armenia and Cappadocia.
About the provinces in question: You only own about 1/3 of Syria (the Seljuks already have the rest), though you still have Antioch, which, as Kraxis mentioned, is quite wealthy and a hub of trade between the east and west. Though there's some Greek-speaking people there, the population of Syria is mostly Arab. Consequently, it isn't considered an important recruiting area. Cilicia is populated mostly by Armenians at this point in history, with some Muslims still around too. It's supplied many troops for Imperial armies in the past, though some question the loyalty of the Armenian people. Some of it is quite agriculturally fertile, though not as important as western Anatolia. Cappadocia is populated by a combination of Greek and Armenian-speaking peoples (and now it has some Turcomen, too). Horse and cattle breeding predominate, though there's some farming too. Cappadocia is not particularly wealthy. It has supplied the horses for your cavalry for many years, though these days most of your cavalry is mercenary anyway.
As for whether it's more economically draining to give up the provinces or fight the marauders, well, these guys didn't have reams of statistical data at their fingertips like we do now. You'll have to try to figure that one out yourself. ~:)
You two can change your choices if you like.
Oh, another thing: In these days, when an agreement is made it typically applies only to the two leaders who actually signed it. There are very few multigenerational treaties. So if Arslan dies, then any treaty would be forfeit unless his successor chose to sign an extension of it with you. That's just how these things worked back then.
Would anyone be bothered by me posting a map of the Empire at this point so we know what the heck each province entails? I have Treadgold's History of the Byzantine State and society book at home, and I can shoot one of the maps and post it here. (I am checking online for a competant map right now too.) That way everyone will know what Syria, Cilicia, Cappadocia entails. For that matter, the rest of the empire would probably help too...
By the way, my first response is "screw you hippie"... but I think Eric Cartman is a thousand years later...
I require more thought on this (along with a map to delinate just how much territory Alp is asking).
Azi
Our own army is about 40k strong IIRC? of mostly outdated units. And no cash to pay them with.
option 4
This is the least I would settle for:
I would like to introduce a small modification then: the cash I brought over plus Siria in exchange for an alliance and a firm policy against the marauders.
Otherwise, Siria plus Cilicia for all the above and the support of his army in Sicily against the normans.
Your troops are actually about 75k strong (counting the ones in Bulgaria now). But a lot of those are mercenaries of dubious reliability, and the rest have substandard equipment. Also, deploying them all to the east would be risky, with the Pechenegs, Cumans, Uzes, Hungarians, and Normans all eager to take a bite out of your territory.
Here's a pretty decent map , showing the thematic structure of the Empire, though it's almost a century out of date. A lot happened during that time.
Most importantly, the Bulgar Khanate was subjugated and annexed into the Empire. All those petty emirates and the caliphate east of the Empire have all been subjugated by the Seljuks (or, in the case of Armenia, by the Empire, then by the Seljuks). I think the Theme of Mesopotamia was lost during the wars, too. The Alans are larger and stronger than the map shows, and the Khazars weaker. The Cumans have moved a lot farther west, pushing the Uzes and Pechenegs ahead of them. Now they're both mostly concentrated just north of the Danube. The Empire has lost most of its holdings in Italy to the upstart Normans, except for Bari and some surrounding territory in southeast Italy, and Palermo, the capital of Sicily.
If you have a map more suited to the period, Azi, then by all means, upload it. :)
By the way, when the characters were discussing "Cappadocia," they were talking about the historical region of Cappadocia, which is something larger than the theme bearing its name in Michael's time. It extends east to the border, roughly.
Here's another one , even more out of date, though it shows the major cities.
Ah you mean the Theme of Cappadocia and the Theme of Lycandos? I was hoping to possibly buy Arslan off with it. It seems insignificant yet important at tyhe same time.
I hopes everyone has big screens!
But these are the only relevant maps I was able to find in my book. I thought I had some that had the emprire and its probable (possible?) thematic boundaries at the end of 1070... but no luck.
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a...g/DSC00201.jpg
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a...g/DSC00201.jpg
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a...g/DSC00199.jpg
https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a...g/DSC00199.jpg
I hope these help.
Azi
There is no point in giving in to the Turks - the empire is far from being down. Do not be intimidated, continue talking, as in choice 4. Make it clear to Alp Arslan that you want his friendship and cooperation, but not at the cost of Roman prestige, or a single parcel of land. If it was after Manzikert it would be another situation but, for now, you have the manpower for a war. Be courteous, though. No need for aggressive words.
Choices 1,2 and 3 will be a major military setback. Antioch is a key city - an equivalent of Chang'an of the Shu-Wei war of the Three Kingdoms - Cilicia, too, is wealthy, and holds key passes between Anatolia and the Levant - Cappadocia is the empire's only area to actually raise a large amount of cavalry forces - even if parts given in the agreement are unimportant, what stops the Turks from taking the rest, and all Anatolia with it? Besides, who cares for a pacifist court of backstabbing cowards and conspiring selfish courtiers, when your true power (and main supporter) is the army, in which you will certainly lose much respect to surrender even before the war starts?
And we do have Alans on our side in case of war, remember Maria?
Though I quite regret when that Armenian (who supported Diogenes) was banished now; he could've been a living symbol (read: mascot) of Michael's "benevolence" in which he could rally Armenians to join him. :embarassed:
Choice 5 is too blunt. Michael is a mild person, he, I presume, does not have to intimidating factor of men like, presumably, Barbarossa when it comes to influencing diplomacy by force of will.
Edit: Oh, and subtly point out that you know his weakness: that his authority is far from complete over the Turks. Men tend to be more careful if they realize others know their dick isn't quite as large as it's boasted to be. In fact, equally subtly offer Roman aid in the matter, probably Alp Arslan woul reconsider the value of Constantinople's friendship. Indeed, if war becomes inevitable, support the enemies of the Sultan to distract and weakens him. The provinces of Anatolia are more or less Roman in loyalty and will raise their arms to support Michael against the hated Turks, should he call for, even if they're not strong enough to take on the likes of the Turkish horde on their own.
Nicely done Vykke. I did check online, but I did not have any luck. I am glad you did. Now then, assuming I can use my first map, with the updated thematic boundaries and assuming they are not too far wrong (the map shows 1025, but I believe the Byzantines did not start losing land control until after Manzikert).
If I use my first map, and assume that Alp is proposing Manuel grant him everything east of the line of: Tarsus, Podandus, Cappadocia, and then the thick grey line running NE... that is too steep to me.
No giving territory away for so little, not after the struggles Nicephoras Phocas and John Tzimisces (and their generals) had in taking the land for the Empire a hundred years before. Cappadocia, hiding behind the Tarsus-Antitarsus mountain line had been the frontier for the Empire for centuries. However, Tarsus controls the passes through the southern part of the Tarsus frontier, and with the Armenians, it is useful for its soldiers. And of course, there is Antioch. Probably the #3 city in the Empire right now, at least in terms of population (behind Constantinople and Thessalonika). Antioch is a tough nut to crack (as the Crusaders would find out), and would make a fine southern anchor in case of a major war with either the Fatmids or Seljuks (not that they like each other anyway).
Alp wants lots of giving here. If he really wants a place for his brethren to live... how about his own vast empire? He has Iraq, Iran, the rest of Syria already. The smallest area that would be important enough for Alp has to be the rest of Syria, with Antioch. However, there is not enough room for all his tribes. And of course, who is to say they won't multiply like rabbits and then need more room? What's next? Anatolia? HA! The last thing you need for Anatolia and the rest of Asia Minor is to have Turks with a homeland inside your natural fences.
If he does not like anything from #4, just land, then I think 2a would be the best, but get an Alliance out of him too. Very wealthy city, strong land, but... maybe you could sweeten the deal for it with something else.
I also wonder at the spin back from because of you less than secure throne. I wonder how much your nobles would like #1 or most of #2. They helped to fight for that land, and many of them probably have land of their own out there in the Wild Wild East (not that they really care... until you give it away).
I say #4 is the best. Despite what I have said above, I do not thinking giving up land is out of the question... I just wonder how much can be given to get him to quash what I view as his internal problem.
Azi
He's just haggling. Your opening big is always more than you really want. He can afford to be taken down a few notches, at least. Option 4.
I'm confident that war with the Turks may wind up in our favour, especially with a few well-placed bribes for the chiefs. The Alans, I'm sure, would enjoy getting some Turkish land. We won't need to pull our forces from other regions.
"I offered him double his estates in Scotland and lands in England. Lochlan turned...for much less."
Option 4 it is.
By the way...I suggest growing a beard. No one thinks you mean business unless you have a beard.
I agree. A red one, too, if you can. And make it look majestic - half trimmed, half rugged. The soldiers like that. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonGod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
He's not asking for quite that much - by your map, Cappadocia, Podantus, Tarsus, and everything east of Podantus and Tarsus. The concessions wouldn't include the northeastern territories east of the thick gray line. Regardless, it's been pretty much settled in favor of #4. On the matter of political spin, at this point in time most nobles are pretty distant from military affairs (the closest most get are some "units" calling themselves Tagmata, that are really social clubs for young nobles who want to play soldier). Some of the nobles may own land in the east, but they'd be private holdings with no connection to their noble status. Later, they were given real lands of their own, but at this point in time, they mostly just sit in Constantinople. Many participate in the senate or bureaucracy, others do pretty much nothing. Obviously, a few families (notably Comnenus and Botaniates) are exceptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
On the beard matter - Michael probably already has one. Certainly he did by the time these coins were minted. He's a Byzantine emperor, it's pretty much expected of him. ~;) I don't know what color his beard is, but since he's Greek, it's probably brown or black.
*******
You consider handing over territory - the prospect of an alliance is attractive - but it just doesn't seem to be worth it to you. Syria and Cilicia are too wealthy to give up so easily, and Cappadocia has, if nothing else, strategic importance because of its location in the middle of your Asian lands. You choose to look for more acceptable alternatives.
"As you have pointed out, gracious Sultan, I am Roman," you say, "and while I would appreciate your friendship, I cannot bear to part with the territory my forebears fought so long and hard to take and retain. There must be other ways to solve our problems to our mutual satisfaction. Perhaps your Turcoman kin can be encouraged to settle elsewhere? There is land aplenty in many regions of the world. Even within your own lands, there may be opportunity for them to live peacefully." Paulus tries to imitate your inflection in his translation. It's strange to hear your speech patterns imperfectly mimicked in the Turkish language, which sounds harsh to your ears. "The coffers of my Empire are, of course, available to help you reform a troublesome people. With the help of Imperial coin, perhaps you can encourage the Turcomen to adopt a lifestyle more suitable to national harmony."
"I regret to say that if I keep the welfare of my other subjects in mind, there is little place for them in my own realm," the Sultan replies. "The warrior spirit burns strongly in them, and while this is admirable, it makes them difficult neighbors for my other subjects." The two of you study each other for a few moments more, then suddenly he leans toward you intently. "However, as you've suggested, there is another land open to them. It is rich and expansive, and ruled by corrupt schismatics who do not recognize the true way of Allah. However, their strength is formidable. If you are not willing to donate land for my brethren, perhaps you can help us take it from those who do not deserve it."
"You speak of Egypt," you realize.
"Indeed. With your help I can reclaim it for the true Caliph. Especially, I would need the help of your navy to stop trade with the west, thus weakening them. Some land forces would be exceedingly helpful as well. With our combined might, we could topple the Fatimids and bring land to my nomads and glory to ourselves."
A war with Egypt wasn't really what you had in mind, but it's worth hearing him out. "What do you have in mind, from my end? You must remember that my soldiers and ships are needed in many provinces to protect our borders."
"Of course. As I stand the most to gain from the conflict, the bulk of the burden should be mine as well. I ask for the commitment of as many naval ships as you can spare, as well as a good portion of soldiers, though not enough to put your borders in jeapordy. Perhaps a couple tens of thousands of men, led by a capable commander, would suffice. I would like to bring them with me in the offense, rather than asking them to mount their own campaign. As I will be on the scene, and therefore better able to use them to best effect, they would be under my local command, but naturally, your word would be final in any matter regarding their orders."
You again have much to consider, and take your time. As the two of you have been speaking, you've come up with two other ideas besides what Alp Arslan is offering.
1. Accept this proposal. The Imperial navy is not as strong as it once was, but may be up to the challenge, especially if you can get Venice, an Imperial protectorate, to assist you. You could use a strong ally, and this way you wouldn't have to give up themes.
2. Decline to get your army involved in large numbers. You need them here, not in Egypt. Hopefully naval involvement will be enough to suit the Sultan.
3. Go further than what he's proposed. Offer to get involved in the war directly, commanding your own army and with the Empire's full participation, in exchange for a cut of the spoils. The Holy Land is under Fatimid control, and would be an enormous prize, if you can convince the Sultan to let you have it.
4. The first of your ideas: Offer him the gold again, but this time explain to him your plan. The money would be spent bribing the receptive Turcoman leaders to enter the Sultan's service in a more professional sense, as regular army units. He could create a specific corps for the Turcomen, and emphasize the honor associated with it. Those that are uninterested could be bribed to return to Turkestan or to head to Arabia, India, or other lands. Those that are receptive to neither approach could be driven away or subdued by force, if necessary, once most of their brethren are out of the way. This might require repeated payments from the Empire until the issue is resolved.
5. The second of your ideas: Offer to destroy the Turcomen for him. He will discretely rally as many of them as he can at the border between your empires for a "surprise attack," and then, through secret correspondences, provide your army the information it needs to crush them. He will then insist publicly that he had nothing to do with the disastrous "raid." You will back him up, claiming that there was no sign that the Sultan was involved, and that there is no need for continued fighting.
A combination of 1 and 4. Michael should use that money to recruit the turkomen in a special corps and then place them under a capable commander and send them to Egypt with Arslan. As of your navy, give him a few ships and let the Venetians help him too, and of course impeding egyptian trade, will put more money in your own pockets....
And tell Arslan that you will help him in the war.
Number 1, although I'm almost tempted to go with nr.3 for some extra dangers.. ~:)
A Question (request for more information) to Vykke: Is the Holy land currently wealthy? What is its condition under the Fatimids? Is it densely populated or sparsely so? What would you stand to gain in Palestine? All or part of them?
I am greedy. :devil:
As far as I know the Fatimids are not too strong at the moment, and should prove a rather easy conquest between you.
I'm just beginning to get cold feet about my previous speeches about Arslan's 'honour'. He was never pushed this far in reality and most often had most to gain from the honourable choice. He could do a backstab...
I'm inclined to look for a solution where the Turcomans are used directly in the war. "Here is your promised land, take it... We will in fact pay you to take it."
So yeah, 1 and 4. But if push comes to shove, 1. 3 does sound rather tempting too... And in such a case it is unlikely that Arslan can do a backstab (you are there with a big army). But my choise stands.
I vote number 1. This is where we scratch his back. He'll scratch ours when the time comes to crush the Normans. At least, that would be optimal.
Ha! Alp Arslan drives a hard bargain. But if he wants Egypt to prevent the annexation of Roman lands then Egypt it shall be.
Though 1 and 4 seems popular I'd much prefer 1 and 3. The Empire's coffer is not huge - it's rather, in fact, around the bottom. The Turkomen could continue to plague the Imperial financial situation this way for quite some time. And what guarantee do we have that Alp Arslan won't betray the Empire after he has Egypt, but respect for you he currently seems to lack?
You have to engage in the war yourself. Prove your strength, and claim the Holy Land (I had no choice but to presume that the Levant is probably currently quite prosperous). It is likely that the fact that Christians again rule Jerusalem would help in your reputation at home. The uneducated masses are pious Christians, and an emperor who reclaims the so-called "holy city" for "God's empire" could be very popular, and that would probably even help the relationship with the West (or provoke envy?).
I approve 1 and 3. Oh, and do let the Sultan gather his Turks back for the Egyptian conquest. And if my choice is chosen, I suggest letting the Turks drives the war forward for a while before fully engaging to convince the Fatimids that we are less of a threat, and therefore would not fight us full force while everything they have are occupied with the Turks.
Ha I knew it! I knew Vykke had done his homework and would get to the Fatmids eventually. Now then... what to do about them?
To be honest, the idea of recovering the Holy Land (no crusades! [good or bad?]) is interesting... but I would much rather have a weak Fatmid empire to help counter the very strong Seljuks, then a vastly stronger Seljuk empire to deal with, and no more Fatmids. Sure, maybe the Fatmids are weak... but still, they are very wealthy (the Nile will do that for you). But I hate the idea of a Seljuk empire combining the wealth of Egypt and the strength of the Seljuks (as they stand under Alp). I must protest helping Alp with any war against the Fatmids.
So now what? I don't want to give him land (and nor, I suppose, did he expect it), but I also don't want to help him with his 'adventure'. How can I get his help to stop the raiders?
1. No, already elaborated why.
2. See 1 above.
3. ...
4. I don't think forming a Jihading (think Crusading) order with the undisciplined Turcoman tribes would work.... and who is to keep them from going after those outside the house of Islam? Not Alp!
5. THIS could be fun. But I don't trust Alp any farther than I can throw him. Who is to say that won't just make a Manzikert with Manuel at the helm?
6. So now what? I don't like anything that has come up. To be frank, what I would like to do is take a lunch break, to our separate camps, and discuss with my advisors what to do.
7. If no break (afterall, we have not been talking very long at all), I say 1 (tens of thousands? Try maybe 10,000) and really try to get Venice to help out. All you need is Venice to get mad at your right now for trying to shut down one of their buddies (I figure trade works in every direction to be honest, and merchants really don't like war).
8. This one is more parenthetical, but Vykke, who do you have owning Cyprus right now? I believe the Empire continued to own Cyprus for a very long time... but if I am wrong and the Fatmids own it, then I suggest Manuel hit that. Hard. Talk about a valuable province. Yeah! Naval base, trade... sweet! And get rid of any pirates.
Wow... so I want: 6 then 8 (if I am right), then 7 if possible.
Thanks for reading this... I know it was a pain, but the Seljuks worry me. The Ottomans were one of those Turcoman tribes afterall.
Azi
Hmm...your worries are legitimate, Azi. May be it's time for the *gasp* crusades? ~D
Perhaps we can take the Holy Land (my way... ~;) ) then direct the crusades to Damietta in Egypt. Or let them cross Palestine to Baghdad.
Just kidding.
However I'd like to really, really know the conditions of the Holy Land right now. It means everything between decisions 4 or 3. If it is rich (is Phoenicia still rich?), then take it by all means. The wealth gained will allow for more recruitments, diplomatic flexibility, and the rearming process of the Imperial army, which will probably help our emperor Michael Ducas squash the Turks alright.
If it's a poor, devastated, potentially rebellious province, then it's not really worth it...
Is there, by any chance, a choice to preserve the treasury while militarily support the Turks so we can just bribe the Turkish tribes (and call out the Alans) and stab Alp Arslan in the back when he was occupied in Egypt? :evilgrin:
And to think I was actually considering making strong allies out of the Seljuks...Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
The Turcomen are already Seljuk bannermen, after a fashion, albeit barbaric and undisciplined ones. You can be sure that even without a major attempt being made to turn them into a regular cavalry corps, Alp Arslan would call on them to help take the land they've been promised.
Cyprus is currently under Byzantine rule, and is a major thematic supplier of ships.
Antiochus: Right now you're just making the bargain. Whether or not you'll keep it is a matter for later decisions.
Though Palestine isn't as wealthy as, for instance, Antioch, it's far from poor. It has some cities of significant size (Tyre, Jerusalem, Beisan, Acre, etc.) and a fair amount of trade. There's a lot of religious pilgrims who visit the area, and they contribute economically as well. How much of it you get, if any, will be determined in your negotiations with Arslan if you decide to go that route.
I don't like the sound of ten thousand marching with the Turks. Alp Arsaln could easily give the order for them to be massacred in their sleep. It would be best if you provided a slightly larger army of 15,000, but independant and it would land somehwere in Egypt to open up a second front. Get Alexandria and Jerusalem in the subsequent peace deal, and perhaps Acre and Tyre. With Acre, Alexandria and Tyre you could dangle these in front of the Venitians noses in excahnge for naval assistance. However, if and when the Fatimids do succumb, make sure that they aren't completely destroyed. They may prove valuable later.
Does anyone like my suggestion?
Well yes Henry, insofar as supporting Alp goes. But how do you propose to keep the Fatmids from collapsing completely if you have Alexandria and Alp has whatever he wants? I wonder if it would be possible to have a Seleucid vs Ptolemaic fight on our hands. Keep squabbling over the Holy land.. but no real inroads into either's heartland. Keep both fighting each other and the Empire peaceful and happy.
Thanks for the info Vykke. I thought as much, I just wanted to be sure.
Azi
I don't mind you guys debating all the nuances like this for as long as you like, but I just thought I'd remind you that only the first poster gets to make a suggestion other than the choices given. I think that if anyone could make one, we'd wind up spending days on each decision while everyone argued over what should be done.
Anyway, if I understand everyone correctly, Swordsmaster wants to both send troops and offer to help the Sultan reform the Turcoman warriors into a cohesive military unit. 1pain1duck supports 1, and Antiochus supports 1 or 3, rather than a combination of the two. I'll make a three-way run-off, including Swordsmaster's suggested combination.
So, the newly-renumbered options at the moment are:
#1: Agree to Arslan's proposal as it stands.
#2: Offer to spend money helping him turn the Turcomen into a disciplined military corps, as well as sending troops to help him win the war in Egypt.
#3: Offer to enter the war personally, and bargain for as much of the Levant as you can get in exchange.
3.)
Cuz war is cool.
2. I'd be very careful with the wording, though. I wouldn't want to offend him on behalf of the lifestyle of his countrymen.
Doh. I didn't know that I couldn't propose other things. Bad Azi :embarassed:
Humm... I think #3 will work fine. Get Michael out in the field. But lets try to keep him from getting killed.
Azi
3. Hehe. Thanks, Vykke, for summarizing things. :bow:
It's time for some action now, we've been out cold for a while since the heat of the Diogenes crisis died down.
Otherwise, Vykke is right: Michael is, after all, in a middle of a diplomatic negotiation. Realistically he (Michael) wouldn't have time to debate the pros and cons of the choices thoroughly. It would've been quite an impulse response. Impulse often means reckless; reckless means more violent that normal. ~D
If we go for 3 though, the turkomen problem remains as we won't have money to pay them off as we'd spend it on war. SEcondly it doesnt solve the Constantine problem and leaving him in Constantinople while we take off for Egypt is not the wisest choice....
Vykke: I suggested recruiting the turcomen Yourself as opposed to giving the sultan money for that. Why reinforce your enemy?
That is still my choice: 2. Don't give HIM the money. Just tell him you'll help.
Azi: No worries. I didn't mind, I just wanted to make sure you knew how it worked. ~:)
Swordsmaster: Oh, I see what you mean now. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I assume you're talking about the Turcomen who are already in your territory, right? How you deal with them will be the issue in another decision (this upcoming one, in fact), and doesn't have much to do with your negotiations with Arslan. If you're talking about the ones still in Seljuk territory (which is most of them), then I don't think it's really feasible for you to recruit them, since they're subjects of the Sultan. Those are the ones the choice was addressing, not the ones already in your territory. My fault, I should have been more clear on that.
I'll include your suggestion as one of the options in the next decision.
********
You consider this proposition and, finding it worthy, you are about to accept it, when you realize the golden opportunity that sits before you. Your predecessors have desired to reclaim the Holy Land for centuries. You may finally be able to do this, and with the help and blessing of Baghdad, no less! You quickly stifle your excitement before it betrays you and present your counter-proposal to Alp Arslan. "Your suggestion has much merit, Excellent Sultan. In fact, it is such a striking proposal that I believe we should take it a step further. I would like to participate fully and personally in the war. With the full might of both our empires directed toward Egypt, it cannot fail to swiftly fall. With such overwhelming force, we would suffer fewer losses and accomplish Roman and Turkish dominance of Asia that much faster." You realize after you've spoken that you probably should have said 'Turkish' first, but no matter.
The Sultan seems a bit taken aback by your proposal. "In return for a portion Fatimid territory, I presume?" You think he sounds slightly suspicious, but it's hard to tell through that barbaric language.
"Yes, Eminent Sultan. This way we both stand to gain equally from the endeavor. The close cooperation will foster greater goodwill between our people, and absorb less time and resources. Naturally, as the Levant is the only part of Fatimid territory that is contiguous with the land of my governance, I would like to put it under Roman law once it has been reclaimed by our armies. The rest of their sprawling lands would be freely yours."
This time, Arslan considers for quite a while before replying. "I'm sorry to say that I cannot let you have the entire Levant, your majesty. I know that Jerusalem is an exceedingly holy city for your people - it is for mine as well, in fact - and that it would bring much glory to your nation to possess it. However, once our mutual enemy is defeated, southern Palestine will be an important bridge between Egypt and the rest of my provinces. I could not let you take anything south of Mt. Carmel."
You press him a bit further on the issue - the Holy Land hardly seems so holy without Jerusalem - but you can see that he won't budge. However, he does grant you a different concession. "Perhaps it is meet that you should be granted Alexandria or Damietta should your troops perform valiantly and succeed in taking them. These are valuable ports that could retain contact with the rest of your empire through maritime travel, while trading peacefully with the inland territory of Egypt that my people will control. Does this sound acceptable?"
"Agreed. Together, Egypt shall be ours!"
After that, the conversation winds up fairly rapidly, mostly focused on hammering out the details of the agreement. The two of you will meet again in Antioch when the campaign begins soon. You've been promised everything west of the Orontes and Jordan Rivers and north of Mt. Carmel, plus Alexandria and Damietta if your troops can take them. In the Levant, this gives you the Phoenician coast with its excellent harbors, as well as a number of cities, including Tortosa, Tripoli, Tyre, Sidon, and Acre. It does not include Jerusalem, Jaffa, Homs, Damascus, or Caesarea (of Palestine). You don't spend much time on polite talk, but you suspect you'll have plenty of time to get to know your newfound ally on the campaign.
The two of you part ways soon after business is concluded, with Paulus accompanying the Sultan back to Baghdad. Leaving the Euphrates behind you, you make haste back to Caesarea (of Asia Minor). You're eager to begin preparations for the venture, but you promised yourself you'd look into Psellus' problems there on the way back and see what you could do to sort them out. Riding through the city, you find it difficult to reconcile the crumbling houses and burnt cathedral with the polite and reasonable-sounding man you just spoke and allied with. War can make reasonable men do unreasonable things, you reflect.
For the second time in two weeks, Psellus rides out to meet you. You quickly explain the agreement you'd reached with the Sultan. While he seems leery of making war with Egypt, he is glad that you found common cause with the Seljuk. For his part, Botaniates, when you meet him, seems rather pleased. "An excellent idea your majesty," he says. "In fact, with peace with the Turks, if the Sultan honors his pledge and stops the immigration that vexes us, then there is little need for my presence here on the eastern fronteir. I would be honored to accompany you on this campaign."
"I'm certain your advice would be invaluable, Botaniates," you tell him. "When it comes time to decide who will accompany me, you will be one of the first I consider."
As Psellus explained before, the problem currently facing you is the difficulty of suppressing the "warrior spirit" of the Turcomen, as Arslan put it. They have been fighting the Greeks and each other, and most have so far refused to acknowledge the authority of Roman law. The current tactic that Psellus and Botaniates have been attempting is to allow the Turcomen to keep the land they've already taken, but refuse to let them take any more. When financially possible, they've been trying to provide some compensation for the displaced people, but money is short, and there is still a good deal of disgruntlement among the natives. New Turcomen to arrive must, if they wish to abide by Psellus' rules, buy the land they will inhabit, or take imperial land via the thema system, in exchange for military service with the local theme. Most of this has been given out in the depopulated theme of Lycandos. One of the hurdles this program is facing is that the land is not as desirable as that in Cappadocia which can be taken by force, and another is that Psellus is requiring the nomadic Turks to convert to Orthodox Christianity. Most of the tribesmen are Muslim or pagan, and while some have converted, most have shown resistance to the idea.
Psellus acknowledges that his program has not been very effective so far, but believes that it will improve dramatically when the Turcomen stop coming over. Botaniates is of a similar mind, but wants to put more pressure on the Turcomen to sign the thema contract rather than settling as civilian families. In order to help this process, he thinks it would be best if you lifted restrictions on religion that Psellus put into place. "I'd prefer they were Christian, too," he says, "but realistically, I think it would be best to provide them a useful place here as fast as possible. They can be converted over time once they've accepted their status as Roman citizens."
The strategos, or thematic governor, of Cappadocia asks to meet with you, too. He's been playing a role in this effort as well, and has his own take on it. "Personally, your majesty, and I hope you don't mind my saying so, but I think this whole thing has been a mistake. The Roman citizens around here are angry at the Imperium and angry at my troops as well, for playing a part in this. I agree that the Turks who've signed the thema contract and joined my men are brave and seem loyal enough, but I don't think it's worth all the difficulty of trying to win the rest over. I would be most pleased if you were to evict all of the Muslim and pagan Turcomen from Cappadocia and Lycandos, and I believe your citizens would be as well."
Another idea comes to you, as well. What if you were to recruit the Turcomen to your own Imperial service, rather than that of the themes? It would be similar to your earlier idea that you considered presenting to the Sultan, but applied to your own nation. You would create a seperate corps of Turcomen, emphasize its presitge, and attempt to recruit as many of the nomads into its ranks as possible, with money, influence, the promise of land... whatever you and Psellus can offer them. Those that refuse can be dealt with in Psellus' manner or ejected from Roman land if they continue to cause problems.
Then there's the matter of the Turcomen that attacked you. You definitely haven't forgotten about them.
A. 1. Allow Psellus to continue his current program of civilian settlement, accompanied by thematic recruiting of those who are willing to convert and sign the thema agreement. He insists that it will work much better without continual immigration. This plan would allow the Turcomen a good deal of freedom on whether they wish to become civilian herders or thematic warriors.
2. Follow Botaniates' advice. Strongly pressure the Turcomen to join the thematic army and recieve land in Lycandos in exchange. Those that refuse will be permitted to do so, but may suffer less-than-favorable treatment by the provincial authorities. He doesn't want to force them to convert, though, so he will allow them to keep their current religion when they join up.
3. Follow the strategos' advice. Evict all of the Turcomen who haven't already converted to Orthodox Christianity. This may take some military involvement in the short term, but it will make things peaceful and prosperous here again much faster than the other plans promise.
4. Go with your own idea of recruiting them into an Imperial unit created for the purpose. Cajole them into joining willingly with high pay and honors. Those who don't wish to join will be allowed to stay, but will be readily evicted if they cause trouble.
B. 1. Tell Botaniates and the strategos to make a top priority out of finding the tribesmen that attacked you and make sure that they are punished. You can't let them get away with attacking the Emperor himself!
2. Tell your men to search for them, but make them a relatively low priority. There's enough things to worry about here without divering extensive resources into such a hunt.
A) 4 and B) 1. In fact. We needed more soldiers anyway, and those nomads are going to pay for that.
Finally, the negotiation is concluded. If the plans all go well Michael Ducas will make his mark in Roman history at last.
Though Jerusalem isn't going to be ours, and the prestige if victory is achieved less than what it could be; economically, southern Palestine was poorer and less populated than the rest. And the control of Alexandria or Damietta could be very useful if war ever happens with the Turks. Heavily fortified "beachhead" cities ready for a Roman landing and invasion straight up the Nile much faster than a march from Baghdad. I'd rather go with Alexandria, though, it gives more prestige, being the ancient city with much Hellenistic history and pride in it.
Now to the choices...
I'd choose choice 4 for the first set, based on several reasons.
Psellus' plan isn't working, and religious conversion isn't really worth it in face of such situations. Choice 1 is not the way to go.
Choice 3 is too drastic, and may, in fact, offend your new ally long before you should. ~;)
Choice 2, though sounds good, I fear that too many Turkish thematic troops would change the already disturbed balance of power in the area. They need to be used elsewhere, if used at all. And they won't do anything, and be much less effective than they should in defending the Eastern border, considering how it would eventually be their cousins anyway that cross the Roman border. Nonetheless, I will still go with the relaxing of the conversion rule set up by Psellus.
Choice 4, though financially costly, would give you a useful unit in the upcoming campaign against the Fatimids, and after that, they will be a potent tool against the Normans, and for your own ambitions in the West.
For the second set I'm really indecisive. But considering that Imperial prestige may (or may not...) be at stake, and stability is easier if an example is made, the hunt for the arrogant raiders should be taking a high priority. Choice 1 for set B.
Edit: wow, I see we're agreeing, NeonGod. :bow:
Great minds...Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Hmm... Little point in giving a dissenting voice here. The rule of the first and the majority is already working.
But in any case I would have gone for A1 and B1.
Psellus told you on your way to the meeting, that he had trouble gettign te Turks to remain placid since new arrivals kept coming, but that he was indeed initially successful each time. Therefor I believe he would succeed when the little adventure to Egypt was over.
There is no way I would want to hunt smoke, so no 3. As bad as that makes me feel... your civilians will have to deal with it :embarassed:
Let me get this straight, if Michael tries A4, and they don't join up... they follow A1 right? If so, I think A4 would be the best bet. Nice to have some fast moving archers. But how exactly are they going to be disicplined? Break the tribes up and put them in separate units? That will take time that I am not so sure we have (assuming they are to be used on this campaign).
And where is this 'high pay' coming from? All the same, I go with A4.
With B, I just don't think it is worth trying to find them. I don't recall noticing anything speical about the troops that attacked, nothing to distinguish them (aside from ineptitude). So B2 for me (and yes, I know I'm outvoted).
Azi
We're just promising high pay, which we can either deliver once Egyptian lands are ours, or we have them all killed off in a suicidal battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
I like the sound of 3. as it would deal with the problem quickly and will gain popularity with your people who see you as either betraying them or a weakling. However, it could lead to a long war of attrition as your forces try to hunt down the Turks, and it would cause more devastation. Although it might sour relation swith the Sultan somewhat, I think you are too much of a valuable ally for him to worry about some uncontrollable nomads.
4. Does sound the best bet, although it wouldn't consider settling them in Asia Minor. Give them land in Bulgaria and the Balkans or perhaps Southern Italy. But whatever happens do not group them together. As a very small minority they will easily integrate into the surrounding population, together in a group they will retain their customs and barbarian ways. As pleasing this may sometimes sound to the modern ear., YOU DO NOT WANT THIS! In the same way, I don't think it is advisable to take them with to fight in Egypt. Send them against the bandits in Bulgaria. When the Turcomans reire ans settle on their lands, they must revert to the Crown upon their death. Descendants will be granted that land in return for continued military service.
As for B. well I don't that the incidence was very important. Finding them would prove difficult and costly. Just forget it.
Oh I forgot something. I just looked at a map of the Holy Land, and I don't think it would be that threatening to the Seljuks' connection to Egypt if land until the River Elah and between the sea and the Dead Sea/Jordna River. It would not be that much more land and you could come to a compromise by allowing the Seljuks access to the pilgrim sites, no duties on the ships coming into the ports or tolls across the land and military access to troops (but be careful not to let any actual troops be posted there). See the map here (warning: very large map 1000k):http://www.katapi.org.uk/images/Maps...PhysicalHR.jpg
A4, obviously as it is my ow suggestion ~D and B1. You have to represent security for you and your people.
I would follow the advice of sending them to Bulgaria and Sicily and only take to Africa the most loyal ones. Or a very small part. Just in case.
NeonGod: Unfortunately, nobody's going to believe that they're an elite, highly-honored corps unless you at least get them some decent equipment. So you're going to have to spend some money there, at least.
King Henry: Nevertheless, that's what Arslan insisted on. In his defense, if he'd given Michael land up to the Elah, then if he needed to move troops from Egypt to Syria or vice versa without entering Byzantine territory, he'd have to loop them around through the arid land to the south and east of the Dead Sea, and then through miles of yet more desert all the way to Damascus. The whole trip would have only one settlement of reasonable size (Panias) in which to rest and resupply. And this is after already passing through a lot of desert in the Sinai.
Of course, there's other reasons for him to want the area in question. Controlling Jerusalem confers some prestige even on a Muslim. Also, that land contains Jaffa, which, since he won't have Phoenicia, will be his only decent port to the Mediterranean east of Egypt.
The concessions you're talking about could largely eliminate most of these problems, but you're assuming that Arslan trusts you explicitly. Just because you promise to share the goodies doesn't mean you actually will, and Arslan doesn't know you well enough to take that risk. Also, by offering Damietta and Alexandria he gives you an incentive (other than honor) to continue helping him after the two of you have already conquered the Levant.
*****
You quickly decide in favor of your own idea. It's a given that you can use more troops with war looming over you, and if you can establish stability in Cappadocia at the same time, so much the better. You explain your idea to Psellus and Botaniates. Alexius sits in on the discussion as well.
"I believe we can make better use of these Turcomen as Imperial soldiers, not thematic ones," you tell them. "I would like to create a new cavalry corps especially for the Turks living within the Empire. It will be an elite unit with much prestige... and good pay, as well. Any Turcoman who joins will be entitled to have the Empire pay a portion of the price of the land his family settles on. Thus, we will help the settlement and nationalization process in addition to assisting our military strength. I will require you, my representatives in this area, to make sure that the Turcomen know of this opportunity."
"Your majesty," Psellus protests, "my current tactic is much less expensive. Surely..."
"I'm sorry, my old teacher, but my mind is made up. Price is a secondary concern now, with war on the horizon."
"What about those that don't want to join, then?" He asks.
"Treat them as you have been doing. They certainly shouldn't be forced to send their sons to my service. Just encouraged. I won't require that they convert, either. I want to give the Turcomen some pride in their status as Imperial citizens, and that won't work if hardly any of them join."
"Sire," Alexius pipes up. "I am intrigued by this new corps you will invent. Would you permit me to drill them myself? I would be pleased to take this new institution under my wing."
Botaniates looks ready to protest the whole affair, too, but you speak before he has a chance to do so. Alexius gave an excellent account of himself on the voyage, and you doubt anyone else would be more qualified than he. "Of course, Comnenus. I believe you will do well by the new corps. I also believe that we should give it a name, and we can do no better than the powerful ancient horse archers of Iran. I would like to christen the new unit the 'Immortals.' Recruiting will begin as soon as you are able to make it happen.
"Oh, and one other thing. As you've probably heard by now, we suffered an attack by Turcoman raiders on the way to the meeting with the Sultan. You may have access to some of the sharpest men who accompanied me, to give you appropriate descriptions of the events. I want you to find them as punish them for this transgression, as swiftly as you are able."
"Yes, Imperator," acknowledge Psellus and Botaniates.
You depart for the capital only hours later.
After another long trip across Anatolia in which you discuss the details with Alexius about the equipment, battle dress, and organization of the future Immortals, you come to the Bosporus. The mighty walls of Constantinople loom across the strait like the gleaming gray-white armor of a giant. There are few sights that make you prouder to be Roman. You're shocked to realize that you've never written an iambic about it; you'll have to remedy that someday.
When you enter the palace, you immediately seek out John Ducas. You find him resting with his wife in his suite, though he quickly excuses himself from her presence and accompanies you to the throne room. You sent a rider ahead of you with news about the upcoming war and your solution to the Turcoman problem, so he can largely concentrate on tell you his news, rather than the other way around.
While you were gone, a large number of semi-barbaric warriors carrying axes began to arrive in Thrace by way of merchant shipping. Luckily, they seem to be peaceful so far. They seem to be Saxons who have fled the conquest of England by William, the illegitimate son of the Duke of Normandy, and came here because they heard that there are good positions available for capable Northmen among the Varangian Guard. The Caesar has been reluctant to recruit them because of the tight financial situation, especially now that money will be needed for the new Immortals unit. Reluctantly, you agree that the treasury is too shallow to allow an increase in the size of the Guard. In the short term, the frequency of patrols in the region has been increased, just in case things turn hostile.
In Bulgaria, Crispinus has met with some success in dealing with both the brigands and raiders. The attacks are now focused largely on the towns close to the border, and the latest tax shipment from Bulgaria arrived on time. The missing shipment is still nowhere to be found, however, and his letter to you reports that he believes it will take several more months to completely eliminate the brigands. Again, he requests more troops with which to pursue the raiders back across the border, but you are forced to decline. The upcoming war with Egypt has a much higher priority.
As you expected, Emperor Constantine did not play a large part in governing the Empire, though he did help the megas logothetes (the head treasurer) in some of his duties. They report that together they've brought some more order to the Imperial tax registry, but the effect on collection efficiency is small.
As you begin preparing for the campaign, you are approached by John Ducas' son, Constantine Ducas, who offers to accompany you. He has been making a study of strategy and has assisted his father in many of his duties. He's always been quite an energetic fellow, and has been useful in minor roles so far. In addition, Epiphania comes to you one day and says that your brother Andronicus would like to come with you, but is reluctant to ask because he has no formal military experience. "He's taken an interest in those things, though. Especially after you did, he began to see the utility of martial skills for a member of the Imperial household. He would appreciate some real experience on campaign."
You also have to decide how to go about getting Venice's help for the coming naval war. It may be an Imperial protectorate, but it's a rather headstrong one with significant power in its own right. You seek advice on the matter.
The Caesar believes you should just send a simple request. "To be honest, though, I don't think it would work. Vencie is a city of merchants, and they conduct a lot of profitable trade with Egypt. We would have to promise them much to get them to go to war with a valuable trade partner. We are probably better off without such expensive help."
When you ask John Scylitzes, he has a different idea. "Closer ties with Venice could be extremely useful to our Empire, and I think allying against a common enemy would be a good first step. Perhaps we can reduce or eliminate the tariff on traders from our protectorates in Constantinople. Offer them this and a firmer alliance in which we protect each other's business interests with our navies. Surely such on offer will entice them to help."
Your own instinct, however, tells you to promise them tariff-free trading rights in Alexandria and Damettia once you've conquered them. In the long run, this would probably give them a better situation than the one they currently have in Egypt, and so there would be a strong incentive for them to help.
You have no less than three choices to make at this time.
A. What to do with Venice:
1. Just send a request for help. Like the Caesar mentioned, it's very unlikely to work, but you'd rather not have to bribe your protectorates to help you.
2. Offer them closer naval ties and trade priviledges in Constantinople. This may be costly in the long run (tariffs are an important part of your revenue) but the naval help and increased security granted by an alliance with Venice may be worthwhile.
3. Promise them tax-free trading in Damietta and Alexandria once the campaign is over. Of course, there's a risk that you won't be able to take those cities after all, in which case the Seljuks might get them.
B. How much of your army to bring on the campaign:
1. 20,000 soldiers
2. 30,000 soldiers
3. 40,000 soldiers
4. 50,000 soldiers
C. Who to bring on the campaign (to keep this from getting too messy, let's say you can pick up to two, but no more):
1. Nicephorus Botaniates
2. Manuel Comnenus
3. Nicephorus Bryennius
4. Alexius Comnenus
5. John Ducas
6. Constantine Ducas (your cousin, not your brother)
7. Andronicus Ducas
A3, B2, C4 and 7. ~:)
A3. Venice would be willing to support you to the end (I mean into Egypt) that way, since the war will have to be won and won spectacularly if they're to benefit. And your own Greek merchants won't get mad at you, either.
B2. The Fatimids are weak. But the Turks must not be able to stab you in the back. So around 30,000 is good. Not too much (other borders aren't that peaceful) but not too few, either.
For C...
Botaniates will have to continue protecting the Eastern border.
Manuel Comnenus will hold the martial side of Constantinople for your side and reduce a chance of mutiny.
Bryennius is a skillful general, true. But he'd do well being ready-to-be-called in Constantinople. Who knows when we'll need an experienced general of some reputation soon somewhere? Actually, I'd request that he be put around the arriving Saxons and make friends with them. If we can't hire them now may be the spoils from Egypt will give us the money? These skilled former Huskarls will cut down any Norman or Italian infantry they fought. And they will be very willing to cut down the Normans for you. ~;)
Alexius Comnenus is still quite young, and a very skilled commander at that. He doesn't yet has the reputation of Bryennius though. He would do well serving you as second-in-command. And you'd do well to have this skilled-emperor-in-actual-history as a friend and companion.
John Ducas will continue to be the pillar for your throne in Constantinople, alongside Manuel Comnenus.
I don't really see the point of bringing Constantine Ducas along. He might be a possible junior general for you but the empire already have enough generals as it is.
Andronicus needs to be made more loyal and more useful. Though he won't be of any real help you'd make his status higher in the eyes of the court at Constantinople with him accompanying you, therefore a useful brother of the emperor to counter your youngest brother as needed. The family of Epiphania will also be confirmed that Andronicus has a place in your plans.
So for C choose Alexius and Andronicus.
Also, would anyone agree with me that the Turks, may be, should be sent as reinforcements to Crispinus, after all? That should satisfy the general, gives him more "weapons at hand", and the soldiers will do well as they're swift and nimble, and loyal as there is no point to revolt in Bulgaria.
Edit: After Vykke's post below. I decide to advise that Nicephorus Bryennius should also be put on training the Turkish "immortals." If he had "touched" both the Turks and the Saxons (as in my suggestion above), he might even manage to provide a useful opinion of both groups' abilities and loyalty.
Agree with AntiochusIII
I meant to mention this, but it slipped my mind. If you choose to bring Alexius with you, he'll put someone else in charge of training and leading the Immortals while he's gone, since they won't be ready in time to take part in the campaign. If you leave him behind, he'll stay in Constantinople and continue to work with them personally.
I'm not sure if that'll affect your choice or not, but if so, feel free to change it.
Antiochus, I think you're getting Bryennius mixed up with Botaniates (which is understandable... they have the same first name, and similar last names!). Bryennius is still relatively untested as a general, though he had a fairly successful career as an army captain. Botaniates is an older and well-respected general with a lot of field experience.
A3, B2 and C2,6. Constantine is still young and impressionable. I think it'd be good to have him soak up some experience and make him feel privileged by being given the chance. More nobles who are happy will be better in the long run. Manuel's a sharp guy - I'm sure he can teach and slaughter Egyptians at once.
A 2/3. I don't know how the money works out, but whichever would be cheaper for the Empire is what I pick. Probably A3 since Constantinople is so very important.
B 2. I don't know how many troops will be needed afterall, and 30,000 is a heckuva force! That is a lot of power, but still leaves 45,000 for defense (and whatever you call Bulgaria), maybe enough for 15,000 for an emergency army.
C 2 and 7. As much as I like Alexius, it seems silly to me to take the commander of a unit with me for who-knows-how-long, and I would really like to have Manuel there to help out. And I just think Andronicus will prove to be a fantastic help. Call it a hunch.
As an aside Vykke, could you have Constantine Ducas assist Alexius? Maybe make Constantine the XO (or whatever their equivalent is?). He wants to help, he comes from a worthy family, and I think he will learn a lot. He might prove to be useful to lead the first trained unit to help out with Bulgaria for example...
The Saxons could prove to be very useful. If they are Mercs, maybe they will work for the Venetians? Maybe you could ask Alp if he wants some very strong western european troops for a hard core of infantry? Sure you might wind up fighting them... but if they are Mercs, you could wind up with that anyway.
Azi
Don't worry. I know who they are. Botaniates, if memory serves, will go on to be an emperor (and a bad one at that) and deposed by the Comneni brothers. Unless I'm confusing him with a few other emperors... And, of course, he is the protector of the Eastern border at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vykke
Bryennius, on the other hand, never becomes an emperor. Rather, he served loyally and skillfully to the empire and the Comneni dynasty until his death during John Comnenus' reign. Though he's not a seasoned veteran, he's still more experienced someone like Alexius.
Oh, and the idea of young Constantine Ducas (the cousin) assisting whoever in charge of training the Turks (and, if my request is agreed upon, making friends with the Saxons) is a great idea. Thanks.
Antiochus: I stand corrected. You know your history. You might want to keep in mind, though, that this is an alternate history thread, and any individual can play a radically different role in the unfolding of events than they did historically. ~:)
********
You quickly decide on your own idea as the most meritous, with regards to the Venetian question. You're well-versed in Latin, and so feel comfortable penning a letter on your own to the Doge, a fellow named Dominico Contarini. You've never met him, but hopefully he's a reasonable sort. You focus on discussing this as a valuable investment on Venice's part - a military conflict and loss of trade income now, resulting in increased profit over the long term. You summon the Venetian emissary in Constantinople and hand the letter to him personally.
The choice of what leaders to bring with you is tougher. You strongly consider bringing Manuel, but decide that his knowledge might be better used guarding Imperial territory against potential intrusion. The same goes for Botaniates in the east. You were, however, impressed by Alexius' handling of the problems that came up in your journey to the Euphrates, and feel like you got along well with him. You pass along the order that he is to find a replacement to work with the Immortals and join you on campaign. You will humor Andronicus and bring him along, as well. You feel some slight trepidation about the lack of experience this will lend your leadership - you yourself are still young, and Alexius and Andronicus are younger yet, neither having seen more than twenty summers, and none of you have commanded large-scale conflicts before. Still, you've been reading up on Julius Caesar's Memoirs and other classics on strategy, and you plan to bring them with you for consultation. Having the wisdom of such indomitable ancients at your fingertips should help a good deal in overcoming any deficiencies in personal experience.
Alexius, at your suggestion, appoints Constantine Ducas to lead the Immortals in his absence. When you tell Andronicus you've decided to let him accompany you, he doesn't seem as thrilled as you expected. In fact, you know your brother quite well, and you think he's actually rather annoyed, though he tries to hide it. You begin to wonder if Epiphania is already tired of her husband and wanted to get him out of her suite. Still, it would probably hurt his pride if you retracted the offer now, and it might do him good to get out and do something to better the Empre.
You soon begin to muster your thirty thousand, the most you wanted to bring as you've heard there is currently a food shortage in Egypt and you do not want to find yourself unable to feed all your men. It takes a bit of time to gather these soldiers, organize them, and obtain adequate logistical support. You can't help but wish it could be done faster, as the Fatimid caliph is sure to hear about your preparations soon if he hasn't already, but it can't be helped. In any event, Alp Arslan said that it would take him a while to gather his troops as well. The goal is to meet with Arslan in the second week of August near the border of Byzanytine Syria with full armies in tow, where you will coordinate your plans.
The Doge's emissary returns with his reply sooner than you expected. He is happy to inform you that he has accepted your offer and will lend a number of his naval vessels to your noble cause. However, he insists that he will have to keep half of his fleet close to Venice, as he is worried about the possibility of Norman intervention, in which case they might be needed to defend the city.
August seems to roll around very quickly. With the help of Alexius and Andronicus, you assemble your troops at the barracks, form them into columns, and march them from the city. Throngs of people gather by the side of the road in the Mediterranean heat to watch them go. Many cheer, but you get the feeling that most don't really feel much attachment to the foreigners that dominate the army.
Your march takes you south of Cappadocia this time, past Seleucia and Tarsus and on into Syria. These areas are mountainous, with many rocky passes and rushing rivers that spill into valleys and patches of coastal flatland brimming with orchards and vinyards. One of your predecessors, eager to displace the Muslims who had settled here when it was under Arab rule, encouraged Armenians to immigrate in large numbers. His program was so successful that Cilicia is now known sometimes as "Lesser Armenia." In more recent times, even more have arrived after fleeing the conquest of their homeland by the Seljuks. Almost every sign that you see is written in Armenian. It's a tongue that you're passingly familiar with, but you always focused more of your attention in your lingual studies on higher languages, such as Latin and Hebrew.
Syria itself is very different. As you travel, the mountains become drier and drier, eventually turning into flatter desert. You keep close to the coast as long as possible to remain in the relatively hospitable terrain there, but since the meeting takes place near the Byzantine-Seljuk border, you lead your men into the arid lands eventually. Luckily, the Byzantine officers know how to handle desert marches, and help the mercenary leaders, to many of whom this is a new challenge.
Unfortunately, you discover that Alp Arslan is running a bit late. There is only a small encampment of soldiers there, more of a placeholder than an army, among whose number the Sultan is not included. He has, however, sent a message ahead with these men, who tell you that they were instructed to ensure that no eyes see it before yours. When their commander brings it to you he eagerly shows off its unbroken seal, apparently proud of his control over his men. You politely congtratulate him for pursuing his duty so vigilantly and then oust him from your pavillion so you can open it.
"Wise Emperor of the Romans," the letter begins, "I regret that the mustering of my forces has taken slightly longer than projected. I am certain that rushing these matters, however, would result in an unacceptable diminishment of organization. I expect to arrive at our agreed-upon meeting point in no more than three weeks. I hope that you and your followers can forgive me for my tardiness and wait in sufficient comfort for my arrival. I would like to take this opportunity, however, to explain to you the grand strategy I and my advisors have settled on for the opening stages of the invasion, so that you may ruminate on it and, I hope, provide your willing support for it when we meet again face-to-face.
"Once my forces reach the theatre, I believe it would be prudent to divide our two armies once again, with your hardy men advancing directly along the coastline, seizing whatever settlements are possible until significant opposition presents itself. You will then attempt to pin down the opposing forces and force a stalemate. In the meantime, because my followers are, if I may be so bold as to say so, more suited to desert travel than your own, I will bring them through the transJordanian lands to the east of our objective settlements, then, while you occupy regional defenders, I will take Gaza and leave the majority of my troops there to prevent reinforcement from Egypt, while the rest proceeds north, where, if God wills it, we will surround and eliminate the defenders between us."
You do indeed ruminate on this a bit, then present it to your two advisors. You're reluctant to wait an entire three weeks for Arslan to show up, as the Egyptians definitely know you're coming by now, and the longer you wait the more time they will have to prepare. You don't know the current state of Egyptian readiness, but they can't be getting any weaker. You explain this to Alexius and Andronicus after they each read the letter. "I would prefer we pressed forward with the attack as soon as possible, giving them less time to stockpile food and arrows and train defensive militias. It seems wiser to me to attack while the enemy is weakest, and then go as far into his territory as possible, rather than waiting for him to strengthen while my own men become bored and lazy with waiting in Antioch. When the Sultan arrives he can block Gaza as he planned, but we would by that point have gained more land with greater casualties to the enemy, and securing the Levant would be only an exercise in cleaning up the surviving forces."
Alexius disagrees. "Sire, I believe it would be prudent to wait for the Sultan so we may act with greater strength. In fact, simple though it sounds, I advise against going through with the Sultan's plan, and instead advancing along the coast with our two armies in tandem, each supporting the other in battle. In this way we could coordinate very well with each other and bring enormous force to bear on the defense that presents itself. We would advance inexorably across the Holy Land and then into Egypt."
Andronicus has a more ambitious plan. "Let us use our naval strength, brother. Arslan offered us Alexandria if we could take it. We should do so. Not only would this secure the city for us in the long term, it would also go a long way toward cutting off vital supplies and food from the West, as Alexandria is one of the two main ports in Egypt. The other is Damietta, and naturally we would want to take this as well as soon as possible. We would direct an aggressive maritime assault on the Egyptian navy, and as soon as we are able, push our transports through to establish our presence in Alexandria. From there, we would do as much damage to Fatimid military capabilities as possible while Arslan conquers the Levant for us and then comes in to help us finish off the Fatimids in their heartland."
Your are now choosing an overarching strategy to assume in the coming months:
1) Follow the Sultan's plan. Cut off reinforcement and destroy the Palestinian defenders between you.
2) Follow your own wiles. Attack fast and hard, relying on your own strength only, before the Fatimids can reinforce the Levant any more.
3) Follow Alexius' advice. Join your army with the Sultan's and slowly roll over the Levant with overwhelming force.
4) Follow Andronius' plan. Attack aggressively in the naval sphere, land your army in Alexandria, and attack the Fatimid heartland directly.
I'm going for 1. 2 sounds way too risky, paticularly with the lack of experienced leaders in your army. 3 also isn't too good, as it would be slow going, and armies working in tandem often created more problems than not due to differing views of commanders.
I say go for 4. It would be excellent to open a second front, but wait until the Sultan attacks Syria before embarking. You need most of the Fatamid forces concentrated on the Syrian borders so that you can take them by suprise in the rear. Let the Sultan have heavy casualties in the beginning, it will make his conquest slower and yours easier. And remeber, the Sultan only accorded you Alexandria and Damietta if you could take them.
I'd usually say 4 too, but Michael and his companions seem too inexperienced to pull off such a complicated manoeuvre. Getting the ships organised, loading the troops, and actually getting to the target is a process in which much can go wrong; even more experienced commanders found it a trouble without extensive preperation. Following 1 means that Michael's inexperience is balanced by the Sultan's skills.
Remember, Michael isn't really cut out for the military side of things, and his company at present lacks men with extensive experience of waging war.
If I (the player) could take full control of the organization, it would be so much easier, so #4 in that case.
Unfortunately, there could be a lack of ships, and the Venetians are a rather untrustworthy bunch. Maybe plan #1 would work.
I'd take 4. You have to use your allies and with venetian support you should be able to destroy the Egyptian navy. In the worst scenario, if you cannot take the city, you can embark back and ship back to Palestine or wherever.
And besides, I'd rather be doing something instead of sitting by the seashore for 3 weeks...
Well... You do have your own Byzantine Navy on top of the Venetian ships. That should be enough to overpower the Egyptian Navy. I take it that the Byzantine and Egyptian navies were about equal at this time, so the Venetian ships are crucial.
While we are stronger it is not a critical mass. A reverse at sea could easily happen, but I expect that experienced naval commanders are in charge of either fleet, so there should be enough capable advises when the time comes for naval warfare.
On the other hand, it is extremely complex to organize this, but we have three weeks to do it. It should be enough to make it happen, with perhaps the Sultan coming by in time for you to explain the plan. He will most likely agree to it (in the hopes that you will tie up any reinforcements, he is after all still going to trap the Fatimid army in the Levant).
It carries on the instance of rather easy victory at sea, or else you risk losing a lot of troops in needless fashion.
I still say #4, but only because we are there to guide it. Had it been Alexius or Andronicus alone I would never have gone for it.
Actually, It just occurred to me: Embark on your ships and head over to Gaza. Land and push the egyptian army towards the advancing Turks. That way you are the one controlling the access of egyptian reinforcements into PAlestine and have the route into the egyptian heartlands open. Then let the Sultan deal with the Egyptians and make haste to Alexandria and Damietta.
How about that?
Could work... But remember that the army in the Levant is merely 'local', and not the entire Fatimid force. We risk that the other forces attack us in the back while engaged with the army in Palestine.
That is the reason why I think Arslan will agree to #4, then he won't have to think about that part of the army hitting him in the back (because we are dealing with it).
P.S Vykke, this is an excellent Alternate History, I'm hooked. Better than damned soaps!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
Exactly, but that army being local will not stand against our army so we will skirmish and make them retreat and fortify ourselves against the forces coming from Egypt. And because goofing it from Egypt is significantly slower than sailing we will have enough time to prepare, choose and fortify the position before they arrive. In the meantime the Sultan or your own advanced forces will be able to either crush or keep pushing away the palestinian army. We only need to push them away until they are closer to the Sultan than they are to us.
What just occurred to me: send a message to Ducas and tell him to be prepared in case the Turks are not "delayed" but heading into the empire.