Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonArchangel
Excellent choice ~;) , especially the recon part. I agree with D A .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonArchangel
Excellent choice ~;) , especially the recon part. I agree with D A .
Let me this clearly. You want a #1 and a #3 in case it is not as easy. Trouble is that Das Reich is fighting teeth and nails here. It is not certain that they can spare the forces or perhaps even get around the enemy spearheads to do recon.
Remember this though. We are talking massive scales here. Hitting enemy formations in the flank is disasterous, even if you prepare for it, it leaves all your tactical and strategic considerations in dire straits. Das Reich has pretty much been hit in the front so far so it has been able to weather such attacks.
Lastly Das Reich attacked deep into the enemy heartland here. The 5th GT were supposed to be an active reserve, not end up as a second line of defense.
The Soviet system of defense was centered around tenacious first lines and large operational reserves.
So the point of #1, can LAH make it in time, and will they be strong enough?
I don't need DR to do recco. Recco can be done later, the Russians aren't likely to secure their flanks in the time LAH can travel 10 miles. And again, if it gets too desperate, DR can run off.
Take option number one.Let the strongest of enemy forces to exhaust them selves against your battle line they will be so focused on their attack that liebstardarte will crush them when they reach their flank.You are making Russians do exactly what you want them to do.exellent. :bow:
You could get your backhand by withdrawing. Fall back and suck the Russians in. But that is risky, largest payoff but lady luck hasn't been Manstein's best friend throughout this. So go with number one, although if Kraxis would be so kind as to provide the improtant numbers on LAH and DR/5th and 3rd that could sway it.
Number 1. Just a little longer.
Kraxis,
what is the situation in the air. Do we control the air over the battle field now? Did Hartmann clear the sky?
It is a confused situation. Neither side has enough planes, and while you have managed to concentrate a large part of the eastern airpower your sudden attack has thrown the flyers themselves into confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
The effect is that often neither side can do much about ground attacks but have CAPs in place over important areas. Hartmann has indeed had some success, but the Russians have so far abstained from their usual 'big wing' attacks.
You have about 1500 planes in all, while the Russians are simply unknown, but thei lack of large scale attacks indicate that they are not too strong, perhaps 2500 at most.
Das Reich has about 90 tanks LAH has just recieved enough repaired vehicles to put it at 100 tanks. Both are pretty much at peak with infantry, though Das Reich has suffered some losses to their point units. So they are respectively at 16000 and 17000 troops.
The two Russian corps sound strong (well a corps is a strong formation), but air recon suggests that 3rd Mech is currently severely weakened in tanks with about 130 left and some 25000 troops, while 5th Guards Tanks are save the losses suffered during their two failed attacks at good strength with about 330 tanks and 35000 troops. This is sadly not facts but rather estimates from the pilots and intelligence officers.
Do not forget that a strong German division is often equated with a strong Russian corps at this time
Retreat! I think Stalin will order his general to start a counter attack at once. And start a massive air strike against the Soviet air force. Those Il2 can really spoil your day!
Whatever you do, do not retreat without giving the Russians a fight first.
No, no, no. Retreat! Make the Soviets believe that you have to send troops to the Western front. And that you are too weak to fight. Stalin will love to believe this and order a big offensive. Then you have him (and Hitler) were you want to have them.
Kraxis, you are always talking about the Panthers. What about the Ferdinands. If memory serves they appear in this battle first, too. Extremly effective against tanks. But then they had no MG and could not defend against infantry. And they were vulnerable against air attacks.
http://www.armybook.com/summary.html?code=0103020co3
Maybe you could give us also a weather forecast? Thank you! :bow:
All Elephants were sent to 9th Army and are thus in the hands of Model (Manstein and Hoth were not very fond of them). He does have them with him, but we have no impact on how he uses them. We could perhaps try to contact him but it not likely that he will change just because you gave him a call.
The weather has been fairly good for the season. Only local showers and in general spotted cover so the planes have been able to attack. But don't expect it to last.
And it became #1. So no retreats for you there Franconius. ~;)
The Gamble
"Hermann, it is risky to do that, you know it could end up in disaster."
Hoth nods. "Yes, but given the choices we have right now I find it the lesser evil."
You stare at the tactical map on the table in front of you, the situation is critical, you have had too much success for your own good. Those other armoured forces need to get in there at once. Where is Kempf and his panzers?
"Fine Hermann, we will do what you want. But give all the support you can for Kampfgruppe Heidekamp. A lot rides on their survival."
"Of course Erich. GD is fairly closeby, if we halt their artillery they should be able to support the position as would Totenkopf's."
"Ahhh... GD. Isn't it a long slow way to go around Butovo? Order it to take the village. It sits on the highway and blocks rapid advances."
So your orders are carried out. Even before you gave the order LAH was on their way northeast, their spearheads flying through the two weakened Rifle regiments in their way. They had been weak from even before the attacks and then they further weakened their position by throwing away a lot of infantry in their attack on 332nd. Progress is fast, and you estimate that LAH will reach its attackpoint in a few hours, maybe three if something goes wrong. That leaves enough time to carry out the attack on 5th GT Corps.
In the air you have noticed that the three Gruppen of JG52 have been particularly effective in the last few days, sweeping the skies of Russian planes. You demand that at least one Gruppe alway patrol the area around Hell's Foreyard. Atthe same time you send in the small force of Stuka-G with their guns to rip the tanks apart. Already their primary pilot, Hans Ulrich Rudel, has destroyed no less than 12 enemy tanks in this offensive.
On the ground below them an equal spectacle has played out, when Heidekamp' forces were about to pull back to their original positions, a single Tiger remained outside, its radioantennas blown off. For the better part of an hour it was alone, holding off the Russians with wellplaced shots, while its comrades supported it with longrange fire, clearing the tanks that did get into dangerous range. Its commander, Michael Wittmann, had simply no idea that he was alone until a short lull came about and he looked around. He prudently withdrew his tank.
But even so, the situation is very critical for Heidekamp.
At 4 o'clock he calls you up, to ask for permission to fall back. You can hear the gunner of his tank work in the background, you can sometimes even hear the gun go off. The HQ tank is in the thick of it.
"Sir, we are hard pressed. It just seems that there is no end to the Russian tanks. We blow them up, the next just drives around them, we gun them down, the next use them as cover. It is really a hell here. *interlude as the gunner fires his gun* I want to pull back."
You get great furrows in your forehead. "Sorry Heidekamp, you will have to hang on! Help is on the way, and you have the full support of both GD's and Totenkopfs artillery."
"Sure, but artillery doesn't stop T-34s. And the Panthers are finally giving up. I have lost no less than 12 of them to mechanical breakdowns the last few hours, I have a working total of 17 now. 21 are in the shop and a further 3 are sent to the rear with critical damage. They can't last much more."
"I have ordered that your position is priority for aircover of all kinds. Expect a lot of support. And just keep the Panthers still for the moment, try not to overwork their engines. For the sake of Germany, hold that position!"
"Will try Herr Field Marshall" comes the dry response as Heidekamp signs off.
You quickly turn to Hoth and inquite into the position of LAH.
It is still some way off, and has attracted some unwanted attention from the air, but its hould be ready within the hour.
Das Reich has been suffering anotehr massive tank attack, and again it was forced to pull back its outer positions. This time there was no counterattack, as the Russians were too strong. The division is just goingto hold on to its current position across the small river Vorskla. Hopefully it is enough of a boundary to keep 5th GT Corps on the other side.
The last hour goes with a slowness you have seldomly felt. Everything hinges on the arrival of LAH. Two important forces could get seriously mauled if they fail. And the entire offensive might falter. You occupy yourself with keeping up to date with GD's progress in Butovo. The division detached a battalion of infantry to take the village, but it is guarded by a weakened regiment of Guards (that poor 67th GR Division). They are only slowly getting anywhere and at a high cost. You order Totenkopf to also send a battalion.
Finally Hoth calls for you, LAH is ready. The last half hour the attacks on Das Reich has increased dramatically, tanks, infantry, even trucks with AA guns have attacked them. The Russians know LAH is coming. For a few minutes LAH exchanges fire with the Russian artillery, but nothing comes of it and the attack is launched.
The flank positions of 5th GT Corps is weakly held, but strongly defended. The LAH tanks roll over the positions, but the infantry is forced to fight a deadly fight with the survivors. Hastily dug gunpositions open up on the advancing tanks but they are scattered and not coordinated like your own Pakfronts, or even the positions you encountered at the front earlier.
For an hour the attack drives deeply into the flank of the Corps, and the attacks on Das Reich becomes confused. Some tanks halt and turn others press onwards, yet others just halt.
At this moment, a section from JG53/3 intercepts a transportplane and its escorts from an airfield on the inside of LAH's line of attack. Obviously someone is trying to get out after having led the men from the front. But he doesn't get far. The lumbering transport is brought down with the loss of half the wing over German lines.
The attacks on Das Reich stop completely as the attacks are now themselves under attack from the rear. LAH's spearhead has split up and is now going in different directions, one part going for the head athe other for the tail.
Now is the time for Das Reich to attack westwards against 3rd Mech Corps. You urge them on and press for an attack as soon as possible. Despite the fact that most tanks were facing another way a single reinforced company attacks with infantry in tow. Depsite their rather modest gains, it is soon clear that 3rd Mech is overstretched. They have no tanks left in their rear areas.
Again the attacks on Kampfgruppe Heidekamp slows down, eventually stopping completely as the armoured forces are reorganized to face the new threat. But their position, far from the attack makes it an exercise in futility. You wonder with amazement how this could have happened. The Army commander, or at leas the Front commander was it Rokossovsky? should have ordered a complete halt of 3rd Mech as soon as LAH was gaining momentum on 5th GT. But obviously the order never reached 3rd Mech, and now it is paying a heavy toll for that. As more and more tanks flow westwards the more unstoppable the advance becomes. By nightfall the corps is destroyed as a mobile unit. LAH has achieved much the same results, but 5th GT Corps managed to retreat in order with its 'soft' units.
As night falls the front is almost silent. Both sides completely exhausted from the heavy fighting. As if nature knows this, heavy rains start to fall to wash away the blood, soot and destruction of the day. Making the night a most miserable and cold one for the infantry of both sides.
GD and Totenkopf eventually did take Butovo, but only when Kampgruppe Heidekamp sent a company of Tigers and Panzergrenadiers to help out. You can't help but think it all was some kind of domino-effect. But tomorrow waits another battle, even as the engineers of both sides continue their nightly battles of minefields.
You are told that tomorrow 3rd Panzer Corps, Kempf's men are finally ready, and that Model will likely also start his attack, though he is not too happy about you going in like you did. Hitler is also rather angry with you, but your success has so far kept you clear of his wrath, the capture of land and prisoners will soothe him, but woe to you when you fail in that.
Kampfgruppe Heidekamp is exhausted, and it is quite low on workable tanks. In fact if he had been allowed to retreat you would have lost no less than 10 Panther and 7 Tigers that would have been blown up to prevent capture. They had been in the line as static gunturrets.
The breach ha been widened a good bit, as the capture of Butovo has brought GD into the line next to Totenkopf and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp and the advance of LAH has drastically opened the can in the east. Now 11th Panzer has been able to move up along the flank while 332nd has pulled back to keep an eye on the Rifle divisions down by the old front.
So what will happen tomorow?
1) Order Das Reich, LAH and 11th Panzer to resume the attack towards Oboyan, support with Kampfgruppe Heidekamps where needed. The only sizeable opponent that way is 31st Tank Corps, the last remnant of 1st Tank Army. You are clear of most prepared defenses, so it would be a battle of maneuver.
2) Keep up the attacks on the weakened Russian forces, those of 6th Gurds Rifle Army, 3rd Mech Corps and 5th GT Corps. But in general take it slowly, you men are tired.
3) Understand that Das Reich and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp are in need of rest, but let the rest do their job. LAH will attack more northeasterly towards open terrain of Prokhorovka, while 11th Panzer will drive across the front and join up with Kempf's forces. Totenkopf will resume it's attacks along with GD to keep the western forces occupied. Eventually they will let 3rd Panzer and 255th Infantry take over their positions.
4) Shift your attention from Oboyan to Prokhorovka in total. This will leave 31st Tank Corps in the dust while you have open and free terrain to play with. If you are lucky 3rd Panzer Corps can join up with you there. This of course will mean that Das Reich hav to fight another day at the front, and it's flank is presented to 31st Tank Corps.
5) Sit still and rest the men. Move up the infantry divisions to make certain that your flanks are secure for when you resume the advance. While it sounds silly, to leave the initiative like that, Model and Kempf will start their attacks, drawing off the Russian reinforcements.
Herr field Marshall.Well done. :bow: Now take option number 3.Das Reich and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp are so exhausted that you have to resupply them with reserves,ammunition and fuel.The others can move in the depth of the enemys defence.You must pressure Kempf and Model so they start their attacks so Russians have to spread their defences.After that we give them the next blow.
Nr.3 now. Keeping some sort of initiative might be useful.. ~:)
4. If you want to attack, keep on pushing! Now that you reached free terrain speed up!
Kraxis, I retreat ~;)
P.S.: Who is the guy we shot down?
Option 3 sounds prudent. I'd like a little more reinforcement, though..
Yup. Three is the way to go. Das Reich did its job well, but it suffers losses and its men are exhausted by the continuous fighting. Other divisions which were not as active yesterday can be pushed forward to keep on the initiative. It's not only that others carry their attacks to force the Russians to spread thinner, but you, too, should refuse the Russians a breathing space to concentrate their defenses elsewhere. From the looks of it, their trenches - your greatest trouble - are down, even though they continue to have hordes of men and tanks coming in droves.
Definatley get into 31st before 31st gets into you, but let DR and KH sit for a while. Especially Heidekamp, if 17 of their tanks were immobile, and dozens more out, they need to retool.
So three, and I hope as soon as that plane crashed there was at least a truck loaded with a few soldiers rushing towards it with all possible speed. A plane flying out of the way of an offensive means something, usually someone or something important was in the way.
Yeah Franconius, you wanted a pullback. ~;)
About the 'mystery plane'... We won't know just yet, but you could expect a report in the morning. It did after all fall onto the lane created by LAH's advance.
I hope it's a mech suit. Wolfenstein 3D all over again.
Rest Heidekamp and DR, keeping them on a rearguard. Choice 3. Also, get ready for a massive Russian counterattack. It's seems a bit suspcious that Russians would give ground as easily as this. Normally, they would fight alot harder.
Questions:
1.) How big is the 31st Tank Corps?
2.) What lies beyond the 31st Tank Corps?
3.) What's defending Prokhorovka?
It is estimated that 31st Tank Corps is a bit stronger than 3rd Mech but not as strong as 5th GT Corps, given it wasn't given the priority reinforcements. In all it is a rather strong formation.
The Russians haven't given up at all, but you have procured a lot of reinforcements in the time prior to the offensive, and you hit them at their strongest (attested by their tenacity, previously they wold just have melted away). By defeating the strongest units by attacking them (where they were thought to have been used offensively obviously) you have negated a very dangerous obstacle to your advance, but the cost has been heavy in materiel and supplies.
The road is pretty much open behind 31st, at least until Oboyan, at which point you should expect strategic reserves to come in. But on a local scale 31st are the last troops. It is possible though, that forces from 10th Tanks Corps might reposition to get in the way, but that could be considered a strategic maneuver.
The reports regarding Prokhorovka are not good, but intelligence officers have pieced together a puzzle that leaves two rather strong units in the vicinity, the 2nd Guards Tanks Corps and 35th Guards Rifle Corps. They do not know how strong they are, but it is felt that the sector behind Belgorod was the weakest part of the line, so they might not be up to specs. Also neither are directly in the area, both a little distance south towards Belgorod. An area 3rd Panzer Corps has as operational area.
Discussed the situation with my staff last night and this is he result:
1. We should never forget that we do not only need a minor success. Killing some corps or armies is just not enough. We need a total victory.
2. The enemy knew we would attack. They have a deep defence zone and big forces for a counter strike, just like they had at Stalingrad. The real battle begins with their counter attack.
3. Now that we have decided to attack we must keep speed. If we slow down the Russians will build fortifications out of nothing. They are masters in this art. And they will fill their lines with reinforcements. We might never be able to move again.
4. From 1 to 3 it is good to make the attack as far as possible in the east.
5. The Russians seem to be surprised still. I guess they wonder why we do not attack from the north. Hope they hesitate too long.
6. Air power is crucial for this battle. Red Air Force is strong now. Maybe the best ground support air force in the world. We have to eliminate them or we will loose. Up to now we used our air force for combat support only. We have to refocus. Fighting the Soviet planes over the battle field is like killing ants one by one. We should take all of our planes for a massive strike against the Soviet air fields. After that we should have one third of our fighters to cover the battle fields and one third of our tactical bombers to support the troops. The rest of our fighters should be free hunting behind the lines. If they are not engaged they will attack convoys and give us more information about what is going on behind the lines. The rest of our tactical bombers as well as all of our level bomber shall attack behind the lines: depots, esp. fuel depots, convoys, railway stations, artillery, headquarters … . On the long run this will be better than direct support on the battle field. Once the counter strike began we can focus our air force on the battle field again. You know the best way to stop a Soviet tank corps is to find the supply convoy and destroy it. Then the Stukas and ground forces can do the rest.
7. Be prepared for the counter strike. Bring enough PAK with you. Have a strong strategic reserve.
8. If only there will be no more rain ~:eek:
Today we know what Manstein did not know: The British intelligence knew about the German plans and Hitler’s orders. Churchill gave this information to Stalin. In our scenario we did not follow Hitler’s order’s. So the Russians were taken by surprise. If this battle will become a disaster for the Soviets Stalin will blame Churchill. He will never trust him again. ~:cool:
Kraxis, hope you do not mind my comments. Your story is brilliant, like usually. You should do that for money. With me as test person of course ~;)
Here are some maps. Best I could find!
http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/eastfront2/index.htm
Not at all, and quite cleverly deducted. It has indeed figured in my throughts that Lucy has given Stalin info. But by making it a personal battle it has caught them off guard. But Stalin didn't know it was British Intelligence it was kept a secret from him (for the very reason you state as well as the Germans shouldn't know it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
I should point out that this Kursk is not like the original one.
We attacked more than two and half months early, so te Russian defences were nothing like the ones that stopped the Germans. Also the Russians haven't had time to pull units together or reinforce others.
We can't control the airpower directly most of the time, it is under the control of Dessloch, and he is unlike von Richthofen not one for close cooperation. He will of course do things you ask, like yesterday, but don't expect any real control.
But the Russians do have substantial reinforcements ready, though not as substantial as originally (the entire Steppe Front at almost full strength), and they haven't been played yet, but you can expect them to come soon as the road is almost open.
Btw, good maps. They should make it a little easier to understand what is going on.
I do not want to control the air power. They should be able to operate more or less independantly and flexible. But I think we should fix the strategy. And my proposal is:
1. Kill the Red Air Force
2. Attack the area behind the lines
3. Support the fighting dividions to stop the counterstrike.
Shifting the Sands
The days fighting has been heavy, very heavy, and on top of that both Das Reich and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp have been in the thick of the action since the first hours of the fighting. They need a rest.
"Hermann, let Das Reich sit still for a while, they need to rest. That way they can act as a bulwark against any attacks from 31st Tank Corps. Also put the Kampfgruppe into tactical reserve behind Das Reich, it could be that their heavy tanks are needed if 31st attacks."
The two of you discuss further what should be done tomorrow, and you end up with a general advance towards the northeast, hopefully capturing the divisions at the old front when Kempf finally attacks. Totenkopf and GD will also conduct local attacks to gain better positions for the softer divisions behind them. Then move up to the point near Das Reich, creating a most formidable position for further major attacks.
So far your tanklosses have been rather substantial, but your good mechanics are doing a good job and have been able to keep the numbers of tanks pretty much even since the first disasterous assault.
The air attacks from the Russians started out confused and disorganized, but yesterday they were well coordinated, but they concentrated their forces in the same places as you did, so their attacks came to little due to their slavish adherring to orders, and not changing flightpatterns.
You lay down to rest for a few hours, and as you dose off you hope the following day will be less intensive so you can rest some.
Your sleep is deep and strong, your dreams are vivid. One dream has you standing on a hill yelling to the hundreds of tanks below to charge, from a ridge on the other side hundreds of Russian tanks appear and a brutal battle ensues. You are instantly trnasported into the thick of it, like a ghost, you see men get gunned down climbing out of their strikken tanks, others run around as human torches... You are disgusted by the carnage, you try to scream but nothing comes of it.
With a jolt you are awoken. You aide stands over you, his face concerned.
"Herr Field Marshall, there is an important visitor." Who the hell can that be? I'm pretty much the most important person for thousands of kilometers.
You get up and move out into the noisy and lively headquarters, a short look at the operational clock tells you it is half past 5 in the morning. Hoth is already up does he ever sleep? He is standing by a man sitting in a chair. The man is short and burly built, with a round face, but you can't see it properly due to it being heavily bandaged. As you get closer you can see that both his legs and his left arm are splinted. He is obviously quite wounded. You can hear russian being spoken.
You get up to Hoth who smiles at you. "Who is he?"
"Oh, I forgot to mention it to your aide. This is Nikolai Vatutin."
"Are you kidding me??? A Soviet Marshall?"
"It is him..." Right then you can recognize him, the bandages did a good job of protecting his features.
"Well, what about him?"
"Apparently a section of JG 52 intercepted his transport and forced it to crash behind out lines, the kill was claimed by Oberleutnant Walter Krupinski, the leading ace of the offensive.
So far I have understood that he was leading the attack on Das Reich himself, and that he was about to unleash the most powerful attack yet, he expects that it would have blown through out forces. The attack by LAH really surprised him, he didn't expect it to move that fast."
"Heh... The entire Voronezh Front is without leadership. Impressive."
"Even better, his political commisar and deputy commander, a certain Nikita Khrushchev, was killed in the crash along with the rest of his staff."
"So has he said anything important?"
"No... Sadly he is a bit dased and not in a state to be put under interrogation."
"Hmmm... Hide him away for the moment. Make sure he gets food and drink, I want him to get better so we can get some info from him."
The two MPs at his sides lift the wretched man up and drag him into a backroom at the wave of Hoth's hand.
An oderly comes running. In his hand is a report from Model, it reads:
"Attack started. Resistance heavy. Losses heavy but advance sure. Expect to take Maloarkhangelsk in hours and Ponyri by night. Soviet armour is not to be seen. Be careful."
At the same time Kempf calls and imforms that his attack has started near Belgorod up along the Donets. The Russian forces are breaking up there and he is expecting a rapid advance.
You realize that you can't wait with your own attack of the day, any longer and send 11th Panzer on its cross attack, while LAH gets it's orders to attack as soon as possible. You deside that neither Totenkopf or GD should attack but instead move up at once while 3rd Panzer and 255th should take over.
Throughout the morning you keep in contact with both Model and Kempf. Model reports good progress though with heavy losses. He feels that he can afford it as he has used his infantry divisions for the initial attacks. Kempf is advancing slower than he expected in his first optimistic due to heavy rains, but at least the enemy resistance is far weaker than expected.
The heavy rains are also affecting your troops, and LAH is having a hard time driving through the remains of 5th GT Corps. Their use of hastily prepared positions is formidable, though in general rather futile.
The rains have also kept the attackplanes grounded in the south, this is both a blessing and a curse. No help for your attacking forces but also there is not interdictions or direct attacks on them. You do hear of violent dogfights above the rather low clouds, so for them it is anoter tough day.
Since the day is quite low on intensity for you, you feel you can let Hoth manage on his own. You enter the room in which Vatutin is held, now is the time for interrogation. You feel that your position might have an impact on him. He certainly looks far more clear in the eyes as he stares at you. He looks with a certain arrogance and admiration at you, but you think you can see fear as well when he notices the two SS MPs.
How are you going to aproach him?
1) Play on your hunch that he is a military man above all, one who can relate to other soldiers. Talk to him about previous deeds and various maneuvers. Ask him how he would have done things. In general talk to him as an old comrade in arms, maybe you can gently get soem info out of him.
2) Play good cop/bad cop. You are good and the MPs bad. Play on his fears. His rather burly built, a little too vide around the waist suggests that he is uncommon to pain. Perhaps removing a splint might convince him to talk.
3) Offer him goods, land and the leading position of the Russian Liberation Army. Bribe him. Again his seemingly gentle lifestyle might affect him greatly. Talk also of how Stalin is his worst enemy (look at the purges).
4) Attack his selfconfidence. Tell him how easy it was to defeat him, and how many mistakes he made, especially the one that got him caught. Show great contempt for him. If he is a proud man he might break up, but if he lacks the intiative of German officers he might not be so succeptive.
Hooray, the story is going on.
4 of course.
1) Play on your hunch that he is a military man above all, one who can relate to other soldiers. Talk to him about previous deeds and various maneuvers. Ask him how he would have done things. In general talk to him as an old comrade in arms, maybe you can gently get soem info out of him.Might work. But he has just been caught and I doubt that he is in the mood for some small talk.
2) Play good cop/bad cop. You are good and the MPs bad. Play on his fears. His rather burly built, a little too vide around the waist suggests that he is uncommon to pain. Perhaps removing a splint might convince him to talk.Never. First it won't work. 2nd, you are a Prussian General.
3) Offer him goods, land and the leading position of the Russian Liberation Army. Bribe him. Again his seemingly gentle lifestyle might affect him greatly. Talk also of how Stalin is his worst enemy (look at the purges).
This is absurd. Meanwhile every Soviet soldier believes in a final victory. You have nothing to offer. Things would be different if you knew that Stalin had send his familiy to Sibiria.
4) Attack his selfconfidence. Tell him how easy it was to defeat him, and how many mistakes he made, especially the one that got him caught. Show great contempt for him. If he is a proud man he might break up, but if he lacks the intiative of German officers he might not be so succeptive.
This will work. Generals are idle. Together with the hate against Germans he will talk. Good luck.
Kraxis, what is the wheather forecast?
Could you please call Wolfsschanze. We must have the control of all forces that belong to the attack: the northern group as well as the Luftwaffe.
4. After all he is just a Russian commander that got captured and needs to be taught a lesson while getting all the information out of him...
Nikita's dead! Even if you do loose, you've still had a huge impact on history. Congradulations!
Hmm, definetly not 3. I doubt one will work. You're not an old comrade in arms. 2 I don't know. Looks can be decieving, and that plane crash probably hurt a lot more than anything you can do. I guess go with four.
Not only attack the Russian's self confidence, but also lie to him, tell him that Stalin made him bait, to draw off the Germans while the Russians gathered more mobile forces for a counterattack. Making him lose his trust in Stalin would make him talk more easily.
Well, it wouldn't be smalltalk at all. It would have been a case where you would come in a play the generous host (getting rid of the MPs and getting food and drink), then sit down and tell him how impressed you have always been of his skills. You know, show him respect. To an extent the opposite of #4. But it is settled now, so don't go about changing your minds. ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Btw, there is no chance that Hitler will grant you complete control, especially not with Jodl, Keitel and not the least von Kluge (he is your friend but you have antagonized him earlier and this would be too much for him) fighting against you. Besides it woud likely be too much for you to handle.
An option could be made, but the character does have a bit of common sense inherently.
The weather is currently bad with heavy rain. The wind in weak so the rain is not liekly to go away soon. At least the rest of the day and night is rainy (so far the weather have been very very good for the Rasputitsa season).
The Russian Connection
You take comfort in Vatutin's look of admiration at you, this should aide you greatly. You look at the two guards, then back at the Russian. You are sure, he is indeed afraid of them, and like dogs they have sensed it too. Their eyes gleam with anticipation. You are quite happy that you can't read their minds. Their posture and Vatutin's obvious fear of them would have a hugely negative impact on your talks here, his whole attention should be on you. You raise your marshall's baton and sweep it round towards the door with a short, sharp and icy cold "Leave us!". The two guards are surprised by this, and you think you hear a muted moan.
The fear in the eyes of Vatutin vanishes but in its stead you can see a concerned distrust.
You start out simply, as much for yourself as for him as the translater has yet to arrive, "Nikolai Vatutin... I had expected more from you."
To your pleasant surprise he answers you in broken German. "Well, events conspired against me..."
This could really help you, it is much easier to convey the true meanings and subleties when there is no need for translators. You also sense that he is slightly anoyed about what you said, his tone was one of defence. You decide that it is a weakness you should exploit.
"Events? You are an experienced commander, you know full and well that events don't just happen, you had a major influence in each and every one."
The Russian is taken aback. "But I could not have done anything about the trafficjam of 6th Guards Army."
You shake your head in disbelief. "Of course you could! You should know that motorized collumns are going to disorganize each other when they meet."
Vatutin is getting confused... "No... But... I can't be in the deep of what all my juniors are doing."
"You chose them, didn't you?! Or at least you could have replaced them with better men?!?!"
"They were perfectly good men."
You bark out a laugh. "Perfectly good men do not bungle up like that! They lost you the artillery of an entire Army, in the most important sector of the front, in either needless losses or confusion. If that is not incompetence I don't know."
He sighs. "Yes, that was indeed a major failure."
"What about your own little offensive against us? How did that go? Two strong Corps basically destroyed... And you yourself, a senior Frontcommander, you are now a prisoner due to your own incompetence."
"Wait a moment, I could have won! I know it."
"You know what?!? I can tell you that you played directly into my plans. You Russians are so damn predictable, you have yet to surprise me with anything."
"But we were about to crush Das Reich."
"To what end? Liebstandarte was on its way to cut you off, and you KNEW it. Yet you did nothing to halt it, you just increased your attacks in the forlorn hope that you could reach safety with 3rd Mechanized, which you also expended needlessly. Against a force of two battalions!"
"I had orders to halt you at any cost."
"Well that is obvious... You threw away basically two entire armies for no gain at all, fool! There was no chance that you could have halted us. And I'll let you in on a little secret, Zhukov knew it, Stalin knew it, damn even we knew it. You were hung out to dry by your very own leadership. That is how much confidence they had in you. 'Yes, let the Germans tire themselves against expendable forces. Who can we spare?' It is not hard to imagine Stavka like that only a month ago."
Vatutin remains silent, but his confidence is shaken.
"Even now we are heading deep into the hinterland. We are already brushing aside 2nd Guards Tanks Corps, hardly worth the fight as they have done nothing important. Your commander of 1st Tank Army is holding back his last remaining forces out of fear of annihilation. The plains behind Oboyan awaits us... Easily!"
Vatutin smiles. "I doubt that. We are stronger than you think. You have underestimated us the entire war, but we have not done the same."
"Underestimated?!?! Hardly! Whenever we have met face to face there has been but one result. Our victory."
"Not this time."
"Is that so... I'm afraid I can't see that. There is nothing between us and victory. Your friends will fail, just like you."
"The Teacher will teach you!" The word rings a bell... The Teacher... Where have I heard that before...
"If he has taught you, then I sincerely doubt it, for that was a lousy job." Your mind races for the clue to The Teacher.
"Haha... Not at all! He is younger than me."
"Makes no difference as there are no forces to stop us, and even one who is vastly better than you is no match for me."
"Never underestimate the ability of the steppe to generate forces." The steppe? Interesting...
"The steppe is vast and empty. The perfect playing ground for my panzers. Let them come. When fools like you are in charge..."
Vatutin angered and hurt, explodes. "You call me a FOOL?! YOU are the fool! You can't see anything beyond your big nose, so you think it isn't there, but we are masters of maskirovka (deception), while you are masters of blindness!!!"
"My dear Nikolai, that is not quite the case." You say with a confident smile, trying feverishly to cover your exitement. You have pieced it together.
You leave Vatutin, but let him drown his feelings in vodka. 'The Teacher' was the name a few captured soldiers had called the diminutive and spectacles equipped Marshall Rotmistrov when they had been interrogated, only a few months earlier. You know that he is usually associated with tanks and Guards. At the same time you have heard passing references to 'The Steppe' in intercepted communiques. It has so far been assumed that it was a reference to Siberia (as people, even entire units were sent to it and never heard of again). Now you are certain that it is a unit, a very large unit of armoured Guard forces, hidden by deception, led by the capable and coolheaded Rotmistrov.
For the rest of the day you follow the ongoing campaign. But the intencity is low and the battles small. By nightfall 11th Panzer and 3rd Panzer Corps have managed to capture the two weak divisions, 31st and 39th Rifle, but both 52nd GR and 375th Rifle managed to escape as they were closer to the opening. An abortive attempt by 2nd GT Corps to keep the hole open failed miserably as their tanks got struck in the mud on the Donets' riverbanks.
The line is now extending from Belgorod inwards along the Donets to a few miles short of Prokhorovka, where the line makes a protusion of LAH almost to the village itself, folloed down the line by GD, Totenkopf and Das Reich, ending with 3rd Panzer and 255th Infantry nearest Butovo. 332nd and 167th Infantry both occupy positions inside the bulge. Kampfgruppe Heidekamp has recieved a wellearned rest, and several tanks have returned, especially the fickle Panthers.
The weather is expected to be more rain tomorrow, but less intensive, but a period of a few hours during the night should be fairly dry. But once more the airforces should be contained. Their lack of support has cost you unpleasant losses among the infantry today, but he lack of Russian airattacks have kept the losses among the tanks low as few tanks have opposed your advance and the AT-guns have been scattered and few.
Model's advance has been substantial, but despite rapid gains intially he fell short of his objectives as local reserves were thrown against him. Typically of the foulmouthed general he said to you: "The bast*rds kept throwing sh*t at me." If it hadn't been such a serious issue you would have laughed, no wonder the man is Hitler's favourite, he talks like a grunt.
He did manage to take both Ponyri and Meloarkhangelsk, but Olkhovatka and the ring of hills remained out of his grasp. He expects that if the weather will it, he will take it all tomorrow. In his mind really bad rains will only help him as his infantry will then be able to advance unseen and free of artilleryintervention. And rains does seem to be on their way as the wind is carrying the heavy rains up from the south.
You spend an hour with Hoth talking about 'The Steppe' and it's possible impact on your advance. While you think it is a major problem, Hoth is very unconcerned, he argues that it would take days before any important formation could be ready to attack, and in that time it would be spotted. You on the other hand fear that it might be right in your path, and thus have no need for redeployment, in fact, to the north-northeast you can see a major patch of empty space where no known Russian formations linger. Hoth then argues that you have the momentum against a formation that was itself preparing to attack. To your great pleasure the famous Kurt Student had arrived to interrogate Vatutin further (while a paratrooper he is also a keen intellect on intelligence), and he joined the two of you in the discussions. His idea is born out of his rather special workplace. He advises a nightattack to actually find out what there might be in front of you.
So what will it be?
1) Once more listen to Hoth, and let the attack carry on in a northeasterly direction, past Prokhorovka and onto the big flat plains with few trees and woods. There is hardly any opposition to you besides 2nd GT, but you risk being blunted badly if 'The Steppe' is right in front of you.
2) Launch a general attack towards the north. Your troops are now in place, and you have 3rd Panzer Corps guarding your flank. This is what you have aimed for the previous days. There is no chance the forces arrayed against you can hold you back (31st Tank, remains of 3rd Mech and 5th GT as well as the two lucky breakers from today)
3) Student's idea is rather subversive. Attack with an armoured formation of captured T-34s and with a good sprinkling of Russianspeaking troops, during the clear part of the night. It should get rather far before the ruse is detected. If they detect any new and unknown force you can react to it. But it might cost you some initiative in the day.
3. followed by 2. As in: attack with the t34s tonight and launch an offensive next morning on a different sector of the front to keep the russians occupied and give your men more time.
I say 3. find out where this 'steppe' is before advancing.
Number three.The" Steppe" is the Russian reserve Armygroup,and if you dont scout their position, well You will lose this battle.If we can attract them to engage our forces now we can do the Russians same thing on a strategig level, what You did to the forces commanded by Vatutin on a tactical level.What Student is suggestin is genious.The "Steppe" is consisted of Siberian and Caucasian troops and we can masguarade our recon attack as Russians fighting against each other.The effects could be enermous.
Number Three. This "Steppe" is clearly a large army of its own and the Russian's hope to defeat you. There is no need to hurry now that the top leadership of the Russian defence is down. It'll only suffer further breakdowns before Stalin would appoint a replacement, and it'll then take time to readjust to the situation. You have plenty of time to make your move. Don't let your flank unguarded against a possible Russian counterattack by this "Steppe" because your forces pushed too far into the Steppes. ~;) Indeed, the initiative may have to be sacrificed but the slowed down place will give extra time for the soldiers to rest and the mechanics to restore the damaged tanks, thus restoring the strength of your divisions.
3. Any other option is defeat...
Ok, there's a wee little problem here.
Vatutin could be lying to you to throw you off. But still, a night attack with the captured T-34s would be a smart move, provided that you find a way to evacuate your Russian speaking soldiers. (Any night fighters with ground attack capability?)
And a question, has the 3rd PzKorps taken Belogrod yet?
Sure, let's go for number 3. I wouldn't prefer a trick at this point, but I don't care for the other options.
:wall: Why wait? Give the Russians time to dig and bad weather - that is all they need to stop a German attack. We broke their lines. Now push. Once we move we can destroy any Soviet formation. A little recon would be enough.
Kraxis, I would tell this foolish General that he betrayed the secrets you did not know. And tell him that Stalin willget this information when the battle is done. I am sure he will co-operate and give you more details. :disguise:
Cloak and Dagger
Both you and Hoth look at Student with surprise... For a few seconds silence hangs in the air, then Hoth smiles and you blurt out, "my dear Kurt, that is brilliant!"
The three of you quickly organize the troops and tanks needed, but it will take hours before they can be concentrated at the point of LAH. A lot of Russian Hiwis (volounteers) and troops of the Liberation Army are put into the unit, about the size of a reinforced battalion, along with Russianspeaking Germans. But the core of the unit is still purely German.
For hours T-34s cross your front from their various commands to the new one, but at 1 o'clock you don't dare wait any longer, despite the fact that only the equivalent of two reinforced companies have arrived. You send Student to take charge, he of course tries to argue against it, but his subversive skills and his experience with paratroopers is vital to the success, with him he has a panzer advisor in case decisive action needs to be taken.
The Russian troops simply let the formation through as it speeds towards the northeast, they take a few prisoners here and there but nothing important can be learned from them.
At Prokhorovka they capture the railwaystation attendant, for the moment he just says that he only know 'the Steppe' outside his windows.
As the unit advances it is more and more engaged in small scale fighting with MPs and various inquisitory units, but to their great relief no coordinated effort has been made and it seems they are still unknown to the enemy.
At 3:30, nearing the edge of the big empty space, Student and his men encounters a fairly large tank collumn, as they pass each other, the leading German T-34 breaks down. The other collumn drives on as several crews feverishly labours to get the tank working again, but suddenly a Russian mechanics truck halts and offers help. A few Hiwis try to shoo them away, but they want to talk to the crews and small scuffle breaks out, and before long a number of MPs arrive with unpleasant questions asked. Time is up. Student having paid careful attention to the action up front orders the troops to open fire over his radio. Surprised Russians flee to all sides but are gunned down, their tanks are blown apart at the short range, their trucks set afire and a number of are captured.
The glow of the fires clearly illuminates the crosses on the tanks, instead of red stars. The broken down T-34 is pushed aside and the formation speeds on. In a village the report of Germans within their lines (and the nearby action of tanks) causes significant panic and when the Hiwis claim that the Germans are everywhere the Russians simply flee their positions.
At sunrise the formation is deep inside the empty space, but there is nothing there. The civilians claim that only once in a while does soldiers come by, usually mounted on horses, seldomly in armoured cars. It is clear that there indeed isn't anything here. Student prudently orders his troops to move into a nearby little grove and hide, low on fuel and deep inside enemy territory he would have no chance if found.
You feel that you need to save Student and the LAH, reinforced by numerous T-34s is orderedto join up with him, 3 Panzer Corps will guard the flank and GD will fly north into 52nd GR and 375th Rifle divisions, while Totenkopf will try to keep 31st Tank Corps occupied.
Resistance to LAH is confused and several positions are abandoned or is in a hedgehog state. Student and his men have greatly undermined the Russian morale in the sector. Before long Prokhorovka is taken.
GD makes great headway against the two disjoined divisions, the last complete remnants of 6th Guards Army. The lack of fortifications and most of their heavy gear takes a great toll on them, but again they fight with a determination like never before. Losses among the infantry is significant.
The resistance to 3rd Panzer Corps from the unconfused parts of 2nd GT Corps is very fierce and they make little headway along the Donets. Kempf calls off his attacks as he was supposed to guard the flank of your advance, not create it, or become too weak to protect it.
By late afternoon, the rains intensify once again, making further advance slow and costly. You call off the attacks. Today a few sorties were made by both airforces, but were rather limited to very small tactical instances. The lull has given the airmen wellearned restperiods and the effectiveness of the few attacks were quite visible. But the Russian attacks on your rear areas has caused you some concern. Most of your mobile AA is among the tanks up front to cover them, but that has left your rear areas woefully low on air protection. Today the attacks were few and scattered, and easily dealt with by the fighters and few guns. But tomorrow with the coming broken overcast, you can expect a lot more air attacks. This concerns you.
GD made it across the Psel some 5 miles east of Oboyan, on its advance it pushed into the link between 52nd GR and 375th Rifle, sending the latter all the way to the Donets (as it was also pushed out of the way by LAH).
In typical SS manner did Totenkpf advance into the area belonging to the remains of 3rd Mech, advancing steadily on GD's side. Now it is just 4 miles from Oboyan, while 3rd Panzer Division has covered its flanks from attacks from 31st Tank Corps. The day saw the Russian defenders strongly defend their positions, but they were very uncorordinated and lacked a response to breakthroughs. Obviously the capture of Vatutin and the loss of his entire staff is having an effect now.
In reserve you have no less than 11th Panzer (relatively fresh), 332nd Infantry (relatively fresh but lacking equipmen and men) and the 167th Infantry (quite fresh).
LAH didn't make to Student, who has occupied the nearby village to have a strongly defended position in case the Russians come by with strong forces. But a unique situation has presented itself to LAH. The aborted assault by 3rd Panzer Corps left the 2nd GT Corps on the western side of the Donets, while LAH has driven parallel with it. Inside this unclosed bag is of course 2nd GT Corps, but also 375th Rifle and 96th GR Division. To close the bag LAH only needs to attack to the river as there is no bridges inside it. But Student is still alone and he is quite anxious for the men a they are not used to this kind of situation.
You are drawn in several directions for the coming events.
A: Operational directive
1) Orders for the morning: Ignore 2nd GT Corps, let 3rd Panzer Corps deal with it, it is Kempf's job now that LAH is getting ahead. LAH is to try to join up with Student still. The other formations are to to on the offensive directly. Browbeat the Russians!
2) Continue to attack through the night with LAH towards the Donets to cloes the bag on the 2nd GT Corps and its consorts. Let 11h Panzer take point the next day as LAH reduces the pocket and gets reorganized.
3) Try the same but instead let the LAH resume the attack while the two Infantry divisions in the reseve deals with the pocket.
B: AA considerations
1) Let it be as it is. The Russians only attacked the static guns because they are easier to hit in bad weather.
2) Move a majority of the AA back to cover the softer units and the roads. The Russians are obviously interested in blunting you where they can hit you the easiest.
3) Even it out. Neither place should get priority. Danger is obvious everywhere, and you should try to meet it all.
It is given that Dessloch's fighters will try to cover the weak part, but they might not be able to because of their jobs at protecting airfields and the bombers.
A. 3 and B.1.
I believe we need to reduce that pocket, but at the same time we need to get to Student. So three is the best choice for that matter.... ~;)
Again when it comes to AA, the importance is to not allow them to concentrate on your fighting forces. ~:)
A.3 and B.3. You need to use all of your forces and keep the armoury mobile. And the air threat needs to be addressed at all points...
3 / 3
Now we have to pay the price for not having attacked the Soviet airbases so far. We have to do it at once!
Kraxis, what the hell is Kluges group doing?
A.3 put the infantry into work they now best.B.3.Where is your Armygroups artillery?Is it far behind,because if they are in supporting range their own AA should cover your forces.
3 and 3. I'd like to send some supplies to to 332. Division, though...well, there'll be time for that after those Russian forces are crushed.
A ruse well played so far.
A few pointers:
von Kluge is the one in command of Model's forces, but unlike you he lets Model play it alone. He has after all a very long front that is anything but secure. You have the stronger forces so you can more safely expect a general stagnant front elsewhere. So he won't actively do anything unless Model manages to get himself into stuff he couldn't get out of again. That is highly unlikely.
The heavy artillery has been evened out a bit, but the day has seen substantial advances, so it has been left behind. It should though get into position during the night (yup, the artillerymen doesn't sleep, shoot at day and move at night). In any case we are talking about the mobile artillery, mostly 20mm, 37mm, a few 40mm, captured Russian 25mm and some dual HMGs such as 13mm and 15mm. There are of course 88s but even these lack the range to cover the frontroops properly (at extreme ranges they will be hard pressed to hit anything the size of Russian close air support planes).
The airforces have not neglected to hit Russian airfields, but the Russians are masters of maskirovka, deception. Many false fields abound in the Russian hinterland. Besides the numbers involved have been problematic. Your own forces are too few to hit the fields properly, while the Russians for once have been spread out rather thinly themselves, so finding them have not been easy (until they begin to near the front).
Obviously Dessloch have concentrated on your forces' pleas for cover and support, the easy and logical approach.
You have no supplies unused to send 332nd per se. It will have to wait until the offensive is over. Also any daily reinforcements will of course go to the main units. The infantry is not likely to get much right now.
Thanks for the info Kraxis. I cant wait to see what happends next.Great Thread. :bow:
I'd actually go with A1. As tempting as that pocket is, if we let something bad happen to Student, then we might have trouble getting clever officers to suggest and lead risky maneuvers in the future. We have to take care of our talented men. Kempf can handle the bag until we have more units on hand that can help him finish it off.
For B, #3 looks good. I don't like the thought of leaving either end of the army exposed.
Advance and Reverse
The attacks on the artillery during the day troubles you... Greatly. Again Hoth is there to offer his opinion, he thinks that it was just because of the weather, and you are inclined to believe him. But what if he is wrong, what if you are wrong, this could turn out very sourly. Against you own gutfeeling you give the order to transfer a lot of the mobile AA back to the rear areas.
Though Hoth was dismayed by that fact he gets a bit more optimistic when you order that the LAH should continue its advance through the night towards the Donets where it will cut off the strong 2nd GT Corps and the two independant divisions. This is action by his tastes.
As the two of you talk, you mention that you want LAH to keep up the attack in the morning and let the two infantry divisions along with 3rd Panzer Corps deal with the pocket. "The Leibstandarte is simply too good to leave behind."
"Agreed, but Erich isn't it going too far? We run a risk of confusion when it leaves while the infanty arrives."
"Yes, that is a serious risk, but as with everything else we have to take chances. You are normally in favour of odd chances."
"Quite right" Hoth says sipping on a glass of cognac. "But I do prefer my chances to be taken when no other options are ready. 11th Panzer?"
"They have figured heavily in my mind, but they aren't as sharp as our prime SS division. A good reserve."
In a short while LAH manages to reach the Donets, pushing into the pocket the now exhausted 375th Rifle Division. While the 2nd GT Corps tries several attempts at breaking up north through LAH, 332nd and 167th move up. 332nd taking the much easier part due west of the bulge while 167th taking up positions at the north.
Thus in the small hours LAH finally begin to move out as the first infantry arrives to take over. In the beginning it all goes well, but soon the two divisions overwhelm the poor roads and long lines of trucks, tanks and artillery gets tuck as one unit tries to get out while the other tries to get in through the same venue.
You are blissfully unaware of this until you ask Hoth when LAH is ready to assume its advance to get to Student. While you reform the supplies of ammo and fuel, he contacts Theodor Wisch, commander of LAH. You only hear the early conversation with half an ear, until Hoth yells "WHAT?!?!? What is going on?!?! Theo, this can't go on!" You grab the phone from Hoth. "Theo, tell me what is going on."
The flustering voice of a man near panic answers you. "My boys are totally locked in place, we can't get anywhere. Those damn 167th troops are clogging the road."
"Give me Meyer!!!"
The competent and strong voice of Kurt Meyer announces the arrival of his strong persona. "Meyer, dismount all infantry, move cross country in line. The tanks should follow you soon afterwards, hopefully this will open up the road enough for some sort of movement. And for the sake of all good, deploy whatever AA you have left."
"Yes, Field Marshall! But we haven't got that much left. Most went away last night and most of what remained was the first out. They are almost clear of 167th."
"What on Earth were the two of you doing?!?!? Why didn't you contact us?!?! We could have gotten in contact with Wolf (Trirenberg, of 167th)."
"Sorry, we were trying ourselves, and of course trying to get this done in a hurry. It didn't seem that bad, but it only got worse all the time."
With a growl you finish. "Well, just get it done... NOW!"
You quickly contact Wolf Trirenberg of 167th and give him an oral beating for his carelessness, then you give him orders of what to do as well, especially regarding the AA.
Then you contact Dessloch, and demand a strong defence of the area, but to your dismay he can't supply you with much as most fighters are tied down escorting bombers going for deep interdiction and rail attacks. But he does call off a few fighter sweeps of various airfields.
Finally you into comtact with Wend von Wietersheim of 11th Panzer and orders him to attack where LAH was supposed to have gone.
This situation gives you the creeps. It is almost the exact duplicate of the Russian situation that sparked the entire offensive, and when the Russians find out... You hit the big map on the operational table. Damn... I risk losing a whole lot here. Why did I send the AA to the rear?! There will be no breakfast this morning.
The sun slowly begins to send rays across the Russian steppes, another day of bloody battles await. But first the morning sorties have to be carried out. Since the sky is dotted with clouds, but none dense enough for rain or close enough to each other to impair visibility, it is perfect weather for ground attacks. Furious attacks on 3rd Panzer Corps and GD inflicts losses, while a few other places are hit, including the big jam.
Within the hour waves of Russian planes arrive. The two staffeln of JG52 put up a wall of destruction, but the numbers are them too much, and many Russian bombers and ground attack planes get free. The fair amount of AA fire does little to stem the tide, numbers were needed to cover this. Death and destruction moves up and down the road. Tanks, halftracks, movers, trucks, cars and all kinds of other vehicles and equipment is destroyed of damaged.
For several hours this carries on, until finally the fightercover returns in force to drive the Russians away.
Losses are immense. Most of LAHs support units have been severely mauled, in fact all the field hospitals have been destroyed and the mechanic shops are wrecked. Losses among the tanks are lower, but Sturmoviks hunted them down in the surrounding fields and plumes of smoke mark the site of each dead tank. Only the infantry managed to get through this relatively unscathed, hiding away from the vehicles they were not very visible, and their own weapons did fairly well at putting up some ad hoc AA fire.
The 167th suffered much the same, but being an infantry division it was less serious, though its artillery was very hard hit.
For all effects LAH has been reduced to two SS infantry regiments with some vehicular support. Trying to make up for his percieved failure Wisch went into the midst of the chaos, and began close-in redirections of vehicles. In the first attack he was injured and is now on his way to the army field hospital. Josef "Sepp" Dietrich has taken over command of the remnants.
As the event unfold you can only sit back and shake your head while Hoth runs around controlling the advance of the other units. This was not how you had hoped the day would start, with the destruction of one of your best units. At least the artillery to the rear was safe. The few attacks on your rear was indeed blasted from the skies by the new concentration of AA. Meanwhile the advancing units suffer continual attacks fom the air. But the Russian losses in the air have been very high. The two JG52 staffeln of some 26 planes was credited with no less than 131 kills for only 6 losses. On this very day Erich Hartmann has brought up his kills for the offensive to a massive 22, while Walter Krupinski still leads with 28 kills. Sadly most of these were escorting fighters.
You pull out LAH and put it into reserve, its infantry should come in handy later on.
The other units advance fast and hard, GD is soon far beyond Oboyan heading for the railroad towards Kursk. 11th Panzer is abit slower because of its recent change of plans, but it too drives hard at the enemy. At about noon, advance elements of it accidentally get into a firefight with Student's detachment, advancing on them (to link up and perhaps catch Russian forces in the rear), because of the quite Russian look of the unit. But soon Student is on his way to your HQ with his prisoners and info.
Totenkopf encircles Oboyan itself while 3rd Panzer manages to keep its place at the flank. For some reason 31st Tank Corps fell back before Totenkopf's attacks. Possibly because of the great interference made by the airforce. It seems it is in fact running out of supplies, but nothing is certain.
The breakthrough has been achieved, and the remnants of both 5th GT Corps and 3rd Mech Corps melted away on this day. Most fleeing to fates unknown, but significant numbers surrendering.
Late in the evening the report from Kempf and the infantry divisions informs you that 2nd GT Corps shouldn't bother you anymore. During the day the entire force tried to cross the river on barges, boats and even swimming. It was slaughter as 3rd Panzer Corps drove up the bank. In the end it captured more than 100 tanks and 20,000 troops.
During the day you order the AA back to its original positions. You realize thatthe Russians might like to destroy the soft belly, but right now they are far too scared about the sharp claws.
Model reports that his troops has advanced well today, but that several reserve formations have headed him off. Also, this have meant that he hasn't been able to encircle any significant enemy formations. Also on this day he finally brought his panzers into action, but the reserves blunted their attacks greatly. Model expects that he will need some time to deal with this.
While talking to Student about everything more or less, an orderly arrives with a manifest, apparently captured at the Prokhorovka train station by Student's men. In it is the list of arrivals for and entire week. What is interesting is the notes for tomorrow. There was supposed to have been an arrival of several very large trains with tanks, infantry and supplies. Several hundred armoured vehicles in all. Of course they won't land there now, but it will come off further east. You believe it is 'the Steppe', finally found, now that the big empty space, was indeed empty. Hoth agrees to an extent, but is less affected by it.
What are you going to do?
1) Now that the most important obstruction to the east has been cleared away, attack with Kempf's forces to the east to head off the enemy reserves obviously on their way (or already here). Support with the two infantry divisions.
2) Send Kempf's forces on a headlong attack north alongside 11th Panzer, while LAH, Kampfgruppe Heidekamp (well rested and mostly back up to strength) and the two infantry divisions take up protective positions towards the east
3) Halt 11th Panzer and GD, have Totenkopf clear its rear, and in general turn to face the new threat. It is strong, it is big and it will hit hard to save Kursk.
4) Ignore the new enemy force. It is far too big to be able to get into action properly for days. By that time you should be able to respond to it.
3
Threats of this magnitute should be given high priority.
1. The Steppe seems like it only just arrived. It shold stil be rather disorganized by the transit. Hit for it hard, hit for it now, before they are ready to fight.
I almost cired when I read about he traffic jam(well sort of....). Terrible. But at least it was an SS unit.
3.) The Steppe has probably been here for days, weeks perhaps. It needs to be given our full priority.
That and try to patch up, rest and re-form some of LAHs units. LAH is a very good, solid formation, with plenty of experienced tankers and infantry still alive. The replacement of lost equipment, esp. tanks, should make LAH good again.
Meanwhile, bring Das Reich back up out of reserve duty, and task them with flanking The Steppe.
Btw, what is the strength of the 3rd PzKorps?
Still, they still seem to be getting their stuff into position. Surely some portion of it are still disorganized by transit? Attack it now, before the entire force is ready to fight.
Wow. After rereading it I think that the better part of the force(several hundred armored vehicles? how many are armored cars? how many tanks?) was suppose to come in the next day. attack to the east, they wil be very disorganized from the unloading
1, avenge the SS even though they deserve to die. The possible benefits greatly outweigh the risks of a bold attack.
Hmm...where is Das Reich and how is it doing?
Anyway, I must, with risk, choose choice 1. The traffic jam was a major setback, but the "Steppe" would overwhelm us if we do not take the initiative at attack them before they're in place. At least that will buy us some valuable time for reinforcements and maneuvering. LAH suffered a lot, though. Don't let it take the spearhead; not alone, at least. Oh, and make sure the artillery will be able to support the divisions quickly in case of encounter with the Russian "Steppe," and not somewhere far behind the line.
Indeed, the Russians might not expect us to be so bold and aggressive after the incident today. They could be taken by surprise.
Sorry to jump in the middle, but I just found this thread.
Go with option 1. Even if a large portion of The Steppe has deployed, it is preparing for a counterattack, and its commanders do not expect to be thrown on the defensive, especially after the success against a major attacking force.
Try to imgaine, if you will, what wouls have happened at Herbestnebel, if the Allied forces had just attacked 2 days before the offensive began. The result would be complete chaos amongst even the most experienced Heer divisions; it would take days to recover, and by then the Allies would have pushed well into the line. The situation is the same here.
Then again, I operate mainly on instinct in these circumstances- and that has led to some major setbacks, when I try to simulate a situation like this.
1). This Steppe army is still a ghost.Maybe it is simply a propaganda trick. We do not know where they are, how strong they are ... . First priority is to push north. Encircle the enemy in the west. Do not care too much in killing smaler formations on your way. Once we did this we can deal with the counterattack.
Russian attack will come soon, now that we finally broke their lines. Let Kempf attack their Bereitstellungsräume. This will slow them down.
Do we have some small but fast units left, maybe recon units? They could try to take some airfields. Soviet air power is becoming a problem!
1.Keep the initiative.Kempfs troops and those infantry divisions can suprise the enemy at first,but they cant destroy it themselves.So they are your anvil and your best divisions wich are now back at strength(liebstandarte excluded,take care of them).Will be the hammer that crushes the "Steppe".
Heh... To think I almost forgot about Das Reich... I did think "hmm, something is missing". Well Das Reich is resting, so it will be available to all cases.
#1, will send it along the northern flank of 3rd Panzer Corps (to keep in contact with 11th Panzer).
#2, will have it at ready stations behind the lines, ready to react to any development, be it 31st Tank Corps or any attack from the east.
#3, logically it will be placed very close to the front towards the east to be ready to react at once. If the situation demands it, it will take its place in the line.
#4, as your forces advance they will drive away from each other. At such breakups you will insert Das Reich.
3rd Panzer Corps, consists of 6th, 7th and 19th Panzer divisions, and the 168th Infantry, though it has remained at the back, guarding Belgorod.
It is a rather strong formation, but far from as strong as your SS corps. They lack both infantry and tanks. A total of tanks would be around 210, though quite a few are obsolete. Total strength of manpower is about 33,000. But they are highly motivated and extremely confident.
Go with 1. And the Das Reich should get close to the front lines but should not engage just yet...
And also direct all reserves to the LAH. Germany needs it.
About the deployment of Das Reich,number two.There is your hammer. ~;)
I go for three. We will face a counter attack coming from the east soon. A stretigic reserve ready to stop it is what we need right now!
Wait a moment... Das Reich hasn't got its own choice here. I merely presented what it would do in each case, since I had been so bright as to leave it out of the original choices.
Kraxis.When you write a number in your post we react. ~D
Kraxis,
I lost the overview. What day do we have now?
The intial choices. Those I wrote in the last chapter.
The later numbers were just what Das Reich would do in each case.
Bulwark
The manifest from Prokhorovka is too much to dismiss for you, you realize that you have a major force on your flank, and to ignore it would be foolish. You pace the room. This is not the time to overreact, the way to Kursk is open, yet a massive force of tanks and troops are on their way it seems.
You call up Dessloch, and give him orders to begin a more thorough recon of the area along the Prokhorovka railroad. You need to know what might be out there.
Then you turn to Hoth. "We can't just drive on, however much we want to."
"You can't be serious... We are on the verge of success. We could be in Kursk tomorrow or the day after that."
"Yes, I know that, but it is a huge risk in case we get hit in the flank. Besides it will still take Model some time to resume his own advance. We can't cover the entire area ourselves, and riving on would only mean that the Russians would stream out of the bulge."
"Then at least let me attack this new force. They are bound to be disorganized."
"We don't know what we face, or where we face it. You could stumble into something you couldn't defeat."
Hoth grumbles something under his breath, but says nothing further.
"Halt the advance, turn 11th Panzer and GD to face east. Have Totenkopf clean up Oboyan and the surrounding areas. Move up 3rd Panzer and 255th Infantry to cover the western flank. Make sure LAH gets protection from 332nd and 167th Infantry. Das Reich and Kampfgruppe Heidekamp should remain near the eastern fron ready to react to any attacks. It should present a very strong front to any attackers."
When Hoth doesn't answer but does begin to contact the divisional commanders you call up Kempf and order his troops be ready to react to attacks but remain in place.
Reluctantly your spearheads turn and redeploy during the night. The troops are not very pleased that they are now about to go over to the defensive, now that they are rapidly advancing. And yet another change of setup once again disrupts the rear areas, but in time ofr the sun to rise your forces are in place.
The early recon missions deep across the area of the railroad, reports that there are indeed heavy forces arriving by rail, and it seems that they are just the last of an immense force. But so far it is not advancing on you.
You let your divisions send out strong recon elements to scout out the nearby territory. Their finds are surprising, the entire front seems to be abandoned. This gets Hoth up from his lethargy.
"We must advance!"
"And spread ourselves even thinner?"
"Are we just going to sit still today? What about tomorrow... And the next day? We are giving up our initiative!"
You don't answer him...
At least the airforces are doing better today, and the returned AA does much to impede the Russian attacks. The many attacks are far less successful than yesterday, while your own attacks hit the incoming trains and collumns at the railroad. The gun-Stukas catches a force of tanks in the open and rip them apart, leaving dosens of rising dark plumes of smoke.
You use the day to reform the lines to a more solid state. The three weakened divisions are put at the head of a point while the stronger forces guardtheir flanks, ready to swing around an advancing enemy. But you still don't know the extent of the enemy forces, what their composition is or who commands them. This bothers you, especially now that you have halted your advance.
Model reports that his advance is slow but sure, though he is suffering heavier and heavier losses, and it seems that by afternoon the Russians got more reinforcements. He is still confident that he will break through at the latests the day after tomorrow.
What will you do?
1) Stay still and await the attack. You are prepared and ready. It shouldn't be able to deeat you. Yo have even laid a plan to trap the enemy forces.
2) Make a limited advance to the north, consisting of Das Reich and Totenkopf, while the rest stays in place.
3) Have the three weakened divisions advance north while the strong forces attack towards the enemy forces in the east.
4) Have Kempf's 3rd Panzer Corps do a limited advance east to get into contact with enemy and acertain his strength, size and command. A recon in force.
number four.Lets think this a little bit.The "Steppe" has unloaded itself now and are hiding and waiting us to advance in the Kursk,so they can hit us in the flank.We dont want to play their game but we cant just stand still and wait for Stavka to deploy new forces in the area.So lets go and pick a fight with them on our terms.
#4 and #3 at the same time.
Reconnaisance by fire is the most effective form of reconnaisance. Just make sure that the 3rd PzKorps doesn't lose any of its good tanks to the Soviets.
Also, bring a few planes along to cause some serious havoc among the Russians and delay them where they are.
Hoth is right though, you can't just sit there. The Russians can use this opportunity to run around your flanks and cut you off (Ouran offensive anyone?). You have to smash the Russians ASAP, even if it means advancing too far.
~:) 2 is the one. Steppe has been attacked by our planes. So they know that we have seen them. If they want to surprise us they have to attack. Now that the gate to Kursk is open we should advance with weak forces. They will be strong enough. This will also provoke the Steppe. When they try to flank our spearhead the strong divisions can attack their flank. They will be done when Model breakes through! That's it ~:cheers:
#4
What happened to this thread?....
I think we were stuck because there was three different opinions what to do.Now that you decided it,i think Kraxis can continue. ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
4. Kraxis, let's get this show on the road...
Ah. That makes sense. tyQuote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
Actually I was waiting for people to come back. It seemed to have lost interest in people, thus I too lost a bit interest. It is not so fun to do this for the sake of three guys. ~:cool:
I prefer that people answer, even if they can't impact the outcome. I might get ideas for some of the plotline, or some interesting injection. So if you want to say something, please do. Half of it is anyway to see how you guys react to the chapter and to each other.
Boiled down to the most basic: Like all authors I like attention. ~D
Btw, in case of a tie it has been the first poster that gets his way.
So you mean you do it because you are a bit vain and sado ~;)All right! I'll soon be back with more questions!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
KRAXIS I NEED MY FIX!
umm, sorry
How strong are the forces Model is facing?
What are the Partisans behind our front doing?
Kraxis....
PLEASE POST NOW!!!!!!!