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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
I'm not certain of how best to organize it.
I will not even try to do so, because I know far too little about the American situation. But my country may have to face similar human or natural onslaughts, for instance due to terrorism, so I am interested in the general principles.
The immediate interventions needed during an emergency are mostly 'hands-on' as well as specialist in nature. According to most experts these interventions should preferably go into effect within 24 hours (and 72 at the maximum) after the original incident. This would point to the need for a limited staff that is responsible for the overall effort and that stands back and delegates the actual jobs in hand, if need be directly and forcefully, with the shortest possible delay.
That would require that you give this agency Authority with a capital 'a'. This is necessary because the Army will not suffer being relegated to second rank gladly (no difference there between the U.S. and Wooden Shoesia); medical personnel may not be easy to order around either, particularly if they are volunteers; and local authorities will want to have their say. In the end, no authority can be sustained if it does not command the respect of the ones who work with it. There is no safety in numbers when your name is Michael Brown... you need expertise to command authority.
So your renewed FEMA would need to incorporate, in a number of fields, the best experts that money can buy. It wouldn't have to be large, but it would have to be heavily loaded with expertise and it would have to fall directly under the command of the President, yet have to account to the people (Congress) on a yearly basis and at any other time is the need arises.
Hmmm. How am I doing so far?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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Originally Posted by AdrianII
Hmmm. How am I doing so far?
Yep, that is one solution. The question is how well it would operate having authority over the military. Perhaps an overall coordinator of each emergency should be civilian (probably ex-military, but civilian appointed.) You need representatives familiar with police, fire, transportation, utilities, etc. However, in any big event, access is a big issue, and the military branches (and coast guard) are the only ones who can full those oversize shoes rapidly. Therefore, I suppose that the military needs to be given a clear mission early on, and told to request anything civilian they need to get it done (need 500 buses, need a string of fully supplied shelters to evacuate people to, need 100 civilian airliners, need barges, etc.) then let the military planners take the lead in making it happen. They will get respect like no others.
With medical personnel, I think if you give them a framework/staging areas and forward deployment areas that make sense, they will do just fine. The complaints I've seen is that they are not given accesss or the system is not letting them move far enough forward. They are understandably upset about being ready to go, and instead being stuck away form the congregations of evacuees.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Yep, that is one solution. The question is how well it would operate having authority over the military.
The question is whether it should or should not have that authority. If modern crisis situations make such a division of responsibilities necessary, the Army will have to live with it. If the approach to a crisis by the appointed head of the emergency apparatus is rational and efficient, the Army will cooperate. If it is shoddy and incompetent, the Army will start bucking. And rightly so.
There is a major difference between the U.S. Army and the Dutch Army in that the latter has much less expertise and specific competence due to tradition, cut-backs, issues of scale, etcetera. Our Army does not operate huge laboratories, experimental farms, supercomputers or the most advanced means of communications like the U.S. Army does. Civilian participation would be much more (and sooner) needed here than in your country. Threat and damage asessment in a chemical or biological emergency for instance would require immediate collaboration with civilian scientists and technology experts. Our Army would not be able to command the same means or the same respect from civilians as the U.S. Army.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
With medical personnel, I think if you give them a framework/staging areas and forward deployment areas that make sense, they will do just fine. The complaints I've seen is that they are not given accesss or the system is not letting them move far enough forward.
That is my understanding, too. I have read some harrowing accounts of specialised (!) medical units geared for emergency intervention being sent back and forth across Louisiana day after day for all of last week before they could get to work (of course by that time they were exhausted from travelling under terrible circumstances, sleeping in their cars, eating too little, etcetera).
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Oh I have back in 1999 - and it was a reactionary agency back then - and from I have seen from the news reports now - it remains exactly the same. Lip service to the prepare and mitigate - concentrates on the response and the reaction to the diaster. Hell it was even establish by President Carter as an reaction to a previous hurricane.
The fact that they fail to do their entire job on a regular basis doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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Originally Posted by Kongamato
Do you expect a commission to be formed to investigate the mistakes made here, like with the 9/11 commission?
I'm beginning to think it'd be a good idea. It could certainly clear the air and take a look at the facts of the matter rather than all of the red-faced screaming and finger pointing that is going on now.
A question I'd like to hear answered is why Nagin waited until Sunday afternoon to order the mandatory evactuation of New Orleans when they had been under a hurricane warning (meaning they were going to get hit) since Saturday. It apparently took a call from both the NHC and then the president to accomplish this.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
A question I'd like to hear answered is why Nagin waited until Sunday afternoon to order the mandatory evactuation of New Orleans when they had been under a hurricane warning (meaning they were going to get hit) since Saturday. It apparently took a call from both the NHS and then the president to accomplish this.
Or why Blanco waited till Thursday to sign for the release of those school buses we saw parked in three feet of water in that picture. It seems everybody down there was heeding Condoleezza Rice's motto 'The Lord wil provide in due time - let us just wait'.
But a good investigation shouldn't just kick up dirt. There are (sad) lessons to be learned from this by the entire world (or at least my country) with regard to crisis management and emergency procedures.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
If only people had heeded FEMA's rap song ...
Disaster . . . it can happen anywhere,
But we've got a few tips, so you can be prepared
For floods, tornadoes, or even a 'quake,
You've got to be ready - so your heart don't break.
Disaster prep is your responsibility
And mitigation is important to our agency.
People helping people is what we do
And FEMA is there to help see you through
When disaster strikes, we are at our best
But we're ready all the time, 'cause disasters don't rest.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
An interesting little piece about some more people trying to cast blame for a natural disaster. Fox did a great piece on how disaster relief works but sadly it didnt make it on their video site.
Whose is at Fault for Katrina?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Is this the same Fox News that was calling their hurricane and flood coverage "The Cost of Freedom"? Yeah, there's a group of intelligent people capable of unbiased news coverage. Uh huh.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
No its not. The "Cost of Freedom" is what they call their business block on the weekends. Its pretty clever really. I dont know where you got that they were calling Katrina coverage that.. last I heard they were calling Katrina "Americas Challenge", which while corny, is pretty accurate.
BTW, since you took the time to bash Fox, I assume you took the time to watch the vid and can refute their information? If not, I would say you are being a bit pre-emptive in saying they are biased, which is typical among people of your persuasion.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
And what, exactly, are you assuming my "persuasion" to be? This should be good.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Hmm.. Id say you are an anarcho-syndicalist with socialist-libertarian tendencies.
Now then, did you watch the short video or are you just wasting my time?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
I'm no more wasting your time than you're wasting good air. Let me guess, you really have no clue what anarcho-syndicalism means, do you? You just assumed that I was a liberal, leading to your "typical among people of your persuasion" comment. How many liberals do you know that support gun ownership and oppose abortion? To me, liberals are just as bad as conservatives. If you're going to blindly categorize people, then I might as well pigeon hole Fox news as biased, right? I don't blame Fox for being a barely disguised propaganda machine for a particular political viewpoint. It's their right. I'd be more concerned if they weren't so obvious about it. ~D
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
And you still have nothing to say about the video clip I posted, where you have ignored the information and attacked the source.
Its almost as if you are trying to fulfill the preconcieved notions I have about people of your political persuasion. And they say people dont fit labels.. :laugh4:
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
That's what I thought.
And I already gave my opinion of the Fox video.
For some reason, I have this irresistible urge to act like John Cleese in episode #6 of Fawlty Towers. ~:rolleyes:
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
And I already gave my opinion of the Fox video.
Where? Youve only given the tired old response to anything concerning FoxNews that moveon tells you to give.
I dont know why I even bother with liberal trolls in moderate's clothing anymore, your prepackaged opinions are easy enough to guess. Where is JAG? At least he brought a different sort of liberal viewpoint to the table and wasnt ashamed of what he believed.
But congratulations. Through an excellent use of trolling, youve managed to sideline the video I thought gave an interesting take on the Katrina blame game. You win, crawl back under your bridge. Thats what I get for trying to have a rational discussion. :no:
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
How can I have a rational discussion with someone who can't tell the difference between a liberal and a libertarian?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
I apologize, I misspoke. I should have said "I dont know why I even bother with liberal trolls in libertarian's clothing anymore, your prepackaged opinions are easy enough to guess." :bow:
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Anyone who disagrees with you must be a liberal. Really? So you wouldn't be upset if I just ceased trying to argue points with you rationally and simply said Sieg! in reponse to all of your comments? Gotcha. ~:)
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Wow, I don't watch much Fox, but they really pile it on, don't they? Germany and Ms. Sheehan say that Bush's climate policies led to the hurricane, and by the way, lots of people think Dems are hostile to religion. And that's the opinion piece for the day. Sorry, the "grapevine" piece. Of everything going on right now, that's what they need to emphasize and bring to the public's immediate attention.
To paraphrase Gawain, "They may be partisan, but at least they're honest about it!" Oh, wait, they aren't ...
[edit]
Now that I listened to the wisdom of Fox news, I insist that PJ listen to the entirety of the FEMA rap for kids.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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Originally Posted by Lemurmania
To paraphrase Gawain, "They may be partisan, but at least they're honest about it!" Oh, wait, they aren't ...
Doesn't look like Pulitzer material to me.
It seems my brethren in crime will have to do some more rectification soon, at least if this Guardian report is to be believed. Apparently quite a few stories about murder and rape at the Convention Center and elsewhere in New Orleans were untrue, unsubstantiated or exaggerated. Well, what else is new(s)?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Here's a video clip you won't be seeing on Fox.
It's the president of the Jefferson parish, the equivalent of a county commissioner: http://www.bushwatch.net/mtp_broussa...ur_050904C.mov
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Hmm.. Id say you are an anarcho-syndicalist with socialist-libertarian tendencies.
I am amused by how little sense that makes, nice one ~:cheers:.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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Originally Posted by AdrianII
Doesn't look like Pulitzer material to me.
It seems my brethren in crime will have to do some more rectification soon, at least if this
Guardian report is to be believed. Apparently quite a few stories about murder and rape at the Convention Center and elsewhere in New Orleans were untrue, unsubstantiated or exaggerated. Well, what else is new(s)?
Don't worry, we have Fox on guard claiming all sorts of things that aren't true. They are working hard to blame this on local officials and the residents themselves. They carry lots of great footage, but their spin on the news is blatant. PJ's clip is an example of what Fox considers "Fair and Balanced." I especially like the guilt by association of Fahraqan with Sheehan. They know what plays to their right wing audience. I actually saw the clip when it aired, then changed the channel looking for news. Fox is more a political organ than a network. Bad news for them if public sentiment turns away from the right wing, as their publicly perceived "credibility" is tied directly to Dubya's--a foundation of mud.
If you want an eye opener, hunt for the clip of Sheperd Smith and Geraldo breaking ranks and ripping on those idiots sitting at Fox, Hannity and Colmes. Haven't seen Shep since.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Don't worry, we have Fox on guard claiming all sorts of things that aren't true. They are working hard to blame this on local officials and the residents themselves. They carry lots of great footage, but their spin on the news is blatant. PJ's clip is an example of what Fox considers "Fair and Balanced." I especially like the guilt by association of Fahraqan with Sheehan. They know what plays to their right wing audience. I actually saw the clip when it aired, then changed the channel looking for news. Fox is more a political organ than a network. Bad news for them if public sentiment turns away from the right wing, as their publicly perceived "credibility" is tied directly to Dubya's--a foundation of mud.
If you want an eye opener, hunt for the clip of Sheperd Smith and Geraldo breaking ranks and ripping on those idiots sitting at Fox, Hannity and Colmes. Haven't seen Shep since.
Wow, you watched the clip. I appreciate your open mind.
First of all, can you dispute any of the information presented in the clip or is it just "right-wing bias"?
Second, that 3 minute segment comes 30 minutes into a 60 minute news show. If you look at the hard news presented on CNN, MSNBC, or any other news program, its the same news. I would guess the headlines on the various news sites are all relatively the same. However, everyone knows Brit Hume is the best anchor - ever. ~;)
Third, Shep Smith was on Oreilly last night getting all sorts of compliments for his work, so that little implication that he's been sidelined can be put to bed.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Due to his own incompetence it is probably too little, too late for Mr Brown, but... The Washington Post is running an article today that sheds a somewhat milder light on his previous career:
Allbaugh hired Brown after an acrimonious end to a nine-year stint as commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association. Former officials say he was forced out; a friend and lawyer of Brown's said he negotiated a settlement after withstanding numerous lawsuits against his enforcement of rules for judges and stewards.
Defending his qualifications, Brown said he has overseen responses to 164 presidential declared emergencies and disasters as FEMA counsel and general counsel, including the 2003 Columbia shuttle disaster and the California wildfires in 2003. "I have been through a few disasters," he said at a news conference yesterday.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Wow, you watched the clip. I appreciate your open mind.
First of all, can you dispute any of the information presented in the clip or is it just "right-wing bias"?
It was irrelevant, focused on causes of the storm rather than the relief effort. It was presented in an utterly biased fashion, pandering to an audience, rather than reporting anything of value.
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Second, that 3 minute segment comes 30 minutes into a 60 minute news show. If you look at the hard news presented on CNN, MSNBC, or any other news program, its the same news. I would guess the headlines on the various news sites are all relatively the same. However, everyone knows Brit Hume is the best anchor - ever. ~;)
Quite the opposite, CNN, MSNBC, etc. have had quite different headlines than Fox. Fox is clearly trying to play up the local blame side with what it choses as its headlines when compared to the others. Fox was in hero worship mode for too long on this one, seriously behind the curve.
Like I said, I switched channels about that same point, I did not see the remainder of the broadcast as it wasn't reporting anything important. I wanted some news, not irrelevant spin. I'll never trust anything Brit Hume says again after what I've seen on Fox over the last week.
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Third, Shep Smith was on Oreilly last night getting all sorts of compliments for his work, so that little implication that he's been sidelined can be put to bed.
I never said what became of him, I had not heard Fox mention him and had not seen him for some time. I do suspect he will be rethinking his career choices, or be seeking to alter some of Fox's spin. It might be best if he could fight it from the inside. Long term we will see if this changes anything. The look of resignation on his face suggests to me that you might be surprised at what happens in the next few weeks.
In summary, Fox's interpretation of many things was about as delayed as the President's and his appointees. The guys on the ground eventually started putting it altogether, piecing together a good picture of what they had been showing. If you've seen the clip where Shep and Geraldo go off, you can clearly see that they've both lost faith in what they are hearing from the Administration. Fox was way behind the curve on reporting this. Even now, Fox is in "Blame the Victim" mode.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Due to his own incompetence it is probably too little, too late for Mr Brown, but...
The Washington Post is running
an article today that sheds a somewhat milder light on his previous career:
Allbaugh hired Brown after an acrimonious end to a nine-year stint as commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association. Former officials say he was forced out; a friend and lawyer of Brown's said he negotiated a settlement after withstanding numerous lawsuits against his enforcement of rules for judges and stewards.
Defending his qualifications, Brown said he has overseen responses to 164 presidential declared emergencies and disasters as FEMA counsel and general counsel, including the 2003 Columbia shuttle disaster and the California wildfires in 2003. "I have been through a few disasters," he said at a news conference yesterday.
Yet absolutely nothing about that suggests he was in any way qualified to run the agency. Do we really need litigious attorney's running these types of agencies? This is like saying a janitor at FEMA for the past few years would be qualified. Wrong skill set! From my experience working with corporate counsel I would never expect them to get anything done quickly.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
In related news, we have a resurgence of Brown's previous boss, the guy PJ claims suggested Brown for his abilities and was thus the real impetus for Brown's appointment by Bush to head FEMA. It seems that not only has Joe Allbaugh been profiteering off of the war in Iraq running a consulting firm advising businesses seeking to expand into Iraq; but it seems he was also hired by KBR in March of this year as a lobbyist. He was instrumental this week in getting a contract for KBR to work on Navy vessels damaged by the storm. What is KBR, you ask? Why KBR is just an acronym for Kellogg, Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton. Funny how these things work out, isn't it?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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It was irrelevant, focused on causes of the storm rather than the relief effort. It was presented in an utterly biased fashion, pandering to an audience, rather than reporting anything of value.
Well whether its relevant or not is purely subjective. It was news was it not? Cindy Sheehan certainly wasnt irrelevant when she seemed reasonable was she?
And how was it presented in a biased fashion? Did you not think it was valuable what a top German official says about the disaster? I see nothing worthless in reporting the international take on things. Also the poll was very on topic for a political news show was it not?
Im fascinated by this whole "presented in a biased fashion" viewpoint. To me, it seems as if he just read some facts off the teleprompter. No one has pointed to anything false in the clip, yet somehow it is still biased.
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Quite the opposite, CNN, MSNBC, etc. have had quite different headlines than Fox. Fox is clearly trying to play up the local blame side with what it choses as its headlines when compared to the others. Fox was in hero worship mode for too long on this one, seriously behind the curve.
Not true, check out the headlines now. www.cnn.com / www.foxnews.com
They both say basically the same thing. Both get most of their news from the AP anyway.
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Like I said, I switched channels about that same point, I did not see the remainder of the broadcast as it wasn't reporting anything important. I wanted some news, not irrelevant spin. I'll never trust anything Brit Hume says again after what I've seen on Fox over the last week.
Fox has done some of the best reporting this week. Theyve had people in places CNN and MSNBC didnt dare go. But if you insist on not hearing anything but Bush Bashing, be my guest. Do you not feel that the local reaction deserves mention? Its called balance.
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In summary, Fox's interpretation of many things was about as delayed as the President's and his appointees. The guys on the ground eventually started putting it altogether, piecing together a good picture of what they had been showing. If you've seen the clip where Shep and Geraldo go off, you can clearly see that they've both lost faith in what they are hearing from the Administration. Fox was way behind the curve on reporting this. Even now, Fox is in "Blame the Victim" mode.
All news agencys had a hard time wrapping their hands around such a big disaster. I have yet to see anyone on Fox blame the victims of this for anything. In fact, theyve done some great pieces in the Astrodome about how the victims are holding out so well in such a horrible situation.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Well whether its relevant or not is purely subjective.
No it is perfecly objective. The link was about proposed global warming causes, which had nothing to do with the emergency response. Might as well have been talking about ping pong in China as it was irrelevant.
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And how was it presented in a biased fashion?
If it isn't obvious to you, then there is nothing I can ever do to prove it.
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Not true, check out the headlines now.
www.cnn.com /
www.foxnews.com
They both say basically the same thing. Both get most of their news from the AP anyway.
No they don't, and more importanly they *haven't*. Of course if someone can't sniff the obvious bias in that clip you linked to or its lack of relevance, then they are unlikely to be able to detect other differences in reporting, particularly what has been missing. Fox has been far slower to pick up on anything critical of the Federal response, they've been fast to blast locals.
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Fox has done some of the best reporting this week. Theyve had people in places CNN and MSNBC didnt dare go. But if you insist on not hearing anything but Bush Bashing, be my guest. Do you not feel that the local reaction deserves mention? Its called balance.
Good on the spot reporting, yes. That's the only reason I watched them. Interpretation...out to lunch. That hit a boiling point with the Hannity and Colmes segment where the reporters on the scene objected to the spin.
The local on the spot reporting all showed a failed federal response. All of it. Claim what you like but it was obvious for anyone to see, who actually cared to look. That's why I started that "Lack of Preparedness" thread. I had noticed the problem from the reporting 24 hours prior to that. Fox took about 24 hours longer than CNN to catch on. Yes, I was watching. CNN and the Weather channel had some very good reporting early on.
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I have yet to see anyone on Fox blame the victims of this for anything. In fact, theyve done some great pieces in the Astrodome about how the victims are holding out so well in such a horrible situation.
Oh come on. That is complete BS. They've been headlining looting and lawlessness as their main topics for 5 days. They were doing, "Stop the Blame Game" 24 hours before ANY federal convoys had arrived. I flipped them on for 5 minutes this morning and ALL I heard was "local officials were unprepared" ad nauseum--reported from Baton Rouge by the way...not New Orleans.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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No it is perfecly objective. The link was about proposed global warming causes, which had nothing to do with the emergency response. Might as well have been talking about ping pong in China as it was irrelevant.
First of all, the Global Warming bit was directly linked to Katrina due to the fact that the German fellow blamed Katrina on America causing global warming.
Second, Special Report is a news show, not a Katrina show. There has been other news besides Katrina in the last week you know.
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If it isn't obvious to you, then there is nothing I can ever do to prove it.
That speaks volumes. Bias is a rather straightforward thing. Is he twisting facts to fit an agenda or not? Ill assume you cannot contest any of the information provided, you just dont like what you heard.
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No they don't, and more importanly they *haven't*. Of course if someone can't sniff the obvious bias in that clip you linked to or its lack of relevance, then they are unlikely to be able to detect other differences in reporting, particularly what has been missing. Fox has been far slower to pick up on anything critical of the Federal response, they've been fast to blast locals.
Thats simply not true. The only two shows I watch regularly, Special Report and Oreilly have been very critical of both the local and federal government. You dont think its fair to criticize the obvious faults of the local government aswell? It seems you are looking for the news to give Bush a black eye rather than the truth of what really happened, which involves several branches of the government.
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Oh come on. That is complete BS. They've been headlining looting and lawlessness as their main topics for 5 days. They were doing, "Stop the Blame Game" 24 hours before ANY federal convoys had arrived. I flipped them on for 5 minutes this morning and ALL I heard was "local officials were unprepared" ad nauseum--reported from Baton Rouge by the way...not New Orleans.
Every news channel headlined the looting. :dizzy2: That has a lot more to do with ratings than any secret political agenda.
You seem to be objecting to Fox reporting that the local authorities were unprepared. Is it that you dont think thats accurate or you dont think its newsworthy? :thinking:
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
The best reporting on the diaster as it happened was by The Weather Channel, all the rest of the stations and networks were all after ratings and thier methods of reporting reflect that.
To bad The Weather Channel doesn't carry much hard news besides the weather. They are by far the most unbaised of reporters I have seen cover the events around New Orleans.
Notice how much the discussion is being focused around the spin being placed on the situation by both parties. Frankly I have stopped watching most news networks for now. I catch about five minutes of fox at the top of the hour and 10 minutes on Headline News about 3 times a day. I have been skipping all other sources on the television and primarily relying on google searches for links to multiple reports - so I can try to figure out what is the news verus what is being spun.
The blame for the lack of prepareness for this diaster lies primarily with the city and the state. The blame for the lack of proper response lies with the Federal Government.
All are equally at fault in my opinion - and everything else is spin where the media is focusing on only one part of it. The news is doing a terrible job on reporting, focusing on the party politic spin verus coverning the actual news and human interest..
Several people in the Federal Government working in FEMA and Homeland Security need to be fired, both agencies need a serious going over and needed reforms done. The governor of Louisana needs to be recalled for gross negilence, and the Mayor needs to face the consequences of his decisions. I don't think he is guilty of negilience - just incomptency and complaincy in dealing with this crisis.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
PJ,
You can't seem to tell the difference between focus and reporting. I've watched enough of this to tell the difference. Fox's efforts to pin blame and to praise were/are transparent. They were not asking hard questions of the Feds when they should have. Their response has been only slightly faster than the Federal response, and that ain't good.
I could go into tons of detail, but it just isn't worth it. You are always going to see it the other way.
Many of the "faults" reported of the local government response have been unreasonable. They have been faulted for things which were clearly out of their control with a storm of this magnitude that hit at this speed. The way I see it, they fulfilled their primary roles, not perfectly, but well enough for a fast developing situation with limited resources. The failure was in the handoff to state and Federal.
I'm not ready to give anyone a pass, that's one reason why a commission is needed. However, from what I saw of the timing and efforts taken, the local response was an order of magnitude quicker and more appropriate than the Federal response.
The Guard reliance is misplaced. As folks have pointed out, their numbers are diminished (and insufficient even if undiminished.) Also, quite a bit of their equipment does not appear to be sitting in armories anymore. For the past two years they've looked empty when I drive by them.
Another part is that the proponents of small government now have to face the fact that this sort of response and lack of preparedness are a side effect of pushes toward smaller govt. Some folks seem to think the only federal spending should be on the military, and that infrastructure support should be slashed. Here you go...this is one example of happens with that sort of approach, poor Federal response, and inadequate infrastructure to prevent a disaster.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Another part is that the proponents of small government now have to face the fact that this sort of response and lack of preparedness are a side effect of pushes toward smaller govt. Some folks seem to think the only federal spending should be on the military, and that infrastructure support should be slashed. Here you go...this is one example of happens with that sort of approach, poor Federal response, and inadequate infrastructure to prevent a disaster.
Here is another guy who got fired three years ago because he couldn't take it anymore:
American Society of Civil Engineers
March 8, 2002
Michael Parker, the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Civil Works), the top civilian in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, resigned suddenly on March 6. The former Republican congressman from Mississippi reportedly was asked to resign because the White House was upset with the way Parker had seemed to undermine the Bush administration's proposed cut to the Corps' FY 2003 budget. Parker testified before his former colleagues on the House Appropriations' Water and Power Subcommittee on Feb. 27. The comment which apparently angered Bush administration officials addressed the White House's $4.18 billion budget proposal, a $460 million cut from the FY 2002 enacted level. Parker said the proposal was a starting point and not a figure that he expected to hold firm during the appropriations process, particularly because of the common practice whereby lawmakers earmark water projects for their home districts. President Bush and the White House Office of Management and Budget have said they are vehemently opposed to such efforts, particularly in light of what they say are the heightened spending needs for homeland security and the overseas war efforts.
Of course a breakdown of effective government results in a vicious circle in which people regard their government with even more contempt, resulting in further cuts, loss of prestige and authority, and further failures.
There is an uncanny resemblance between the lack of planning for the Iraq war and the lack of planning for this disaster. You can't have national security on the cheap.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Here's a quote that goes right to the heart of the matter:
"I don't want to abolish government, I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." - Grover Norquist, major strategist behind Bush's tax policy (Norquist in his own words on NPR)
It isn't the government that this sort of thinking drowned this time.
http://www.bushwatch.net/53911202.jpg
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
The blame for the lack of prepareness for this diaster lies primarily with the city and the state. The blame for the lack of proper response lies with the Federal Government.
I agree with this for the most part. The city and the state should have had better evacuation plans. I differ with you mainly on the local level. The state should have had an all out effort to bring in buses and control the roads to make evacuation possible. Problem is, you can't do it well on the fly with so few hours. The plan must be there ahead of time.
I don't believe it was possible for New Orleans to fully evacuate itself on such short notice even if it had a great plan. You need more security and transport from outside to make it happen. The locals share responsibility for this shortfall with the state, but also with the Feds. You can't just move half a million people out in a little over 24 hours without some idea of how to distribute them. That becomes national in a hurry. Nationally, you need to have network of areas with sufficient facilities and roads/logistical support to make it work. We have the resources and capability, we just haven't identified them ahead of time.
Regardless of city/state unpreparedness (or perhaps because of it) the Feds have the primary responsibility for the response. After an event reaches some scale (Andrew, Katrina, big Cali quakes, etc.) it is well past what locals can be expected to manage.
Forced evacuation is not something the average U.S. citizen or official is comfortable with. "Mandatory" sounds good to Americans...until it becomes enforced at gun point, etc. Honestly, I think we need some societal discipline rethink in this regard. There are too many people in New Orleans even today, trying to hang on. Frankly, they are a fire risk, health risk, and security risk and need to go no matter how good their intentions. Give them overnight to tidy up/get their heads right, and then start forcible removal for those who won't budge.
The biggest debate looming is the scale of the failure at each level and that is evident in the various discussions. If I had to rank each level on how well it performed its responsibilities in the lead up and first 3 to 5 days, I would rate it:
Best: Local
Worst: Federal
Unknown (and possibly worst, almost certainly not best): State
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
I agree with this for the most part. The city and the state should have had better evacuation plans. I differ with you mainly on the local level. The state should have had an all out effort to bring in buses and control the roads to make evacuation possible. Problem is, you can't do it well on the fly with so few hours. The plan must be there ahead of time.
I agree complete with this paragraph
Quote:
I don't believe it was possible for New Orleans to fully evacuate itself on such short notice even if it had a great plan. You need more security and transport from outside to make it happen. The locals share responsibility for this shortfall with the state, but also with the Feds. You can't just move half a million people out in a little over 24 hours without some idea of how to distribute them. That becomes national in a hurry. Nationally, you need to have network of areas with sufficient facilities and roads/logistical support to make it work. We have the resources and capability, we just haven't identified them ahead of time.
Agree. What you are talking about here is an actual evacuation plan - one that takes all three levels to adequatily execute. Which also means that all three levels have to make and coordinate the plan in the planning process and execute at least one rehearsal.
Quote:
Regardless of city/state unpreparedness (or perhaps because of it) the Feds have the primary responsibility for the response. After an event reaches some scale (Andrew, Katrina, big Cali quakes, etc.) it is well past what locals can be expected to manage.
Disagree - all three have different levels of response. The city in the case of evacuation has the lead - which is the requirement to make the call to evacuate. If its a national responsiblity then only the President has the ability to make the call. In situations like this I want the leader on site to make the call and then the system to immediately begin to work based upon his/her call. The size of the event should be taken in consideration in the plan. The city Mayor had the direct obligation to ask for assistance from the Governor.
That is one of the reason I think for this to work better large cities need the ability to directly coordinate with Federal agencies to plan for evacuation. This is where the Federal Government can do much better in the planning process. Link up national resources with large cities for planning evacuations. Image if the city of New Orleans had direct coordination with Folk Polk and some of the Military transportation there.
Possible scenerio:
In four to six hours from the city's plan to evacuate the Military could of arranged for security on the route out - provided some transportation in the form of trucks of many different types and several types of buses that sit in the motorpool there. How many people could of been spared if the military was immediately called in - I would guess about 10,000 willing evacuatee's.
Without establishment of Maritial law and an active plan to force evacuation - which would be intensive in manpower and coordination. Even then given the time between the mandatory evacuation the the hurrican hitting - I don't think even a well established plan would of reduced the causalities or suffering of those who whould have been forced to evacuate.
Fort Polk is about 4 to 5 hours from New Orleans if my memory serves me correctly. However to do this several current laws will have to be reviewed and changed. There is presendence in the Military Assistance to Civilian missions and the legislation from congress - but Posse Comaitus (SP) would have to be reviewed and revamp to actually make it work.
Quote:
Forced evacuation is not something the average U.S. citizen or official is comfortable with. "Mandatory" sounds good to Americans...until it becomes enforced at gun point, etc. Honestly, I think we need some societal discipline rethink in this regard. There are too many people in New Orleans even today, trying to hang on. Frankly, they are a fire risk, health risk, and security risk and need to go no matter how good their intentions. Give them overnight to tidy up/get their heads right, and then start forcible removal for those who won't budge.
Yep that is the holdover from the Posse Comitas and the Civil War. However you are right the Government now has the obligation to remove these people from harms way - even if it has to be forced.
Quote:
The biggest debate looming is the scale of the failure at each level and that is evident in the various discussions. If I had to rank each level on how well it performed its responsibilities in the lead up and first 3 to 5 days, I would rate it:
Best: Local
Worst: Federal
Unknown (and possibly worst, almost certainly not best): State
[/quote]
agreed - and I would definetly place the state as the worst of the lot. The Governor screwed up major - especially if the statement about needing 24 hours to think is true. If that is true the state of Lousiana needs to look at criminal charges being placed on the governor for gross neglience and manslaughter.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Regardless of city/state unpreparedness (or perhaps because of it) the Feds have the primary responsibility for the response. After an event reaches some scale (Andrew, Katrina, big Cali quakes, etc.) it is well past what locals can be expected to manage.
I don't know that's the case. Primary response is always the responsibility of local/state agencies. Maybe you don't think it should be the case, but that's not the way our government is currently setup. The only way I know of that the federal government could've intervened from the beginning would've been to declare a state of insurrection- which would've allowed the federal gov to deploy military assets without state approval.
Quote:
If I had to rank each level on how well it performed its responsibilities in the lead up and first 3 to 5 days, I would rate it:
Best: Local
Worst: Federal
Unknown (and possibly worst, almost certainly not best): State
Something just tastes bad about saying any group was "best", especially the New Orleans gov- considering they sent people to shelters with no supplies and actually instructed people to eat a meal before coming to the shelters and bring their own bedding.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
I don't know that's the case. Primary response is always the responsibility of local/state agencies. Maybe you don't think it should be the case, but that's not the way our government is currently setup. The only way I know of that the federal government could've intervened from the beginning would've been to declare a state of insurrection- which would've allowed the federal gov to deploy military assets without state approval.
First, the current system doesn't work, period. The idea of exhausting local resources is foolish. It's like telling those in the Alamo, "hold out as long as you can, when you are about to collapse we'll be there" (NOT!) Some of it is legislation based on power struggles, some of it is money, some of it is party politics (desire to shrink FEMA or change its role, etc.) The difference between leadership and going through the motions is acting boldly and effectively to avert a worse disaster. That didn't happen. Nagin came closest when he finally went on a tirade. Within 12 hours many things were improving and the govt response went from pathetic to what most of us anticipated. Whether you like Nagin or not, that was leadership. I can't believe he waited as long as he did. In his place I would have gone off the handle at least a day before (squeaky wheel gets the grease.) I don't care if it was the state or Feds holding things up, what he said was on the mark.
Second, presidents have federalized the guard before in lesser emergencies. If it is a national disaster, a lot can happen. I suspect part of the problem here is the current leadership's push for "states rights" type approaches. That ties their hands.
Quote:
Something just tastes bad about saying any group was "best", especially the New Orleans gov- considering they sent people to shelters with no supplies and actually instructed people to eat a meal before coming to the shelters and bring their own bedding.
Considering it was last resort to ride out a storm that would likely destroy their dwellings and/or drown them, this was very reasonable advice. The problem was not the use of the Dome, but the lack of supply evacuation security in the following 4 or 5 days. The city was stretched far too thin to manage this for so long. They expected help (as did the nation.) It didn't come. Concentrating people like this *should* have made the state/Federal efforts far easier.
My wife now understands why I take no chances when such situations are looming. I tell her we are getting out early rather than waiting for the rush, what is coming with us (including which particular weapons) and how I'm going to react to certain situations. She always thought I was a wee bit paranoid. She's a believer now.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Do you read instruction manuals before assembling? (I do)
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Do you read instruction manuals before assembling? (I do)
Yeah, my wife gets really irritated about that as well...
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Saw a clip tonight that Dubya is saying he will personally lead an investigation into the handling of this response. In his dreams! This one is going to be going before an independent commission. I don't think anyone is going to allow Mr. WMD/Abu Ghraib/Rove protector to investigate his own response. This is no different than NASA's disasters or 9/11. If his people actually did perform well he should want an outside investigation. That is how you actually are vindicated, by independents.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
My wife now understands why I take no chances when such situations are looming. I tell her we are getting out early rather than waiting for the rush, what is coming with us (including which particular weapons) and how I'm going to react to certain situations. She always thought I was a wee bit paranoid. She's a believer now.
My wife gets mad at me for having 5 different ways to get out of Dallas and 3 different routes to visit her parents in near Kansas City, and then the 6 different routes I use to go to work. She wont let me take my alternate routes to Killeen to visit my brother and his family.
Sometimes I am just to damn security conscience for my own good,
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Worth taking a look at -- there's a partial list of FEMA's interference with early recovery efforts. The site is partisan, but everything is linked and documented, so there's good data to be had.
I really don't see how the Executive Branch can avoid giving Michael Brown his walking papers ... for a start. Let's getting rid of Michael Brown as credibility minimum wage.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
First, the current system doesn't work, period.
Yeah, that's fine to say- and it most definitely needs some changing, but I don't see where we can legitimately call for political crucifixions of people who were following the system that was in place.
As a side, I think it's worth noting that I never supported Homeland Security being made into a cabinet Dept. I, and many other on the right, were concerned that it would become a beaurocratic nightmare- I believe it was Democrats that demanded it be made so. I believe it was also the 9/11 Commission that mandated FEMA and other agencies be shifted under the control of this new Department. Now, our legislators are talking about seperating FEMA again- I wish they'd make up their minds.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
As a side, I think it's worth noting that I never supported Homeland Security being made into a cabinet Dept. I, and many other on the right, were concerned that it would become a beaurocratic nightmare- I believe it was Democrats that demanded it be made so.
You really ought to back up a claim like that with a linky. I did some searching and found absolutely nothing to back it up -- but perhaps your Google skills are superior to mine. All I could find was a clip from an old NY Times piece:
"The stripes on [Senator Robert Byrd's] jacket appeared to be trembling as much from indignation as from the infirmities of his 84 years as the senator held out his palm, and the power of parliamentary rules, before the onrushing bulldozer of the proposed Homeland Security Department. 'Have we all completely taken leave of our senses?' he said... [The President] 'is shouting, 'Pass the bill, pass the bill!... If ever there was a time for the Senate to throw a bucket of cold water on an overheated legislative process that is spinning out of control,' he said, 'it is now. Now!' ... All but single-handedly, Mr. Byrd has slowed the Homeland Security juggernaut by implicitly threatening a filibuster, almost certainly forcing the Senate to postpone debate until after the August recess... The Senate was virtually empty when he finished, but a sizable crowd of visitors in the gallery broke into applause."
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Yeah, that's fine to say- and it most definitely needs some changing, but I don't see where we can legitimately call for political crucifixions of people who were following the system that was in place.
Crucifixions are in order. People should be held accountable. They showed no leadership in leadership positions. I don't believe that everyone else should suffer while poor leadership performance is swept under the rug as if it was a minor infraction. In this case, the appointees hid behind their bureaucracies and misled the people, and those in the disaster zones. I don't want another Brown to be willing to accept a job like this if he can't manage it. It is a major responsibility.
The system is far from perfect, but it doesn't have to be this bad. The biggest problem other than the system itself was a lack of URGENCY by the President, by Chertoff, and by Brown (probably also by Blanco.) I've heard Rumsfeld was also involved in less than stellar fashion. Until very direct heat was applied, nothing was happening as it should have.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemurmania
You really ought to back up a claim like that with a linky. I did some searching and found absolutely nothing to back it up -- but perhaps your Google skills are superior to mine.
Perhaps. ~;)
It is, admittedly, tough to find the "as it happened" news articles on it. I still remember the TV stories- it was just a few years ago. The White House argued that it was unecessary to create a new cabinet dept, but we being hammered by Democrats on it. Clearly, coming out against "homeland security" was a loser, so eventually Bush turned around and supported it in what was likely election politics.
Democratic opposition to it revolved mainly around union special interests. They didn't want the president to have hiring/firing power without going thru union channels... talk about being beholden to special interests. :dizzy2:
Anyhow, this link from factcheck.org outlines the whole mess pretty well- Kerry tried to campaign on his support for the Dept and Bush's initial opposition. There are plenty more links that talk about Bush's initial opposition to the Dept, but like I said, the "as it happened" articles seem to have vanished.
As a further aside, myself and others were also opposed to the creation of a new Nation Intelligence Director. Honestly, when will people realize that adding layer upon layer of government beaurocracy almost never makes things more efficient?
Address the problems. We need cool heads, not knee-jerk overreactions. 9/11 brought many of the latter, and, sadly, I think Katrina will too.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
The state should have had an all out effort to bring in buses and control the roads to make evacuation possible. Problem is, you can't do it well on the fly with so few hours.
Now you're talking. If Blanco had commandeered those school buses on Saturday, many would have been in NO on Sunday and they would have been able to operate relatively easy because most of the private cars had left by Sunday afternoon. And of course there would have been problems, small riots, bus crashes, as well as lots of minor cock-ups because in emergency situations most people concentrate on secundary details. But if you want to leave 'no child behind', that is what you have to do. Just think of the Chinese who evacuated a million people in 24 hours for that hurricane the day before yesterday, most of them probably on bikes and on foot.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Just think of the Chinese who evacuated a million people in 24 hours for that hurricane the day before yesterday, most of them probably on bikes and on foot.
You realize we also evacuated about a million in 24 hours before Katrina, over 350,000 from New Orleans? It is not how many you evacuate, but how many that are left behind that is the issue. New Orleans wouldn't have remained a large issue, except that the waters could not drain (instead filling) and access was such a large problem.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
You realize we also evacuated about a million in 24 hours before Katrina, over 350,000 from New Orleans?
The painful fact is they were not evacuated, they evacuated themselves. And I think it is not the number of people staying (or left) behind that counts; what counts is what is being done for them.
You are one of the most knowledgeable, hands-on people in this forum and I read all your stuff with great interest, but it seems you, too, have somehow been bitten by the anti-government bug. I look for the old American can-do mentality and all we see these days coming from America is a can't-do mentality. I fear that the result of this whole episode may be a further down-grading of U.S. government tasks and organisations because heck, what can the government do for us anyway?
We may never agree on what could have been accomplished in New Orleans over that fateful weekend, Red Harvest, and part of the reason is out differing outlook. You tend to think of what is possible given the circumstances on, say, Friday 26th. I think in terms of what could have been possible if people in NO and elsewhere in the U.S. had had a different view of government, its purpose and its responsibilities. Underfunding is not the solution to disaster management. Nor is big government. The solution is to get your priorities right. The Dutch failed miserably in 1953 when part of the country flooded. It took a humongous and very costly effort on the part of the entire nation to build better coastal defenses. We had to bleed socially (displacement) and financially (higer taxes) for it, but it was for the common good. I am not sure we could repeat that now. The sense of common purpose has eroded in this nation, too.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
The other bit that mystifies me, is the missing (or at least, unreported) grass-roots initiatives. Most of the time in these disaster stories, you hear about how some guy/group of guys sees a snag, and takes matters into their own hands, bypassing beauracracy and solving a problem. Why did that not happen here?
For example: several somebodies must have known where the keys to all those busses were. Why didn't one of them take it upon himself to get that ball rolling? I'm not pointing a finger here, just wondering why such an obvious solution evaded everyone's attention. Just bad luck? Murphey's Law writ large?
About FEMA and it's director: It looks increasingly like they/he need to do less operational stuff - where they just get in the way, and MUCH more coordinatiion stuff. Call in the military (with its easily travelled chain-of-commend) early, and provide logistic & comm support as needed.
No links...just my opinion.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
I think we can find the truth in the difference between Mississippi and Loiusiana. Mississippi did all right, while LA did terrible. Since Bush was the President for both of them, the main difference must be in the local (where the mayor did not implement the evacuation plan) and state (where the governor wrung her hands for 24 hours before making a decision).
I think it is foolish to use this as an example as why to rely on government more. It was government (FEMA), with its miles of red tape and books of regulations and restrictions (always supported by liberals who want to regulate everything), that was the cause of a great deal of delays in the relief effort. Expanding gov't and adding more agencies to get in each other's way and empower beauracrats to impose arbitrary rules on the citizens will most certainly not help.
Crazed Rabbit
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I think it is foolish to use this as an example as why to rely on government more.
Quite. It is no use relying on a government that has no funds and no sense of purpose. The Cubans have a collective sense of purpose and a government that answers their needs in times such as these. They evacuated 1.3 million people in 24 hours before hurricane Ivan (category 5) hit in 2004. No deaths, no looting, and Fidel Castro toured the stricken areas hours after the storm had passed. Castro has a lot to answer for, but he would have long been dead and his system buried if the Cuban government wouldn't look after its people properly in such difficult circumstances. If a dictator can take care of his people this way, why can't a democratically elected government?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
For one, a dictator can force his people to move, and move fast. The mayor of NO issued a mandatory evacuation, but didn't even use the buses to transport people out.
Crazed Rabbit
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Well there won't be any hearings on the House of Representatives side. Not public ones anyway. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and House Speaker Dennis Hastert (both Republicans, if you didn't know) announced that hearings were cancelled and instead called for a "House-Senate" panel to conduct a "congressional review" of the matter. That's a far cry from public hearings. DeLay then went on to blame local authorities entirely for the problems; and he didn't stop there. He then added that Alabama and Mississippi did a much better job of responding quickly than Louisiana. Alabama and Mississippi have Republican governors. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/...ess/index.html) So it appears that the blame is going straight for the Democrats at the local level with great care being taken to make sure Republicans at the local level are immune from criticism. How nice. So much for non-partisanship, eh? At least they still plan on having public hearings in the Senate. But considering what the House of Representatives Republicans just pulled; I won't hold my breath.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
DeLay then went on to blame local authorities entirely for the problems; and he didn't stop there. He then added that Alabama and Mississippi did a much better job of responding quickly than Louisiana.
So, did they?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
So, did they?
Depends on who you ask, GOP political leaders or the residents. The Mississippians I've seen on TV weren't that happy. Many are just now getting food and water. Fortunately, their situation wasn't quite as dire.
You've got a different situation anyway. The devastated regions of those states are not trapped underwater in conditions that necessarily require evacuation (some yes, most, no.) If you weighed similar areas I'll bet you will find there isn't a lot of difference.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
The other bit that mystifies me, is the missing (or at least, unreported) grass-roots initiatives.
People have to know that there is a problem before you see such an initiative. With only about a day for outside areas to respond, the call for help has to go out early. I heard buses were actually stopped from going in at some point (according to tourists who had chartered a bus out and were instead trapped.)
After the storm the Feds/State had control of the only access, and were saying that help was on the way. We, like the residents of New Orleans could not know it was a lie until too late.
I personally would have filled my truck with water and some baby formula to drive in, but we were told that such efforts were being blocked.
A public call for help in this country will have everyone and his brother lined up. That wasn't done, in fact it was discouraged. We were told, "Send money." Like that's gonna help.
The GOP will be attacking Nagin until hell freezes over, but he was the one that finally completely tore away the veil. When he went off, the whole country realized that there were only a few hundred guard troops in New Orleans, and no support evident.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I think we can find the truth in the difference between Mississippi and Loiusiana. Mississippi did all right, while LA did terrible. Since Bush was the President for both of them, the main difference must be in the local (where the mayor did not implement the evacuation plan) and state (where the governor wrung her hands for 24 hours before making a decision).
Bogus. Not supported by the timelines I've seen and the changing path of the hurricane (which was originally to strike much farther East, then shifted West to New Orleans. Also ignores the truth that New Orleans faced a problem far different from the rest of the area, that of becoming a fishbowl.
The truth is that it is a national responsibility to help out our countrymen in need. This effort deserves a big fat F. Even Mississippians are getting slow response from the Feds and they too are complaining about a lack of water, etc. They too in many areas have yet to see any organized help.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
This keeps getting better.... Remember all the news anchors in NO after the floods screaming about how people in the shelters weren't getting supplied?
Apparently, the Red Cross was positioned with food and water, but the state Homeland Security Department wouldn't allow them in.
From RedCross.org
Quote:
Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?
* Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.
* The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Xiahou,
You forgot to mention that MEMA, Mississippi's Emergency Management Agency was having some of the same problems. There were some Mississippi politicians complaining about that.
Blanco doesn't seem to get it fully, but it is hard to tell what is controlling things now as the Feds and the state are both looking to point at each other. Bigger issue today is that Blanco is holding off on authorizing forced evacuation. Of course, Honore says that the Guard won't be doing it either. ~:rolleyes: Everyone is passing the ball to Nagin's small force to do this. Seems pretty simple to me, this is a security, fire, public health issue. All officers on the ground should be authorized to force compliance with the evacuation order, and the city should be cleared in a systematic manner.
The "no pets" rule has been a serious impediment to voluntary evacuation to those not under water. It made sense when transport was the limiting factor, but now that it is not, it is time to coax the rest out. Having a bunch of dogs about is not safe either.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
They aren't allowing pets? I'd rather take my chances in a flooded city than leave my dog and two cats to die.
Many would disagree with you. However, in the end, it's a plainly stupid decision to create a position where some, like you, would not evacuate because of a restriction that no longer has any use. The possibilities of stray dogs similar to human looters right now in New Orleans because of the forced "non-pets" rules is not a necessary risk anymore. There is no urgency in terms of limited space now that the resources are mobilized and gathering. It's just a blatant administrative failure that the gov - of all levels - fails to bring them to use in a timely and effective manner.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Xiahou,
You forgot to mention that MEMA, Mississippi's Emergency Management Agency was having some of the same problems. There were some Mississippi politicians complaining about that.
Blanco doesn't seem to get it fully, but it is hard to tell what is controlling things now as the Feds and the state are both looking to point at each other. Bigger issue today is that Blanco is holding off on authorizing forced evacuation. Of course, Honore says that the Guard won't be doing it either. ~:rolleyes: Everyone is passing the ball to Nagin's small force to do this. Seems pretty simple to me, this is a security, fire, public health issue. All officers on the ground should be authorized to force compliance with the evacuation order, and the city should be cleared in a systematic manner.
The "no pets" rule has been a serious impediment to voluntary evacuation to those not under water. It made sense when transport was the limiting factor, but now that it is not, it is time to coax the rest out. Having a bunch of dogs about is not safe either.
Honore said his troops won't be doing it because that would be law enforcement. His troops are not just Guard units now. Since the force is mixed, he's being very careful not to violate the Posse Comitatus Act which prohibits the use of the federal military for law enforcement actions unless authorized by Congress (to put it in simple terms, it's actually more complicated; but...); since Congress has not authorized it, Honore is bound by law and cannot use any federal troops or any Guard troops under federal authority that haven't been released back to the state.
As for the state Homeland Security Department mentioned by Xiahou, I believe it is under the control of the feds not the state. It is the state organization of the federal department; not a separate state-run department of Homeland Security for Louisiana. ~;) I could be wrong, though. Unless Redleg says I'm wrong, in which case I'm pretty much guaranteed to be right.
And while we're on the subject of FEMA (we weren't but I'm not going to play the Bush game of trying to blame everyone but the feds and have it parroted here by the party faithful)...
It isn't just Brown who is a political appointee at FEMA with no previous emergency experience. Brown's chief of staff at FEMA (the guy who would take over if Brown were fired), Patrick Rhode, was previously an event planner for Bush's presidential and gubernatorial campaigns - no emergency management experience at all (presumably the disaster of not having enough napkins on the tables at a $1000/plate fundraiser counts as emergency management). And under him, the deputy chief of staff, Scott Morris, was a marketing director at a software company and then worked for an Austin, Texas media company where he produced TV campaign commercials for Bush's presidential campaigns. Daniel Craig, Director of the Recovery Division was previously executive director of a regional office for the Chamber of Commerce, a lobbyist for a rural electric co-op, a political advisor and a campaign fund raiser. David Maurstad, the acting Director of Mitigation was previously a regional FEMA director - since Oct., 2001. Before that he was Lt. Governor of Nebraska, a member of the Nebraska legislature, a member of the Beatrice Nebraska school board and mayor of the apparently disaster-prone small town of Beatrice, Nebraska. Kind of makes you feel all warm and tingly inside knowing that competent people were in charge of the decision-making process which tells the professionals and career employees where to go and what to do, doesn't it?
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
As for the state Homeland Security Department mentioned by Xiahou, I believe it is under the control of the feds not the state. It is the state organization of the federal department; not a separate state-run department of Homeland Security for Louisiana. ~;) I could be wrong, though. Unless Redleg says I'm wrong, in which case I'm pretty much guaranteed to be right
Nope, wrong. It's totally under the control of Louisiana. http://www.loep.state.la.us/
The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (LHLS & EP); formally the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness (LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of 1950 and is under the Louisiana Military Department. In 1976 LHLS & EP via the Louisiana government reorganization, was moved to the Department of Public Safety (DPS). In 1990 LHLS & EP was transferred again to the Military Department. In 2003 the Agency name was changed to the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, reflecting the additional responsibilities to the State and her citizens.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
As I said, I thought it possible that I was wrong.
I noticed in looking through that site, that the department is part of the Military department of Louisiana. It is run by the Louisiana Adjutant General, who is also the head of the Louisiana National Guard. He lives and works... in New Orleans out of the Jackson Barracks. I wonder how much effect that had on the C&C in New Orleans, on the Guard response? If the command and control for the Louisiana Guard was located in New Orleans, that must have created some problems.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
An informative article on this from the Wall Street Journal.
A few very relevant tidbits:
Quote:
In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.
Quote:
A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.
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In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.
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The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.
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Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.
In short, an enormous failure to implement the detailed plan which would have saved many people, and a failure to learn from the past.
Crazed Rabbit
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
As for the state Homeland Security Department mentioned by Xiahou, I believe it is under the control of the feds not the state. It is the state organization of the federal department; not a separate state-run department of Homeland Security for Louisiana. ~;) I could be wrong, though. Unless Redleg says I'm wrong, in which case I'm pretty much guaranteed to be right.
LOL - seems to me someone has a problem with being told they are incorrect.
:help:
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
LOL - seems to me someone has a problem with being told they are incorrect.
:help:
Well, what do we have here? Could it be someone editing out part of a post and then making a personal attack over the edited portion?
You really need to grow up, Redleg; or seek psychiatric care before you hurt yourself. There are 12 year old posters in these forums who act more adult than you do.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
Well, what do we have here? Could it be someone editing out part of a post and then making a personal attack over the edited portion?
Actually I edit out the insult. And put that in place - which is the same type of statement as I quoted of yours.
Quote:
You really need to grow up, Redleg; or seek psychiatric care before you hurt yourself. There are 12 year old posters in these forums who act more adult than you do.
Now that statement is uncalled for and shows a maturity level way beneath my own. Maybe you should take your own advice here also.
:help:
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I think we can find the truth in the difference between Mississippi and Loiusiana. Mississippi did all right, while LA did terrible. Since Bush was the President for both of them, the main difference must be in the local (where the mayor did not implement the evacuation plan) and state (where the governor wrung her hands for 24 hours before making a decision).
Mississippi and Alabama were not hit nearly as hard as Louisiana. You can see that if you study the various disaster area maps of the Gulf region. Most importantly, Mississippi had little flooding, and the flooding that took place was in coastal areas that are thinly populated and easily evacuated and controlled. And for the record, this is what Mississippi's Senator Trent Lott (R) had to say about Michael Brown on CBS:
'If he doesn't solve a couple of problems that we've got right now, he ain't going to be able to hold the job, because what I'm going to do to him ain't going to be pretty.'
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Even noted CIA agent-outer Bob Novak is suggesting Brown's removal:
The Democrats on the ground, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, have done little to commend themselves. But that does not excuse the federal performance, in the candid opinion of many Republicans. To start with, these Republicans talk about taking FEMA back from the Homeland Security Department. They agree that heads must roll, certainly Brown's and possibly Chertoff's.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
And for the record, this is what Mississippi's Senator Trent Lott (R) had to say about Michael Brown on CBS:
'If he doesn't solve a couple of problems that we've got right now, he ain't going to be able to hold the job, because what I'm going to do to him ain't going to be pretty.'
I agree.
I don't know about Chertoff, but he wasn't doing great.
Crazed Rabbit
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I agree.
I don't know about Chertoff, but he wasn't doing great.
Crazed Rabbit
I agree too. Why are we so apprehensive to swing the ax on these incompetent people? This is not the first time Brown has screwed up. If I were a week late for a deadline my job would be in jeopardy.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
As I said in the other thread, having put his arm around Brown while touring the relief effort in Alabama and having said, on camera, "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job!" there is not a rat's chance in hell that Bush is going to admit he made a mistake and fire the guy. Bush has never admitted any culpability for anything. The words "I made a mistake" will never issue from his mouth. Even if he wanted to say so, Rove and the rest of the Bush handlers wouldn't allow it. Bush is infallible. Since he appointed Brown; Brown must be infallible too. Bush said he's doing a good job; so he must be doing a good job. End of story. The entire disaster will be pinned on the only partially to blame Democrats in state and local government in Louisiana. If a way can be found, and problems in Republican run Alabama and Mississippi will be blamed on Democrats too. Probably something along the lines of "New Orleans sucked all of our resources away from Mississippi and Alabama" or some other nonsense.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
When it comes to blame this is a case of “if the shoe fits” but this is a shoe that fits a lot of guilty feet. Democrats were in charge of NO but are only partly to blame but I don’t think anyone will escape some prosecution. I would still like to see some people step down from office for incompetence or some people get sacked for being incompetent.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Aren't most appointments given to political flunkies? If so, then isn't making your boss look bad worse than utter incompetence at your appointed position? If Brown gets canned, the real reason will be the drop in Bush's poll values, not the dead people in New Orleans.
Since Bush has been in office, who has he fired, aside from dissenters (Powell, O'Neill)? Drink the Kool-Aid, stay the course, and your job is safe. Disagree with the administration, now that's grounds for removal!
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Brown now is being recalled back to DC, Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad Allen is now in charge on-site.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/...ton/index.html
Not sure if they think he is no longer needed there, or if they are just trying to get him out of the public eye.
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Re: Head of FEMA was fired from his last job (organizing horse shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
Brown now is being recalled back to DC, Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad Allen is now in charge on-site.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/...ton/index.html
Not sure if they think he is no longer needed there, or if they are just trying to get him out of the public eye.
Or maybe they want someone half competant in charge...
Might be being a bit hopeful though. They probably just want him out of the public eye.