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Stat! Use the paddles! Clear! beep beep beep.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
I thought I just read something that I agreed with Panzer... oh there it is... oww there is a huge pain in my left arm like someone has put it in a vice and ohhh look at the light
beeeeeeeeepppppppppppppppp. St Peter :book2: hmmm this :angel: or that :devil: ... hmmm
====
Although it almost kills me to admit it, I agree with Panzer.
If you can do it responsibly, and it is fun responsibly, why should you rely exclusively on other things that are fun? Its a different type of fun, that's why people do them.
Exactly. Is reading a book escapism? What about video games? Computers? The internet?~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
Drink a beer, have a toke, watch a ball game, have sex, eat a hot dog. Whatever. All of them are great. And all of them can destroy your life if you take them to excess.
That is the key: excess.
Apples and oranges. Reading a book or playing a video game does not alter your state of mind.
Why do you drink at a social gathering.. or alone? To change yourself. I dont need to change my state of mind to have a good time or enjoy life. Im not saying its bad to do so either..
This situation has to be fixed.. and fast! Hmm.. ok here we go:Quote:
Although it almost kills me to admit it, I agree with Panzer.
German soldiers were 10 times better than Australian soldiers in WW2.
That should remedy this strange occurance of agreement. ;)
You answered your own argument. If I had an enjoyable life... I wouldn't need drugs. But having an enjoyable life is pretty rare, and pretty subjective isn't it Panzer?Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
If we are talking snappier uniforms, salutes and lack of back chat to officers then yes the German soldiers were 10 times better. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
absolutely agreed with most what you say, and i can't furnish you with precise data, though according to my friend, a psychiatric doctor studying and working closely with these things, he says the evidence is pretty clear that although MJ doesn't cause psychiatric illnesses, it is a trigger if there is an underlying tendency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
decent overview from the British Medical Journal here:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte.../325/7374/1183
a problem, currently in both alcohol and MJ is a trend towards strength. beers and alcohopops are becoming stronger. In the UK, a demographic change of ale towards lager seems innocuous enough. Ale's 20 years ago were at an average of 3.4%, while premium lagers now are up at 4.8-5%.
In a similar, though even more extreme way brands of dope have gained strength, hydroponic skunks and so on. some estimates have put the increase since the 60s at 6-7fold, but it's hard to gauge.
a problem, currently in both alcohol and MJ is a trend towards strength. beers and alcohopops are becoming stronger. In the UK, a demographic change of ale towards lager seems innocuous enough. Ale's 20 years ago were at an average of 3.4%, while premium lagers now are up at 4.8-5%.
Yet if you look further back than 20 years many beers were stronger than the 4.8-5% and if you look into it , it was normal to drink a gallon a day of 8% beer starting with breakfast . Ever drunk any of the Trappist stuff ? Not surprising they have a vow of silence , who knows what sort of drunken rubbish they would be talking after drinking that .~;)
Oh and alcopops are not stronger , just a more expensive way of buying spirits diluted with fizzy stuff , a successful marketing ploy to exploit the idiots .
Guys we can't discuss subjective oppinions, such as smell. We can use them as arguments but we can't tell another that he is wrong for his smell of things.
Personally I prefer pot-smell over tobacco (reversed if it is unburnt though, then tobacco is very pleasing to my nostrils).
I'm an odd person when it comes to the use of pot. I have always been an adamant anti-smoker (personally, couldn't care less about others), but I did smoke that. Perhaps that was part of my reason for stopping? I don't know.
While I think cancer has a higher chance of settling in in your lungs if you smoke pot (you can eat and drink it too, which are very safe ways), it is certain that alcohol will destroy your liver at some point. Alcohol slowly destroys it, it is not based on chance as with cancer. Thus if you a are a heavy drinker you shold be very concerned really. Some can take much more than others in regards to liverdestruction but it will come eventually.
Not so with the cancer. So I think the point goes to pot there.
Alcohol doesn't make you aggressive per se, but you are going to react much stronger. You might flinch and become much more fearful (and we all know the crying drunk right?) or you might react with aggression to something that would only slightly annoy you.
I have never been in a fight I did anything to start (I had to defend myself from unprovoked attacks though), but once when I was drunk I nearly exploded with anger when a guy kept pushing me in the back (not intentionally of course). Had I not been a normally extremely calm guy I think I would have flattened him (he was even more drunk than me so I think it is a safe bet). That wa not normal an I would never have reacted similarly if I was sober.
But once when I was stoned a guy intentionally pissed on my leg, and I couldn't help but laugh at it, it just seemed so increadibly stupid and silly. I think had I been drunk I would have gone at his throat right away. Had I been sober I think I would have too.
Add to that that I have seen far too much alcoholaffected aggression caused by normally calm guys.
Alcohol makes you unstable if you drink above a certain limit.
On the other hand you CAN get psychoses from pot, but they are rare and not much of a factor in this discussion.
From personal experience I will say that the only reason to not TRY pot or similar product (MJ, hashis ect ect) is because it is illegal. Not other point really as a single spliff simply don't do damage of any kind worth mentioning. To say it would lead to many more is wrong as you just need to be firm on it, like with alcohol or cakes or soda or too much food... You get the point.
Personally I would prefer it getting lagalized. Earn money from it and control it. Perfect.
Oh will that cause widespread usage??? Not at all, Holland has one of the lowest 'tried' rates for pot in Europe.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
~:cheers:Quote:
Personally I would prefer it getting lagalized. Earn money from it and control it. Perfect.
It doesn't matter.Quote:
Oh will that cause widespread usage???
Do most of you know this war on drugs started as a form of racism and an excuse to send Mexican immigrants back to Mexico? The guy who started it was a bureacrat whos main interest was making his bureau bigger.Quote:
LaGuardia Report Turns 50:
The massive research project was carried out by a team of scientists from the New York Academy of Medicine and the commissioners of the New York Departments of Correction, Health, and Hospitals. It was the most thorough, extensive marijuana fact-finding mission since the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission released its monumental report in 1894.
The LaGuardia Report was comprised of a series of studies -- from sociological observations to controlled, scientific studies involving the consumption of marijuana by subjects in a laboratory setting. Among the report's conclusions:
Mental Illness -- "Indulgence in marihuana does not appear to result in mental deterioration. ... Marihuana does not change the basic personality structure of the individual. It lessens inhibition and this brings out what is latent in his thoughts and emotions but it does not evoke responses which would otherwise be totally alien to him."
Violence -- "There was no aggressive or violent behavior observed."
Crime -- "Marihuana is not the determining factor in the commission of major crimes. Juvenile delinquency is not associated with the practice of smoking marihuana."
Addiction -- "The practice of smoking marihuana does not lead to addiction in the medical sense of the word."
Gateway to Hard Drugs -- "We have been unable to confirm ... that marihuana smoking is the first step in the use of such drugs as cocaine, morphine, and heroin. The instances are extremely rare where the habit of marihuana smoking is associated with addiction to these other narcotics."
In sum, the report stressed, "The publicity concerning the catastrophic effects of marihuana smoking in New York City is unfounded." The depth and thoroughness of the study make these conclusions relevant beyond 1940s New York.
The LaGuardia Report provided invaluable descriptive data and dispelled many of the myths which led to the prohibition of marijuana. Nevertheless, it was essentially ignored and had virtually no effect on the burgeoning national policy of prohibition.
It seems cocaine was fine until rumors of cocaine crazed negroes rapping white women and impervious to bullets started appearing in places like the New York Times. I see not much has changed since then.~D
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...ine_fiends.htmQuote:
NEGRO COCAINE "FIENDS" NEW SOUTHERN MENACE
New York Times, Sunday February 8, 1914
Murder and Insanity Increasing Among Lower Class Because They Have Taken to "Sniffing" Since Being Deprived of Whisky by Prohibition
Edward Huntington Williams, M.D.
For some years there have been rumors about the increase in drug taking in the South-vague, but always insistent rumors that the addiction to such drugs as morphine and cocaine was becoming a veritable curse to the colored race in certain regions. Some of these reports read like the wildest flights of a sensational fiction writer. Stories of cocaine orgies and "sniffing parties" followed by wholesale murders seem like lurid journalism of the yellowest variety
But these comparisons, although sufficiently startling, fail to show the extent of drug addiction in the South. For most of these insane drug users, both North and South, were the victims of morphine; whereas the negro drug "fiend" uses cocaine almost exclusively.
Proof against Bullets.
But the drug produces several other conditions which make the "fiend" a peculiarly dangerous criminal. One of these conditions is a temporary immunity to shock--a resistance to the knockdown effects of fatal wounds.
Bullets fired into vital parts, that would drop a sane man in his tracks, fail to check the "fiend"--fail to stop his rush or weaken his attack.
A few weeks ago Dr. Crile's method of preventing shock in anaesthetized patients by use of a cocaine preparation was described in these columns. A similar fortification against this condition seems to be produced in the cocaine-sniffing negro.
Why Do They Do It?
Many of the negroes, even those who have not yet become addicted, appreciate the frightful penalty of dabbling with the drug. Why, then do so many of them "dabble"?
There are various facts that suggest an answer to this question, and evidence in the form or the opinions of physicians, officers, and the cocaine users themselves, that supports these facts. The "fiend" when questioned, frequently gives his reason in this brief sentence: ''Cause I couldn't git nothin' else, boss." That seems to be the crux of the whole matter.
A brief survey of conditions in the South and a bit of recent legislative history make it perfectly evident why the negro "couldn't git nothin' else."
But meanwhile these politicians have forced a new and terrible form of slavery upon thousands of colored men--a hideous bondage from which they cannot escape by mere proclamation or civil war.
A History of U.S. Drug Laws
- or -
How did we get into this mess? Part 1: 1898-1933
http://www.dpft.org/history.html
And heres the racism in the pot laws
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...st12000/11.htmQuote:
Even when it was not against the law, marijuana was used by very few Americans. Those who used it were typically from minority groups like the Mexicans and the Negroes, and this made them and their drug preferences highly visible. The fact that these people smoked marijuana for pleasure made marijuana a vice that was doubly suspect, since the American work ethic never recognized anything like an "artificial paradise".
Marihuana and Violence
As the most conspicuous users of marihuana, Mexicans were oftentimes accused of being incited to violence by the drug. A letter written in 1911 by the American consul at Nogales, Mexico, stated that marihuana "causes the smoker to become exceedingly pugnacious and to run amuck without discrimination." [7] A Texas police captain claimed that under marihuana's baneful influence, Mexicans became "very violent, especially when they become angry and will attack an officer even if a gun is drawn on him. They seem to have no fear, I have also noted that when under the influence of this weed they have enormous strength and that it will take several men to handle one man while under ordinary circumstances one man could handle him with ease." [8]
Prison officials throughout the southwest had no doubt about marihuana's capacity to provoke violence. In the words of the warden of the state prison in Yuma, Arizona: "Under its baseful influence reckless men become bloodthirsty, terribly daring, and dangerous to an uncontrollable degree." [9]
The Butte Montana Standard reflected the thinking of the state's legislators when they outlawed marihuana in 1927:
When some beet field peon takes a few traces of this stuff... he thinks he has just been elected president of Mexico, so he starts out to execute all his political enemies." [10]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
Maybe your standerds are to high
Once again I will reiterate that I've never witnessed alcohol-related violence. Once my alcoholic roomate burst into my room and started yelling and punching the wall over some silly drama to do with some girl (which eventually proved to be a misunderstanding), and given the hour that was probably after six or eight 40's.
On the other hand, I will never forget the time a son of a friend of the family came to Guadalajara and I showed him around the town. We were seated in an outdoor cafe in the middle of the day. Some old bedraggled homeless guy came up to the railing and started talking shit to us in Spanish, and I SHIT YOU NOT, this guy came THIS CLOSE to jumping the bleeping railing and stomping on this poor old homeless guy in the middle of this huge bleeping plaza. He was literally looking over at me to see if I would come too. STONE COLD SOBER.
I suppose you might chalk that up to the lingering effects of heavy LSD use when he was younger, though.
DA
~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by strike for the south
That's why I said that having an enjoyable life is subjective. But it's also very rare. I hate how I am forced to be redundant all the time just so people understand what the hell I'm talking about.
so what do you want out of life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
Also, Panzer: for me, book-reading v. substance-use in moderation is apples to apples. When you read a book you're high on dopamine, when you go for a run you're high on endorphins, when you bungee jump you're high in adrenaline.
DA
How do you know its very rare it is subjective isnt it~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
Question: Are you effectivly saying that Germans were bad fighters in WWII or just saying that their politics were bad or somthing totally differant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Well said DA, very very trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
I've seen way too much; I've seen people almost killed because they got drunk and pissed off a bigger, stronger drunk. I've also seen drunks, and sober alcoholics, send their wimmen to the emergency room or had the cops come.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Arroyo
No doubtQuote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
ichi:bow:
Yep, I would wager most people are not happy or content. Hence the :barrel:. If that gets you through your day, then have at it.Quote:
You answered your own argument. If I had an enjoyable life... I wouldn't need drugs. But having an enjoyable life is pretty rare, and pretty subjective isn't it Panzer?
Well not exactly. Reading a book, running, or even bungee jumping are all done without changing your state of mind. Natural chemical shifts are not comparable to getting "high" when refering to alcohol or pot. A good test is whether you can stop what you are doing and function in a normal manner withen seconds.Quote:
Also, Panzer: for me, book-reading v. substance-use in moderation is apples to apples. When you read a book you're high on dopamine, when you go for a run you're high on endorphins, when you bungee jump you're high in adrenaline.
Ask yourself why you spend your hard earned money to drink or smoke pot. Why do you need to change your state of mind that severly if you are already happy? Whether its to escape from life for a little while, to help you be comfortable in social situations, or to have fun(or make things seem fun)... its all about changing your state of mind. Why would you do that if your original state of mind was enjoyable?
I used to get high on God. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Some people feel socially pushed to indulge in those activities. I know for myself that I felt a strong urge to drink myself silly because ALL people talked about after weekends was how drunk they got, and how cool it was. Even if you are intellectually superior to these people, which I feel I was, they're going to have an influence on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
I honestly don't feel that alcohol alters my state of mind nor does it make me happier. It rather just makes me dizzy and more forward. I feel like I can touch some girls b00b and then not care about it.
Quote:
Reading a book, running, or even bungee jumping are all done without changing your state of mind. Natural chemical shifts are not comparable to getting "high" when refering to alcohol or pot. A good test is whether you can stop what you are doing and function in a normal manner withen seconds.
Bungee jumping doesnt change your state of mind? Your still using an artificial stimulus to make these chemical shifts. Also it will take you more than a few seconds to recover from bungee jumping. Heck I even get high on playing VI sometimes. I can smoke pot and do anything I normally do perfectly fine. Two beers and Im useless. Its funny I love the show Law and Order. What do the lawyers , judges and cops do at the end of every case? Why they go out and hoist a few.
I find that it takes more alcohol than weed to get me useless... I can still operate relatively well after a half bottle of Scotch, but after some pot, then I'm gone...
I venture you drink more often than you smoke. Anyone who can still operate relatively well after a half bottle of Scotch better check into AA ~DQuote:
I find that it takes more alcohol than weed to get me useless... I can still operate relatively well after a half bottle of Scotch, but after some pot, then I'm gone...
PJ, your comments on the need to pay money in order to get high is the main reason I don't smoke reguaulry myself. It's just to expensive. And yes, pot helps people escape. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it isn't all the time.
Mabye, but its the persons choice. I probably wouldn't have tried pot if my friends didn't smoke, but they didn't force me. Peer pressure is a too often used excuse, and I find it BS.Quote:
Some people feel socially pushed to indulge in those activities. I know for myself that I felt a strong urge to drink myself silly because ALL people talked about after weekends was how drunk they got, and how cool it was. Even if you are intellectually superior to these people, which I feel I was, they're going to have an influence on you.
No that the Germans had a different form of discipline which was far more visisble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
I suggest you read up about Australians from the Boer War onwards... an officiers nightmare if you were incompetent.
That is not the only cause for drinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
I drink beer for the taste. Whenever I go somewhere I try to get some local beer at least once (if it is crap I leave it alone afterwards of course). I like to think of myself as having good taste in beers. I must admit that I prefer eastern (eastern Europe, called Pilsners because of the region Pilsn) beers a lot, their strong bitterness and rather light taste while long aftertaste is very pleasant. But I also like the soft almost creamy Bavarian beers and a good British ale. I don't like the strong, heavy and often thick Scottish and Irish beers. I can enjoy a Kilkenny now and then though. And I think the sweet and fruity Belgian beers are often too much.
And yes, alcohol is a very important part of the taste. I have tried a lot of either light or non-alcoholic beers, and never have I tried one that I would consider better than a good mediocre beer. So the taste of alcohol is also a reason for drinking.
I must say that pot can't be said to be exactly tasty or similar, it is for pure highs.
Of course I drink heavily at parties and such, but that can be attributed to the relaxed state you get in, and the slower pace of events. Not to say that many things are simply more fun (see similarities to pot?). Besides alcohol contains good deal of energy (half again as much as fat) so you will often be able to stay up longer when drunk... That can of course tip over, so that if you are already tired before drinking you will fall asleep faster, or if you consume too much you will also fall asleep. Careful balance.
I don't drink much. In reference to the other altered state, I can. I know many who can, and many who can't, so I'm not sure I agree that this would be such a good test. Effects vary from person to person, amount consumed, length of time the person has been a regular consumer, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
For a few, the affects of marijuana might seem "severe," but I would guess that most would consider the effects quite mild. To me, it is a subtle, mellow effect. Admittedly, it's been quite a long time since I've enjoyed it; my current circumstances are not compatible with that activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Some of us enjoy contrasting states of mind, particularly when surroundings or circumstances are enhanced by it. I would not partoke if visiting my family, for example (I take multiple aspirins for that), but if I was going on a backpack trip, watching sunsets from atop a mountain overlooking a lake ... you dig?Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
For others, it's not so easy to change their surroundings by going somewhere more pleasant. Changing one's state of mind can make unpleasant surroundings or circumstances more bearable, or more interesting. This can be helpful, or harmful, depending on a number of factors.
but if I was going on a backpack trip, watching sunsets from atop a mountain overlooking a lake ... you dig?
yep always bring a shovel when backpacking .~;)
A special high I think all should try to experience is a full solar eclipse... It is honestly very strange. You do go all giddy and silly. It is hard to explain, but it is great fun and you do feel special that you have witnessed that.
I'm waiting with great hope for the next full eclipse to come to Europe in a few years. Saw the one that passed through northern France in 99 (in Verdun of all places).
I think that both are bad in excess but ok if used responsibly. Some people can handle their “high” and others cant. That’s where things get tricky, we can’t regulate laws for each person, “you’re a mean drunk, no booze for you.” or “Sorry, when you get high you are too lazy, its illegal for you.” I’m ok with both being legal and letting people figure it out for themselves but that is kind of irresponsible because I just know letting some people have a drug is like handing them a pair of scissors and telling them to run with um.
Also, I think weed could be just as harmful statistically as alcohol if it was legal and given a chance to affect more people. Imagine if all the millions of people having a drink after work were smoking a fatty instead. Weed alters your mood, releases inhibitions, effects reflexes, etc. It has been my experience that weed is used by people that are usually more prepared for it and are somewhere safe, where alcohol is used anywhere anytime by anyone. I think it is easy to get more drunk than you plan because it takes longer to affect you and when you are thirsty you want to drink and the punch of alcohol can be covered with yummy flavors, I have seen (and been one of the) people drink way more than they planned for all those reasons. But I don’t know anyone that got too high because it tasted good - Loooooong drag… hold it… cough… hold it… let it out… ... ... man, that tasted like Oreos, gimme some more!~D
Anyway, moderation and self-control are key.~:cheers:
Oh yes. I've only smoked once -- on my last birthday. I only drink in the weekends, though, and rarely to the extent of a half bottle of Scotch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I've seen what Pot did last weekend...it's quite funny if you're not involved. It seems to really muff up the smoker's memory in some cases...I mean these people were wasted and couldn't remember it. Don't ask me why but that's the way it was. Oh and a little alchohol is great on girls ~D
Well, booze never inspired a classic like this.~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Madness
Does anyone know the real truth to why MJ is illegal in the US (outlawed in 1937)? I've heard both that the alchohol companies and textile companies wanted it banned for competition reasons, but that might just stories told by weed-induced paranoids.~;)
Personally, I think that if one is legal than both should be legal. Booze is my drug of choice, it is legal (call me a upstanding citizen...). Make them both legal to 18+, regulated, taxed, and monitored. Maybe even allow "home-brew", for those that want to grow their own private stash. What's the cost to society for arresting/prosecuting/jailing otherwise peaceful potheads? Both have their dangers to society, but I don't think banning both would be beneficial. Moderation, as always, is the key.
~:cheers: ~:smoking: :medievalcheers: :pimp: :barrel:
The correct answer of course is Gah! Neither are bad for society. Drugs don't kill, steal, cause road accidents or break window panes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Sex -- now there is a dangerous addiction...~:cool:
You know it is illegal to have weed on you in Denmark, but it is not illegal to smoke it.:dizzy2:
So being high is not illegal at all. In fact if the police is coming at you, you better smoke that spliff fast (though in most cases they just take it say "bad man... BAAAD MAN! No more weed for you").
How many people here know the reason for the name Coca Cola? *if you know don't tell :lipsrsealed:*
My experience with weed doesn't leave a hole in my memory any deeper than what alcohol does on a similar high. Butthe fact is it is hard to get just a little affected by weed, while you can get only warm or even just tired of alcohol. So one should treat every time people smoke weed as being quite drunk. Being quite drunk does tend to make the memory go a bit dim.
After all it is a standing joke that every time you drink a shot you kill X amount of braincells. A joke that gets more used the more drunk your company is.
'Quote:
Butthe fact is it is hard to get just a little affected by weed, while you can get only warm or even just tired of alcohol.
BS. I can smoke weed and have it have no effect at all on me unless its good. Even then I ever get as high as I do on two beers no matter how much I smoke.
I think just about everyone knows the answer to that.Quote:
How many people here know the reason for the name Coca Cola?
Again theres little comparison between the two highs.Quote:
So one should treat every time people smoke weed as being quite drunk
That type of legal absurdity is well spreaded through the world...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
Yeah, that movie was hilarious. I watched the recolored version with my family, and it was quite funny how each person's puff of smoke had different colors. Plus the extra mini documentary "Granpa Ganga" was hilarious. ~DQuote:
Well, booze never inspired a classic like this. ~D
Isn't that more value for money ?? ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman