In which department were the 'Barbarians' undeveloped compared to the civilised?

I apologize, I didn't mean to say Greeks sacrificed humans, rather that Romans did. I should have specified that. :bow:

Well the columns do all point inwards just slightly. This would ultimately mean that they do converge on a single point (if they were (magically ~D ) extended upwards). I think I've read that it would be approximately one mile above the parthenon that they would meet. That does technically mean that they would come together (from the four sides of the structure) as a "pyramid", even if it would be so strange looking that it wouldn't necessarily remind you of a pyramid.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the actual pyramids mind you. Just architectural refinements of the parthenon itself.

the greeks were not the sole practicers of democracy, didn't the etruscians use democracy too?

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Originally Posted by hellenes

But Ranika with the Celts being so advanced why the Romans called them barbarian (being barbarian themselves: ΠΑΣ ΜΗ ΕΛΛΗΝ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ) and not the Hellenes? The war against the Hellenic states wasnt less ferocious and tough (espesially against Makedonian Hellenes) there was a decent amount of hate but the Romans didnt view/portray the Hellenes as unwashed barbarians but they did with the Celts...

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Because culturally the Romans were closer to the Greeks. Also until the Roman empire was well into its decline Rome had only been sacked once. This was done by Celts and the memory haunted the Romans for a long time. Fear and hate go hand in hand.

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Did Celts have the level and complexity of Athenian Democracy?

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Ranika is better able to answer this than I am, but I think so. After all, Athens was just one city while the Audui coalition spanned several (meaning they must have had multiple levels of governement). I doubt it was as democratic as Athens, but then neither was Rome, so this does not make the Celts less civilized.

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Did they have the combination of steel discipline, simplicity and advancement of the Spartan state?

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No. Did Athens?

(Incidentally, Sparta didn't have the level and complexity of Athenian Democracy either.)

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Did they have Alexander? Plato? Theater? OLYMPIC GAMES?

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They did not have Alexander, but I fail to see how this counts as cultural advancement.

Neither did they have Plato, but then Chinese didn't either. Does that make them less civilized? I recall from earlier discussions on this forum that Gaulic druids were considered quite capable philosphers.

They did not have the Olympic Games, but they had something similar. (Though it had less prestige than the games. This is also yet another thing that China didn't have around this time.)

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We all know where is the cradle of modern european civilisation...

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Since when is the opinion of the uneducated masses the same as the truth?

Remember that all Western European states (with the exception of Greece) originated from the Barbarians that overran the Roman Empire. Are you telling me that their entire heritage was forgotten during the Renaissance?

What is considered civilized is a sort of fashion-thing (think of human sacrifice, slave labour or gladiatorial fights) and ever since the Renaissance the Greeks and Romans are "in". Yet that doesn't mean their opponents were uncultured "barbarians". The Celts could have taught the Greeks and Romans a lesson or two, and not just in warfare. The Romans certainly learned part of that lesson, and used it to conquer the world.

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After all, Athens was just one city while the Audui coalition spanned several (meaning they must have had multiple levels of governement).

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An interest thing that people forget is that Athens had at least two regional government levels (Athens may have only been one city but Attica certainly included several formerly independent towns: Marathon, Rhamnus, Eleusis etc.) and for the 4th century at least the additional supra structure of her second league and it’s synod as well.

Teleklos Archelaou

I did not mean to doubt the fact the columns did if projected meet an origin point, but rather just to doubt that this implied any connection with Egypt or star patterns.

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

I apologize, I didn't mean to say Greeks sacrificed humans, rather that Romans did. I should have specified that. :bow:

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Human sacrifices in roman history were very rare and sporadic and finally prohibited by the senate 97 BC in all terrotories under roman rule.


Why are many peolple today still so obsesed by the obviously stupid common roman definition of the term "barbarian" and use it to judge this very different cultures? I´ve hardly found it used in the works of roman historians I`ve read, not even in propaganda. And the ones that really try to describe and explain other cultures for their readers also don`t paint them as inferior and show the strenghts of them too.

And what modern historians paint an unfair and biased view towards civilized people? I don`t know exactly what historians in other countrys are writting about but I don`t know one who provides an unfair view of none graeco-romans. In the books I know the authors are either trying to be strictly neutral and scientific or fascinated and in love with the culture they are dealing with.

Well I expected the responses in a mod called Europa Barbarorum thread ~:rolleyes: ~:rolleyes: ~:rolleyes:
But I must assure you that I had no intention of causing any kind of trouble to the hard working modders and that I accept 100% that the Roman story about the Celts was hugely biased.
As far as the "civilisation" is concerned Steppe Merc covered it for me. I was just confused with the wealth of information about the development of the Celts that I wanted to see the opinion of Celtic specialists about what they consider level of advance.
The important difference of Democracy and the Republic was well put by Rosarcux here https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...655#post168655 ...

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by hellenes

As far as the "civilisation" is concerned Steppe Merc covered it for me.

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I did? ~:confused:

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

I did? ~:confused:

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ooops sorry confused your avatar and Simetricals...~:eek: ~:eek: ~:rolleyes: ~:rolleyes:

Hellenes

Us long haired barbarians look all the same. ~;)

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Originally Posted by cunctator

Human sacrifices in roman history were very rare and sporadic and finally prohibited by the senate 97 BC in all terrotories under roman rule.

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Barbarian leaders were captured on campaign and shipped back to be ceremoniously slaughtered in Rome, Gauls and Iberians especially.

Is the slaying of captured enemies (even after parading them through the streets) the same thing as human sacrifice? ~:confused:

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Originally Posted by conon394

An interest thing that people forget is that Athens had at least two regional government levels (Athens may have only been one city but Attica certainly included several formerly independent towns: Marathon, Rhamnus, Eleusis etc.) and for the 4th century at least the additional supra structure of her second league and it’s synod as well.

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I stand corrected. :bow:

I think we should be very careful when giving our opinion about civilized!

At least in those days you killed someone face to face.
Now We're sitting in bombers waiting to push a button that can kill thouzands in one blow.

Now what’s so civilized about that?

If you ask me mankind has never been civilized.
We just always thought we where.

ps: sry about my English.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Is the slaying of captured enemies (even after parading them through the streets) the same thing as human sacrifice? ~:confused:

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Not in my mind, unless they did it to honor a certain god...

Current politics have no place here. "Barbarian" was an ancient term with none of the connotations we give it today. What is clear is that we, modern people, have as a whole a misconception about who the "barbarians" were because the victors of conflicts labelled them as such. Bringing modern politics here was a bad idea. Next time I will delete such posts as trolling.