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On the contrary. They have already done much about it: sent a loud and clear message that the desecration of Islam will not go unanswered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beorhtwulf
Everyone is going to think twice now before trying to desecrate Islam again.
Of course for those who "forget" that the desecration will be answered, I'm sure the reminders will be swiftly forthcoming in any future incidents.:2thumbsup:
Well, why don't you skip the gratuitous anti-imperialism and cut to the bone then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Do you think Islam is a force for much-needed social change in the Arab world or not?
Considering what they view as desecration, and what is done against other religions with no backlash, IMO it is an extreme reaction, and one that is not condusive to much of Europe. They can scream and shout, but I don't see why I should have kid gloves around their beliefs to the any more than our society has concerning ones that have been resident here for over 1,000 years. :furious3:
~:smoking:
Do you think it's the root of all ills therein ?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
And please stop putting words in my mouth.
Please stop dodging the issue and answer my question: Do you think Islam is a force for much-needed social change in the Arab world or not? And please elaborate on your answer, in the same way as I have done. Otherwise this discussion is going nowhere. I don't plan on debating abstract notions of 'racism' and 'imperialism' till kingdom come.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Well, I'm not one for shirking an opportunity to look like a prat, so there's my :2cents:
The Middle East stands on the silk and spice trade from the Far East, and although much is arid there are river valleys were conditions are far more pleasant. This has been the case probably since the Babylonians were around.
The region also inherited much of the learnings of Greece and Rome after The Byzantium Empire fell - teachings that did not reappear in the west for centuries.
So, wealth, fertile valleys and masses of educational material: what the hell went wrong?
Arguably every benefit was at their feet - far more leisure time than was had in the West for the rich, and far more opportunities to build on the findings of the past.
East and West both fought masses of wars, both had at least at some point religions that were utterly intolerant - in fact until recently far more true of the West than the East, which was relatively enlightened in many ways.
So is that the nugget that is needed?
When Islam was ascending, they were relatively benign: tolerance of others - as long as they paid taxes the locals were left alone. The Christians at the time were loosing, and so were extremists - the Spanish Inquisition for example. Then came the change: Islam went into territorial decline. The Ottoman Empire receded from all the lands it had conquered, and eventually ceased to exist all together. In this time, freedoms were slowly won in Western Europe until we emerge into the pretty secular world we now inhabit. Islam has gotten more and more extreme, ending up with religious genocide of 1.2 million Christians under the Ottomans.
Whereas West Europe had to reinvent much of what was lost, Islam already had it, and appears to have lost the desire to search for any more knowledge (rather like the complacency of the Chinese prior to the Gunboat diplomacy of the West).
Now, fracticious little states squabble like children in the sand. Most are not countries as such, as all were made and most have greater centifugal forces than any other. Their "dark matter" is religion: it focuses their burning hatred against all those that wronged them, and prevented the triumphant spread of their culture and religion (indeed is now eroding their own with foreign values - and as such regardless of what they are are hated / feared as they are often being forced on the locals).
Can Islam be salvaged? Of course - look at those moderates in the West. Although they are not pleased with the cartoons for example most are not advocating that all Westeners die. With a few more generations they will be more integrated with Western culture and will accept our values as opposed to clinging with tenacity to those their parents brought with them as reminders of their homeland.
Whether it can in the areas we endearingly call the Middle East is a different matter. So many factors reenforce the slant of islam that is present only a massive change will enable those that live there to look forwards and understand their fellow man instead of looking back to a perceived golden age and hating the leaders of the present.
~:smoking:
This is my hope as well: the coming of a European Islam that is embedded in Western society and re-imported into the Arab world. Then maybe in the long run it will become a force for progress, though in the end I would prefer it to just disappear from politics and become a sort of folklore in the same way Christianity has become mostly folklore.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Unfortunately that is not going to happen for a long time. Most islamic states are still in a state of regression or stagnation, ruled by dictators and not democratically governed. They have virtually no womens rights, draconian judicial systems and the majority of the population living in abject poverty, which always leads a helping hand to any kind of extremism. Even Turkey which is moderately westernised has it's fair share of extremists. While the average person would love to live under a regime like the Taliban and any attempt at democracy has to include a restriction in civil liberties for women and the fundamentals of sharia law, how can democracy be achieved? The attempts at democracy in Iraq are totally forced. The whole situation is extremely fragile. If western forces were pulled out, even in the next two years, I have no doubt that the entire process would fall apart and the country erupt into civil war.
The whole situation in Iraq is doomed...I still don't know why we're there...oil? anyone?
The last time I was working in and around coffee plantations my crew was earning $3 Australian each per day in Sumatra. The local coffee farmers were on a similar overall amount. Very friendly bunch most of them they offered fresh coffee straight from the plantation, except for the one farmer that threatened my crew with a machete. And there was that one meeting which we had out on a track with a dozen local farmers all armed with machetes who were complaining about what we were doing (mind you a farmer with a machete is like an engineer with a pocket protector and a calculator, just business tools)... in the end of the day both us and them agreed it was the Javanese administration that was at fault for not keeping everyone informed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Yes the success or failure of the country is ultimately at the feet of the locals. Sure some of them were dealt better hands then others depending on their colonial power. However where they went from their starting positions is their choice. Try comparing the outcomes of various colonial countries. If it is the locals who make the profits and decisions in successful countries the same responsibility for outcomes can be laid at the feet of the countries that do not succeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Blaming the colonialists from generations past rather then the current dictators and juntas is a bit rich. And the people still have the option of overthrowing the juntas... it seems to be an almost weekly passion in some countries.
I doubt it was the gov that was the real motive for not beating a dead horse with these pictures (origionally published in last September). Maybe some people recongize that a few pictures of 'ole Moe is not worth weeks upon weeks of riots and killings by angry Muslim radicals. They certainly have the right to publish them, but they also have the choise to not show them as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII