Any new spartan unit in the making?

I understand your position. Seriously, I do. I don't understand how you care this much about the blasted cloak/mini-cloak/whatever-it-is given the lack of information about their dress/armor/equipment in the third century of the unit as merc soldiers. There were pages and pages of arguments about the unit in development, and not one post worried with the cloak.

How stupid is it for the unit to have a cloak, you ask? How stupid is it for all units in RTW to have no extra clothes in the winter for battles? How stupid is the thick stuff in the deserts? It's something we really don't think about much cause we can't have an affect on these changes or the temperature/depiction/etc. No units' clothing has anything to do with these variations - we just focus on armor/weapons mostly. Aren't there cloaks on other units at the same latitude? Why the three play tragedy over the cloak on this particular unit? The argument that Hellenes especially before the Peloponnesian war fought in the summer only is understandable - but in RTW they fight at all times, right? Then sometimes, we have too little clothing on them! Gasp! Sometimes too much!

Write this off again as "you have no evidence they did" all you want. You are one person having a fit about a cloak on one unit we don't have hardly any specifics about at all and which is in a mod that people volunteer to create for themselves mostly but also for education and enjoyment of many more folks. A *fit*. I feel very very strongly about helping make sure people understand where in general we are coming from and why we have chosen to do things the way we have. There aren't many other members that care enough to post a lot on the open fora much anymore really. Some really take criticism too hard I think, but the types that mod are quite varied, and to each their own. But that is why I am here still, trying to make people understand and see things from the pov that we have taken. Sometimes no amount of talking matters though.

So please try to enjoy the other aspects of the mod you don't feel we totally screwed up so horribly. That's about the only advice I can give I'm afraid at this point.

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Originally Posted by fallen851

I did show evidence. 5th century evidence, indeed, but let us make this very simple.

I have no evidence, I'm only trying to disprove, now do you (since your the one trying to prove) have any evidence?

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That is essentially what is going on here, there is no evidence so you guys are guessing.

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True. You've got a point here. However, you are extrapolating on available evidence, and that is only possible if the same conditions apply. Your sources are not even talking about the same kind of cloak, so are they really relevant?

Similarly, you cannot compare modern-day martial arts with third-century phalanx warfare. When in close-combat you cannot get behind the Spartan opposing you to start tugging at his cloak, because he is backed up by others Spartans next to him and behind him. The only way to grab his cloak would be to reach past him, thereby exposing yourself. If the Spartan formation broke up, then it would be a vulnerability, but if that happened the battle was lost already.

Does any of this prove that third-century Spartans wore cloaks? No, off course not. However, not everything in Europa Barbarorum has a basis in fact, simply because there are too many gaps in the record. IIRC several units of elite Hellenic soldiers wore cloaks, so perhaps the Spartans did as well. Also, according to TA's earlier post the team wanted to make a statement about the Spartan. These are the reasons for including the cloak. Does that answer your question?

So TA, will there be a rare, pricy Spartan merc unit too?

and ps- if any of yall pray, send one up for me, i got some sort of nasty insect bite and the rural medical peeps arent much for quality help. thanks.

We've thought about it. Right now the unit is just for KH recruitment. But there has been discussion about it. We will have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

We've thought about it. Right now the unit is just for KH recruitment. But there has been discussion about it. We will have to wait and see.

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Those would probably look completely different, wouldn't they? Granted, it brings up several problems mentioned in this thread, but I imagine a recruited Spartan unit would appear rather spartan; however, a mercenary version, a group that would probably earn a lot of money and have no place to store material effects, would have more lavish equipment.

By the way, when did the Corinthian helmet fall out of use? It seems that every Greek unit has an Attic-type helmet. I imagine vision and hearing were the big motivators for that.

Well, seeing how these units that are recruited by KH *are* (at least previously) mercs (think of them as mercs prior to your recruiting them, then they stay under your command), they will seem somewhat lavish compared to some other regular hoplites. But yes, an even more decorated type unit to serve as mercs was considered and still might be (maybe a chance a least, but for now not being included).

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That is essentially what is going on here, there is no evidence so you guys are guessing.

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Is that not indeed what you're doing? There are copious amounts of social and martial trends and precedants that could lead one towards a number of conclusions; you take the outdated specifics of their appearance in battle, while we designed ours along the lines of an evolving population, as well as numerous actual archeaological examples of Spartan equipment. To quote another historian, "the Spartans did use archers," and were likewise not too steeped in their own traditions to shun everything the same traditions didn't necessarilly applaud.

Hey TA and other EB modders don't let sad, angry little people like Fallen get to you. If he's got a stick up his A#* about a little cloak then that's his problem. I think your team makes great choices and personally I can't wait to see the new unit.

Keep rockin' it hardcore:2thumbsup:

Don't feel all ganged up, Fallendude. No one hates you.

It's just that this stuff happens when you get all passionate on Teh Internets.

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Originally Posted by VandalCarthage

Is that not indeed what you're doing? There are copious amounts of social and martial trends and precedants that could lead one towards a number of conclusions; you take the outdated specifics of their appearance in battle, while we designed ours along the lines of an evolving population, as well as numerous actual archeaological examples of Spartan equipment. To quote another historian, "the Spartans did use archers," and were likewise not too steeped in their own traditions to shun everything the same traditions didn't necessarilly applaud.

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Didn't they just start to use archers more because of the embarassing defeat at Sphacteria? Anyway, I don't think the Spartans of that age were too steeped in their tradition. That was the classical age, when they were still in their utopia. I'd think that the freeing of helots changed the Spartans a lot, and they'd need to adapt to survive, so changing by then isn't surprising.

so maybe to bring down all the fuzz a little bit, maybe you could show us the new spartan/spartan merc ?:2thumbsup:
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Originally Posted by Kampfduck

so maybe to bring down all the fuzz a little bit, maybe you could show us the new spartan/spartan merc ?:2thumbsup:
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Smooooooooth ~;)