Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
I think I'll quit the debate too now, I've said almost everything there is to say, but I'll add one final comment before leaving: a violent or war-mongering man's greatest chance of evolutionary surviving lies in allowing any of his brothers that happens to be less violent or war-mongering to survive. Then most components of himself, except the violent or war-mongering part of him, survives to the next generation. The violent and war-mongering man should at the same time make sure not to not take part in the reproduction, and he'll then have yielded something that will remain within his herd forever, unlike what is the case if he starts destruction, which decreases the chances of his genes surviving at all drastically. Also, in the long term perspective, because every generation means a mix, for every generation the number of offspring that has genes from you almost doubles, while the percentage of your genes within each individual is halved. On average, 50% of your DNA will have come from the same parent that the same parts of the genomes of your brother came from, and within a species up to 99% of the DNA is exactly the same, which means on average 99.5% of your DNA is indentical to that of your brother. This means that in the long run, in a scenario where either you or your brother can take part in reproduction, it doesn't really matter much which one of you does so. In an even longer perspective, it doesn't matter if it's your or your cousins reproducing. And in a very long perspective, it doesn't matter which ones in your herd reproduces. In the ultimate long term perspective, the survival of your species is the only thing that matters. Because in the long term the new mutations will triumph over survival of one individual rather than another. What survives are good genes, DNA that is able to encapsulate itself in a being that does well in making sure the DNA will keep replicating over both the current generation and hundreds of generations to come. Evolution isn't about the survival of organisms as much as it is about the survival of DNA. There's also microscopic-level survival aspects - certain combinations of G,C,A,T are more easily mutated, and for critical functions a gene that produces proteins less benefitial for the organism might be preferable because they're not as easily mutated into producing another protein which is harmful or no protein at all. Unless any of the new posts contain any question which isn't answered by my posts above and this one, I'll consider this my last entry in this thread.
Comment???
08-15-2006, 20:04
Shaun
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spartan
seconded.
Well if you want to try and come up with a better theory, then be my guest. But so far Evolution is by far the most correct sounding theory.
08-15-2006, 20:07
GoreBag
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
As far as I'm concerned, we're all still animals. I rather like it that way, anyway.
08-15-2006, 20:52
Moros
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
We are aren't we? We're part of the animal kingdom (or whatever they call it in English) according to biology's classifications, no?
08-15-2006, 22:52
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
I believe we shifted onto evolution by accident, actually. My original contention was that man's natural state is violent and destructive and that as society curbs this to some degree it is a good thing but that Legio's vision of a peaceful future is essentially, for me, a distopia.
The reason I believe this is that if man is not in conflict with himself he will be in conflict with nothing.
As to use the words such as "evil" "honour" and "morality" these are all abstract and human concepts, as a result it is unfair to apply them to animals. Since you cannot demonstrate that an animal has any of these abtract traits you shouldn't apply them, because the animal may or may not have the trait. I believe passing such human judgements is unfair.
One final point, I did not say that animals fight wars, merely that they will fight over limited resources. Man has simply become much more efficiant at killing and being so numerous we can afford to lose a few thousant men every now and then.
Yay for us.:inquisitive:
Oh, and I don't believe good or evil triumph in the medium to long term.
08-16-2006, 05:37
Incongruous
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Of course you can see evolution in action, just read up on studies about the galapagous island finches and beak length.
08-16-2006, 08:35
Fragony
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hepcat
There is a lot more to it than just coming from monkeys!
Tiny little misconception, according from the evolutiontheory didn't come from monkeys, we share an ancestor but developed in different ways.
08-16-2006, 09:24
Moros
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Tiny little misconception, according from the evolutiontheory didn't come from monkeys, we share an ancestor but developed in different ways.
The Sahelanthropus tchadensis is the the probable ancestor of both the later humans and chimpanzees. I believe that's where it split up.
Here's a nice evolution tree I found. It's starts later tough, The S.T. isn't on it anymore as it starts with the genus Ardipithecus. (the kadabba isn't on there tough.)
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Yes exactly, it is kind of hard to explain on the forums but I think we may be making people slowly realise that there is more to it than just coming from monkeys :2thumbsup:
Most of the time it isn't that people are stupid or pig headed about things like this, it is just that they don't know much about it.
08-16-2006, 15:59
Moros
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Woot I forgot to post the link to that tree.
I doubt it's the part of knowledge. Most people here are fairly knowledged. IT's faith and the enviroment. We'll just blame the chinese! ~;)
08-16-2006, 18:50
danfda
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Reread what I said, I will add italics for emphasis.
I don't believe in Evolution.
Hint:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Read my signature which has a gene vs meme theme.
Roger roger, nature v. nurture.
My bad. :oops:
The rest of my point remains valid, though. I can still prove evolution occurs in about 12 hours in a test tube. In fact, I just did it last night (no, nothing X-rated! :2thumbsup: ).
08-17-2006, 03:11
Papewaio
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Belief is faith based hence lack of facts or proof.
Hence I do not believe nor does any scientist believe in any scientific theory be it Gravity, Newtons or Einsteins one does not believe in it. One understands it, one can perform experiments on it and one can make predictions with the theory.
So any scientist worth his salt doesn't believe in evolution. It is testable therefore it isn't based on belief.
08-17-2006, 14:37
Patriarch of Constantinople
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Thats only 79%. What about the rest of them?
08-17-2006, 14:45
Patriarch of Constantinople
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
1. animals certainly do have morals, just like humans, the only difference is that they can't talk about morals and that their morals differ from ours, often on a per-species basis, but sometimes even on per-population basis. Usually herd animals are more "good" according to human values than lonely-living animals, with more signs of altruism. But it's probably because we're herd animals that we consider herd animals to be more "good", because their morals resemble our own.
Metaphorically, the term is used for God, especially in the Judeo-Christian tradition (e.g. Psalm 23), and in Christianity especially Jesus, who is called Good Shepherd. The Ancient Israelites were a pastoral people and there were many shepherds among them. It may also be worth noting that many Biblical heroes were shepherds, among them the Old Testament prophet Amos, who was a shepherd in the rugged area around Tekoa, as well as King David, and Moses.
08-17-2006, 16:42
danfda
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Belief is faith based hence lack of facts or proof.
Hence I do not believe nor does any scientist believe in any scientific theory be it Gravity, Newtons or Einsteins one does not believe in it. One understands it, one can perform experiments on it and one can make predictions with the theory.
So any scientist worth his salt doesn't believe in evolution. It is testable therefore it isn't based on belief.
Okay, so you were being lippy, and I missed it. :stupido2: I can appreciate that.
08-17-2006, 18:43
GoreBag
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Belief is faith based hence lack of facts or proof.
Hence I do not believe nor does any scientist believe in any scientific theory be it Gravity, Newtons or Einsteins one does not believe in it. One understands it, one can perform experiments on it and one can make predictions with the theory.
So any scientist worth his salt doesn't believe in evolution. It is testable therefore it isn't based on belief.
Nonsense. One can choose to disbelieve anything that one puts their mind to it. For instance, I'm not so sure about this whole gravity thing, since I've never experienced it beyond seeing things fall to the earth. Does the fact that things fall to the earth constitute gravity? No, it just means that things fall to the ground.
Besides, refusing to believe in something that seems to be fact shouldn't be new to you; you've played Dungeons and Dragons, haven't you?
08-18-2006, 01:16
Papewaio
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by danfda
Okay, so you were being lippy, and I missed it. :stupido2: I can appreciate that.
And pointing out that by using the term belief you are playing the game to a different set of rules then what science is based on. By entering that mindset you are playing into the hands of fundamentalists.
It is also showing that the debate is being incorrectly framed in the first
instance. It would be like asking someone to prove their belief system...
News Headlines:
"40% of Swedes have touched the Hammer of Thor."
"Priest of Thor charged with carnal Knowledge."
We don't measure faith by scientific means nor should we frame science understanding in the term of faith... it only leads to confusion and/or plays into the hands of those who seek confirmation of predetermined conclusions...which is neither scientific nor is it honest.
08-20-2006, 09:21
Claudius the God
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
I would much rather have evolved from the Great Apes as the Scientists have produced enourmous amounts of scientific data to conclude, than to have been created from dirt by a tyrannical "god" as the christians claim without a shread of evidence to support the notion...
08-20-2006, 23:56
Papewaio
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Actually our Solar System was created from dust, our Solar system is the product of several other star deaths. Our Sun and Solar System is at least a third generation product as there are elements beyond Iron.
So in a round about way we are created from dirt, star dust to be precise.
08-21-2006, 12:51
JFC
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
I have some questions for the people who don't believe in Evolution.
1. Why does the Bible not mention Dinosuars?
2. Explain Dinosuars.
3. Explain Marsupials and why then they only inhabit Ausralasia.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Might have something to do with it being the first land mass to separate from Pangea
4. Animal Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus and Species.
5. How it's a coincedence that Monkeys have opposable thumbs like Humans, finger nails and Omnivore teeth, but we have nothing in common.
6. Dinosuars
08-21-2006, 13:08
Fragony
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
The Bible also doesn't mention earl-grey tea but that still is what I am drinking right now.
08-21-2006, 13:38
Moros
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The Bible also doesn't mention earl-grey tea but that still is what I am drinking right now.
Mathëus 3:33 ~;)
Now, seriously dinosaurs,.. aren't real proof against the bible nor the fact that monkeys resemble to people. a Mantis walks on two legs en has front legs which could have evolved into hands. That doesn't mean monky's and humans once were matises. Now does it? As we all know that it isn't true.
08-21-2006, 13:48
Banquo's Ghost
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFC
I have some questions for the people who don't believe in Evolution.
1. Why does the Bible not mention Dinosuars?
2. Explain Dinosuars.
3. Explain Marsupials and why then they only inhabit Ausralasia.
4. Animal Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus and Species.
5. How it's a coincedence that Monkeys have opposable thumbs like Humans, finger nails and Omnivore teeth, but we have nothing in common.
6. Dinosuars
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a bit of amusement.
Creationists will always have an answer (usually linked at the one site www.answersincretinism.org) to your questions. The answers however are not subject to the same rational criteria as your questions are seeking, so nothing will be gained in the discussion.
For example, it's not necessary for the Bible to mention dinosaurs - it doesn't mention many things, as Fragony noted - non-mention doesn't prove or disprove their existence. Dinosaurs can easily be explained in their belief system because God can do anything, and doesn't need a rational reason open to human intepretation to do it.
Marsupials don't only inhabit Australasia - they are extant in South America too. It's important when making these arguments to be accurate - creationists love nothing more to jump on such inaccuracy and extrapolate to 'evolution therefore sucks' with barely a whiff of conscience.
Point 4 is just a set of artificial human constructs, used for labelling and understanding. They're not all that different from 'fish that swim, the birds of the air and things that crawl on their belly' (apologies for the inaccurate paraphrase) as a taxonomic system. Taxonomy allows us to see patterns and relationships which can be tested through evolutionary theory. Labelling does not make a thing true - evidence does.
Point 5 seems to state the point from a creationist view. Coincidence and 'having things in common' are woolly concepts that should begin the thought process - and indeed did, leading to the answer - evolution. But from a creationist standpoint, there are also no such concepts as coincidence, because God planned it the way it is now observed.
It is not possible to argue constructively with the latter standpoint using logic and method, as you will always be trumped by deus ex machina. Though it is occasionally fun to indulge oneself.
08-21-2006, 14:04
Fragony
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Also take this into consideration, if you were Noah, how would you get a pair of T-rex on your boat? He was probably ashamed that he couldn't, and that is why he doesn't mention them.
08-21-2006, 14:35
Goofball
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Okay, speaking as a former predatory scavenging ape from the plains....
Criminy Goofball. You have Lebanon/Israel, Iran's nuclear bombs, North Korea's nuclear bombs, famines all across Africa, previously unheard of bad weather due to George Bush's dedication to increasing global warming [/sarcasm off], Prince Harry's new girlfriend, Brittney's home video that proves she's human after all and..... oh yeah, a plot to blow up 10 planes and kill thousands of people..... and THIS grabs your attention?
What the hell do you all care? Do a bunch of hicks in Missouri believing in 6 days and not a minute longer even remotely impact your life? Hey, if you think it does.. get a real one!!!
Sorry about the delay in replying, Don. I was sitting by a lake at a cottage with no computers in sight all of last week. Quite lovely really...
It matters to me because it demonstrates a disturbing trend: The most powerful nation in the world is sliding more and more toward religious fundamentalism. Your citizens are showing an alarming and increasing desire to insert religious dogma into or in place of scientific theory, law, and government.
We all know how much trouble religious zealots from piss-poor places with no real military might can cause.
I shudder to think what might happen if the trend toward religious fundamentalism continues in the U.S. Perhaps in 50 years or so when some other President gets elected on a faith based platform, he might just decide that us infidel Canadians need a little lesson taught to us...
08-21-2006, 15:40
Moros
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Also take this into consideration, if you were Noah, how would you get a pair of T-rex on your boat? He was probably ashamed that he couldn't, and that is why he doesn't mention them.
:laugh4: :laugh4:
lol
08-21-2006, 15:49
Redleg
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Sorry about the delay in replying, Don. I was sitting by a lake at a cottage with no computers in sight all of last week. Quite lovely really...
It matters to me because it demonstrates a disturbing trend: The most powerful nation in the world is sliding more and more toward religious fundamentalism. Your citizens are showing an alarming and increasing desire to insert religious dogma into or in place of scientific theory, law, and government.
A generalization such as this begs that one provide some proof. In most of the news that I have read - the county school boards that have tried this have been overturned by the voters of that area.
08-21-2006, 16:06
JFC
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Let me play Devil's Advocate for a bit of amusement.
Creationists will always have an answer (usually linked at the one site www.answersincretinism.org) to your questions. The answers however are not subject to the same rational criteria as your questions are seeking, so nothing will be gained in the discussion.
For example, it's not necessary for the Bible to mention dinosaurs - it doesn't mention many things, as Fragony noted - non-mention doesn't prove or disprove their existence. Dinosaurs can easily be explained in their belief system because God can do anything, and doesn't need a rational reason open to human intepretation to do it.
Marsupials don't only inhabit Australasia - they are extant in South America too. It's important when making these arguments to be accurate - creationists love nothing more to jump on such inaccuracy and extrapolate to 'evolution therefore sucks' with barely a whiff of conscience.
Point 4 is just a set of artificial human constructs, used for labelling and understanding. They're not all that different from 'fish that swim, the birds of the air and things that crawl on their belly' (apologies for the inaccurate paraphrase) as a taxonomic system. Taxonomy allows us to see patterns and relationships which can be tested through evolutionary theory. Labelling does not make a thing true - evidence does.
Point 5 seems to state the point from a creationist view. Coincidence and 'having things in common' are woolly concepts that should begin the thought process - and indeed did, leading to the answer - evolution. But from a creationist standpoint, there are also no such concepts as coincidence, because God planned it the way it is now observed.
It is not possible to argue constructively with the latter standpoint using logic and method, as you will always be trumped by deus ex machina. Though it is occasionally fun to indulge oneself.
So then how come the female sterile Dinosaurs in Jurassic Park stared laying eggs? Jeff Goldblum even stated that they would!
08-21-2006, 17:13
Goofball
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
It matters to me because it demonstrates a disturbing trend: The most powerful nation in the world is sliding more and more toward religious fundamentalism. Your citizens are showing an alarming and increasing desire to insert religious dogma into or in place of scientific theory, law, and government.
A generalization such as this begs that one provide some proof. In most of the news that I have read - the county school boards that have tried this have been overturned by the voters of that area.
True. But how many states have implemented constitutional amendments (a process that as far as I know requires much more than a simple majority in most cases) or laws banning gay marriage?
At any rate Red, I did not say that fundamentalists made up the majority of the American populace. Thankfully, this is why things like whacko school trustees losing their jobs can still take place.
But my general feeling is that religious dogma and its acceptance into mainstream politics is on the rise in America.
Without the religious right, Bush would arguably not have been elected President in the first place.
Here's an article you may find interesting. It doesn't slam religion, but does note the dominance it has played in the formation of the current administration's policies.
At any rate, you can't demand prrof of my initial statement, as it is my opinion. I'll provide arguments and articles to support it, but you are correct: it was a generalization and cannot be proven. However, I find it hard to believe that anybody who has been paying attention to American politics and news over the past 20 years would not agree that the religious right is increasing its influence over the governance of the country.
I'll leave you with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by George W. Bush January 2004 at a speech in New Orleans
We want to fund programs that save Americans one soul at a time.
08-21-2006, 17:24
danfda
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertgregoor
a Mantis walks on two legs en has front legs which could have evolved into hands. That doesn't mean monky's and humans once were matises. Now does it? As we all know that it isn't true.
Naw, it just means that evolution tends to find the best solutions for problems and reuses them. Walking on two legs allows for a greater range of sight, which is a massive boon for the predatory mantis, and having front legs also makes grabbing and killing prey much easier. The fact that mantises have those features is not a coincidence, nor does it mean apes and mantises are descended from a close ancestor species. All that means is that evolution finds the simplest solutions, and copies and pastes them to other species. No Gods needed.
Quote:
I'll leave you with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by George W. Bush January 2004 at a speech in New Orleans
We want to fund programs that save Americans one soul at a time.
Ahh, that made my stomach turn!
08-21-2006, 18:22
Moros
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by danfda
Naw, it just means that evolution tends to find the best solutions for problems and reuses them. Walking on two legs allows for a greater range of sight, which is a massive boon for the predatory mantis, and having front legs also makes grabbing and killing prey much easier. The fact that mantises have those features is not a coincidence, nor does it mean apes and mantises are descended from a close ancestor species. All that means is that evolution finds the simplest solutions, and copies and pastes them to other species. No Gods needed.
Yes, I know that and believe that. But my point was just that two animals have similar features that doesn't mean that they have a common ancestor. (Unless you back verry, verry, verry far.)
08-21-2006, 18:24
danfda
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Yeah, gertgregoor, after I posted I went back and reread the previous few posts, and the second time through I caught your hint o' sarcasm. I'm slow, what can I say. :laugh4:
08-21-2006, 19:40
Redleg
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
True. But how many states have implemented constitutional amendments (a process that as far as I know requires much more than a simple majority in most cases) or laws banning gay marriage?
You would have to demonstrate that each state that passed a constitutional ammendment to their constitution to define marriage did it out of religious reasoning. Another situation that you will be hard pressed to make a generalization about.
Now demonstrated to me what states have made laws banning gay marriage and have not had them overturned by their state supreme court as unconstitutional?
Quote:
At any rate Red, I did not say that fundamentalists made up the majority of the American populace. Thankfully, this is why things like whacko school trustees losing their jobs can still take place.
Is this a quibble?
Quote:
But my general feeling is that religious dogma and its acceptance into mainstream politics is on the rise in America.
Your feeling only matter's to you - you making another generalization that you have not demonstrated as fact.
Quote:
Without the religious right, Bush would arguably not have been elected President in the first place.
With a viable democratic party candidate President Bush would not have been elected either.
Quote:
Here's an article you may find interesting. It doesn't slam religion, but does note the dominance it has played in the formation of the current administration's policies.
At any rate, you can't demand prrof of my initial statement, as it is my opinion. I'll provide arguments and articles to support it, but you are correct: it was a generalization and cannot be proven. However, I find it hard to believe that anybody who has been paying attention to American politics and news over the past 20 years would not agree that the religious right is increasing its influence over the governance of the country.
Try reading the statement once again - A generalization such as this begs that one provide some proof. In most of the news that I have read - the county school boards that have tried this have been overturned by the voters of that area. A generalization does indeed have difficultly in being proven correct.
I have seen patterns come and go - the extreme's in this country come into influence and out of influence every few years. Your generalization does not hold true when one looks at the country as a whole.
Notice not to long ago (less then 5 years) that there was a major movement to remove religios symbols from many local level governments. A certain amount of what you are percieving to be an increase in religious fundmentalism is the backlash from the secular fundmentalist movements of earlier days.
Edit: Just so some don't get confused about my postion on this subject: Creationism should not be taught in schools that are attempting to teach science according to the established principles of science. Its fine to teach creationism in a private religious school or in sunday school, but not in a school that is funded by the taxpayer. Personally I want my child to learn science taught by teaching the principles of science and how to use your own mind to draw your well founded conclusions.
08-21-2006, 20:14
Goofball
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
You would have to demonstrate that each state that passed a constitutional ammendment to their constitution to define marriage did it out of religious reasoning. Another situation that you will be hard pressed to make a generalization about.
Now demonstrated to me what states have made laws banning gay marriage and have not had them overturned by their state supreme court as unconstitutional?
Is this a quibble?
Your feeling only matter's to you - you making another generalization that you have not demonstrated as fact.
With a viable democratic party candidate President Bush would not have been elected either.
I will read the article in the next few days..
Try reading the statement once again - A generalization such as this begs that one provide some proof. In most of the news that I have read - the county school boards that have tried this have been overturned by the voters of that area. A generalization does indeed have difficultly in being proven correct.
I have seen patterns come and go - the extreme's in this country come into influence and out of influence every few years. Your generalization does not hold true when one looks at the country as a whole.
Notice not to long ago (less then 5 years) that there was a major movement to remove religios symbols from many local level governments. A certain amount of what you are percieving to be an increase in religious fundmentalism is the backlash from the secular fundmentalist movements of earlier days.
Edit: Just so some don't get confused about my postion on this subject: Creationism should not be taught in schools that are attempting to teach science according to the established principles of science. Its fine to teach creationism in a private religious school or in sunday school, but not in a school that is funded by the taxpayer. Personally I want my child to learn science taught by teaching the principles of science and how to use your own mind to draw your well founded conclusions.
I really have neither the time nor the inclination to become involved in a lengthy nitpicking contest.
You "win" your point: my statement was a generalizaion about a trend in American politics over the past twenty years or so. My statement cannot be proved. It was based on my own awareness and internal compilation and digestion of a broad spectrum of anecdotal evidence.
In summary: it is my opinion.
And no: you are, as you say, under no obligation to care about it.
Having said all of that, just as you could probably produce hundreds of articles supporting the idea that Christianity is under attack and in danger of extinction in the U.S., so could I also produce a like number of articles supporting the idea that within 5 years all Americans will be forced by the government to attend church at gunpoint.
The difference is that you put more weight in the former, while I put more weight in the latter.
That is how opinions are formed, and also is a demonstration of their inherent "value."
:coffeenews:
08-21-2006, 20:26
Redleg
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
I really have neither the time nor the inclination to become involved in a lengthy nitpicking contest.
Then one should steer away from unprovable generalizations.
Quote:
You "win" your point: my statement was a generalizaion about a trend in American politics over the past twenty years or so. My statement cannot be proved. It was based on my own awareness and internal compilation and digestion of a broad spectrum of anecdotal evidence.
Then you missed my point - it was not about winning anything.
Quote:
Having said all of that, just as you could probably produce hundreds of articles supporting the idea that Christianity is under attack and in danger of extinction in the U.S., so could I also produce a like number of articles supporting the idea that within 5 years all Americans will be forced by the government to attend church at gunpoint.
The difference is that you put more weight in the former, while I put more weight in the latter.
That is how opinions are formed, and also is a demonstration of their inherent "value."
:coffeenews:
Something else that you have gotten completely wrong. But its not to suprising since your basing most of your arguement off of emotional appeal.
You have something in common with those who advocate teaching creationism in school - arguements based upon gross generalizations and emotional appeal ....
08-21-2006, 20:51
Goofball
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
I really have neither the time nor the inclination to become involved in a lengthy nitpicking contest.
Then one should steer away from unprovable generalizations.
Red! Are you honestly saying that the Backroom is not an appropriate forum for offering one's opinion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
You "win" your point: my statement was a generalizaion about a trend in American politics over the past twenty years or so. My statement cannot be proved. It was based on my own awareness and internal compilation and digestion of a broad spectrum of anecdotal evidence.
Then you missed my point - it was not about winning anything.
No, it never is with you, is it?
~;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Having said all of that, just as you could probably produce hundreds of articles supporting the idea that Christianity is under attack and in danger of extinction in the U.S., so could I also produce a like number of articles supporting the idea that within 5 years all Americans will be forced by the government to attend church at gunpoint.
The difference is that you put more weight in the former, while I put more weight in the latter.
That is how opinions are formed, and also is a demonstration of their inherent "value."
:coffeenews:
Something else that you have gotten completely wrong. But its not to suprising since your basing most of your arguement off of emotional appeal.
You have something in common with those who advocate teaching creationism in school - arguements based upon gross generalizations and emotional appeal ....
I'm sorry you feel that way.
But all I really did was state my own opinion, state how and why I formed that opinion, and then acknowledge that my opinion was certainly not provable, nor worth any more than anybody else's opinion.
Again, please allow me to apologize for bogging down the Backroom with tearful and awkward emotion...
08-21-2006, 23:28
Redleg
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Red! Are you honestly saying that the Backroom is not an appropriate forum for offering one's opinion?
That was not stated - what was stated is this.
Then one should steer away from unprovable generalizations.
A generalization that is unprovable normally can be associated with certain definitions, such as bigotry and prejudicial.
We have enough problems that one can find fault with many things without making a generalization that smacks more of bigotry and prejudicial intolerance of other people's belief systems because you don't like that particuler belief system.
08-21-2006, 23:53
Goofball
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
That was not stated - what was stated is this.
Then one should steer away from unprovable generalizations.
A generalization that is unprovable normally can be associated with certain definitions, such as bigotry and prejudicial.
We have enough problems that one can find fault with many things without making a generalization that smacks more of bigotry and prejudicial intolerance of other people's belief systems because you don't like that particuler belief system.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
I haven't lost my touch folks. Even after an extended absence from the Backroom, I still managed to take Red through his well known, tried and true, patented "three stages of debate":
1. You're generalizing!
2. You're making emotional appeals!
3. Your statements are bigoted!
In the space of 4 posts, I went from being a generalizer to a purveyor of bigotry.
All because I said I believe that American citizens are showing an alarming and increasing desire to insert religious dogma into or in place of scientific theory, law, and government, then acknowledged that this was only my personal opinion supported by nothing more than anecdotal evidence.
I'm glad to see you haven't changed, Red.
~:grouphug:
08-22-2006, 00:01
Redleg
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
All because I said I believe that American citizens are showing an alarming and increasing desire to insert religious dogma into or in place of scientific theory, law, and government, then acknowledged that this was only my personal opinion supported by nothing more than anecdotal evidence.
Glad to see you acknowledge that your statement was based upon prejudicial bigotry versus actual facts.
Whats wrong Goofy did I touch a nerve on your unprovable generalization?
Edit: And again there is normally only two stages - one being calling people on their generalization and thier emotional appeal. The other stage we haven't even reached yet.
08-22-2006, 07:03
Papewaio
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Well this was going well.
Quite above average for an evolution debate.
So instead of locked and gone. I will give it a 12 to 24 hour timeout.
08-24-2006, 00:01
Papewaio
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Reopened, play nicely. :balloon2:
08-24-2006, 12:19
BDC
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
I wonder what evolutionary pressures lead to baby pandas being so cute and amusing to humans?
08-24-2006, 12:22
Moros
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDC
I wonder what evolutionary pressures lead to baby pandas being so cute and amusing to humans?
Well that's verry simple. If they evolved to hidious beasts they would have been slained and killed already. Now however because of their cuteness, people even try to prevent them for extinction.
:sweatdrop:
08-24-2006, 22:35
Lemur
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Evolution Major Vanishes From Approved Federal List
By CORNELIA DEAN
Evolutionary biology has vanished from the list of acceptable fields of study for recipients of a federal education grant for low-income college students.
The omission is inadvertent, said Katherine McLane, a spokeswoman for the Department of Education, which administers the grants. “There is no explanation for it being left off the list,” Ms. McLane said. “It has always been an eligible major.”
Another spokeswoman, Samara Yudof, said evolutionary biology would be restored to the list, but as of last night it was still missing.
If a major is not on the list, students in that major cannot get grants unless they declare another major, said Barmak Nassirian, associate executive director of the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. Mr. Nassirian said students seeking the grants went first to their college registrar, who determined whether they were full-time students majoring in an eligible field.
“If a field is missing, that student would not even get into the process,” he said.
That the omission occurred at all is worrying scientists concerned about threats to the teaching of evolution.
One of them, Lawrence M. Krauss, a physicist at Case Western Reserve University, said he learned about it from someone at the Department of Education, who got in touch with him after his essay on the necessity of teaching evolution appeared in The New York Times on Aug. 15. Dr. Krauss would not name his source, who he said was concerned about being publicly identified as having drawn attention to the matter.
An article about the issue was posted Tuesday on the Web site of The Chronicle of Higher Education.
Dr. Krauss said the omission would be “of great concern” if evolutionary biology had been singled out for removal, or if the change had been made without consulting with experts on biology. The grants are awarded under the National Smart Grant program, established this year by Congress. (Smart stands for Science and Mathematics Access to Retain Talent.)
The program provides $4,000 grants to third- or fourth-year, low-income students majoring in physical, life or computer sciences; mathematics; technology; engineering; or foreign languages deemed “critical” to national security.
The list of eligible majors (which is online at ifap.ed.gov/dpcletters/attachments/GEN0606A.pdf) is drawn from the Education Department’s “Classification of Instructional Programs,” or CIP (pronounced “sip”), a voluminous and detailed classification of courses of study, arranged in a numbered system of sections and subsections.
Part 26, biological and biomedical sciences, has a number of sections, each of which has one or more subsections. Subsection 13 is ecology, evolution, systematics and population biology. This subsection itself has 10 sub-subsections. One of them is 26.1303 — evolutionary biology, “the scientific study of the genetic, developmental, functional, and morphological patterns and processes, and theoretical principles; and the emergence and mutation of organisms over time.”
Though references to evolution appear in listings of other fields of biological study, the evolutionary biology sub-subsection is missing from a list of “fields of study” on the National Smart Grant list — there is an empty space between line 26.1302 (marine biology and biological oceanography) and line 26.1304 (aquatic biology/limnology).
Students cannot simply list something else on an application form, said Mr. Nassirian of the registrars’ association. “Your declared major maps to a CIP code,” he said.
Mr. Nassirian said people at the Education Department had described the omission as “a clerical mistake.” But it is “odd,” he said, because applying the subject codes “is a fairly mechanical task. It is not supposed to be the subject of any kind of deliberation.”
“I am not at all certain that the omission of this particular major is unintentional,” he added. “But I have to take them at their word.”
Scientists who knew about the omission also said they found the clerical explanation unconvincing, given the furor over challenges by the religious right to the teaching of evolution in public schools. “It’s just awfully coincidental,” said Steven W. Rissing, an evolutionary biologist at Ohio State University.
Jeremy Gunn, who directs the Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief at the American Civil Liberties Union, said that if the change was not immediately reversed “we will certainly pursue this.”
Dr. Rissing said removing evolutionary biology from the list of acceptable majors would discourage students who needed the grants from pursuing the field, at a time when studies of how genes act and evolve are producing valuable insights into human health.
“This is not just some kind of nicety,” he said. “We are doing a terrible disservice to our students if this is yet another example of making sure science doesn’t offend anyone.”
Dr. Krauss of Case Western said he did not know what practical issues would arise from the omission of evolutionary biology from the list, given that students would still be eligible for grants if they declared a major in something else — biology, say.
“I am sure an enterprising student or program director could find a way to put themselves in another slot,” he said. “But why should they have to do that?”
Mr. Nassirian said he was not so sure. “Candidly, I don’t think most administrators know enough about this program” to help students overcome the apparent objection to evolutionary biology, he said. Undergraduates would be even less knowledgeable about the issue, he added.
Dr. Krauss said: “Removing that one major is not going to make the nation stupid, but if this really was removed, specifically removed, then I see it as part of a pattern to put ideology over knowledge. And, especially in the Department of Education, that should be abhorred.”
08-24-2006, 22:39
Silver Rusher
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
:jawdrop:
08-25-2006, 02:27
Papewaio
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Very very very wrong. But oh so funny.
This bit in particular:
Quote:
“I am not at all certain that the omission of this particular major is unintentional,” he added. “But I have to take them at their word.”
Scientists who knew about the omission also said they found the clerical explanation unconvincing, given the furor over challenges by the religious right to the teaching of evolution in public schools. “It’s just awfully coincidental,” said Steven W. Rissing, an evolutionary biologist at Ohio State University.
So evolutionary biologists are saying it possibly wasn't just a random mistake that changed the available code as that would be too coincedental hence it was more likely a higher power, a clerical worker. :laugh4:
08-25-2006, 06:57
KafirChobee
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Actually, the number i last saw of Americans believing in "evolution" was 35%. It surprised me, even dismayed my fellow objectionists, but it didn't shock me. It is one of those things that one learns to accept in the new America that allows propaganda to dictate policy and learning. Twist a kids mind and you own it forever.
Americans are ready to jump on the dime. Just tell them what dime to jump on, for the most part. America was begoted from the go on of its history; and thrives on it today. Though most of the most prejudicial like to deny it. Even like to accuse pthers of being so, or of Blacks (Afro-americans, they like to accuse them of calling thenselves Black as though it were a bad thing - is sorta aprapro. Or ignoring one prejudice for another - and proclaiming that Jesus knew who was right. Right.).
America turned when the allowance for ignorance became acceptable, and the inevitability of it seemed justified. It was, after all, the old adage "ignorance is bliss. Ergo, America lives in bliss.
Personally. I don't buy it. Americans, maybe the dumbest modern populace on the face of the Earth - but they ain't dumb enough to buy into the religiousrights bs.
Of course I might be wrong, Lets wait for November. I suspect, that Americans will look a whole lot smarter after the November elections. Or, as dumb as we may deseve.
08-30-2006, 15:48
Moros
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Rusher
:jawdrop:
indeed, indeed.
08-30-2006, 16:48
danfda
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
So evolutionary biologists are saying it possibly wasn't just a random mistake that changed the available code as that would be too coincedental hence it was more likely a higher power, a clerical worker. :laugh4:
Pshaw. Evolutionary biologists have simply evolved to be skeptical of the governments "coincidental mistakes."
:2thumbsup:
08-30-2006, 18:17
yesdachi
Re: Only 40% of Americans believe in the Theory of Evolution
40%, that sounds about right, the number coincides with the number of high school graduates who know what the word “Evolution” means. :smartass2: