Inquisitors - problems & solutions (was Crusading when I meet inquisitor)

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Originally Posted by Mr Frost

The idea of an Inquisitor executing a prince of a powerful faction is ahistorical nonsense , let alone the King himself !
There may have been the rare exception in very unusual circumstances , however Kings and Princes led armies of very violent men and generally killed those who threatened them at the earliest convienience .
An inquisitor whom tried to condem and execute a King at the head of his crusading army would have been made a very interesting footnote in history as a madman who made a mistake of biblical proportions :P

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I agree, this whole "burn the heir" and "burn the general leading a crusade" stuff is silly. This can't be an intentional game design... more likely a bug in the targeting script for the campaign AI.

I don't have the game yet (should arrive next Tues.), but I'm thinking of playing non-Catholic factions to avoid this nonsense until a patch is released.

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The inquisition orders targeted "civilians" .
Catholic Preists in even remotely good standing were nearly immune and a full Cardinal was untouchable {only the Pope can really judge them} . For an inquisition to start burning catholic preists would be to defy the Pope and that would have resulted in the inquisitors being stripped of possition and likely , flesh too . A member of the Catholic preisthood had to screw up pretty bad to be fair game for inquisitors .

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Well, it did happen when a priest p.o.'d the higher-ups badly enough (look up "Urbain Grandier" on wikipedia), but not often. Maybe the CA devs have been watching too many Ken Russell movies.

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Originally Posted by Zenicetus

look up "Urbain Grandier" on wikipedia

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I looked this up on wikipedia and, as usual, that led me to look up many related topics. I eventually typed in crusades and saw this article on them.

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Crusades
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no i will not suck it

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades"

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:jawdrop::laugh4: :laugh4: :jawdrop::laugh4: :laugh4: :jawdrop:


this has happend twice but now crusades takes me to a proper article.

It seems obvious to me that the inquisitors are bugged, and in a big way. GrandInquisitor's (nice name BTW) story proves that without a doubt.

Firstly, they're successful way too often. Secondly, they target individuals they should not be able to (such as spies hidden inside a town).

Part of the problem is that MTW2 only tracks family members. In the old game, any free standing army had a character. Not any more.


I'm not convinced that your standing with the pope will fix this issue. I have near perfect standing (one of my cardinals IS the pope), and one still came along and burned my KING.


The sad part is, a few hours of playtesting should have shown this. How did CA miss this? I can't possibly believe they are behaving as intended.

I've come to the conclusion that the Inquisition is not bugged, rather we're just misunderstanding the implementation. In history, the Inquisition was formed to root out heresy and witchcraft. In M2TW, the Inquisition is formed for the Pope to get even with people he doesn't like.

I'm now 90 some turns into my Spanish campaign. When I decided to play a catholic faction (I modded the game files and played Byzantium first, no dealings with the Pope there), I read a lot on this forum about the people's problems with Inquisitors and solutions. In those 90-100 turns, I've seen exactly ONE Inquisitor in my lands, and he was just passing through Toulouse on his way to Bordeaux, still held by the (at the time excommunicated) French.

Is this luck? Possibly, but I don't think so. Basically, the solution seems to be keeping your Pope-o-meter higher than anyone else. I've taken the time (and spent the money) to keep mine between 8 and 10. It's always either max, or higher than the next closest. I see a lot of inquisitors in the lands of the factions whose Papal standings are low. Park a diplomat outside Rome. Gift them money every so often. It usually takes me about 500 florins to raise it a point. 1000 florins normally raises 2 points. I have to do this every 10 turns or so, unless something else happens that changes it.

Oh... and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO68fUMWx3g

Has anyone noticed how far those jokers can move!!! Caen to Hamburg without breaking a sweat!

I agree they should fix them or take them out all together, but I did try the sure fire Inquisitor killer method and they grown really loud...:jumping: But that was just after they killed my faction heir, then I moved to kill a rebel stack with an other general...and their was an other one skulking in the brush...so I broke up the stack in all directions with the general in the middle...I'll see if that works because he can't get next to him that I can see.

If the game cheats by killing noble family members, which is about as historically inaccurate as it gets, then I cheat by 8 boxing them with cheap militia and sending them to hell. Tit for tat. There is something seriously wrong with the implementation of inquisitors. Trying captains and even generals, I can live with; but burning faction heirs and crusaders armies at the stake is outrageous.

A rather interesting happening occured to me, playing as Spain-

King Alfonzo was burned as a heretic, despite the fact that-

The Pope was Spanish and had been for several turns.

Spain had no less than three Cardinals in the College of Cardinals.

The King was not excommunicated, had no pagan magicians or whatnot.

That just struck me as very odd, unless of course the AI is very very clever and was playing out a subplot where the Spanish Pope had bad previous blood with the King and offed him.

Besides that, though, should Inquisitors be able to burn kings? No historical precedent of which I am aware.

Well... low Piety = burn... Regardless of other things.

However, a lot of people seem to share the idea that Inquisitors are a bit too 'effective'.

Personally I have lost two HRE Emperors within a few turns of each other. One was in fact leading a Crusade. Obviously that sent me reeling in an attempt to send a general out to the Crusade in time. I managed it... But had the Emperor just managed to move a little bit further.

The inquisitor is simply not historically accurate to any degree. I do not recall a single example where a king was executed by the Inquisition. And why? The Inquisition relied on the secular authority (thats the king) to function!

To make the Inquisition more realistic a few things need to happen. Inquisitors should only be able to change the heresy rating in a province. Priests should boost piety but not alter heresy to make things interesting. Furthermore Inquisition must be introduced to provinces. Inqusition should ask for permission to actually do its work. Rejecting this would hurt faction-papal rating. Furthermore, Inquisito should be able to target characters. Non-family members or heirs should allow option to execute character since only secular authority could enact punishment. Now for family, heirs and king it should be more interesting. Inqusitio cannot kill king, it just couldnt happen. Now if king has low piety or magiician or what not then the only thing that could really happen is that he'd be pronounced a heretic himself. Think excommunication. That at least can be disputed with arms! I think that would be a very effective, and accurate attempt at fixing the Inquisitio.

Yeah ive seen several kings (both my own and the AI's) taken out by inquisitors.

While more historical, it would make the Inquisitors rather redundant and considerably less than ideally scary. You effectively control what is going on.

Right now they are too scary. They just need a good kick to the successrate and it will be fine.

If Priests do not clean up Herecy, then there is basically no need to produce them. If nobody produces them, then where do the Popes and Cardinals come from? In the end Hungary, Spain and Poland would totally dominate the College of Cardinals as they are the only factions with easy access to enough non-catholics (Potugal as well, but with too few provices they can't make much of an impact).

However, I would like to see the return of inquisitions that got out of control. With the inquisitor (technically he represents an entire group) cleasing the population with mighty fires. That was part of MTW when you had cleaned up the herecy in the province.
Now however it could be the result if the Inquisitor fails too many times in individual inquisitions (which is what I hope for).

The stories of Mr FlameHappy made me laugh so hard I nearly woke up my girlfriend (and perhaps some neighbours). Same goes for the crazy naval burnings.

Anyway, my own crazy encounter can easily join these for pure "huh?!?!?!" 'ness.

I am still playing the first campaign, HRE (fond memories). And as we know the HRE is pretty bad off with the Pope. And it being my first campaign I have no idea how important churches and priests are. So I move ahead on a loyalty basis for the cities and castles. That means churches and chapels here and there, but not everywhere.

Suddenly I seems to be watching a monochromic screen. There are black and white men with widebrimmed hats everywhere. Especially near Staufen (I had apparently let herecy go a bit wild there 12% or some such, more than enough it seems). Incidentally I had two of my three priests there (the third and my cardinal were actively converting people at Stettin). One turns heretic and one inquisitor burns the other. The other inquisitor scatter and burn what they find here and there. A French general, a couple merchants ect ect.

Just around then the Pope had announced a Crusade to Jerusalem.
He had barely gotten a single mouthful of air before he yanked poor Emperor Heinrich the Chivalrous before him and yelled, "HEINRICH! If you are not on that crusade within 10 turns I will send your poor excuse for a rear end to Hell faster than you can say 'Excommunication'!!!"
In his endless wisdom my empror decided that it was the time for Germany to join the Crusade to Jerusalem. And as such he collected all the mailed knights he could, even the first Teutonic Knights in Germany, and moved south from Hamburg.

In the meantime the inquisitors made realtions between Germany and the west impossible. No diplomat, merchant or whatever managed to get past their wall of fire. I even lost a general who was laying siege to Bern (had to call that off) and a prince who came to salvage that situation. Oddly the heretic walked around safely as other targets went up in flames. Thus the inquisition managed to be kept alive (inquisitors cleaning up heretics, heretic creating new heretics).

I had by then understood the seriousness of the Inquisitors, but counted my interior safe. As soon as I could join the crusade, I did. I quickly hired all the good crusader mercs I could (saved a spot for later better troops I hoped). But Heinrich was out of moves.

The nearest inquisitor finally tried the heretic and obviously failed. That sort of made him look around for easier targets, like a bully that has just been punched in the nose. Someone had to pay. So he moved inland.

Heinrich had to move and did so, ending up near Nürnberg. Then the inquisitor turned the bend in the forest and promptly built a stake of gilded wood for my dear emperor. And that was the end of Emperor Heinrich the Chilvarous (btw the last chivalrous emperor... maybe a reason for that).
I managed to salvage the crusade, but the prince that took over also got tried, and luckily made it (as I had no more generals around to save the troops). He even got a nice little +1 piety trait (Conforming).

To see the inquisitor chase after the emperor now that he was about to get away, especially after failing to kill a heretic was half amusing, half infuriating. It was like he had a mission. Kill Heinrich before his crusade leaves Germany.

Btw I managed to lose another general near Bern to inquisitors (and later I pruned an emperor and his heir outside the walls, but that is another story).

The result of all this made me cheat with some assassins to create the Pope-killer Fritz. Enough was enough...

I'd always er on the side of simplicity rather than re-do the whole concept as you suggest Burns.

As Kraxis says...lets lower the percentage success rates a tad (understatement) and go from there. A few more concept changes and I think we are good to go.

I wish my bribes would succeed HALF as much as the inquisitors do...I mean COME on...all of a sudden no one takes bribes anymore :furious3:

Have you not noticed that piety has nothing to do with weather or not an inquisitor goes after some one. I have lost several cardinals to the little men with hats. In my first go with the game I used them to improve my assassins or weed out the weak ones. Usually this meant I needed about a dozen to get rid of the little guysBUT THENin the next game one agent was caught and though I was not at the bottom of the pope's list I was immediately excommunicated for trying to kill an inquisitor:furious3:
I had also mistakenly thought that family members inside cities were safe...but it is plain that they were just humoring me or setting inquisitor ambushes as they just burned the prince. This time I took the 8 step method to revenge and listened to him squeal when he went down.:2thumbsup:
I don't know how the AI decides who to burn or if everyone is just a target of oppertunity... I can live with it for the time within the game but I think they are way over the top and had just as soon that they were out all together as when they come they never burn the heretics but usually kill everyone else.:no:

They do have a mind of their own indeed, when I was playing my campaign with the Papal States, sometimes Inquisitors would just spawn in certain cities and if I don't move them manually, at the end of the turn the AI moves them for me and sometimes go after people.

And piety does play a role in who can burn, I've spent up to four turns trying to burn cardinals from an enemy faction with little success because their piety was off the roof. Which is of course slightly unfair when it comes to faction heirs, unlike priests who can burn hertics to raise piety, it seems like your heir is stuck with whatever piety he has and the only way to maybe raise it is to join a crusade.

I think the inquisition would be rather simple to fix:

- Make piety a less hard trait to come by. Also, a few more default starting piety points would be best, which the generals could then ofcourse lose later if they get some pagan magicians or whatever.

- Copy the priest vs. inquisition defense from MTW1. Basically that means that having a priest in a stack reduces the odds of the inquisition significantly (something like: add half of the priest piety to the generals piety etc.)

- Have some minimum piety rating that makes generals immune to inquisition. This could be something like 5+. It would allow players to pick generals for crusades etc. that are righteuos enough not to get burned for heresy on the way to the holy land :)

- Make king and heir get optional excommunication instead of being burned. That means, if the inquisitor would be successful in burning the king or heir, they get a pop-up that asks if you want to lose the king/heir or get excommed.

- Have idle inquisitors leave faster when the province is deemed "pure". I'd recommend that they disappear instead of moving. Also, have the inquisition kill some citizens when they raise the %-catholics in the province/ reduce the %-heretics. This is a good motive to use priests and not wait for the inquisition to do the work for you.

I would still keep the very basic idea the same as it is now, and not give control to the player for reasons stated by previous posters.

It would give a whoppin lot more motivation to play the college of cardinals game if the control of Inquisitors went over to the player when his man got the Pope job.

For the first time I have actually been troubled badly by inquisitors.

But this wasn't in territory I owned for a very long time, no, it happened in a territory that I recently conquered from the HRE (with the French).

When I quickly checked the state of the province I noticed it had 32% heresy.

Now, when I reloaded a game in which there were inquisitors moving about in a neighbouring province (Anger if I recall correctly) I checked the heresy rating there... and it was really high.

So I tested, and send one of my generals there, and seconds later he got whacked.

I then send a priest there to convert the region as obviously the french weren't doing their duty to God and the Pope.

Eventually the Inquisitor left and I could safely conquer the area. The same happened later with Brugges and Antwerp.

Get rid of heretics before you conquer an area or even move one of your generals in there, but that's just a workaround.


I agree with most of the posters that inquisitors are too powerfull and too annoying.

If it's possible I think that Inquisitors should do the following.

When present in a province they start killing citizens and garissoned.
They massively reduce heresy (as well as convert citizens to the True Faith) and their presence causes unrest.

In this way it should still be hell to have them in your province, as it will increase the chance of riots breaking out which will cause even more damage.

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Actually while the game is a lot of fun, I would personally love to see a "Realism Mod" appear for this one. More provinces, more factions and a smarter and more loyal AI.

Dingo

I wonder about these reports, as I myself only encountered inquisitors during the initial 30 turns. Currently I am in the hundredsomethings turn and I have even caught the whiff of a burning stake for decades. No problem whatsoever with the Inquisition. Am I doing something wrong (or right)?

Pope: My guy since the first pope

Relations: Perfect. If I need to attack a Catholic faction I just pay them something like 1.000 florins and everything is as if it never happened (Ahhh, the healing power of money)

Cardinal college: Save for one Spanish Cardinal, all other seats in the college are mine (insert evil laughter here).

I also tend to keep a regular check on my neighbors, if heresy turns out to be a problem, I lend them my helping hand.

Playing as Venice I had high Papal standing for a long time and never saw an inquisitor in my lands. Once my standing with the Pope dropped down to like 4 and inquisitors sprouted all over the place. I thought it had something to do with piety or how strong the Catholic faith is in a province but basically it seems to be a punishment for being on bad terms with the Pope.