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The people that live today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
Of course people thought differently back then. Just because the Phoenicians did stuff that I consider abhorant doesn't make them less interesting to me, the opposite in fact. Historical characters and nations should be viewed from an amoral perspective, or from their own.
And now, something interesting about Getai =)
http://www.idcdeal.com/productdetail.asp?productid=1065
I’ve seen this film yesterday, it is rumored to be historically accurate and based on real events.
Getai king is sacrificing his son to gain victory over invaders. Some weird stuff about his son is to act as a messenger to their deity, blablabla
Somebody, please, find me a EB_faction, who wasn’t sacrificing their relatives! =)
Yes, both Phoenicians (as early as the 12th century BC) and Carthaginians (in a larger frequency) used cremation on their dead, both adults and young ones. And children remnants had their own private cemetery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibardfast
Been reading more about those excavations made and most of the children urns found belonged to children with LESS than 9 months. So i ask: how can you sacrifice someone who hasnt even born yet? Doesn't this make the theory of either provoked or unprovoked abortions/born dead/young deaths much stronger?
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that's easy. Romans after disasters such as Cannae, 216BC, had the habit of burying alive foreign couples. A greek and a gallic couples were the 'lucky ones'. This is documented. Another one i read about (not sure about the sources) show another foreign couple being buried alive as late as 100BC after a lightning stroke a Vestal Virgins' house. It was interpreted as a disgrace from the Vestal Virgins... lucky for them they were't the ones being buried alive. Not the same can be said when they, Vestal Virgins, broke their vows. Here they would be buried alive with candles and food for 2 days iirc, just to make their final 'holidays' nicer ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
And of course you have the Colosseums and Amphitheaters 'sacrifices'... unless you consider, as a Christian, being thrown to an arena agaisnt some docile hungry lions with a wooden stick (sometimes no stick) and no armour, a fair 'spectacle' :P
Uhm, do you consider sending people into war being a 'sacrifice' as well? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
What about Parthia, did they kill family? Persian culture seem morally "ahead" of the others, especially those who where Zoroastrian.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
Only if these people are King's Leonid Spartans :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
People on this thread need to stop grinding their frelling axes and start talking about baby-killing Carthies!
Some annotations:
a) As a nice illustration, why we should be careful to take (only?) ancient sources at face value, I would like to quote one of my all-time-favorites books – Finkelstein / Silberman: The Bible Unearthed – Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts, New York et al. 2002, p. 39 f.
“The relationships of Israel and Judah with their eastern neighbors are also clearly reflected in the patriarchal narratives. Through the eighth and seventh centuries BCE their contacts with the kingdoms of Ammon and Moab had often been hostile; Israel, in fact, dominated Moab in the early ninth Century BCE. It is therefore highly significant – and amusing – how the neighbors to the east are disparaged in the patriarchal genealogies. Genesis 19:30-38 … informs us that those nations were born from an incestuous union. After God overthrew the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his two daughters sought shelter in a cave in the hills. The daughters, unable to find proper husbands in their isolated situation – and desperate to have children – served wine to their father until he became drunk. They then lay with him and eventually gave birth to two sons: Moab and Ammon. No seventh century Judahite looking across the Dead Sea toward the rival kingdoms would have been able to suppress a smile of contempt at a story of such a disreputable ancestry.”
b) In regards to the population of Carthage:
"Un seul auteur ancien donne une indication sur le nombre d'habitants de Carthage. Il s'sagit de Strabon... Mais le chiffre qu'il avance, 700.000 âmes au début de la troisième guerre punique, paraît élevé pour les specialistes qui font remarquer que d'autres auteurs laissent entendre que la population carthaginoise était beaucoup plus modeste." [Hédi Dridi: Carthage et le monde punique, 2006, p. 68] => Somewhere I found a recent estimation assuming the number of 100.000 inhabitants as most likely.
c) I think, the same author [p. 192 f.] gives a nice overview what the current status of the discussion concerning the Moloch-Topic looks like:
"Il paraît donc difficile d'affirmer, sur la foi des données objectives dont nous disposons, que l'un de ces sacrifices concernait des victimes humaines. Qu'il ait eu des sacrifices humains à un moment donné de l'histoire phénicienne et punique, cela paraît indéniable - les Grecs et les Romains les ont également pratiqués -, mais accepter le caractère permanent, systématique et massif que lui ont donné les auteurs classiques reviendrait à donner plus de credit aux sources externes qu'aux donnés matérielles de l'archélogie punique."
d) Based on c) I see no significant reason, why this aspect should be given a high priority when it comes to the question of how to model the Punic society in the EB environment.
Regards - PTB
Yea one of the getai traits has to deal with the person being offered to the gods as a messenger/sacrifice and being rejected. Here's the text and stuff about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMe
Returned By Zalmoxis
This man was offered in his youth the honor of delivering his people's message to Zalmoxis, but the god rejected him and his impalement failed. Even though his family's position prevented his definitive banishment from society, he is the last man to be trusted in his community.
-6 Influence, -3 to the morale of all troops on the battlefield *ouch that hurts*
I found this website, I don't know what it is, I didn't really look at all of it. (I think it is a tourism thing for Tunisia.) But it has some pictures of the baby cemetary in Carthage: http://i-cias.com/tunisia/carthage02.htm