I would like to see MA mod that is for sure ,it is going to bee very interesting to see several big mods (competition is always welcome)
MTW2 is a great game but mods are keep her alive
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I would like to see MA mod that is for sure ,it is going to bee very interesting to see several big mods (competition is always welcome)
MTW2 is a great game but mods are keep her alive
Exactly. Your mod - your decision. Just take it easy. For majority of people here english is not the first language, so sometimes it happens that a post or two sounds a bit too harsh, judgemental or demanding... It must be frustrating doing a job for others, while they sit back and criticize your work, but you should relax a bit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renown
Anyway, good luck with the mod...
I meant noting bad or criticize MA mod just disuse to make MA mod better and more historical accurate (we no that you cant be 100% accurate)
sorry if sounded like that!
If you want to make good mod make historical accurate ( I think people love that,I do) that will solve your problems with community and with questions like :
why is this faction or unit in mod and that isn't.....:shame:
I have to chip into this conversation.
I completely agree about there simply not being enough slots for all the factions to be in.
But I would perhaps dare to make a suggestion in a different direction.
Ok, the player can PLAY as one of 20 or 30 playable factions. But that doesn't mean that all the others are out of the game.
If anyone played Crusader Kings, they know what a fragmented thing feudal Europe was, and in that game you can play each smallest entity as your faction and see how hard it is to get anywhere...
A map like this: Europe 1300 A.D.
...nicely shows what a mess Europe was back then, and if you look at other maps from these series, you see how many changes occured in a lifetime of each ruler...
But what you have to be aware of is two main concepts:
1. Nationality as we know it today didn't exist, so a for instance German empire did not include Germans only, nor was it run by Germans only (so, I like the concept I saw in the screenshots of a HRE king also being the King of the Czechs for instance). Or England was not run by the English, their wars in France were because of their hereditary claims on france, and famous English kings, like Richard the Lionheart/Coeur de Lion spoke French all their life...(therefore names of units of factions should come from a wide pool of ethnic names of all their ethnicities, famous German generals with French or Czech or Polish names, famous Italian generals with German, French or even English names...)
2. Alegiances changed very rapidly and a part that was today a part of one kingdom, could tomorrow belong to another or go independent.
If this can somehow be adequately modelled into the game, I think it would be great. For instance, HRE had official rule over many teritorries, but often very little actual say in the matters, so even the emperor sometimes didn't get armies he demanded from parts of his empire when demanded. For instance (since I am from Slovenia and know this bit of history somewhat better), the Principality of Carinthia (Karantania) was a ethnically Slavic/Slovene principality back then, which, though a part of the Holy Roman Empire, was militarily, legislatively and financially a lot more independent in decision making, than modern-day Slovenian independent republic is as part of the EU. This was also the case with most vassal relations all over Europe. I'm sure our Serb specialists here could thell us of the level of independence Serbia had even once conquered by Ottomans, or Croats could tell of their relative independence under the formal reign of the Hungarian crown...
How to model this in game? Well, either have the 20 or 30 playable factions start out rather weak, with many independent entities (can the ingame title "Rebels" be changed into "Independents") to first have to subdue its constituent parts and join them all in their kingdoms.
We could have strong, expansionistic or otherwise dangerous independents (thus all the Burgundies, Bulgarias, Serbias, Croatias, Italian city-states, and others would still be ingame, important figures, just not playable), and once conquered, their titles would be added to the conqueror (somehow as it is already planned with titles).
My main point being that the unplayable A.I. controlled "independent" Serbia or Croatia or Bulgaria or whoever could actually expand as well, conquering targets of opportunity, or in scripted directions of expansion...
Another cool feature could be the loyalty issue having an inpact on factions vs. independents. Say a HRE general is made to be the Duke of Burgundy. Eventually for whatever reason his loyalty goes down and he rebells, Burgundy becomes independent and he and his army is immediately moved to Burgundy and he becomes the King of Burgundy, from where he may even attack neigbouring lands to expand his new realm. Vassals were prone to change allegiances or declare independence if they saw advantages in that...
Knights of Honor handled the instability of feudal Europe wonderfuly, with vassals, rebellions, rising and falling kingdoms...would be great if this could somehow be simulated in this game.
The complicated thing in this game is that you have to start with a situation on a certain year, whereas forming of kingdoms was a fluid process with their ups and downs...
But I think the easiest way to justify which faction is playable in the game would be by the criteria, did they have vassals or were they vassals themselves (and by that I mean vassal kingdoms). If they were independent kingdoms first, then became vassals they should not be playable, despite the level of independence under anothers rule. If they were independent first, stayed independent through most of the time a campaign is set to cover, or expanded so that they joined vassal kingdoms to their own domain, they should be playable.
I have no idea if any of what I wrote is practicable, but as in all things in life, noone can accuse you of being biased if you use the same judging criteria for all candidates you chose (cause let's face it, as much as I like commanding highlanders in games, if there wasn't for the movie Braveheart, Scotland wouldn't have made it into half the games you can find it in these days...so congrats for excellent promotion, courtesy of Hollywood. And it can be predicted that if Mel Gibson makes a good movie about the battle of Kosovo, you'll have Serbia in a lot more games that you have today).
Either way, cheers to everyone, thanks to developers for your effort, and forum members for your input, which I always find entertaining to read.
i completely agree but a lot that your asking for cant be done(loyalty). however, ethnic units are possibel in aor. most mods include aor now.
I think that would bee very hard to create
first diplomacy in MTW2 was not priority for CA,simply diplomacy is not complex enough for that kind of game,AI just gets his army and attacks
game is limited with hard code and some things cant be moded
But thet would be nice game :idea2:
Nice post, Triglav. Unfortunately, M2TW isn't friendly to "evolving" kingdom. Each has to take a faction slot. Although you can create rebels with distinct units, rulers, names etc, you can't stop them from being "rebels". They are going to wait for you to conquer them, although I guess the will be slightly tougher than in vanilla.
Scotland is actually very important from gameplay point of view. It makes it more difficult for England to control the isles. In lot of other cases, England easily conquered British Isles, then steamrolled western europe from a highly defencible position. I think putting two faction beside england (both scotland and ireland) is unneccessary, but that is the team's decision.
It is very hard to portray accuretaly medieval europe in M2TW engine. We can just hope that it will be better in some mods than in vanilla...
Your description of medieval europe is 100% accurate. The way the TW series portrays factions as 'nations' is, in my opinion, the biggest flaw in the game's design (programing short comings like diplomacy, AI, etc aside).Quote:
Originally Posted by Triglav
There is a game in development that may interest you. Unfortunately most of the sources of info are in russian, except this thread on twcenter.net:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...t=51229&page=6
The first release is set for march, and will feature only tactical battles. Apparently they are still working on the strategic part and plan to release it in mid 07. Apparently, it will feature something close to what you describe, with around 150 factions - families essentially.
final faction was supposed to be released two weeks ago where is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arfrisco
maybe is not finished,yet!:inquisitive:
Aleksandar, there is wisdom in your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishArmenian
Lucky guess:laugh4:
where is that final faction? those two were released in one week after each other. If i start smtn i must finish it properly. Soon it will be death here if its going like this :skull: :F
We're currently dealing with a few difficulties. Those who were writing these faction descriptions and creating the maps are MIA...thanks for your patience.
Don't worry, things are heating up in the MA forums once again, and the vote will get going very soon.:2thumbsup:
That's good news for a while I thought that MA was dead......
Nothing of the sort, we'll get into the swing of things very soon. Presentation of the third and last faction of the vote is planned to be published on Sunday as usual. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by CaesarAugustus
oh my god, i got scared this was dead. no modders wrote anything at twcenter
TW center--If it is the same as my last visit, is a vile place in my humble opinion. Too much hate. Not a community.
IrishArmenian, I shall remember this great argument of yours ~:rolleyes: when the next Hall of Fame voting commences. Whoever else is in the voting will surely get a vote from me, courtesy of the superpower of Seville, and its great cultural heritage. Nice work.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishArmenian
You like flamenco? Or can I not sense the sarcasm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
I love the fact that flamenco is a more important factor in determining which kingdom in the Middle Ages was more important - apparently building an Empire is nothing compared to coming up with a dance. But hey, I cannot wait for the mod to come out - I can take an important state such as Ireland (not even a real Kingdom) or Armenia and try to rewrite history by stoping the superpower Seville from overrunning Europe with its invincible flamenco dancing infantry :cheerleader: .Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishArmenian
Personally I would love to see Sevilla and Norway. Norway because it will become my favourite factions, Sevilla because it will be #2. Can't you do both, which we download as an option patch, we choose which to install :bounce:
tbh I wouldn't include Serbia simply because all the nationalists want it in, might sound harsh but that is what I would do. I think to most people Western Europe is far more appealing, ask anyone in the streets where Serbia is and they won't know the answer. And they know where Norway and Sevilla are. (Sevilla sounds Spanish, and Norway is pretty close to Holland, but hey)
You obviously have only heard the popular view that Ireland was nothing but a poor backwater in that top left hand corner of the map of Europe, a completely disunited land filled with Rebels and petty kingdoms. You would probably have us split Ireland into Munster, Leinster, Connacht, and Ulster; just because you don't know any better. Ireland was a very wealthy Kingdom (and it was a Kingdom, all bar Dublin, which was led by Gaelo-Norse rulers), in fact you could compare it to the Byzantine Empire, on a smaller scale of course. The Kingdom of Ireland had a very distinct culture, comparable only to Highland Scotland. Ireland's main problem was the loyalty of its Generals. I'll need to get our Irish expert Conn over here, he'll set you straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
As for Seville, it was the most powerful of the Taifa states. It has a culture very distinct from any other factions in MA, and will have a very interesting unit list if it becomes the final faction. Seville also played an important role in prompting the Almoravid invasion of Iberia, calling for help when invaded by Leon-Castille. Bar from filling in an otherwise large viod in the map, Seville would be a very interesting faction, and despite what you say was a very influecial state, that could have became the next Caliphate of Cordoba had it not been betrayed by the Almoravides.
Kavhan, wait until the mod is released before you whine. I am not the Iberian expert here. I was just rattling of an example. Listen to Caledonian.
Caledonian, I appreciate your sense of humor - Ireland comparable to Byzantium. LOL
I find it refreshing that balance is needed everywhere, except the Balkans and that the only bad nationalists are the Balkan ones - the Irish nationalists are great! But anyway, thanks to you guys PM2TW already scored at least one vote from me aganist your mod with its ironic name (apparently historical accuracy is the last thing you are really interested in) in next year's Hall of Fame voting. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way, so keep up the good work.
Note the words: "on a smaller scale"
And yes, Ireland was in a way comparable to Byzantium. It was a comparison originally made by our Irish expert, Conn (and he really is an expert). He compared Ireland to Byzantium and the HRE, as although Ireland was a very wealthy Kingdom, it suffered mostly from the disloyalty of its Generals, and similar internal problems. Just like Byzantium and the HRE.
Hurry up and say something here Conn!
Caledonian, can you please enlighten me, how exactly Ireland compares to the Byzantine Empire? Perhaps Dublin was a Constantinople of sorts, with hunders of thousands of citizens? Or maybe Ireland bravely stood on the way of Asian invaders, preventing them from overrunning Europe? And it was Ireland that played a crucial role in preserving the cultural legacy of the Ancient world?
Common, you really do not want to turn this into a historical iscussion, because it is a debate you cannot win: Serbia and Bulgaria had a far greater impact on Medieval Europe than Ireland or Seville. In fact, I personally find the whole idea of comparing Balkan Empires with insignificent short lived kingdoms offensive. And the gamepley reasons about unit rosters and balancing issues make no sense either - balance is also needed on the Balkans and Balkan rosters can be just as unique.
I am comparing Ireland to Byzantium (Ireland being on a smaller scale), as it was a wealthy and powerful Kingdom, and it did have a very unique and ancient culture, completely unlike any other you'll see in MA. However, just like Byzantium, Ireland suffered from internal problems, disloyal Generals and the like. That is what stopped it from expanding and becoming more powerful. Do you not see my point? I am not trying to say Ireland was as powerful as Byzantium, but it was similar as a faction in many ways.
Obviously, you like that central European area of the map, and would like to see Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria etc as factions. But its just not possible if you want to achieve overall balance in the mod. It's similar to when people argue to have 10 Italian factions, just because there were so many independant city states. Balance need to be achieved across the map. Not to mention that Serbia was barely a Kingdom at the beginning of MA's timeframe, its time to shine came much later. That's why we didn't include other factions such as Burgundy. They may have became significant eventually, but to have them as factions in 1073 when there were others more deserving of the slot would not be historically accurate. MA is about balancing historical accuracy with gameplay and a balanced campaign map.
Even still, Ireland is deserving of a faction slot. You have fallen into the trap of thinking it was nothing but a poor, unintersting backwater on the edge of civilisation. If Ireland had not suffered from its internal problems, it had the potential to field armies to match those of the Kingdom of England. As the player, you would have the opportunity to stabilise Ireland, and let it reach its full potential, which was massive. Should we not include the HRE just becuase internal problems held it back?
Ireland is only laughable to you because of the lack of translated historical documents that plauged Irish history in the past. However, I vaugely remember in the 1980's (?) many documents were found regarding medieval Ireland. The three crowns were very much alive at the time of the game.
It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.
Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list. The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one. This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.
BALANCEQuote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
BALANCE - a one faction Spain, one faction Italy, and five faction Balkans, would not give a reasonable historical representation of Europe in 1073, nor be a good gaming experienceQuote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
You'll see that statement is completely incorrect when we add the third faction tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
That's just mindless, hateful talk, and there's no place for it here. You have nothing constructive to say and you don't like this mod, don't spend time on its forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
I must be Western-Centric because...wait a minute!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
I'm not the man to see about any faction west of Anatolia.
Now, I am aware of Bulgaria and Serbia, but the delicate situation is that if we include one, people will complain as to why we didn' include the other. I am all for having another Orthodox faction, but we only have a 30 faction limit (seeing as me need independents).
I wish my name did not convey my bias, however, bear with me. Ireland is also a large gameplay factor, to counter England becoming a powerhouse in the first 100 turns. They also have their own distinct flavor, and very few other mods are incorporating them as a faction. The great thing about mods is that there is a plethora of them, and each one has its own eccenctricites, tweaks, taste and personality. I suggest trying many mods, and rotating between a few to prevent burnout. That, in my mind, is the most enjoyable experience.
Tomorrow? We live in hope. :2thumbsup:
The only decision I don't like about your faction list is Genoa. What on earth is it doing there? :dizzy2: No worries though. Every other bloody mod on earth seems to add it. :laugh4:
IrishArmenian, it is not your fault that there is a faction limit and that there are no different periods in M2TW and just one starting date instead. What aggravated me and prompted me to leash out at you was your argument that the main reason for not including Serbia and Bulgaria was their insignificance. Considering the cultural and especially the military achievements of the two Orthodox Balkan Tzardoms which dwarf those of Seville or Ireland, I just needed to express what I feel about you and your mod. My feelings have not changed.
BALANCE - a one faction Spain, one faction Italy, and five faction Balkans, would not give a reasonable historical representation of Europe in 1073, nor be a good gaming experience
As it stands before the vote for your final faction, iberia has 3 factions, italy has 4, scandinavia has only 1 (before the vote) and the balkans have 2
And there you have it. That's a point for letting Norway in, as otherwise the Danes can have a great time expanding easely. And if they attack HRE the way will be open for anyone of them. I know little about the cultures of Medieval history, I only know something about things as tools, weapons, houses etc (as I study Archaeology), but I can tell you. If we want to find something interesting, that is interesting for the rest of the world, we prefer to dig in Ireland then in Serbia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beavis
Seeing this, i'm really looking forward to the welcome of the last faction... :2thumbsup:
Beeing a Norwegian I think I should just mention that Norway is a most worthy candidate for this role.
Norway was very importent in northern europe and England, especially in the 10th and 11th century. King Magnus the first (aka the good) was king of both Norway (1035) and Denmark (1042) until he died in 1047.
Magnus the first was the son of our patron saint, King Olaf Digre/Den Hellige (Olaf the stout / the holy). Who died at the battle of Sticklestad.
One of the most famous varangian guards was Harald Harada (hard ruler). He became the comander of the varangian guard, fighting in several battles and sieges in Africa and Italy untill he returned to Norway to become a co-ruler with Magnus the first (Harald was his Uncle and had claim to the throne).
The largest weakness of the norwegians was our lack of cavalry, but inside Norway that was negotiable, because of our nature. The Norwegian armies mostly consisted of farmers and their guards men (they was kind of like the swiss when on campaign), bandits (as in the Battle of Sticklestad) meaning that there was very few full time soldiers and mercenaries. The only full time soldiers was the kings guard (hird). Norway did however have a very good naval and trading tradition, and long ships sailed as far as Greenland, Jersusalem, Constantinopel and even America. Besides the achivements of the vikings, Norway have always had good seamen, as seen in the Dano-Norwegian navy, and the Norwegian Trade fleet in WW2.
Norway did take part in the crusades, among our partisipants was Sigurd Jorsalfarer (Jerusalems farer) I am not sure in wich grade we partisipated but at least we were there :beam: ). We had a good relationship with sweden, and many kings in exile have hidden in sweden.
Among the specially interesting things about Norway as a faction, is the opertunity for special units, like Birkebeinere (Birch legs), Berserkers (Organised Berzerker bands disapered around 1100 after they was outlawed, but they are in the timeframe of the mod, and the kings often had warriors at least called berserkers in their hird), bandits, Freefarmers and even other exotic types of warriors (altough freefarmers can't really be called exotic).
One of the modders mentioned earlier in this thread that this mods goal was to teach people something about history as well as beeing fun and balanced, and IMHO Norway will achive this better than Sevilla, because it gives people the chance to see a unique and somewhat diffrent faction (not as unique as the mongols, but seen among western nations...).
Anyways, this is my attempt to tell people why Norway should get the last nation slot.
"Surrender" to the EU? Yeah, whatever...:surrender:Quote:
Originally Posted by ShapolioKhan
Please try to back up your statements with sensible arguments instead of showing everyone how "open-minded" and "tolerant" you are.
What's with all these patriots anyway? No country is better than the other and no country has a more special history than the other either. It's a mod for a PC-game, not a history book listing every single nation in Europe, Northern Africa and the more western parts of (central) Asia.
I really am not the type of guy to bitch and moan because my faction didn't make it. The modders decided and I wish them best of luck. But this comment is really stupid and unneccesary. Would you mind explaining what exactly were you trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Yes, from all I can tell Serbia had more impact on history in general than Ireland (much thanks to Ireland's isolated geographic position). Like Sarmatian I'm not going to whine about it, but I admit that Serbia seems like a lot more interesting faction than Ireland (both historically and gameplay-wise).
Ireland is more interesting, as it's closer related to Holland here, it had almost the same kind of cultureQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
And next to that I wouldn't go digging in Serbia nowadays, I believe there are still minefields :bounce:
ireland and holland? isnt one.....whatever, im not even bothering with this.Quote:
Ireland is more interesting, as it's closer related to Holland here, it had almost the same kind of culture
No, we are not trying to make you Rums. I don't even believe that is a nationality.
They called themselves "Rum" because they were close to the Romans, the Byzantines.
Let's not turn this into a MA-bashing thread.
You haven't even played the mod.
This is why some of us were uneasy with giving the public a voice. As soon as that is done, people just start voicing their complaints, taking MA's kindness for granted and blasting MA for every little thing.
Disappointed? Maybe, but the mod hasn't been released.
This thread has turned into a nationalist pissing contest. Stop complaining.
I like the look of this mod. The modders seem real clued up, too.
I'd also like to say to people who are complaining, saying; "But these guys aren't in there..." or "But we were a kingdom, too!" that you cannot have a perfect game. It's just not possible. Believe it or not, there is a limit to how many factions can exist, that means that some get missed out and/or fictionally assimilated into others. It happens. You can't please everyone. The developers of M2TW didn't have people screaming that at them, and so some of the game is inaccurate.
Get over it. And don't comment on my lack of posts, this is a matter of logic.
Hah. :medievalcheers:
-Max
:inquisitive: :inquisitive: :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Yep, Serbia, Balkans. Yugoslavia, wars... If that is the extent of your knowledge, than refrain from future comments. But, being a helpful person that I am, I will tell you that you believe wrong. There are no minefields in Serbia. So. people dig freely. And it's not like they can't find anything interesting, for example http://www.robertwernick.com/articles/LepenskiVir.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_VirQuote:
Originally Posted by Stig
There are casett bombs which NATO used bombarding Yugoslavia 1999. And depleted uranium (to be honest, USA used depleted uranium on their allies, Albanians :beam: in Kosovo).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Sorry for off topic.
i vote for sevilla or an andalucians faction
The vote has already closed (see this thread).