Having just skimmed through this thread, i'm faced with the question: does anyone here actually believe the [censored] the museum is passing off as fact?
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Having just skimmed through this thread, i'm faced with the question: does anyone here actually believe the [censored] the museum is passing off as fact?
Only people who already believe it presumeably. Hopefully anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapi
Humans worry me.
:P
All this is reminding me of a quote from some guy on the news the other day - "we're humans, not animals"
I gather he failed biology :laugh4:
Where would I find those?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Frankly that is not the translation I have heard concerning the relative passage from Genesis that I posted about the disobenence of man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
The initial poster did not exactly mince his words. This usually does not bring out the best in other posters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Now he is a Cathar, too. :balloon2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
It must be said I can't think of any secular terrorists either.Quote:
The initial poster did not exactly mince his words. This usually does not bring out the best in other posters.
Not even sure when being secular would be relevant, or really have anything to do with creationism. You could happily be a secular Christian creationist.
Yes, the Cathars. I knew it reminded me of something. Thanks Adrian!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
According to the most recent credible polls, like the one mentioned in the article in the OP and the one linked-to on this board a few months ago, between 50% - 60% of Americans believe what the creation Museum says. Due to the existence and future popularity of the creation Museum, that number is bound to rise even more in the coming months and years. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by sapi
:laugh4: I've been needing to update my sig for a while...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoreBag
Secularism is really nothing more than the recognition that people generally don't want someone elses's beliefs shoved down their throat.
As to bias, I will quite happily attack any unreasonable belief and I will try to do it in a reasonable way.
As to Satan, he has no power, he did not introduce sin into the world. You cannot sin without knowledge. Once man ate the fruit he had knowledge and therefore responsibility, because he had exercised his free will.
Angels on the other hand don't seem to have free will, so how could Satan defy God, unless it was God's will?
also, where in Genesis does it say the serpant is Satan or a servant of Satan.
Satan has about as much power as a retirred tax-man.
Maybe Satan=evil is just a tool. I dont know what others think but while its sad i would say that many times things that mold people better persons are the bad things that happend in life,ofcourse those can turn people also worse,but isnt that the free will of man acting there.~:)
Satan and the idea of hell was really introduced by Greek Scholars, who wanted a little bit of say in Christian Dogma. Judaism doesn't have a hell, or a hell in the same sense Christian use, nor any tangible leader behind all the evil in the world.
However if you take a good look at Greco-Romano Paganism, You will then know were the idea of Hell and Satan come from, Pluto and Hades. Its obvious that some Scholars of the period didn't want to give up their beliefs entirely, so instead changed bits and pieces of the Bible so that it would resemble their own religion and cause less distress among the masses.
Similarly, many of the things that are "evil" are aspects of pre-existing religions to stamp them out more thoroughly, or are adopted as aprt of the religion - either way, ensuring that the only meme that is passed on is this one religion.
~:smoking:
A little bit? The whole basic idea of a transcendent god outside time was a greek interpolation into the apocalyptic Jewish cult that was nascent christianity.Quote:
Satan and the idea of hell was really introduced by Greek Scholars, who wanted a little bit of say in Christian Dogma.
To be fair to Navaros though he follows the arbitrary tribal deity of the old testament, with none of this namby pamby new testament stuff. Its a wonder he even believes in an afterlife.
Well that narrows it down , option Aon the poll in post #51 can be struck out , so that leaves B or CQuote:
According to the most recent credible polls, like the one mentioned in the article in the OP and the one linked-to on this board a few months ago, between 50% - 60% of Americans believe what the creation Museum says.
Man, it keeps me entertained to imagine what would the world be like if, instead of doing everything in the last 6 days, God had actually taken time to think it through... My guess is he was the biggest slacker of all.
I mean, how many projects you did in the last 6 days before the deadline was actually good?
As of the museum itself, don't really have an opinion. As long as it gets people to read and travel, it is all good. They could open another one in Vegas while they're at it. Surely that would mean 5 milion visitors a year instead of just 1.
Nearly every museum in the U.S. If you can't find one of those, you should really stay in doors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
Dude, there is a difference between discussing and insulting religion. If I said half the things about mulsims that these people say about Christians, every muslim on this board would be rightly offended. Even if I said something both true and objective, such as islam is a religion of war, or the islamic religion is anti-female (Not that islamic people are, but that the religion is), I would probably be banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
They can discuss their opinions of religion without throwing out slurs and jabs and insult about God, Christianity, and Christians. (In case you couldn't figure it out, all the insults, slander, and false accusations people on this board have said about Christian, they have said about me and other board members.) Again, think of it in a way that your politically correct little head may understand: If I said that all muslims were stone age, wife beating, murderous, sadistic perverts (all things said about christians on this board) I'd be banned. I find it VERY insulting and VERY offending when people say those things about Christianity. (Tell me, what would you do if I said all evolutionists were stupid cavemen?)
These people are mature and should be able to discuss religion; but should be made to do so in a mature way, not like a bunch of little schoolgirls.
I like the backroom and would like to continue here, but I find people's attitude and actions (and the moderators job of moderating) quite appalling.
I assure you, you know a LOT less about christianity than you suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren Son Of Barahi
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex
GOD said that man could eat meat, not satan. See a discussion, not a mob stoning. Surely this is an improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsMaster
That's why you are not God ;)
I don't think there is anything wrong with insulting religious beliefs. If people can't defend themselves maybe they need to rethink what they are dedicating (wasting?) their lives to.
That's not the same as ignorantly damming a whole group of people though just due to religion.
So I'd say insulting creationists beliefs is fine, whereas saying all Christians are ignorant haters of progress is clearly not true.
Vuk:
The one who makes the argument, gives the example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
So you don't like people insulting religions and other ideas they find absurd. Fine enough. Well then,Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Apparently you haven't followed your own advice very well. :juggle2:
Thou shalt not insult other members. Okay. That's good advice. So...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Wasn't this an insult to another member? :idea2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
The problem is, nobody's been saying that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Also, please stop using the term "evolutionist." It is very offensive to me since that label is created with the inherent intention to slander and demean.
:smug:
You said all that I needed to say. Congratulations for the town of Petersburg; I believe the museum would produce a nice boost in revenue for the local economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordmaster
Obviously I'm not threading near the "discussion" going on.
I am not insulting the religion, I am making a statement of fact, and one I am qualified to make. If anyone here has read the koran and would like to discuss it with me, start a new thread - I am completely willing to hold what I said and defend it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Most people here throw out stupid, schoolgirl accusation about Christians and Christianity without understanding Christianity, or, probably, even reading the Bible. I have not read the Bible in years, but I count myself qualified to make statements about Christianity in a Historical and Theological sense as well as state my own beliefs. Most people on this board know nothing about Christianity except what was fed to them in school. ei. that Christians are racist, kitty murdering wackos stuck in the stoneage.
...
Apparently you missed the whole point of my statement.
I was not insulting him but simply trying to make him aware of his predjudice and the fact that I am trying to put it in a way that will help him overcome it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
??????????Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Defend it, then. Else I'll be forced to "make a statement of fact" about "Christianity" (what sect are we talking about anyway? If it's Navaros' brand then I have no clue which denomination he follows) that I don't have to defend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Yup. More insults. And strawmen. Avoiding "direct" insult with "most people" and "schoolgirls" don't make it any less of an insult. Besides, like I said, nobody's been throwing around accusations that Christians are dumb, kitty murdering racists stuck in the stone age. You gotta quote the guilty person out for us to see, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Which is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Yeah sure. Not insulting, just condescending. :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
As this discussion you are moving torward has moved quite off topic, may I suggest you repost this in a new thread. I am afraid I am going offline now, but I'll be back tomorrow or later today. If you seriously want to discuss this make a new thread and name it something I can recognize.
Till then
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Most people on this board know nothing about Christianity except what was fed to them in school. ei. that Christians are racist, kitty murdering wackos stuck in the stoneage.
But but but ...there was no stone age , the so called stone age is still in existance today with people who wandered from the path of Gods righteousness .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Hey Vuk , if you want to defend a bunch of fruitcakes because they call themselves Christian and you see yourself as a Christian also , it might be an idea to find out about the fruitcakes you wish to defend .
Christians like Muslims come in many different flavours . People who call themselves Christian like Ken Ham does is fruit and nut flavour , there are others worse , a lot worse that are purely nut flavoured , can we see you springing to their defence aswell just because they call themselves Christian ?
AntiochusQuote:
If it's Navaros' brand then I have no clue which denomination he follows
That is because he will not say which denomination he folows , neither will he say which version of the Bible he believes is the one true literal word of god (thats why I am tending towards option B in the poll)
In reply to post 102 from vuk.
firstly i was not talking about my self, as an atheist i am not even remotely interested in what most religions says about anything, although i find some of what Budisim talks about to have a practical worth to it . i have never claimed to be an "expert" in religion, although some people on these boards do know a whole heap about it, and some of these people have come out again the first poster.
secondly, if you knew anything about Islam, you would know that it is the interpretations of the qur'an that make Islam such an easy target, and such an easy tool for people to abuse. A lot of popular or misrepresented parts of the qur'an are the ones that causes the most trouble. Also Islam is most common among poor and uneducated people in some of the harshest parts of the world.
for the most part Islam is about the inner struggle and fighting the urges from within (jihad). Eastern religions tend to take on form of binding effect that works along old lines of tribe, lands, countries, cultures and races, it is also is adapted to rally people in times of need, like invasions, of which there has been heaps...this is where it gets the war like tags, the middle-east is not divided up in to nice neat little countries, it is much more complex then that, with tribes, races, religions and countries all playing a role in what happens and what happens in one place might effect others, this is where the US got into so much trouble. like wise i am more then happy to converse with you about this, mind you i am a AID worker and not a Imam, so my knowledge is more based in real life, having lived and worked in the largest Muslim country in the world...i know a little about it.
as others have said, point out what is offensive to you, so people can be more careful, or the mods can step in if needed. the initial poster didn't start out in a nice way, and you seem to be throwing things around too. on the other hand, be a big boy and suck it up a little.... if we can handle it surely with the strength of your convictions you can too...
on another note, wasn't there a survey of the highest ranking high schools and colleges in the US, one of the questions was which side was germany on in WWII and over half of the people asked said the Allies>? polls are pretty good for nothing. polls can be made to say anything you want them too.
http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/new...gion/flash.htm
That's really, really sad. :thumbsdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
It makes me worry that the majority of people in the most powerful nation on earth can't acknowledge pure scientific fact when it's stated plainly and simply and instead have to regress to spirituality to find a 'nicer' answer.
Hey Sapi , what Navaros wrote about the poll isn't true , so don't get too sad about it :2thumbsup:Quote:
That's really, really sad.
i dont see why its sad? --> they're allowed to have an opinion.. im willing to bet that creationists can come up with just as much "pure scientific fact when its stated plainly and simply" to back they're argument....Quote:
Originally Posted by sapi
why? insulting any belief of any kind (and that includes creationist beliefs) is wrong, arguing against them is fine...Quote:
Originally Posted by BDC
those arent true at all, but besides that its quite a good point...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
:2thumbsup:
I guess they can be given brownie points for trying, true enough. The problem is their "facts" have a funny tendency to collapse in the face of sustained probing, in a fashion not found in tenable scientific theories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
Why do you think they've been down to "intelligent design" for a while now ? 'Cause everything else they've tried has already been debunked, and that one holds for the time being mainly on obstinancy as well.
The Genesis just sort of lacks street cred when pitted against carbon dating so to speak.
im sure they would say the same about opposing facts,Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
i never believe science, because just like religion (including genesis) all facts can be interpreted and even manipulated --> :2thumbsup:
I believe in the computer I'm typing this with, though. It's applied science.
Let's see applied faith pull off with any meaningful degree of reliability the same stuff it can do.
You might find a link to his denomination at the following site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
http://www.creationism.org/topbar/li...ionIntl_CANADA
I do not follow any denomination. Jesus said that Christians are supposed to be of one mind and have no division of thought among them, and that one mind is to believe in him and everything stated in the Bible. Denominations run contrary to that.
Dude, you crack this appallingly PC pinheaded mod up. Doesn't happen everyday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
+1 acumen. :bow:
p.s. To my mod collegues: I must recuse myself from judgment in this thread, since I got personally involved (somehow). I'll stay out to avoid flame-fuellage. My apologies. :bow:
Well KukriKhan if you have a head that must wear asize 10 hat could you please teleport my mail to me, and insure that my check from Ed for $1 million arrives on time. Thanks in advance, but then you probably already knew that given the nature of your ESP.:clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
[emphasis Yunus]Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
erm learning to spell it would be a start :yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran
In Arabic grammar, the word "Qur'ān" (not Koran) constitutes a masdar (verbal noun) and is derived from the Arabic verb قرأ qara'a ("to read" or "to recite") which is the root
:book:
Im sure Christians wouldnt like it if I refered to the Biabal.
as you say a topic for another thread
Topic: this whole poo fight appears to me to have evolved due to the confrontational manner this thread was started
had it been Christians "Got museum?" :2thumbsup:
Im sure it would not have been attacked or should I say counter attacked by the science club - instead the OP chose a more confrontational approach ala
Now we got a museum we can enlighten mankind that evolution is BS - in your face DARWIN :thumbsdown:
which is always going to agitate a percentage of the members
:clown:
[edit] GAH speeling
Might wanna quote from a credible source of information when attempting to prove someone else incorrect, which Wikpedia most definitely is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yunus Dogus
Sure I made a position clear with this thread title and the original post, but I see that done on this board all the time by people on the opposite side of the fence. Many people on this board were inevitabley going to call creationism BS in this thread regardless of the thread title or content of the original post. If I'm the one making the thread, might as well be pro-active with the same style that will be forthcoming in it from opposition posts. Evolutionists making threads in support of their beliefs certainly do.
Are you attempting to justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior? Isn't that rather un-christian of you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Don't agree with that characterization. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
In my view this post is highly absurd. Carbon dating has been debunked as being wildly inaccurate and the "results" of it therefore are based on wild speculation about a wildly inaccurate method. Definitely little to no credibility in carbon dating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
University of Southern Californ I A
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/
hey if you cant trust the islamic city - who can you trust
http://www.quran.org.uk/
The Quran has its own org!!! Lets hope their as well informed as our Orgers
I googled Koran and got the following:
About the Koran
This is an electronic version of The Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., in 1983. The text was provided by the Online Book Initiative and subsequently marked up at the HTI in SGML. Like all the versions of this text derived from the Online Book Initiative, it is not free from errors. We will strive to correct any errors pointed out to us.
Hm looks like only the page title and then in the description they correct it
yeh - wikipedi = dodgy I agree - but not in this case
[Edit] Just read your recent post - two words - FOSSIL RECORD
dude the rocks dont lie - short of the big G man himself appearing to me in my office and saying "Dude - I just put those things there for people like you - who like to study them" and then maybe
For one that claims a superiority in religious morality - someone is forgetting one of the basic tenants of his religion. I find that rather interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Oh boy this gets even better.Quote:
In my view this post is highly absurd. Carbon dating has been debunked as being wildly inaccurate and the "results" of it therefore are based on wild speculation about a wildly inaccurate method. Definitely little to no credibility in carbon dating.
Rocks may and fossils may not lie but mankind's incorrect interpretation of them in order to support evolution is often lies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yunus Dogus
Here's a link to some expert debunking on the subject:
http://www.creationism.org/books/Tay...ylorIMMd04.htm
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Which Bible Nav?Quote:
I do not follow any denomination. Jesus said that Christians are supposed to be of one mind and have no division of thought among them, and that one mind is to believe in him and everything stated in the Bible. Denominations run contrary to that.
Jerry the Sperm Whale's "Bible O' Revelations." second editionQuote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Oh man. So good. I love the word "O'".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
yeah - I had a brief glance over that link - erm sorry but that is entirely garbage - only someone with very little knowledge of geology would believe any of those selected 'facts'. Being a palaeontologist I could debunk all the debunking - but that would be too much like work and I cant be bothered. Besides which science requires you have an open mind to new ideas - not a closed one full of supersticious preconcieved idea.
Scientists make observations and hypothesise a model (theory) which best fits the observations
Creationist have a model and go around looking for observations to fit it
see the difference
If people want to delude themselves thats upto them, personally I feel its every mans responsibility to inform himself about the world around him. And draw his own conclusions. If you dont want Christianity debunked then dont go around attempting to debunk the models of others.
Having spend the last 15years or so of my life studying this earth and the living things on it (both past and present) - In my view - there is no doubt - evolution of this planet both biologically and geologicaly is the best fit for the mountains of evidence and observations we now have. The only thing you can truely be certain of is change itself.
from your link
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
These happen to be my thing - my specialty is as a micropalaeontologist (try saying that when you've had a few beers and chatting up a woman at the bar) - I study the fossilised tests (shells) of microscopic foraminifera. The tests show morphological changes through geologic time (or the deeper you go into the rocks), they are popularly used by oil companies to 'age date' the rocks of their reservoirs - these ages are relative of coarse ie older than that form but younger than that one - when tied to other radiometric (polar reversals, Sr isotope, and Argon dating) forms of chronostratigraphy the absolute age can be determined.
As far as those geoid rock eggs - Im pretty sure they form by progessive crystalization of the magma around an air void. ie as the magma cools different mineral are crystalised out in progressive inner rings, as the composition of the magma changes due to the parts already crystalised, different minerals are crystalised in progressively larger crystals. As it cools the crystals formed become larger and larger due to the lower temp, the mafic mineral usually are the first, (the dark outer shell) and the felsic ones the last (the light quartz crystals) in the middle.
These should not be confused with stalagtites and stalagmites which form in caves through the gradual precipitaion of ground water - how can you tell the difference - everyone knows 'tights always come down'
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
see now this is not getting my work done ....
[edit] its not the words themsleves but the typing them thats the problem...
Funny, Navaros disagree's with you here. Navaros claims that the god Yawe intended for man not to eat meat. That infact he intended for no one to eat meat, not even lions. That eating meat is a corruption brought by Satan himself. An idea I think PETA is readily supporting if not outright trying to spread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Show me the study. Because the last poll I heard with results like this was a cluster poll that for some reason or another had a fascination with people from Kentucky and Tenessee. Though even if these were the real statistics, and the majority did believe this, why is there a need for a conversion museum?Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Honest Warrior! That's +3 morale to Kukrikhan.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
It is ironic how all these "untrustworthy dating techniques" have been used to date the bible and many other religious objects. And I didn't hear any so called christians complain about it being inaccurate.
By the way, believing in any kind of superior being doesn't in any way mean that belief in a book is necessary.
One of the rules I live by is:
"Beware of all men that read one book only"
And I am willing to advocate that that is one of the most sensible ones. I recommend it.
Sir, as a connoisseur of pwnage, I salute you for an especially fine example.Quote:
These happen to be my thing - my specialty is as a micropalaeontologist (try saying that when you've had a few beers and chatting up a woman at the bar) - I study the fossilised tests (shells) of microscopic foraminifera. The tests show morphological changes through geologic time (or the deeper you go into the rocks), they are popularly used by oil companies to 'age date' the rocks of their reservoirs - these ages are relative of coarse ie older than that form but younger than that one - when tied to other radiometric (polar reversals, Sr isotope, and Argon dating) forms of chronostratigraphy the absolute age can be determined.
Also I will never again get a stalagmite and stalagtite confused. So, there, this thread HAS achieved something. :laugh4:
Heretic , the apostates who follow the first edition are bad enough but them second editioners are the spawn of Stan (thats Stan the eight tentacled monster of the depths with evil intentions of suckering any of Frogs followers why stray from the holy Shoal )Quote:
Jerry the Sperm Whale's "Bible O' Revelations." second edition
True believers only follow the authors own notes as sent to the publisher before proof reading .:yes:
Yanus , have you read the Cretinist "scientific" explanation for chalk on Hams website ?
It might give you a good laugh .
I'm confused how you can supposedly debunk radio-carbon dating. Radioactive decay is very predictable, and you can clearly see it happening with isotopes of shorter half-lives.
It'd be like living a billion years and clearly seeing evolution occuring, then saying it isn't happening.
Well mistakes can be made in the process , which means it must be a flawed scientific method because it is not perfect like G*d would do it .Quote:
I'm confused how you can supposedly debunk radio-carbon dating.
But the main reason it can be debunked is because the Bible says that the earth is only a few thousand years old , carbon dating says otherwise so carbon dating is obviously wrong and therefore thouroughly debunked .
BTW anyone seen Hams Tuesday news article ?
There is a carving at Ankor which clearly proves that people were living with dinosaurs in Cambodia less than a thousand years ago :yes:
I can't believe I missed this quote.
Lies and slander! You Christians just don't have the nerve to admit that Satan had the good sense to invent bacon and your god didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
If god wanted us to be perfect he wouldn't have invented the taste bud... or maybe it was evolution's way of telling a human wether something was likely poisonous or not...
like a whale in a bath-tub, vuk and Navaros are out of their depths. like i said Vuk, if you want to talk about the Qur'an or Islam, i am more then happy to.
to the other Christians here; just because people are attacking the statements made by vuk and Navaros, doesn't mean we are attack you or your religion.
also if wiki is a bad source of information, the surely relying on "www.creationism.org" for expert advise on radioactive dating, is certainly worst.Quote:
Here's a link to some expert debunking on the subject:
http://www.creationism.org/books/Tay...ylorIMMd04.htm
BTW expert in what exactly?? i' am an expert at farting in the mornings, but thats doesn't mean i should run about proclaiming the sun is a giant ball of orange juice...:spider: :whip:
Considering the rampant rise of oral herpes, that must not be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakizashi
Navaros doesn't qualify as any type of Christian as far as I am concerned, so you can attack his beliefs and statements as much as you want, absolutely nothing to do with me. I'll even join you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren Son Of Barahi
I do actually want to talk about Islam. This "people of the book" thing which covers Christians and Jews. Does it mean that we don't go to hell? Or is it just that you're suppossed to put up with us, rather like the unfortunate cousin?
I'm not stirring, it's a serious question, because according to the Bible, tolerance or no, it's Jesus or the pit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall
Firstly i am not an Imam (the best people to answer questions about Islam), i am not even Muslim , i worked in indo as an aid worker for a long time, but having lived there i have had a pretty up-close look at the worlds biggest Muslim nation. Like i said earlier i am not as knowledgeable about the Qu'ran as i am with the real life workings of Muslims.
The Qu'ran just like the bible can be quoted to say just about anything, the focus of hardliners would be along the lines of any non believer is an infidel, without mention of the parts that state that tolerance is a main requirement of all Muslims. The moderates would say that tolerance, understanding along with love of all gods children is more important. there is however a strong feeling due in coarse of the history of invasions with-in the Muslim world that infidels on Muslim soil is to be meet with force. i can't give a good answer, but i will try to get one for you....
EDIT:: i have found link, it looks like the older style of moderates.::http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.c...e_muslims.html
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.c..._of_islam.html
it might be considered watered-down left crap by some, but many feel that the extreme views get too much credit.
jesus is where Islam and Christians differ, Islam has many prophets but only one god, the Prophets are not god themselves. the the emphases being on the Prophet Muhammad and god (Allah), where as Christians worship Jesus as the lord Christ and savior, believing that God and jesus are one and the same??
Same old creation bunk...same old evolution bunk...
Paul Feyerabend folks...Paul Feyerabend... :yes:
Anything goes :bow:
Beren: The Nicaean Creed established the Holy Trinity, one God with three faces, Yaweh being one, Jesus another and the Holy Ghost the third. However, other pre-Nicaean Christian sects, such as the Arians took a very different view.
Arian Christianity views Jesus the same way Islam views Mohammed.
Sorry, but I've been away for a while. Don't have much time now, but I will try to do my best...then I'll read all the posts I've missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Alright, lets take the war like nature of islam first.
I think it best to copy verses direct from my koran.
VIII/12: When thy Lord inspired the angels (saying:) I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
XCVIII/6: Lo! those who disbelieve, among the people of the Scripture and idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
IX/5: Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor- due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
IX/73: Oh Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.
LXIX/30-37: (It will be said)Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in Allah the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat.
XLIV/43-50: LO! the tree of Zaqqum (The tree that grows in the heart of hell bearing fruits like devil's heads) - the food of the sinner. Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies as the seething of boiling water. (And it will be said): Take him and drag him to the midst of hell, then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water. Saying: TASTE! LO! thou wast forsooth the mighty, the noble! Lo! this is that whereof ye used to doubt.
IX/123: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you and let them find harshness in you and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
IV/144: O Ye who believe! choose not disbelievers for your friends in place of believers. Would you give Allah a clear warrant against you ?
And the one I love:
IX/29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.
Sorry that is all I can do, I am very busy. Will come back soon with the one on women.
EDIT: Here also are some not from the koran, but very important to muslim teachings.
Sahih Al Bukhari, 216:"I have been ordered to fight against people until they testify that there is no God but Allah & that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah & until he performs the prayers & pays the Zakat."
Sahih Muslim, 217: "Verily Allah has prescribed proficiency in all things. Thus if you kill, KILL WELL, & if you slaughter, SLAUGHTER WELL. Let each one of you sharpen his blade."
Now THAT'S peacefull
Dude, you need to read the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
There's nothing in what you just posted that can't be matched intolerance-for-intolerance with quotes from the OT.
All of the Big 3 religions have in their basic tenets a precedent for killing or forcing conversion on non-believers.
I'm listening...Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Pardon me as I dust off my koran now and search for some good verses about islamic views on women.
What are women to islamic peoples:
II/223: Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate). So go to your tilth as ye will...
I don't like to compare religions, but you are always bashing Christians and saying they are evil and treat women poorly (which is BS as Christian men treated women better than any other men in the world did....), but if you read what the Bible says about women, it says that they are meant to be "an Help Mate", and a blessing, and only good things - a stark contrast to what muslims say!!
IV/34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.
First verse is about women and second is about men.
IV/15: If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.
IV/16: If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.
XXIV/6-7: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...
From the hadith:
If a woman's conduct is mischievous or immodest, the husband has the right to beat her up but must not break her bones. She must not allow anybody to enter the house if her husband does not like him. She has the right to expect sustenance of her husband. (TR. P 439)
It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (TR. P 430)
A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father
A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (TR. P 432)
She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (TR. P 265)
A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (TR. P 300)
If prostration were a legitimate act other than to God, woman should have prostrated to her husband. (TR. P 428)
If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse the woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428)
The marriage of a woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440)
A woman who seeks KHULA i.e. divorce from her man, without a just cause, shall not enter paradise. (TR. P 440)
Majority of women would go to hell. (Muslim P 1431)
If a woman refuses to come to bed when invited by her husband, she becomes the target of the curses of angles. Exactly the same happens if she deserts her husband's bed. (Bokhari P 93)
Women who are ungrateful to their men are the denizens of hell; it is an act of ingratitude for a woman to say: "I have never seen any good from you." (Bokhari P 96)
A woman in many ways is deprived of the possession of her own body. Even her milk belongs to her husband. (Bokhari P 27) She is not allowed to practise birth control either.
Man I'll tell you, I would not like to be a muslim woman. Again, while I seriously dislike comparing religions, as this is about not being able to say true things about islam and other religion v.s. throwing out insults about Christianity, I think it appropriate to say, I'd rather be a Christian woman than a muslim woman any day.
Mod: If I am wrong, then please delete last paragraph.
*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
I didn't think I'd have to bother, since you claim to be a Christian, and it's fairly well known even among us infidels that the Bible is full of crazy stuff, but okay:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:12
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. Deuteronomy 13:7-12
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. Leviticus 24:10-16
And you were saying something about women?
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. Deuteronomy 20:10-14
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. Deuteronomy 22:23-24
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11
Oh, I don't know. It doesn't look like the Bible is any easier on women than the Quran is...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren Son Of Barahi
firstly, your quotes fall under the above....In regards to Muslim Women, how much of that is culture and how much is religion? like all religions, Islam has been used for centuries to maintain control, or is used to keep people in power. but in Islam women and men are not treated as equals.
I would suggest if your going to quote the Quran you learn how to spell it first. Which if you owned a copy you would know. Therefore I say all your reference are invalid and probably some anti-Islamic propaganda you've trolled up from Christian websites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
As said the biabal has equally as violent statements regarding non believers, Im pretty sure I saw it quoted in the Athiest thread
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=73476&page=2
post 146
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Should you persist in deliberately misspelling the Quran - I will consider it a slur against the Islamic faith
Nor are they by fundamentalist Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren Son Of Barahi
My point was that adequate proof can be found in either book to support the idea that both Islam and Christianity have their basis in hate and intolerance.
But for the most part, moderate practitioners of both religions ignore all the really evil stuff.
It tends to be kind of inconvenient anyway.
Just wondering Vuk , since you are now studying Islamic scripture :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: , could you tell me what it says about how people who righteously follow the teachings of the Torah or the Bible should be treated ?
Or does the website you found only seek out whatever negative snippets it can cobble together ?
As a side topic on the position of women in different religeous groups , have any of you ever been to a Jehovah's Witness wedding ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yunus Dogus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
I do not see that the bible is even in any small way near anything like the koran.
So there are two possible options .Quote:
I do not see that the bible is even in any small way near anything like the koran.
It is either a case of you haven't read your bible or you are living proof that there are none so blind as those who will not see .:thumbsdown:
Well, christianity is based on the new testament, the jews base their views on the old testament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
It's nice that youfound some quotes from the old testament, but one could say these rules don't really count for christianity anymore. Christians also don't sacrifice young lambs anymore, do they?
Well the topic is fundamental Christains and the literal acceptance of every word from the Bible as the divinely inspired absolute truth .Quote:
Well, christianity is based on the new testament, the jews base their views on the old testament.
It's nice that youfound some quotes from the old testament, but one could say these rules don't really count for christianity anymore. Christians also don't sacrifice young lambs anymore, do they?
So if they reject the truth about laws of God as set out in old testament scripture then what about the truth about the story of creation ?
Now Nav has been asked about this before , but all we got was a "well some of those laws don't apply any more because ....well because...." his ability to maintiain the wind up let him down when he couldn't identify which laws didn't apply and where there was later scripture saying they didn't apply .
So remember Husar , this topic isn't about Christainity as such , it is about the fundamentalist young earth cretinist branch .
As a little diversion , can anyone name the President of a Republic from the beginning of the last century(and the end of the previous one) whose fundamentlist Christian view was that the earth was indeed flat and not roundish at all ? (clue , he had rather a big beard) .
The point is that while christianity transformed mainly to a good form (faith in jesus, going to church, charity etc) with only a few exceptions, the majority of muslims take the koran quite literally, especially the woman part.
This is untrue. It might apply for deists, pantheists, pagans (heathens) or simple deniers. But the truth is that, logically (if that has any value on religion) Jesus came to fulfill the second "pact" between the people of Israel and God (the first made way back on the time of the twelve tribes), to save them (a lot of doctrine here, I will just jump it), as such it follows that both testaments have to be read as a whole total reveletion, wheter it's from man or God. If it's from God, and God is perfect, then there's no excuse to ignore the first and consider only the second, even with all their evident contradictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Apart from that, there was never a single word from the first Church wich stated that the Old Testament was not to be taken as a part of the christian faith, in fact many very old rules from those books still apply up to date, like the 10 commandments of course.
Is true, however, that you'll find a lot of people who call themselves christians because they allegedly follow the teachings of a man who lived thousands of years ago in the land of Palestina and Israel called Jesus. Now considering that the supposed history of this holy man is only told through the recounts of their partners (wich in many cases results in contradictory doctrine), I don't know how can anyone seriously say that they deny such paragraphs of such apostle or prophet, but they consider the other as valids. Christian is only that who accepts a group of basic principles of faith upheld by the Church as a whole, if he upholds his own basic principles is just an ordinary deist, wich happens to consider this person Jesus as someone holy.
As far as I know, and I know some jewish people, most jewish don't sacrifice lambs either. This is without a doubt the work of time and the increase of city's sizes and city's populations. Nothing directly related to faith, though it has several derived effects on it, evidently.
Finally, and this is somewhat a tiresome rethoric already, but, anyone who reads words or sees a picture and worships them will have serious problems when trying to not become a fanatic. Words are only valid if there's a reason to support them, and this reason has to be more than the simple fact that they were written by a given author in a given time or in the vein of certain ideals.
And you know this from what exactly...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cataphract_Of_The_City
And moreover, have fun sorting out how much of that is actual religious content and how much is good old patriarchical conservatism of the same school thanks to which women in Christian countries were long told God made them intellectually inferior and whatnot and, as such, also not eligible to vote and so on...
You know, the same sort of stuff thanks to which the Finnish state church still hasn't gotten it through to all the clergymen that they're not allowed to decline working with female priests.
you have been shown to be incorrect, your continued beligerance is ignorant at best, biggoted and blinkered at worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
You and people like you are one of the reasons I have walked away from the Christian faith - the views you express about other religions are not what I would consider 'Christian' in any good sense of the word. Its interesting how you came in here crying about scientist attacking Christianity and now you zealously do exactly that to Islam.
pot meet kettle
*the ignore function has become my new best friend*
bye Vuk I wont be suffering any more of your biggoted views :thumbsdown: