Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.
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Originally Posted by doc_bean
I'm not sure about the US, your agricultural sector is structured differently from ours, prices would go down though.
I thought that the prices for EU products were artificially kept low, as a means of protectionism against third world crops?
Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.
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Originally Posted by Kralizec
I thought that the prices for EU products were artificially kept low, as a means of protectionism against third world crops?
Prices are below what would be profitable for crops grown in Europe without subsidies, but the protectionism means that we don't allow third world countries to sell at a price that would be profitable to them, which would be a far lower price than we are paying today.
Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.
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Originally Posted by BDC
No. They wouldn't be able to sell it all for enough to bother doing it. (Presumably.)
I disagree. If you look at the yield a farmer in Iowa gets when he plants wheat, versus what yield a farmer in Niger gets, even with the Iowa farmer's higher salary, he cleans up, because his crop yields are exponentially higher than the Niger farmers.
This is the problem with reforming agricultural policy. If we had been allowing market forces to keep up for the past hundred years, we'd have a stable system. But we've artificially constrained market forces for some time. Remove those constraints, and all sorts of wild things will happen.
My above example is just one example. Let's look at some others:
-Right now, there is a trend afoot to industrialize agriculture. People like Archer Daniels Midland and such are consolidating farms at an alarming rate. Remove all subsidies and you're throwing gas on that fire. I would imagine that within 20 years, the only 'family' farms left would be those where people are independently wealthy and CHOSE to farm, as a hobby.
-Subsidies steer farmers away from dangerous practices (still using DDT? no money for you :thumbsdown: ). Remove the incentives and the farmer will start engaging in these dangerous practices. Aaah, but all you good little Lefties will have the answer to that.... just pass laws forcing the farmer not to do them, right? Wrong. Farmer quits farming and sells out to ADM, who's rich enough to get Congress to pass an exemption.
-From time to time, certain agricultural products, being commodities, will show dramatic price fluctuations (think petrol). While the overall average price may not rise (and in fact, will probably drop), imagine what life will be like when for 6 months to a year, people are paying $15.00 for a gallon of milk, or $50.00 a pound for green beans?
Yes, something needs to be done to reform the West's agricultural policies, but shutting off the tap cold turkey and telling farmers "you're on your own from here" is going to have some pretty ugly consequences.
Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.
Argiculture in the United States has a host of protectionism and subsidies (SP) that are used.
FOr instance farmers are paid not to grow certain crops.
Farmers are paid not to plant any crops.
Grain is bought by the government at a set price, regardless of the market. (ie its often slighly higher)
Some argiculture products are not let in. Some is to protect the farmers, some is to protect the native grasses, and some to keep pests and diseases out of our crops.
All have an effect on keeping outside nations from establishing a market for their crops in the United States. But most nations do this in some degree or another. For instance many african nations in need of food, will not allow he genetic alterated grains into their nation. (THis might have changed recently, but I know it used to be true from doing some research)
Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.
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Originally Posted by BDC
No. They wouldn't be able to sell it all for enough to bother doing it. (Presumably.)
I don’t know… seems like it would take very little cost/effort (with all our machination) to plant and harvest a few more acres of unused fields where to do the same in a less agriculturally advanced area it might take dozens of people days to do. The farmer could sell it for almost nothing (break even price) and write it off as a tax deduction to charity. Heck, I bet with a little clever charity organization US farmers could feed all of Africa as a write-off.
Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.
That's exactly it, Yesdachi. Yes, maybe you have to pay the Iowa farmer 10 times what the Niger farmer needs to make. But if he produces 100 times the output, he's still going to dominate.
I'd argue agriculture is one of those areas where global trade breaksdown. Food is a strategic resource, so allowing competion in, competition that could potentially put an end to your own domestic production, can be disastrous in the long run. What happens if the world's grocery store starts using food sales as a bargaining chip in other negotiations? You can't just start producing food overnight....
This is actually getting to be a serious problem in the United States on some other strategic interests.... textiles and shoes all come from China. If we really piss China off, we'll all be barefoot and naked (bbbrrrrrrr!!!! It's 5-degrees Farrenheit outside right now.... (that's -13C for you Euros).
Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.
The whole food deal actually had a historical background, no?
For one, the 1890's were such terrible times for the US farmers that it wouldn't be far off to call that a crisis for the nation. That was also probably the only time in US history that a viable third party -- the Populists, the farmers -- were so strong; an indication of serious troubles in 2-party obsessed USA. The key cause apparently was the absolute overabundance of crops as American farmers produce so bloody many of them, causing the price to depress so badly that they ended up ruining the world food market and themselves.
There are other factors like railroad corporations' absolute monopolies and all that; but the main lesson from that time tend to point favorably towards the heavy regulation/central planning side of the mixed market when it comes to agriculture. Laissez-faire, in this particular case, happened to ruin everyone. Produces too much? The farmers die. Produces too little? Starvation.
If we're going solve the starvations in Africa what we need is a more global effort towards fixing the distribution system step-by-step; well nigh impossible in other words. There's more than enough food to go around, even with so many artificial walls built to prevent overproduction as it is.
DC: I rather doubt that about the China tidbit. I'd think that whenever we pissed the Dragon so bad that they started evicting their most important trade partner, it'd be relatively easy to move to, say, India or Indonesia for other cheap labor markets; complete with child labor exploitation and the lot, of course.
Re: People tired of having to pay handouts, now trying to do something about it.
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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
If we're going solve the starvations in Africa
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That hasn't even been brought up in this thread beofre you did. Most famine problems are due to war or natural disaster. Stop the fighting and you can stop the famine.
