:stop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
Don't start any flame-baiting here
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:stop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
Don't start any flame-baiting here
1. Adrian II, if i understand you correctly glamorized violence + psychopaths = tragedy. therefore we should curtail glamorized violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
if that is so, then one could also argue that romantic relationships + psychopaths = murder/suicide. therefore we should abolish romantic relationships.
2. or since the night stalker was influenced by ac/dc and the columbine murderers by korn, we should censor music?
3. japan has at least as much glamorized violence as america yet the violent crime stats are much much lower, so i don't think the issue is the glamorized violence but something else.
japan has
For giving me insight into the dark underbelly of the American psyche, I'll take Hobbes over Dr. Phil, if you don't mind.
I'm waiting for a better picture of what the heck happened; too few facts right now. I was stunned last night, however, to hear the chattering heads talking about how vulnerable universities are to "outsiders" and "strangers." What the hell? From the moment this broke in the news it looked like the work of a student. Especially the fact that the shootings began in a closed-access dorm in the a.m., I mean come on, this massacre fits squarely into the school shooting pattern we've seen before.
Killer identified. Haven't seen this posted yet, so I thought it worth adding.
I still don't get why the poor bastard snapped.
Yea, he was Asian. I think the media's been harping on it, because the crime rate among Asians is generally so low.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
:daisy:
Banning Guns won't help. In Japan in 2001, a man stab 8 kids WITH A KNIFE
if you going to be like the :daisy: Brits, ban knives then.
Need I point out that if some of those other students or the professors had been carrying firearms, that wacko would have hit the floor before he could anything.
If you have thousands of normal people in an area, and one or two wackos who would like to kill people, and the no one is armed, then the wackos will just illegally get guns (which is made a lot easier by gun control as it hugely boost black market sales of guns) and blast away 30+ of the normal people.
If they are all armed, either the wackos would never dare to try anything, or they would be cut down doing so. Wackos can always get guns to harm people with, and they always will be able to. The question is: do we want to respect normal peoples 2nd Amendment Constitutional Right and allow them to defend themselved? Tell you what, if I had a gun and I was in one of those classes, that guy wouldn't have taken another step after he opened the door!
lol, I think I'll just go away and not check this for a day now, see what rabid leftist taunts (or hey! maybe even some intellegent conversation) have popped up ;).
Actually yes. They always say when it is a white criminal. They USUALLY (this is an exception) do not say when it is another race, as they are afraid of being racist. Before you ask, no. I do not have any statistics on that, but simply speak from my own experience (which is probably more extensive then anyone's here).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
I believe that they are stressing that he is asian because there was a lot of concerns (due to bomb threats made earlier and a link to a turkish man) that he was a muslim terrorist. I think that they think that (:laugh4: ) letting people know he is asian will easy the public.
That is my theory at least.
Vuk
Hello hello, I was just quoting Phil McGraw there. I quoted him in full because someone else had quoted him haphazardly, suggesting that McGraw was blaming this shooting uniquely on video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by nokhor
Which he wasn't. :2thumbsup:
From my neck of the woods (Centreville, Fairfax County). His family probably lives ~10 miles from me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews
:bullseye:Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
I'm glad we got to the bottom of that. I think now that we can safely say:
Guns don't kill people.
Immigrants kill people.
I'm calling the NRA right now to order my new bumper sticker.
No, it's BS. Hobbyist rocket builders are having a harder time getting material for their small rockets because of increased regulations on explosives.Quote:
One can buy any chemicals to build any device of proper inclusion against those they deam inferior, unpatriotic, against their own high values of humanlife (even as they murder them), or for any futuristic imagination that justifies their purchase of WMDs. It is a fact.
Um....sources for those alleged 'facts'? Yea, thought not. Felons have not been able to buy guns for decades, and the GOP did not repeal any gun laws, particularly any that made it 'easier' for felons to get guns.Quote:
Crime has increased upto 30% in some areas (citys') and more prisons have been built than colleges or schools in general. Why? Because anyone, even a felon has access to a wmd under todays laws of "gun uncontrol".
Sir Moody - if you're trying to argue against my position please use facts, not some hypothetical scenario. I grow tired of gun control advocates making up these hypothetical situations that have no basis in reality. It's silly to think that somehow a student is going to be able to not see the attacking gunman, and will instead attack someone who drew their gun AFTER the shooting had started.
And I think this campus - like most in the US - already has armed police.
I saw a list in Der Speigel of Euro press articles commenting on this, and tought I'd respond to clear some things up for our European friends:
Quote:
British daily The Independent writes:
Despite the opposition of every police force in the land [not true at all], Congress in 2004 allowed to lapse a 10-year federal ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, a particular favorite of violent criminals [again, not true at all. The weapons banned by this bill accounted for perhaps 1% of all firearms crime. Also, this bill would not have effected this shooting in any way].
Quote:
The Times of London writes:
The National Rifle Association's (NRA) response is predictable too [a statement of condolence not mentioning gun politics at all, unlike the brady bunch?]. They will point out that events such as this are not carried out by a rifle-wielding member of a weekend militia. There is no doubt that access to rapid-action shotguns makes these events even more destructive but as we have seen with suicide bombers [um...I'll chalk this one up to bad info. But we've had these scary 'rapid action shotguns' for 100+ years, and few sprees use them]
Etc, and many other assorted stupid things blaming the NRA, guns, American society.Quote:
German daily Bild writes:
"Now we will probably begin discussing the overly lax gun laws in the United States. There, buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license [WTF? Do they do no research? This is completely false].
CR
To answer your question: No they do not do any research and if so they often do it very sloppily or just choose to ignore the results of the research (if the results are not dramatic enough).Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It is not unusual that BILD (often knowingly) reports false "facts" (now that is an oxymoron ~;)) (NB there is actually a whole website dedicated to pointing out all the junk that BILD reports - quite funny, too bad that it is only available in German).
BILD is a tabloid newspaper that usually goes for the shock effect - please do not consider it to be exemplary for the German press (although there are unfortunately too many people who use it as an actual source for news, so I am sorry to tell you that a number of Germans will actually form their opinions based on what this "newspaper" writes)
End of rant ~:)
Wellllll.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
The blame for incidents like this pretty much has to fall on some combination including one or more of those factors, n'est-ce pas?
Just to clarify: the ban also included magazines holding more than 10 bullets. We don't know the details here, but most 9mm pistols are designed for 15+. Probably wouldn't have helped much here though (and you could always buy pre-ban mags).Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
The laws in this country are fine, the enforcement is the problem.
sorry, i apologize. i just discovered the cuteness that is dana perino. i heretofore, forthwith and henceforth delcare today dana perino day and will respond to nothing else unless dana perino can somehow be tied to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
That's good to hear, Ser Clegane.
I tend to blame the shooter; he who is responsible for this, he who pulled the triggers.Quote:
The blame for incidents like this pretty much has to fall on some combination including one or more of those factors, n'est-ce pas?
Now, I think society could help by looking for desperate individuals and trying to help them.
But the greatest (in number of dead) attack upon a school in the US involved, firearm wise, only one rifle bullet. Also, consider that back in the 1950s kids could bring their guns to school for rifle team or hunting after school - there were many more guns in schools, and it wasn't until the gun free zone was passed (early 1990s I believe) that school shootings really took off.
Crazed Rabbit
if i had the time to go dig up some facts im sure icould - i dont i was stating my opinion on the matter crazed and im sorry gun nuts really scare me - the only people i want to have a tool purpsofully designed to kill with no other purpose is those whos job it is to protect me ie soldiers and the police and no amount of stat tweaking or carefully balenced "studies" is going to change my opinionQuote:
Sir Moody - if you're trying to argue against my position please use facts, not some hypothetical scenario. I grow tired of gun control advocates making up these hypothetical situations that have no basis in reality. It's silly to think that somehow a student is going to be able to not see the attacking gunman, and will instead attack someone who drew their gun AFTER the shooting had started.
Pro-gun people are just as guilty of this....Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
really? --> there are many plausible scenario's (that one isn't). smoke, noise, panic, especially if the student was disorientated or unused to using a gun, --> when talking of such scenario's there are many variables etc.Quote:
It's silly to think that somehow a student is going to be able to not see the attacking gunman, and will instead attack someone who drew their gun AFTER the shooting had started.
I agree that scenario's don;t really achieve much when talking of guns, but its equally uncertain either way, ie. a student having a gun may have been able to stop the shooting, but equally a student having a gun could have made it worse... is a bit pointless... :2thumbsup:
I'm not sure i trust the police with guns....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
Sir Moody, I think you'd realize all us 'gun nuts' in the USA are very nice people. We just enjoy shooting firearms. We're not crazy, we're not unbalanced.
I would hope you don't form an opinion on people you've never met based on sensationalist articles in your press.
And if firearms have only one purpose - to kill people - then almost all of them are defective. But such a tool is what you want if you're being attacked with deadly force, isn't it?
EDIT: Note that the previous 'record' for a school shooting, way back in 1966, was kept lower than it might have been by ordinary citizens shooting back at the killer with their rifles.
CR
Japan has different problems; violence among school kids there is autodestructive rather than directed against others, but it is a huge issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by nokhor
:yes: --> its very much a problem in japanQuote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
And now, for some more perspective, here is a view from the World Socialist Web Site written after the Columbine shooting.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Gah...some more news:
Also, this bit brought a tear to my eye:Quote:
BLACKSBURG, Va. - The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as a English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service.
Apparently, that teacher was a holocaust survivor.Quote:
Virginia Tech University Prof. Liviu Librescu, described as a family man who once did research for NASA, sacrificed his life to save his students in the shooting rampage yesterday.
...
Then the gunfire started coming closer. Librescu, 77, fearlessly braced himself against the door, holding it shut against the gunman in the hall, while students darted to the windows of the second-floor classroom to escape the slaughter, survivors said.
Mallalieu and most of his classmates hung out of the windows and dropped about 10 feet to bushes and grass below - but Librescu stayed behind to hold off the crazed gunman.
Oh dear God, what man hath wrought upon ourselves.
CR
Ah ...facts ....interesting , so this errrrrr..... "fact" about felons not being able to buy guns , that would be the fact that registered licenced firearms dealers have to do a backround thingy on their customers sort of fact . So rabbit as you are an enthusiastic firearms fan could you enlighten me as to where a criminal could purchase a firearm without having to comply with the backround check ?Quote:
Um....sources for those alleged 'facts'? Yea, thought not. Felons have not been able to buy guns for decades, and the GOP did not repeal any gun laws, particularly any that made it 'easier' for felons to get guns.
Come to think of it where did those two Columbine nuts buy their guns ?
In case future definitions of Heroism are required, that teacher is by any standards a hero. He gave his life so others might live by concious action.
~:smoking:
Felons could - not legally - buy from people other than licensed dealers without background checks. But that's the same as it's always been, nothing has changed as Mr. Chobee suggested.
CR
What Hitler couldn't do, this Korean guy could. The shooter's family had better make a damn good show of remorse, else I hope the press delves deep into their family life in revenge. If you're not going to say sorry and show that you're sorry, let the press do all they can to show how you've produced this monster of a son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
So the family produced this monster? How exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Yep so legally they cannot go along to an arms fair and buy a weapon from an unlicenced dealer who will not do a backround check , neither can they legally buy a weapon through a classified ad from an individual who is not a licensed dealer and doesn't do a backround check .Quote:
Felons could - not legally - buy from people other than licensed dealers without background checks. But that's the same as it's always been, nothing has changed as Mr. Chobee suggested.
Its a good thing criminals are very law abiding otherwise it would be ridiculously easy for them to buy guns .
First off, I thought that many Americans pretend to be Christian. Possibly the power of forgiveness?
Then As Adrian rightly mentions: possibly the family might not be aware of what their on was going to do, and you are jumping to conclusions faster than a Tabloid newspaper?
There's a good chance the family have nothing to say sorry for. Oh, and they've also lost a son who has probably done something that they find as horrific as everyone else.
What has Hitler got to do with anything?
Best keep the poisonous rants to yourself, eh?
~:smoking:
I think CR deserves a cookie, making this a gun debate is pretty pointless, we have had school shootings here in Europe even though guns are banned here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
The problem is that students are desperate because they have noone to help them ease their problems, rather there are a lot of people who enjoy putting more weight onto their poor souls, not realizing how destructive they really are.
IMO this has to do with a lack of morals. Older people were always taught to treat others with respect etc, but nowadays morals and respect are constantly vanishing among young kids, they don't even respect the weaker teachers anymore, they're sometimes like carnivores who will bully against everybody who is weaker. a school shooting is like the counterstrike of the weaker people. I just hope I will be able to raise my kids with some morals and a strong mind once I have some and if anyone bullies them I am going to open the gates of my personal hell and bring down whatever is inside upon the ones responsible(I don't really have an idea what that means, but I'm not going to tolerate it, also not if my own kids should start bullying others)
Let me repeat, I was thinking of doing something like this myself many years ago...
Better yet, we should shoot the guy's family in retribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
:thumbsdown:
Page 4 reminder announcement:
Keep it to the topic, not the poster.
Kindly carry on.
did i say all americans were gun nuts? did i even put a country to my opinion? no i did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I dont read newspapers and i take any online article with a severe pinch of salt those are MY opinions not some regurgitated rubish taken from someone else
erm crazed do you even read your own posts? "Guns arnt designed to kill things sir - because i said so" guns ARE designed to kill people thats IS their only function - they may not do it in every case but the design is sound
I think the solution is to take things like this more seriously. Even if you miraculously removed all guns from America, someone who goes crazy will still kill people. He may only be able to kill 8 or 9 instead of 32 but that's still a big deal. Explosives would probably be used (as in the worst school killings). Guns are not the issue. We have more school shootings in America because we have more guns, but you can't claim that we have more killers because we have no guns.Quote:
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."
"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."
Banning something like violent movies just because they affect psychopaths is irrational.
1764? 1927? The 1927 one is the worst killing. I don't think violent movies had anything to do with anything there.Quote:
* Enoch Brown school massacre - Franklin County, Pennsylvania, United States; July 26, 1764
* Bath School disaster - Bath, Michigan, United States; May 18, 1927
* Poe Elementary School Attack - Houston, Texas, United States; September 15, 1959
It was my impression that families (Asian ones anyway) are supposed to be responsible for their issue. If they don't hold themselves responsible for him, then let the press do it for them. If there's a screwy family that led to this ill-produced scion, let the press uncover it. If the problems are deeper rooted as in the massively dysfunctional Japanese society, let the press discuss that as well. But this is one of those cases where vengeance and constructive investigation go hand in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Sorry about my rather savage post, but the harming of Holocaust survivors is one of the few issues to make me really react - another related one being exploitation of the Holocaust that cheapens its memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
He's a South Korean immigrant, not Japanese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Congrats, you've highlighted the need for enforcement of our existing laws.Quote:
Yep so legally they cannot go along to an arms fair and buy a weapon from an unlicenced dealer who will not do a backround check , neither can they legally buy a weapon through a classified ad from an individual who is not a licensed dealer and doesn't do a backround check .
Its a good thing criminals are very law abiding otherwise it would be ridiculously easy for them to buy guns .
Fixed.Quote:
First off, I thought that many Americans pretend to be are Christian.
Indeed I do, though I wonder if you did:Quote:
erm crazed do you even read your own posts? "Guns arnt designed to kill things sir - because i said so" guns ARE designed to kill people thats IS their only function - they may not do it in every case but the design is sound
Are you familiar with trap shotguns, hunting shotguns, hunting rifles, target pistols, .22 rifles, and a plethora of others clearly not designed to kill people?Quote:
And if firearms have only one purpose - to kill people - then almost all of them are defective. But such a tool is what you want if you're being attacked with deadly force, isn't it?
Don't mind if I do:Quote:
I think CR deserves a cookie,
https://img116.imageshack.us/img116/...gcookieyr5.jpg
Crazed Rabbit
I was using Japanese society as an example of how the roots may go back further than any individual or family. If the investigations of those various incidents hadn't looked at the family, and at the wider society as a whole, would people be as aware of the depth of the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
This guy's family should be looking at themselves and asking how he came to be like this, and the deceased's families deserve to know the answers. The press in its various guises can serve as both carrot and stick with which to find answers to the question "Why?". If the family isn't inclined to go public with the results, IMHO an incident of this kind and severity gives the press the right to look for the answers themselves. And if this is an intrusion into their family's privacy - tough cheese.
I'd bet the press is all over the family already. I'm pretty sure I know where they live, and I'm also sure I'm going to have to fight through the tent city sprouting around the place on the way home. :furious3:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
On the gun issue, I saw that he passed a background check done in 2003 for his green card renewal. So he would not have had any problems purchasing a firearm legally.
Pannonian, get off it. Until there are any facts to back your reasoning about the shooter's family, please keep those opinions to yourself. And no, it is not always possible to notice when someone might lose it; the sister of a friend of mine committed suicide, and absolutely no-one saw it coming, and there sure as heck was nothing wrong with the family.
Pannonian, please remember that their parents of the shooter also lost their child - probably in a more complete way than other people, as they not only lost the life of their son but also the memory of their son as what is left to them is the fact that their child murdered 30+ people, the more or less open accusation that they as parents are at least to some degree also guilty of what happened and probably also their own feeling that they are at least partly responsible because they should have done something different to prevent this tragedy from happening.
Unless you have a very good reason to believe that these parents are somehow also responsible for what happened, they have IMHO the sme right of privacy as any other parents who lost their children in this shooting. Your "tough cheese" comment seems quite inappropriate here :no:
(NB: this is not a comment in my function as Backroom moderator, but my opinion as an Backroom-patron)
Pannonian seriously. 34 families lost loved ones. This guy wasn't some robot, he was a person with a history and a family. I'm pretty sure that family loved him. Now they are not only grieving because they lost a family member but because he went out in a horrific way. Then to have people calling for a witch trial?
Maybe the guy was just broken in the head through no fault of the parents except genetics. But if are going to hold them accountable for their genes I assume you've yelled at ever cancer patient's parents as well.
Are you suggesting that the question shouldn't be asked? I used the example of Japanese society to illustrate my point - if the question "Why?" hadn't been asked of all the various incidents, would people be as aware of the poisonous results of a society dedicated entirely to work? As I said, this is one case where vengeance and constructive investigation go hand in hand. Vengeance means the killer's family gives up their right to privacy until this is satisfactorily cleared up. The answers are then used as part of a wider investigation to minimise the chances of something like this happening again. Is there owt wrong with this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Re: Ser Clegane. Fair enough.
Re: Jimbob. I subscribe to the social conditioning school rather than genetics. If someone goes berserk, IMHO their life history, including upbringing, usually offers a better explanation than their genes.
Investigations can certainly be done without dragging the parents into the spotlight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Also, how come that the killer's family becomes a default subject of "vengeance"? I would have thought that we moved a bit beyond "Sippenhaft"
WTF ? It's their responsibility because they're Asian ? Different rules apply to Asian families ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
BS, this kid was obviously messed up, who knows why at this point ?
vengence on who? the killer killed the people, not his family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
furthermore the press are hardly interested in finding out the truth.. they just want a good story, im sure we'l be finding out that his mother was feeding him the wrong sort of food soon...
has it occured to you that they might have done nothing wrong?Quote:
Vengeance means the killer's family gives up their right to privacy until this is satisfactorily cleared up
--> a bit of sympathy and respect is needed for a family who will be grieving like all the others....
the question should be asked, but by the right people at the right time.
wow all of those guns you just listed can kill people even if they wernt designed too and most were still designed to kill (animals if not people but remmeber we are animals and what kills a deer will kill us just as easily)Quote:
Are you familiar with trap shotguns, hunting shotguns, hunting rifles, target pistols, .22 rifles, and a plethora of others clearly not designed to kill people?
the only 2 you have there which i cant argue with are the Trap shotgun (a slight varient on the nomal shotgun designed to blow little plates out of the air ) - and the Target pistol (designed for professional shooting aka sport) - these are exceptions to the norm that arose from the tried and tested and most definatly designed to kill guns we see far more oftenly - congratualtions :help:
Pannonian,
No one has responded to your position by arguing that an investigation shouldn't be made. Clearly the more information we can bring in the better off we'll be. The problem is the harsh vitriol you are exhibiting against individuals who have done nothing wrong that we know of. For one thing, I don't believe vengeance is of any value period. For another, why should vengeance against a criminal be taken against his parents? They did not shoot anyone. There is no evidence to suggest they influenced their son's shooting. Why should they be punished for his crimes?
I appreciate your intense reaction to the killing of a holocaust survivor and recognize that may be responsible for your seemingly irrational response. It seems highly doubtful that this had any bearing on the professor's killing. The killer didn't single him out, and may not have even been aware he was a holocaust survivor. This certainly has nothing to do with the parents. Be kind, and give the poor people the benefit of the doubt. A thorough investigation is important, but condemning people without any such investigation being made is not helpful.
Ajax
It could be. However when I pay attention to the motives behind this killings, they're usually moved by desperation, and although games do tend to portray violence, even without reason (GTA series) they also don't portray any character, as far as I know, as a good man because he kills, many times not even the motives are good motives. However I always thought that games should be strictly restricted by ages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
I can see however, how this occurs more often in the USA at least (sorry I'm not aware of global tragedies). This has happened only one time in my country and never in that scale. I suppose that there's not a single cause for this. First it must be the gun culture existent on the country. Second it has to be a psicological issue of the public mass of adolescent teenagers. I also believe it has something to do with the concept of social justice, in the sense that some people believe that the bad things that are happening to them can be attributed to everyone arround them without discrimination, without criterium, only because they happen to be in their way, perhaps they believe that everyone else is guilty of inaction. Third some believe that dignity is the more important value that humans have and some of them are willing to do anything to defend it, when humiliated they might respond like this. However this is not something exclusive of the USA, I suppose it's not the only country with a gun culture, not the only one with violent games. The adequate cause for this has to be found in another place, another element but I cannot see what's that element. I think an american has to know better...
Now, another reminder:
If you're a regular poster or reader here, you've seen what happens among the great minds here, when event details become slim: we start in on each other's words.
This usually starts happening about page 3 and post #75, or so.
I urge all to resist that natural urge to try to draw conclusions before enough details are available, AND the other natural reaction to frustration (at the lack of detail) to strike out at the handiest target - our fellow posters.
Sorry for the length of this announcement, and its distraction.
Please continue, civilly.
Letting the press ask the questions is civilised society's most constructive form of vengeance. It's unpleasant enough to act as such, and constructive enough to help work towards solving any wider social problems. The killer can't be jailed, the killer can't be rehabilitated, so the usual forms of state punishment no longer apply. In its absence, why not ask the question "Why?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
I've noted that people have ignored my conditional point, that the family had better make a good show of remorse, which I elaborated as asking themselves how he came to be like this, and letting the public know the answers. If they do this, there is no need for the press to press them further - the point of making them ask the difficult questions and helping society avoid incidents like this in the future has been served. The families of the 7/7 bombers did the same, helping the police investigate the histories of their sons, and the result is we now have a better knowledge of their roots and causes. And once the questions had been answered, they were allowed to retreat back into privacy. Is there anything wrong with this?
Well, it hasn't taken long for various loonbats to grab onto this event and fit it into their agenda. I see the Westboro Baptist Church plans to picket the funerals. "Jerks" doesn't quite do them justice. Also, Jack Thompson has declared that violent video games are to blame. Note that he came to this conclusion before anyone knew the identity of the shooter.
Not to mention how pro- and anti-gun folks (including some of our own) have leaped in to tell us how this tragedy reinforces their positions.
I guess it's natural to look for meaning in something this nasty. Personally, I'm still adopting a wait and see mode.
The Smoking Gun. com a copy of the shooter's bizarre 1-act play, for which he was referred to the uni counselling center.
Yesterday, we knew spit.
Today, we know spit + 3%.
Some people acted heroically, others simply tried to survive, one had neither goal in mind.
In Britain, there was the case of a black kid who was murdered by a gang of white youths. Police incompetence with the hint of corruption led to the destruction or loss of all useable evidence, and the case collapsed. The press took up the case, allowing the family of the deceased to bring a private prosecution against the accused, and forcing the police to clean up their incompetence and/or racism.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
Stephen Lawrence
This is just....terrible ! They let someone who writes like this be an English major ? It reads like it was written by a 6 year old ! A particulary slow one....Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Jesus Christ. Whoever didn't force him to see a psychiatrist regularly after that should be in big trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/...ng-huis-plays/Quote:
What happened yesterday:
When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was "I bet it was Seung Cho."
Cho was in my playwriting class last fall, and nobody seemed to think much of him at first. He would sit by himself whenever possible, and didn't like talking to anyone. I don't think I've ever actually heard his voice before. He was just so quiet and kept to himself. Looking back, he fit the exact stereotype of what one would typically think of as a "school shooter" – a loner, obsessed with violence, and serious personal problems. Some of us in class tried to talk to him to be nice and get him out of his shell, but he refused talking to anyone. It was like he didn't want to be friends with anybody. One friend of mine tried to offer him some Halloween candy that she still had, but he slowly shook his head, refusing it. He just came to class every day and submitted his work on time, as I understand it.
A major part of the playwriting class was peer reviews. We would write one-act plays and submit them to an online repository called Blackboard for everyone in the class to read and comment about in class the next day. Typically, the students give their opinions about the plays and suggest ways to make it better, the professor gives his insights, then asks the author to comment about the play in class.
When we read Cho's plays, it was like something out of a nightmare. The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of. Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun, I was that freaked out about him. When the students gave reviews of his play in class, we were very careful with our words in case he decided to snap. Even the professor didn't pressure him to give closing comments.
After hearing about the mass shootings, I sent one of my friends a Facebook message asking him if he knew anything about Seung Cho and if he could have been involved. He replied: "dude that's EXACTLY what I was thinking! No, I haven't heard anything, but seriously, that was the first thing I thought when I heard he was Asian."
While I "knew" Cho, I always wished there was something I could do for him, but I couldn't think of anything. As far as notifying authorities, there isn't (to my knowledge) any system set up that lets people say "Hey! This guy has some issues! Maybe you should look into this guy!" If there were, I definitely would have tried to get the kid some help. I think that could have had a good chance of averting yesterday's tragedy more than anything.
While I was hesitant at first to release these plays (because I didn't know if there are laws against it), I had to put myself in the shoes of the average person researching this situation. I'd want to know everything I could about the killer to figure out what could drive a person to do something like this and hopefully prevent it in the future. Also, I hope this might help people start caring about others more no matter how weird they might seem, because if this was some kind of cry for attention, then he should have gotten it a long time ago.
As far as the victims go, as I was heading to bed last night, I heard that my good friend Stack (Ryan Clark) was one of the first confirmed dead. I didn't want to believe that I'd never get to talk to him again, and all I could think about was how much I could tell him how much his friendship meant to me. During my junior year, Ryan, another friend and I used to get breakfast on Tuesdays and Thursdays at Shultz Dining Hall, one of the cafeterias on campus, and it was always the highlight of my day. He could talk forever it seemed and always made us laugh. He was a good friend, not just to me, but to a lot of people, and I'll miss him a lot.
Also contains play number 2
No, I never suggested such a thing. "Why?" is a perfectly valid question to ask, considering that right now we now next to nothing about the origins of the tragedy. The post I responded was filled with preconceptions about the shooter's family, who as Ser Clegane rightly pointed also lost their relative in both body and mind, in a situation where you clearly cannot know the facts yet. What I would suggest is to allow some more time before jumping to conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Edit: Sasaki, good post. The more I hear about this, the more chilling it becomes. A horrible, horrible situation.
A lot of pictures from the campus:
http://media.collegepublisher.com/me...-07/index.html
Sasaki, that is troubling.
CR
CR, were you saying on that page with the picture you are a MOUSE now? :laugh4:
About that article and identification:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I suspect it wasn't just the *possible* trauma of sexual abuse and stuff like that, there's probably more to it. Hmmm... that picture. But-- WHAT?!?!?! He looks like a young modified Asianized version of my brother! That's it! :smash:
But seriously...
There are many things suspicious about the case and I even suspect those other students have something to do with it. Not saying it's so, just suspecting. They are human after all
:|
CNN reports that he used a Walther .22 and a, um, Glock 19. I guess I better make sure mine hasn't gone missing. ~:doh:
What made him do it?
This was very interesting. To me it implies that we as a society should take more responsibility regarding those of us who are depressed. Forget guns or violent movies. They would use other weapons if they didn't have guns and the inspiration seems to come from other school shootings.Quote:
“After these episodes, everyone becomes a psychologist, looking back for warning signs,” says Jack Levin, a forensic psychologist at Northeastern University
Over 90 percent of killers are male, and the same holds for mass murderers—“I can’t think of a single case where a woman has done this,” says Schlesinger—partly because men tend to have more access to guns, which are usually the weapons of choice. The killers are usually somewhere between the ages of 25 and 35. They generally do not have previous histories of breaking the law in any serious way, says Levin. And they are not, on the whole, psychopaths, although they are often identified in the media as such. “A psychopath is someone with little conscience, little interpersonal bonding, someone who’s smooth and manipulative," says Schlesinger. "That personality has nothing, zero, to do with mass murder."
Indeed, the personality type most often associated with mass murder is in some ways the opposite of a psychopath. He is far from cool-headed; instead, he is aggrieved, hurt, and above all paranoid. Some mass murderers may be trying to exercise power over a world that they feel has left them powerless. "These people often feel some great injustice has been done to them. They're angry and they want to take it out on the world," says Schlesinger. "Then they develop the idea that committing murder will be the solution to whatever their problem is, and they fixate on it. Eventually they come to feel that there's no other solution."
"You don't just get a D on your report card and then open fire on 30 people," says Levin. "It takes a prolonged series of frustrations. These people are chronically depressed and miserable."
“Almost always [in school shootings], the perpetrator is a student who seeks revenge,” says Levin. As for Cho and whatever had upset him, Levin says, "It was murder by proxy. I think he was trying to kill the college."
And Levin says Cho, who was of Korean descent, may have been influenced by a mass shooting in at Dawson College in Montreal last September. That shooter was also a male, Asian student in his 20s. "The inspiration, if there is one, usually comes from someone who shares important characteristics with the killer," says Levin. "I'd venture a guess that that's what happened here."
Many of the warning signs—a near-daily loss of temper, vandalism, increased alcohol and drug use, overreacting to slight setbacks—are characteristic of depression in general. "These are warning signs that a person is in trouble, not that he's going to kill 30 people," says Levin. "There are hundreds of thousands of people who have led lives of frustration, who blame others for their problems, and who are socially isolated, but guess what? They never kill anyone."
Peter Sheras, a clinical psychologist at the University of Virginia, says one key to recognizing serious warning signs is learning which ones seem likely to play out in real life. "People need to distinguish between transient threats—things that pass in a moment of anger that get cleared up—versus serious threats where there's a likelihood that it's going to be carried out," he says. "You can't completely know, but if the person is depressed or despondent or suicidal, we should take that more seriously."
"By the time they've reached a point where they have a plan to kill somebody, their life is not of value to them anymore," Martin says. "Their goal is to hurt someone or become famous in some way, and they don't, at that point, want to stop themselves from accomplishing that."
"They may think, 'I may never amount to much, but I'm going to die amounting to something. This is my final mark on the world, my final statement,'" says Martin. "It's a fantasy that they will have the ultimate last word, even if they don't live to see it."
On the early rush to judgment: this guy, who sort of filled the profile of the shooter (23, asian, VT student, gun-enthusiast) got 80,000+ hate messages to his blog. He's innocent.
heh heh, I saw that. He posted a message soon after the shootings showing he was alive, but then deleted it. Apparently he found the comments amusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Society won't take care of that: they are too busy gaining more wealth, having more sex, consuming products, being individualistic, and generally satisfying their ego. What does society care? :|Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
They don't do jack, and when something untasty like this case occurs, it'll be forgotten soon enough.
Poor fella, getting 80000+ hate mail when you aren't even the killer.
Anyhow, I feel sad too. A Romanian teacher is now a hero and dead too, because he tried to stop the killer from killing his students by blocking the door. Unfortunately, he got shot. :no:
Living up to the first part of your custom title I see ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijo
I hope the administration doesn't get in any trouble over this.
Dude, that's clearly a rabbit. Rushing to judgment, are we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijo
CR
hmm anyone know anything about this:
https://img262.imageshack.us/img262/...ture209we0.png
You mean the uni admin? There is growing rumbling, at least among students, that VT Admin should have cancelled all classes after the first shooting, especially since that perp (the same guy) was still at-large.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Yeah. I disagree with that though. It's easy to say so in hindsight but there was a killing in dorm room that appeared to be domestic and the killer fled without shooting anyone else when he could have easily. In the vast, vast majority of murders the person doesn't decide to gun down an extra 30 people a couple hours later. There are dozens of killers on the loose in every city in the us, and if they canceled work for 30,000 people every time the world wouldn't function. It's doubtful this was a spur of the moment decision and he probably could have killed people anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Too many people are acting like VT president said to himself "well, 32 people are going to die but it would be too much trouble to cancel classes so screw them, haha!".
I think it's a bit of PC run amok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Clearly, something was not quite right with this kid- yet there was nothing anyone could do because of "legal hurdles". In the end, all she could do was suggest that he get counseling- he had no obligation to do so and obviously didn't.Quote:
Lucinda Roy, a co-director of the creative writing program at Virginia Tech, taught Cho in a poetry class in fall of 2005 and later worked with him one-on-one after she became concerned about his behavior and themes in his writings.
Roy spoke outside her home Tuesday afternoon, saying that there was nothing explicit in Cho's writings, but that threats were there under the surface.
Roy told ABC News that Cho seemed "extraordinarily lonely—the loneliest person I have ever met in my life." She said he wore sunglasses indoors, with a cap pulled low over his eyes. He whispered, took 20 seconds to answer questions, and took cellphone pictures of her in class. Roy said she was concerned for her safety when she met with him.
She said she notified authorities about Cho, but said she was told that there would be too many legal hurdles to intervene. She said she asked him to go to counseling, but he never did.
Depressed fellows also don't want any help in principle, so it's very hard to give it anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijo
On another note he could have done this so nobody forgets about his deeds, so the attention it brings is only more gas to the fire...
What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.
-Kurt Vonnegut
He may be dead but he's as right as ever.
THIS is the "macabre, grotesque, nightmarish scary script that scared people? Anyone who thinks this is anything more than bad writing is a bit frail. It actually kind of looks like a joke. Honestly, I would not have paid much attention to this guy. He so generic.Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
If they were so worried about some of his more extreme behavioral abnormalities they should have pointed him to a good shrink.
Some people like to be left alone. Some people like being lonely. No need to touch them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
:yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
--> to have a community you have to have people who are excluded from that community...
:2thumbsup:
Reading with the benefit of hindsight, I certainly find it all those things. It's clearly the work of a disturbed mind - the 13 year old boy's accusations ring alarm bells about the author's state of mind and are grotesque; the "plot" lacks any kind of credibility or logic giving it a nightmarish quality; and the undertone of violence is macabre.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
Context matters. If this were submitted by a light-hearted student, then I might think he was trying it on. But with someone who never mixes, spends 20 seconds before answering, wears shades in class etc, I'd take it as evidence that he has serious issues (as apparently his English professor did take it).Quote:
Anyone who thinks this is anything more than bad writing is a bit frail. It actually kind of looks like a joke.
They did, AFAIK. Doesn't seem he was the kind of chap who would have responded to such "pointing" though.Quote:
If they were so worried about some of his more extreme behavioral abnormalities they should have pointed him to a good shrink.
On a different note, I just read some of the victim's profiles on MSN news - was the saddest thing I've read for quite a while. You look at the photos of the young students, full of life and enthusiasm. It does not get any easier reading about the elderly Holocaust survivor lying down to block the class room door. :shame:
I'm sorry, but I feel that at this time it is a little hard to tell what is relevant and what isn't relevant to the shooter's condition or if he had one.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Also, the "hindsight is 20/20" business is being a bit overused.