Oh man, keeping the peace in the Diet is surely more work than I thought.
Being Emperor is like watching over a group of toddlers. A group of toddlers with Dread Knights for friends! :laugh4:
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Oh man, keeping the peace in the Diet is surely more work than I thought.
Being Emperor is like watching over a group of toddlers. A group of toddlers with Dread Knights for friends! :laugh4:
Well get ready Ituralde.
Jan's gone and pressed the red button by doing what he did.
I'm warming up the peeps for some serious non player character action!! :laugh4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
That sounds like a good Idea, a very good Idea, I was also thinking that there needs to be some major legislation as well, if there's time today I'll post smoething in-house thread.
i like being related to the emperor - itll make peter more of a statesman than a rabble-rouser i think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ituralde
Well, AG and I have been PM'ing so prepare for some columns shaking in the Diet!
:laugh4:
whats the point of an election? would we just ignore the ingame emperor and have another person be him? i think ituralde's deserved it.
The towers been buzzed!!
Brace for further fly by requests!! :balloon2:
The plane has been shot down by an AA missle! Let the games begin!Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
I just replied to your Diet post and I quoted yours so people will know to look at it since you added the text later. It will look a little out of place after the Kaiser just asked us to be quiet and remove weapons but oh well. It jives pretty well.
*edit*
Oh my god I am laughing my !@# off at TC's Diet post!
Hmm, judging by the OOC posts it seems that I'm lucky that I work outside, otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten anything done today.
Checking up on Diet posts now.
I thought that TC's post was genius as well, glad to see that everyone is still getting along OOC as it's getting intense IC.
I'm downloading Stig's save now and going to fight my battle shortly.
Yeah, that is key. This is all pointless if we get hurt OOC. Thats why I've been careful to work closely with AG in regards to the drama our characters are causing. Any story you see that regards the both of us will have been fully approved and endorsed by the both of us. I also happily encourage any of you to talk to me OOC if you wish to get stories going or whatever. Its important that when the tension hightens IC, that we keep showing the love OOC. ~:grouphug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
Gah, bloody dilemma. Franconians wanted to lynch other people, Ansehelm not agreeing with it.
It's all under control. :balloon2:
All men have been issued with handbags and the appropriate head gear to prevent any serious loss of blood.:laugh4:
Elberhard fought his battle against the Mongols:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kot1256-5.zip
Battle report imminent.
Great story, AG & PK. Will Jan be voting by absentee ballot from now on?
It's only half way through TC, and one of our grand master writers GH just expressed interest in helping out PK with part two.
I'm sure its gonna be a cracker.
Postal voting might become in fashion to prevent loss of limbs. :laugh4:
I'm not sure if anyone noticed but FD just had a loss to the Mongols.
Things look like they could get interesting.
I like it!!!
Gah at your abbreviations, I can't figure out who is FD
FD is FLYdude. Too bad we can't abbreviate your name much more than it is. Kind of hard to shorten Stig. Mabey we can call you S. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
FD = FLYdude.
That's one of our first real losses so far (excluding autocalc) and a bad one at that. Almost all of an Imperial Outremer army destroyed for half of one Mongol stack. In general, I'm very pleased with how this game is going. The OOC changes we made about halfway through to increase difficulty really seem to have started paying off. We've already had 4 deaths in battle (5 if you count Ulrich's pseudo-suicide). Add the total lack of unity in the Diet into the mix, and we're actually far from secure. A big change from where we were by this time in WOTS.
Ah thanks m8
And no I choose this name, because it's already an abbreviation
Good night guys.
Have a great time and I'm also loving this right now.
The uncertainty is creating some real story telling.
I really like the way everyone is dealing with the avatar losses and that is creating a lot more realism. With FD's loss we are certainly wide open out east.
Maybe Arnold's got to go Horse Hunting. Grom seems to have a talent for it :laugh4:
sweet - nice story AG and PK.
hey stig - we should do a story about our reactions to siegfried becoming kaiser
Pre-death shots of Jobst and Markus are now in the Mausoleum.Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneCold
I'm also very interested to see what happened with Elberhard. I can't tell if he fought and then withdrew or won and then moved afterwards, but regardless his army has been totally wrecked. There are 3 full Mongol armies still around and now only Conrad Salier's army is capable of taking them on, though there seems to be enough men on hand in some of the castles/cities to form a second army.
Oh, you guys complain too much. I think I'm gonna run through the end of the term, and then retire to watch the fireworks!
im glad we're losing out east and have turmoil back home.. it makes it interesting!
We're moving right along. I'll provide a Chancellor's report immediately as a few things of note have happened in 1258.
Battle Queue for 1258.
Initial save: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1258.zip
Kaiser Seigfried
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Ansehelm von Kastilien
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Well im hoping to add some more excitement to the Diet. I am going to side with Hans and call for a council to determine who is Kaiser. If things dont occur as I would hope for, then who knows I always held an interest in holding Caen :wink:
haha the way i see it, each house has its own distinctive qualities.
Bavaria - Soap Opera
Franconia - Rabble-Rousers
Swabia - Snobby Royalty
Austria - Dreaded Fearmongerers
Right, I'm gonna wait for a few more avatars to come through.
Just quickly, but I need to use Dieter for a story, to seal off the end part of my story, then he's all yours to control Ituralde.
Just a word of congratulations to FLYdude on getting this PBM moving again - this level of pace, organisation and communication we are seeing from the Chancellor provides what we need to spur the recent role-playing and excitement. :2thumbsup:
I certainly second that.
On another note, the history, except for a few yet to be written battle reports, is updated. If I'm missing anything, let me know.
I haven't taken a look at the save yet, but I won't be able to fight the battle until tomorrow or some time tonight. I believe it would be a sally? If so, should the other battle be finished, before I get a chance to fight, you can have me besieged for one more turn.
Cheers!
Ituralde
Picking up the save now
Fought and won:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1258-2.rar
Ituralde and Ignoramus: if the Kaiser wishes it, I will use my moderator powers to keep order in the Diet. It would kill the role-playing if Hummel is able to repeatedly walk into the Diet after being banned by the Kaiser. (And no number of dread knights on your avatar's retinue are a match for a moderator who can delete posts. :inquisitive: )
First part of my battle report is up. People might consider writing multi-part reports if there are lots of screenshots. It helps turn the page more quickly. Otherwise we will get massive pages full of screenies that take forever to load (as happened with WotS).
Is there no effective way to rebel? If there isn't then this PBM's going to get bad RP with happy cooperative electors when the succession's gone haywire.
Ansehelm the Merciless' (son of Gunther the Honourable ~D ) new Veteran Warrior will halt them, while his Master Archer and Guard Dog attack them.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
:charge:
How does splitting the screenshots between multiple posts make loading faster?
You could rebel Igno but it would have to be IC and outside of the game mechanics. You could do a series of Stories and co-op's with other players on the rebellion and make it clock and dagger stuff behind closed doors.
You can't pursue the mass army version as there is no way to replicate that in the game.
For example you can't really kill characters, so PK and I have had to do our thing in the stories thread to get it done. I migfht add that it has generated a pertty impressive response amongst most of the people I've PM'd.
I'm starting to worry I've gone over the top.
You might be able to cheat people into joining the rebel faction, but nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
And since it's not possible I advise against a civil war, the game mechanics don't allow it.
When this PM is over and a new one is started we could cheat and mod so that there is a Saxon faction in America, this faction will also be played by us (using HotSeat). Once a civil war is started we can cheat them to take over settlements.
But that can't be done now anymore.
Less on 1 page?Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
If you want to foment an effective rebellion, you have to network and get an effective coalition of Electors going so you can pass a few CAs.
You just can't wish it into being.
We rebelled pretty effectively when we impeached Ulrich.
As for the role-playing, I think most people are satisfied with it.
@econ21:
I was not going to react to Ignoramus post, because I felt it pointless. There wasn't any good way in which I could play it out. If he refuses to accept my actions, there's little I can do.
But it's nice to know I have that option, somehow the power to regulate the Diet should come with control of the guards or something like that! :2thumbsup:
@Ignoramus:
I believe there are ways to rebel inside the rules set in this PBM, although they have dire consequences. But that's what happens when you rebel. Considering the RP aspect, I believe there is more than enough free room to roleplay dissent and open animosity within the rules we have agreed in the Charter.
We all have to accept certain facts IC that the game throws at us OOC and so far I have only seen them enrich the roleplay rather than make it worse. I appreciate anyone who opposes Siegfried, but it has to be within the boundaries set by the rules of this PBM. Otherwise it would just be pointless for every party involved.
I for example feel that the Emperors powers have been quite crippled, not that he was overly powerful to begin with, but I'll have to live with it and adjust my roleplay accordingly.
I've decided that Wolfgang's going to roam lands away from the Reich. It will represent that he's a hunted man inside the Reich and doesn't feel safe there.
I will try and pass a CA that will enable "rebels" like me to do a few extra things.
Ignoramus:
No, there's nothing in the rules that will help you rebel, so you'll have to work at it through the rules. It's not that hard and it is pretty RP accurate IMO. In reality, few people are going to rebel unless they think they have a chance of pulling it off and coming out alive. Wolfgang's one-man-stand is nothing more than suicide as it stands, so it's a bit unrealistic. If you want to oppose Siegfried as Kaiser, the best thing to do is to work through back channels to create a rebellion against him. If you can get a 2/3 majority, you can do anything you want in the game. Even with a 50% vote you can create a few short-term edicts that can cause massive problems. If you can't get that much, all you need to do is find some people with power to go along with your revolt and cause problems. Dukes can deny the use of their armies to the Chancellor and otherwise make life difficult for them. Army commanders can refuse to fight battles. Get creative and you'll find there are lots of ways to foment unrest without starting a multiplayer battle.
The first thing you need to do is get some allies, which means not alienating every single last person in the Diet. Even if Wolfgang hates Siegfried, surely he can bite the bullet and live with him for a short while if that makes overthrowing him more of a possibility. Take a look at what FH is doing. He is working the system perfectly.
Doesn't help those of us who are set to view 40 posts per page. Of course, those of us who do that are responsible for our own slow loading times. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Since the game doesn't have a rebel/civil war mechanic that we can activate on demand, you'll have to RP it. Its the same with character duels. AG and I have been trying to work this out for a couple of days. Jan, an Elector, has been able to take on Arnold, a Duke and at least come out as a draw. This is only because of role playing. Here's a few of Kevin's role playing hints to getting what you want in game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
1.) RP your traits consistently. It might seem like it makes your character simplistic but consistently RP'ing your traits gives your character credibility. Others who have the same traits will start to trust you. Even those who have different traits will grudgingly admit that your a "true believer". Predictability helps human interaction. If your going to change your traits, either make it subtle or really obvious in a story post. Flipping back and forth will just convince players that your character is psychotic. :laugh4:
2.) Others have an interest in keeping you alive. As part of a feudal/electoral system, you play a part in the big machine. And those in power have an interest in keeping you alive so you can fullfill their agenda. Jan has a father who is chancellor, a Duke, and a King of Outremer who all have an interest in seeing Jan survive and help them pass their edicts.
3.) The enemy of my enemy. Your enemies have enemies. Work with them. I am surprised at the number of IC pm's Jan has gotten from those who don't like Duke Arnold. It is really amusing. :beam:
4.) Put your character in jeapordy. Players respect players who will put their character in danger in order to support their beliefs. No one likes someone who just shouts things from behind a castle.
5.) Allow the other player a way to save face with his character. A character that is totally beaten will become useless to the player because no one will take that character seriously. If you offer them a way to "save face", then you'd be surprised at what they would agree to. This is exactly what AG and I have been working on. We both want our characters to stick to their belief systems and not give ground. But, as players we do not want to ruin the other's character. So we've had to create this massive scenario where both characters can face great odds, survive, and still claim that they have the courage of their convictions.
Hope this helps and people can feel free to add.
Good points. . .So when are we getting the finale for the Dread and Chivalry story line? It's a bit of a cliffhanger.
Well, I finished the story last night. AG just signed off on it this morning. We both agreed that were going to let GH wake up and work his magic on it. He'll take my block of marble and make a Michelangalo out of it. My first post in the story thread is only readable because he worked on it. The story is out of my head but he can make it flow to a point where you'll actually enjoy reading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OverKnight
Hey, there's nothing wrong with Dread, remember that Jan has a Dread Steward now ~D ... and later on Dread Duke.
And a question:
Do I have to propose a new Edict to have the Crusade continue. Actually it can start next turn, but that is for the next chancellor to make the move. Can we just leave it like this, or does it have to be proposed again (having the propose it again seems wierd to me, as it hasn't taken place yet and it was an edict).
So what are the rules on this? (even the army is ready afaik)
Actually I think it's better to focus at Vilnius and continue from there to Bulgar.
I tell you what...Arnold has been taken to the cleaners on this from all corners.
I'm a bit shocked actually but clearly the writing has elicited some good reactions.
Well, if you RP an evil !@#hole, you can't be surprised if others wait for you to fall. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
The edict that was passed did not have any wording at all that allows it to survive for multiple Diet sessions, so it will expire. In order to make sure that the Crusade goes through, you need to pass legislation that will make the Crusade valid again. Without legislation, even a Chancellor who wants to do the Crusade will not be able to due to CA 10.2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Lay low, lick your wounds, plot revenge. Remember, evil will always triumph because good is dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
I'm not evil, I'm just misunderstood :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
And unfortunately TC is correct Stig.
You're going to have to do some more lobbying to get that little venture up and running again.
I'm sure you can persuade enough people to support the edict :laugh4:
Righto I'll just come with another Edict. It would be stupid to abondon this idea now, seeing all is ready. We could use the army to attack Krakow as people said, but Vilnius is far more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I think it's for the best anyway, as the argument over the Moscow expedition is fun. I have a feeling you'll be able to get it passed, but it's worth exploring again. Make sure you tack on a line about the Edict not expiring until its terms are fulfilled, that way you don't have to do this again if it's not done by 1280.
Yeah, and so was Hitler... :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
And you know I mean Arnold and not you. What did you expect to happen? You RP a terrifying mean genocidal killer. At the beginning of this, I was afraid of the political damage my character was going to suffer. But, I totally underestimated just how many characters hate your character. You kind of made your own bed on that one. :laugh4:
I never PM'd a single character. I never lobbied in my Ducal house or in the Diet. People came to Jan out of their own desire to see the Duke fall. I had nothing to do with that. In fact, if I knew you were on such shaky political ground, I would have gone easier. I can try to help out a little IC but if I do it too much it will look pretty wierd. "Gee, isn't the genocidal maniac who had my best friend killed really a swell guy!" :laugh4:
Aye, IC a crusade will be fun even if it's not the best idea.
And I've been thinking, we could do an OOC edict allowing Wolfgang to rebel.
He takes an army and goes adventuring, he might take some city and lock himself away there. The Chancellor will have nothing to say about that settlement, as it will be his kingdom ... he ofcourse has nothing to say in any part of the Reich.
No, no. Lets just leave it as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
I'm swaying between being ostracised to the point where I get worse or making some attempt at rebalancing.
I mean all I did was put a few heads on some poles...it's not as if I eat babies :beam:
Not all Austrians. There is a ying and yang thing going on. For each of Arnold's dread points Karl get chilvary.:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by gibsonsg91921
Your all a bunch of big girls blouses LOL!!
That would make for some interesting RP'ing. I recommend you do that in the middle of a Diet meeting.Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
"My Kaiser, "munch munch" if I may adress the Diet "munch munch munch"...
:laugh4:
Genocidal? Arnold is far from the first guy to butcher his prisoners. Despite the misinformation being spread IC, it's actually been pretty common, even with some of the Holy Rollers. Mandorf, the original religious nut, was not exactly known for his leniency against heretics. The anti-Arnold reaction to me seems a bit over-the-top and certainly not in keeping with what he has really done, but all's fair in RP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Personally, I would rebel with Ignoramus just for a French territory. Ive been trying to get another French castle for a while now I could use this for my benefit.
Swabia might be able to not accept Siegfried's throne cause IC, Hans Wolfgang and me, Friederich are all against his reign and then kinda do what Ulrich did and just go and take a province or two in France without any edicts supporting it
Are you claiming that Arnold is not genocidal? I never claimed he was the only character that killed prisoners but he certainly has made himself stand out the most. And I had my own IC reasons for going after him and making a big deal out of it. It fit with my traits and it helped fuel my agenda so I latched onto it IC. I'm not against it OOC. I've told him a couple times that he is playing a really cool character. Its just that my character hates his. In fact, I'm learning that "anti-murder" sentiment is running pretty high IC. Now, if that sentiment will be turned into votes is another question entirely but I need to wait until the next Diet session to test that out. Political expediency might drain moral support from an anti-execution bill I am considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Nope, definitely not genocidal. Lopping off the heads of your enemies is far from systematic eradication of an entire people. At some periods in history, it was just common sense.:dizzy2:
Of course, the Diet is exactly the place for exaggerating your opponents flaws and exploiting their weaknesses. Just because it isn't accurate doesn't mean it's not a good strategy. As you can see, your actions are reaping rewards, so who cares if they're true or not?!
Evil is a matter of perspective. :laugh4:
Ansehelm killed about 1500 prisoners the last couple of years. He's getting close to Arnold ~DQuote:
Are you claiming that Arnold is not genocidal? I never claimed he was the only character that killed prisoners but he certainly has made himself stand out the most.
Watch out, I'm overtaking!!!
While Jan has been exaggerating the acts IC, OOC I academically believe that Arnold is committing genocide. He has stated his desires to eliminate the Hungarian people and has already killed 4000. All because it was considered "common sense", doesn't mean that it is not genocide. And I think it would be good if someone brought up that some killings are highlighted while others are ignored. It is no coincidence that Jan has not brought up what Ansehelm or Lothar have done... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I am conceptualizing a "battle for the soul of the Reich" where legislation banning executions, sacking, and exterminations will be the centerpiece. Such legislation will hopefully spur IC debates on morals, values, the meaning of civilization, and the meaning of being Christian. Either way it should be fun! :beam:
My god the political climate moves fast here, I think that I'll go into the Diet and Stir the pot a bit Muhahahah!
I actually like Arnold, He's done what's right for his House considering hungries almost non-stop assualts he can't really justify letting all those soldiers go when they will be back on his door step next turn.
Aye, same reason why Ansehelm supports Arnold. He's doing the same with Poles and Russians.
That goes directly against what I have planned for the Sicilians...Quote:
Originally Posted by Privateerkev
Oh, there's great "realpolitik" reasons for doing what Arnold has done. But, those of us playing characters with high chivalry and high piety can stand with our mouths open and gasp in horror. The man did bring heads into the Diet as well as place 4000 heads on pikes lining a road. I was surprised that more people weren't vocal until I learned that there are things going on "behind-the-scenes".Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
*edit*
Stuperman's and Stig's posts lend weight to my belief that such legislation would ultimately fail right now. But, it would be fun to at least have the debate. Why should people be able to murder with no one saying anything? If you want to have your character murder, thats fine with me but you have to accept that other characters may/will be horrified at your actions.
Ignoramus: on rebellion, there are various ways we could accommodate it within the PBM.
The easiest is to collude OOC with the player controlling the Chancellor so that he moves the rebellious forces. We've done this before in this PBM - once when I think OK allowed Hummel senior to move against orders, but most notably under Chancellor Maximillan's watch when Max was a Papist but Tincow set-up attacks on the Papacy. For this, you essentially have to persuade the Chancellor player that what you propose is plausible and makes sense in character. The problem with Hummel the junior at the moment is that, as has been said, his rebellion does not seem to have wider support.
Another way is what we did in WotS when we informally agreed to start a Civil War and basically made up game mechanics as we went along.
Finally, as OK has said, you could propose OOC Charter amendments to formalise game mechanics for a rebellion.
All these are possibilities, but I am not sure they are for now. I think you would need something like a House or its equivalent to rebel for it to cause major issues. Anything lesser would probably just be easily suppressed or otherwise resolved.
I am open to ideas for how to beef up the role of the Emperor. The de facto creation of a Kaiser's Army might help (I want a Prinz's one :jumping:). Some of his existing powers are subtle, but potentially powerful - ability to popose unlimited edicts/CAs per session, allocating provinces to Houses, calling an Emergency Diet, adjudicating rules disputes etc. With influence = authority, he can also get some legislative clout. A lot of it comes from role-playing though, which is why I offered to evict rebels from the Diet to maintain that atmosphere of deference and respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ituralde
Don't underestimate the power of being banned from the Diet either. Lothar only let himself get expelled because he knew Henry was old and would die soon, thus allowing him to return without apologizing. However, he lived a bit longer than I was expecting and I have to say that not being able to speak got intensely aggravating. The risk of another Diet expulsion with no chance of another Kaiser death to let him back in was a major reason that Lothar did not push the issue of Siegfried's coronation any more than he did.
I think the Kaiser's power is only limited if you choose not to exploit it. You have the ability to expel anyone from the Diet that you wish. If you don't like someone, make up a reason and kick him out. It doesn't have to be valid and it will have a huge effect. You can also ignore Jobst's will and marry Lyse off to whomever you want, another major power. You can refuse to give any territories to houses that oppose you, another massive power. Finally, you have the power to adjudicate "rules disputes." If you interpret this liberally and find some weak legislation, you can pretty much re-write the law to say whatever you want. If anyone complains about your ability to do so, just say that whether you have the ability to rule on the law is itself a "rules dispute" which thus falls under your authority.
Of course, all of these actions will likely make people dislike you, but how can you expect to wield supreme power without making enemies? Either play a passive Emperor and have everyone like you, or start flexing your muscles and get prepared for some opposition. The choice is yours to make.
Although don't flex those Imperial muscles too much.
But being emperor you can easely get rid of opposition. And in this game you can't really.
Would Arnold be emperor he would simply have Wolfgang trailed and killed ~D , the game does not allow this (I think).
But as TinCow said, you do have powers, ignoring people for example. Sure the chancellor makes the moves, but you are emperor, he has to keep you a friend, and will have to follow your orders.
Next to that if people oppose you, ban them from the Diet. Would I make an Edict saying that Siegfried will not be the real Kaiser, ban me. TinCow seconds it? Ban him. Easy.
Tho we should allow those people to rebel in a way of not having to follow orders, they can make their own moves (aslong as they send them in in time)
Part II of my battle report is now up.
I still have to do 2, big gah :furious3:
This goes too fast for me ~D