For a criminal the the police should be the enemy, easy as that. No moral authority required.
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For a criminal the the police should be the enemy, easy as that. No moral authority required.
Yet problems arise when ordinary people see the police as the enemy , easy as that .:idea2:Quote:
For a criminal the the police should be the enemy, easy as that.
Agreed, so they better start treating everybody in the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Frag, the purpose of most law enforcement here is not to punish people but to make them good members of society again. And despite some scary stories where it failed, it seems to work in many cases as well. Without morals and a perspective for a better life, this is hardly achievable. If you want a police state where everybody is punished harshly for not following the law, you can try certain disctatorships around the world and enjoy their "low" crimerates. :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The degree of punishment is not the issue here. You don't stop for a red light because it is the right thing to do, moral authority has nothing to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Do Europeans(Germans to be precise) want the state reinforcing the belief that muslim authority is higher than that of the state?... that the law should be followed only if approved by imams?
To increase stability now, are they sacrificing authority later?
And for every imam supporting this, how many are saying sharia is the only law?
This is not Northern Ireland or a labor strike and it is certainly relevant to take into consideration the unique position of the muslim community in Europe and who they see as authority figures.
I still say heads need to be bashed to show these people from the outset that, in Europe, muslims, Christians and atheists alike do not get special treatment under the law and there are consequences to breaking said law despite what the local imam says. You cannot beat your wife at your whim, you cannot kill your daughter for being raped, and violence toward police will get at least the same in return.
Then again, I might be predisposed to wanting certain heads bashed... :smash:
That's the part I didn't want to touch here because I wanted to keep it to the diffusion of authority as something damaging enough by itselve, but yeah. This gives those imams a lot of power, kindly granted by the authority. One very very dangerous leap of faith of people looking no further then today.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
keep....agreeing.....with....PanzerJager...there must be something wrong with me...Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
*runs out the house looking for a doctor*
but yeah...no special treatment...you respect the legal authority in a country..fine...you don´t....well that´s what the nightsticks are for.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
So what. In Western Australia the liaison officers get paid about 80% of what a Police Constable does. While a senior liaison officer gets paid on par with a PC.
So here we pay for the community liaisons. The imans seem to be providing a free service.
Engage them as believers, not as citizens. There's the rub, my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Engaging disaffected youth from a religious point of view is fine, but not through, or parallel to, the police. Public officials should address citizens as such, not as believers. Any confusion in this area should be avoided. It leads to skewed perceptions and abuse.
The whole notion of automatically addressing people from Turkish or Maghreb descent as muslims is an aberration. The underlying message is that Islam is somehow (part of) their unalienable identity, which is dangerous nonsense.Religious workers? You mean preachers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
There is an essential difference between a secular housing charity and a mosque. One is a public service and as such ideologically neutral, the other is an immediate exponent of a particular ideology.
So yes, I take exception to the imams in this role, just as I would take exception if police brought along a Communist to address these youth as proletarians and read them the Marxist Levites.
On the other hand I don't object at all to imams and other authority figures in muslim communities becoming more active in guiding (and containing) unruly youth of muslim descent in European countries. This seems to be a trend and I applaud it, as long as it doesn't lead to the skewed perceptions I mentioned above.
One skewed perception, for instance, has it that muslim communities are primarily responsible for the (mis)behaviour of their youth, as if all problems relating to their young can somehow be traced to them and to their culture of origin. In reality most of these problems arise, I think, as the result of a clash between that culture and the modern western environment in which the youth grow up. In short: they are our juvenile delinquents, not theirs, and muslim parents and leaders shouldn't be made to feel uniquely responsible for them.Another skewed perception of the kind I mean. So yeah, I have to check my blood pressure just like Ronin, for I think the Panzerman is right on the mark on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
First Ronin, now Adrian :inquisitive: ....If Kafirchobee and Red Harvest start backing Panzer', then I'll have to start craning my ears for the sound of Gabriel blowing the trumpet.....:end:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II