The Seleucid Empire

Your strategies for storage of mercs are similar to mine. I hired Cretans by Salona and Appolonia, and I think Byzantium and Thessalonica as well, not quite sure about Thessalonica. I will look next time I am in my campaign. I want to say I have done it by Tarentum, but I am probably thinking Merc Hoplites, just something in the back of my mind that is probably confused with something else. That is not very hard. My mind is like a steel trap...once it snaps shut on something, I can't get it back open.

Anyway, I have taken the bite out of Greece (I think):croc:. Pontus is also about done. I lost a general because I was shelling enemy infantry while defending a town, and when I ran my general to take out the routing enemies, I forgot to tell the Onager to stop firing, and of course one of his projectiles hit my general:stars:, of all the men in the unit it could have hit. Onagers seem to home in on generals, and I am not the first one to say that on this forum.

The export_descr_mercenaries file has them in Greece (Epirus Aetolia Attica Peloponnesus), and Aegean (Rhodos Crete Lycia Phrygia Ionia). IIRC, in Greece you can find them in any of the first three provinces (can't recall ever recruiting them near Corinth), and in the Aegean pool, never on Rhodes or in Lycia along the coast:shrug:

I guess my ones in Salona (Illyricum) came from the region by Appolonia, I think that is Aetolia.

I am thinking a change in my phalanx tactics, to be more aggressive, advancing one side of my line into the enemy, and swinging my other flank around into the enemy's flank, and circling my cav to hit them in the back. For some reason, I don't like using a full double-stack army, but I may start that, at least with one of my armies, just to see how it works, That may end up being enemy specific. Right now I am using 6 PP, one SSP, two Archers, two Cataphracts, one Greek Cav, one Onager, a general (if I have a decent one around), and either a War Elephant (in the east/Africa) or a Companion Cav (Greece/Italy).

I have one PP on each flank, and the other pike units lined up facing the enemy. Archers behind, Onager in front or behind, depends on if the enemy has siege weapons or not. Cats defending the flanks, Greek Cav and general in the middle behind the phalanx. I will have to experiment with the new tactic and report afterwords. I have not yet really used the Companions or War Ellies in my battles yet, so they would either be on the flank or behind.

[QUOTE=Vincent Butler;2053735496]I always have light cav anyway, but Militia Cav are worthless, in my opinion. They get very few kills, especially for as many javelins as they throw. Greek Cav get a better charge bonus and are better in hand-to-hand fighting. I have some skirmisher cav in my army because it was formed before I got Greek Cav, and they have multiple silver chevrons, so I keep them, but I am not impressed. Of course, I am probably using them wrong, sitting behind a phalanx, but then again, they were only there to be my light cav, and they got good enough to keep around. They probably do better going out and harassing infantry, but then I have to worry about enemy archers and cavalry, and if the battle gets hairy and I am focusing on keeping the missile cav alive, I lose track of my main line, which is what I am more concerned about.
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I know I've had this discussion with you before, but Militia Cav offers more flexibility than Greek Cav. GC will fare better in melee, but the point is to not let it get to melee with a skirmisher cav. Yes, the enemy loves to focus on running down skirmisher cav with it's own cav, but that is also a good way to isolate their cav and destroy it with Cats. ~:cool: Militia cav definitely require more supervision, but what use is light cav if they just sit behind your battle line? Unless the only reason you bring light cav along is to run down routing units, which militia cav does just fine. Sun Tzu said "Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions." This is why I like to maintain as much flexibility in my army as possible, and having the ability to harass the enemy at a distance and then using that same unit to run down routing troops is an advantage that I like to have along.

This mainly applies with my phalanx armies. I do not typically use jav cav in armies where my battle line is more flexible and it is not as critical to keep the enemy off my flanks.

I do agree the most annoying of factions lacking strong archers is Carthage. With just slingers and skirmishers, a General has to get creative with ways to combat enemy missile fire. Usually that means having a large contingent of cav. The Balearic slingers do provide a decent fill-in, especially against the lightly armoured troops of Numidia, Egypt and Spain. I really enjoy playing with Carthage, but it does test your tactical abilities going up against stronger factions. With no superb inf until you get to Sacred Band, the battles can often turn into a whirling melee. The Libyan Spearmen is a solid unit, but not one with which you can win a battle. Poeni inf is a good unit, but seem to fight in a looser formation than most phalanx-forming units, thereby limiting their ability to punch through stronger inf. Spanish mercs are an essential part to a Carthaginian army. They provide a decent sword unit that can flank enemy inf to good success. Cav and Elephants are what wins the day for Carthage.

With the Seleucids, at least the weakness of archers can be filled with the access to Cretan archers. And their pikes also give them an advantage over most inf they will face early in the campaign. They also have Cats, which kinda helps. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mitch the Mace

Yes, the enemy loves to focus on running down skirmisher cav with it's own cav, but that is also a good way to isolate their cav and destroy it with Cats. ~:cool: Militia cav definitely require more supervision, but what use is light cav if they just sit behind your battle line? Unless the only reason you bring light cav along is to run down routing units, which militia cav does just fine. Sun Tzu said "Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions." This is why I like to maintain as much flexibility in my army as possible, and having the ability to harass the enemy at a distance and then using that same unit to run down routing troops is an advantage that I like to have along.

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That would require using Cats to try to run somebody down after you have isolated them, not exactly their specialty. They are better used smashing the enemy line. Frankly, at that point, MC are expendable, especially as they require a first-level stables to retrain. Now horse archers I view differently, they have more range and more ammo. I use my light cav in whatever aspect the battle demands. That might be chasing away missile units, might be dealing with enemy light cav, might be hitting enemy siege weapons, or dealing with low-quality enemy infantry such as Iberian Infantry or even possibly Desert Axemen, once my GC get some upgrades. Or maybe just running down routers. So it seems it is a difference of cav tactics:shrug:, I like my cav to be able to go to melee combat if needed.

So a comparison, MC have stats of 6 missile, 6 melee, 2 defense, charge of 3 (if the card says 1, it is using the value from the javelin, but the engine uses the charge value with sword). GC has 6 melee, 8 armour, charge of 5. Again, cav doctrine dictates whether you would want GC or MC.

Once I leave the area where I will be fighting phalanx, my MC will probably go east. MC will be more effective against Pontus and Armenia than Rome, though cav archers could cause problems for them. But myself and Greece are the only ones left who really focus on phalanx, which is who MC are probably best at harassing. Roman units simply have too much defense to really use MC against them, same for AH.

Hi There,

Just playing the Seleucids on moderate/ moderate - this is my 5th campaign (Julii/ Britannia/ Parthia (don't ask)/ Germanica) so I am still fairly new - but here are my thoughts.

1) In the early game I actually have taxes set to 'low' - to encourage population growth. With the Seleucids I think I can afford it. I only increase them when circumstances require a big hit.
2) Armenia kept sending forces against my central town from the North - however they don't try and starve you out and usually the 'V-shaped' hoplites at the gates send them all routing.
3) Egypt came knocking. They offered a Protectorship but, having fallen for that playing Parthia, I declined.
4) The AI beats Egypt better than I can.
5) With the Egyptian attack blunted, I loaded an army onto a ship and took out the 3 Nile cities - Egypt crumbled. Cyprus went soon after.
6) The Greeks broke their allied status and sent a VERY large army (full of hoplites) against me. Expecting a siege I sent out half a dozen scythed chariots groups against them, to whittle them down, as I did not fancy having to play with them in a siege situation. Result: 650 casualties - TBH I was not expecting anything like that as I would have thought the phalanxs would have carved them up. (I got a **** Man of the hour out of that:))
7) Elephants seem rubbish - the few times I have used them they were routed very easily.
8) So now I hold pretty much everything in the South-East (Asia Minor, Pontus, Egypt) and am just about to start making cataphracts/ war elephants in Antioch. The Nile Cities are powerhousing the economy and pretty well all towns/ cities can be upgraded.
9) Armenia sent a raiding force against the ex=pontus city on the Black Sea. I found archers on the walls very effective (once I stopped trying to set the battering ram alight) They destroyed the force by the ram (I note no one tried to re-use it) and weakened the troops going up the ladders. (Once they reached the top, my hoplites quickly despatched them). Is there any way of creating a custom battle where you have to defend a town? I know you can attack one. The only one I have seen is the prepared one of Brittania Vs Julii and that is trivial to win.
10) If going into a battle where the result is uncertain, play it yourself unless your general is better ** than theirs. If the AI plays it then even if you lose you usually save your general -when I play it, my general nearly always gets killed before he routs.

My immediate goals are : Take Rhodes, the 3 Armenian provinces and the remaining Parthian one south of the Caspian. That will leave me with just Scythia to the North and Numidia in the West to defend against. Since my borders are now secure I can probably concentrate on roads/ ports/ markets for some cities.

However I seem to have a couple of options for the next few turns.

a) Try and take over Africa - this will presumably put me up against the Scipii (and by inference the other Roman factions) - for what would be a modest return (unless I can take Carthage)

b) Pop over to Greece - this would entail taking out the Greek Cities and Macedon to get my hands on the lucrative Mediterranean Trade, and no doubt would involve fighting the Brutii (although this is well before Marius). I must admit I would prefer to fight the Brutii when they hold 5 or 6 cities than when they hold 12 or more.

c) Blitzkrieg Southern Italy - on the assumption that the Italian Family forces are in what was Gaul/ Africa/ Greece - which would seriously damage both Brutii/ Scipii. The worry is that SPQR would lend a hand (as they have done in other games)

d) Go direct for Rome before it gets too big

So far, I have found that the second stage of the game is mainly naval warfare as you try to establish dominance of the Mediterranean. Once you have done that then the rest of the game is relatively easy as you have blockaded all the enemy ports and killed trade.

I know a lot is said about bribing, but IMHO a bribe seriously weakens cultural development (This is hypothetical, I think so far I have only managed to bribe one captain) - I spend money as fast as it comes in.

AI beats Egypt better than you? With Seleucia, I just let them waste themselves against Militia Hoplites in my towns. Their Chariots are worthless against phalanx, and MH are better than Nubian Spearmen. Tactic works even better against Armenia. Usually Parthia hits Seleucia (the city) with an all cav force, including Cataphracts, so unless you have built them up in the little time you have available, you will probably lose that town.

I have heard that with the chariots, if you do not tell your chariots to attack the phalanx but rather tell them to run behind the phalanx, you don't lose men like you would had you told your men to attack them. I almost never use chariots myself, unless Britannia, and then you don't have any other cav or archers. That said, they lose very quickly to Germanic Spear Warband.

As Seleucia, you are good enough to handle Rome even when they get powerful. Go for Greece to be sure, you will probably be weakening the Brutii, and Greece is fabulous for your finances.

Elephants are specialized. They own chariots and other cav, but are certainly not invincible, though they are powerful. Also, using War Ellies or Armoured Ellies is better, they are a lot less likely to go amok.

Also, when you use cav to fight, tell them to fight using the alt-click. The attack using your cavalry's swords (if they carry a secondary weapon) beats the attack when your cavalry are using their spears, though they still use the spears in a charge to get the charge bonus. This alternate attack is especially nice when you use your Cataphract's maces against armoured units. Also, same with Scythed Chariots, their secondary attack is AP. Now, I don't know if it is same method as elephants, where you need to use the alt to simply use arrows or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G2RfJHg9LE

I know the chariots are Pontic, but of course, faction does not affect performance.

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Elephants seem rubbish - the few times I have used them they were routed very easily.

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Baby Ellies (as I call them) are useful only very early in a game as battering rams against wooden walls. Indeed, they rout relatively quickly even in the hands of a good cavalry commander. War Ellies and Cataphract Ellies are another matter. They are second only to Cataphract Cavalry in breaking infantry lines. They are awesome against Roman post-Marian heavy infantry. They need to be handled in much the same way as Scythed Chariots. You don't want them milling around after the initial charge. If you zoom in close you'll see that they don't actually kill a lot of soldiers, but instead knock men down a cause a lot of formation disruption. And there's the key...formation disruption. As the Seleucids, you have a couple of deadly duos---Ellies/Scythed Chariots, and Ellies/Cataphracts.

You stack one behind the other with the Elephants taking point. You set a point behind the unit you want to hit, and have the Ellies charge for that point. They leave behind a severely disrupted formation with soldiers on the ground or milling about trying to get back into line. When the second wave hits them it's almost always insta-rout. Timing is critical as you don't want to give the enemy formation time to recover. Under the command of a skilled general even elite Roman cohorts crumble under this one-two punch.

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However I seem to have a couple of options for the next few turns.

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You can't go wrong with invading Greece. The income is simply fabulous. Also, since Seleucia is culturally Greek, you will have less trouble with conquered Greek cities. A word about your expansion...

As you expand westwards, you will more than likely have to relocate your capital. You most definitely need to keep the "distance-to-capital" penalty manageable. You also need to be mindful of your temple choices, and Seleucia has some good ones. Upon capturing a city, I almost always tear down the existing temple, with several notable exceptions: the Egyptian Pantheon Horus for it's +1 weapons upgrade combined with a very good law & order bonus; the Gallic Large Temple of Epona which Romans can upgrade to produce troops with +5 experience; and the Macedonian Temple of Zeus which is tied with the Egyptian Temple of Set for the highest number of total bonuses (law/order/military bonuses).

Having said all that, the further out you go, the handier the Seleucid Temple of Asklepios will become. It might be tempting to use Dionysus because of the whopping 50% happiness bonus, but the caveat in using it is the 1% population growth bonus (bad when you have captured a huge city), and some of the worst traits in the game being passed along to a governor (drink/gambling/perversion). Asklepios has a solid 25%/25% boost to law and happiness, a +2 bonus to trade, and a +2 bonus to unit experience (at Pantheon lvl). You do have to be careful of the "Hypochondriac' trait (absolutely ridiculous, IMHO) which grants a -6 to any generals hit-points...definitely not a good thing for a field general.

Anyway, hope you find some of this ramble useful~D

Thanks - It's all been useful - I have acheived my immediate goals (Armenia is an ex-faction, Parthia is stuck in the North-East and the Greek Cities are now no more (The Brutii tried the old make-alliance/ break alliance tactic and I don't think they are very happy I sunk a large army with my quinquiremes - they are now (I think) stuck to SE Italy and the North_West coast of Greece - they have one decent army on my side of the Adriatic, but it will be not too hard to take (once the plague has settled down).)

Over in Africa the Scipii are about to attack the capital of my Numidian Allies - so I've sent a force to support them. I suspect that bribary may be the answer since in the past games I played they Scipii plonked great numbers of troops into Africa. The Julii are presumably consolidating NW Europe, but I think it will be a case of blockading all the Mediterranean (I've never seen as much sea traffic in the Eastern Med as I have now)

Will have to spy out Italy, I think, now to find the weak spots. (I find the two-army routine useful - one fights a battle and then switches place with the one inside the city to be retrained - you can use up a lot of the population). Patavium would be a good city I think as it would Isolate the Brutii on the Hellenic peninsula and there are always tons of people to recruit.

(Slightly amusing - I built and then manned a temporary fort with a garrison of 1 elephant - smell of the dung is terrible:~:))

Update

Have made footfall in Italy - Brutii are down to one province in NW Greece - amazingly their income is STILL showing as massive on the graphs - this must be hard-wired into the game to allow them to expand as quickly as someone playing the Julii - all my reinforcements from the Middle East land at Sparta and spend a turn getting +2 experience from the temple there. Am going to go and take Palma to get a place to make ships in the Western Med. Scipii are clustering around Carthage, and I'm letting them enjoy the sights. Will play the game as if there is no winning condition, although in theory it could be over fairly soon. I own the whole of the South-East quadrant (capital Cyprus). It would be nice if there was some easy way to replay a campaign.