Carthage

My early strategy was to abandon both Corduba and Caralis (If nessasary). Take all troop and Family Member + Mercenaries from Palma and Corduba to Tingi and Cirta, conquer all of western Africa with that army. This will bring you revenue and security from the backstabbing Numidians. If you're lucky then there is an outside chance Spain and Gaul will leave Corduba alone long enough for it to defend itself. Caralis will certainly be taken by the Romans, no way I'm defending that. Sicilian house cleaning: step 1, take Hanno and his troops, recruit all mercenary you can, and head for Messina, crush all opposition. Use your navy (If you have it, I always do) to sink all Scipii reinforcement heading for Sicily. Then look to Syracuse. Take it, if held by Greek, siege and wait, or better. Sometimes the Brutii come and take Syracuse leave them to fight, straight after Brutii had taken it begin the siege, give them no time for retraining. Sink all reinforcement. After that (I had Sicilia + all of Western Africa), Carthage was concentrating on non-stopping troop producing project. I waited till I got an army of mainly Pony (Poeni) infantry backupped by Libyan Spearman. Plus longshield cavalry + Elephants. Brutii was the first to go.( they still had towns in the Balkans, I didn’t bother to attack them, they were keeping the Greeks, my ally who had become increasingly power, in check.) Than Capua, Rome. The Julii gave me an ultimatum but were powerless to stop me. Everything went smooth after that. The treasury were always under 50 K to prevent corruption, you just can’t trust a bunch of Merchants.

I never abandon anything. I lost Caralis to the Julii repeatedly, until I got my navy into total domination (which sank a bunch of Julii full stacks on their way to invade), but never allowed it to fall without a fight. Ever. :juggle2: Carthaginian Pride, y'know?

I abandon settlements if nessary, you know. Corduba is a lone town thounsands miles away form the city of Carthage itself. if it is invaded by an full-stack spanish or Gaul force than I really have no choice. the best it could train is town watch, a relief force send from Carthage would of taken at least 5 turns to get there. I have bigger fish to catch. similarity plays with Seleucid and Greece.

I think you enrich the gameplay if you vow never to lose a settlement. Things become very dramatic when the enemy attacks with relentless hordes, and you still hang on to honor your vow. :bow:

Re Chuckles:
I'll think about that.

"yep, i'll think about it, yeah.." *while slowly backing out of the door :P*

For a documentary about Hannibal's army, see this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=100426

Whever possible, do not abandon an "outpost." Strip them of whatever isn't strictly needed for defense and set them up as kill zones. Yes, you may well lose them, but nothing wrong with forcing the AI to take 5-6 turns and a stack-and-a-half plus worth of casualties to do it.

Abandoning Caralis I can understand, its a worthless shithole like the Numidian cities in the south. However I try to pump out peasants there every turn so that when it does fall, the Romans get as little cash as possible from selling slaves. It is a good magnet though, I use my navy to sink any Julii/ Scipii fleets approaching it. Once of them get through (inevitable as my fleets are worn down after battles) I load up all the peasants and wave good bye to Sardinia. Next turn the retrained fleets return and sink any Romans trying ot leave the island! :D

Abandoning Corduba boggles my mind though! Why? It is RICH! I try and start churning out RS cavalry from there ASAP. Combined with a small number of mercenaries and slingers, 6-10 RSC should be enought to see off any Spanish attack of Iberian infantry/ RS or Gallic warbands. There is a very defnsible bridge to the north also. The first reinforcements I manage to send from Africa or the Beleares (basically after Sicily is safe), I land and take Carthago Nova, and with the infantry buldings there, Spain should be secure on its own.

I abandon Caralis with hole army and transfer them to Sicily, then I create 3 iberian infantery, 2 horsemans, and 1 elephant. When I conquer Sicily I fight back Caralis and protect it only with 2 navy. I do not bother myself with africa I follow hanibbal way, I try to conquer Iberrian penninsula. And also continiu on attacking Sciipiai and Brutii sacking their towns.
p.s. Leave Scipiaii to conquer Sirakusa and you would remain ally with greeks and trade agreemants with them.

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Originally Posted by Flavius Merobaudes

For a documentary about Hannibal's army, see this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=100426

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If you play XGM, you will be able to build a army just like hannibal had.
Baleric slingers+Numidian Cavalry+Iberian Heavy Infantry

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Originally Posted by zedestroyer

If you play XGM, you will be able to build a army just like hannibal had.
Baleric slingers+Numidian Cavalry+Iberian Heavy Infantry

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And more importantly, you end up with a much more challenging game. XGM makes me sweat like RTW should have.

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Originally Posted by zedestroyer

If you play XGM, you will be able to build a army just like hannibal had.
Baleric slingers+Numidian Cavalry+Iberian Heavy Infantry

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OTOH, if you play Rome Total Realism - The Iberian Conflict, you'll be playing as Hamilcar Barca, looking to create a new empire from scratch in Iberia to replace the one they lost in Sicily and Sardinia.

RTR TIC intro movie

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Originally Posted by o_loompah_the_delayer

Abandoning Caralis I can understand, its a worthless shithole like the Numidian cities in the south. However I try to pump out peasants there every turn so that when it does fall, the Romans get as little cash as possible from selling slaves. It is a good magnet though, I use my navy to sink any Julii/ Scipii fleets approaching it.

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The depopulation reduces the value, as Caralis is already low, I've never done anything but occupy Caralis as it needs to get to 2,000 level asap to build a port (at which point Caralis value increases dramatically). Perhaps a scorched earth policy makes sense.

Presumably the intention is to export the peasants out, and boost economy somewhere holdable sooner? If not, then that would seem more optimal, than leaving them to be killed, the Roman General is particularly adept at avoiding losses to peasants.

Palma's another possession that can use a population boost, and may be ignored by AI, due to island status.

Avoiding pirates and having strength to distrupt Carthage is reason I build 3rd ship on very first turn as Jullii, which helps settle Massilia on 3rd game turn, taking it from rebel faction. So think the 660dn pays off handsomely, as you can then destroy Gaullish armies on the Rhone, with much smaller forces and lower losses than in open field.

I think abandoning Caralis is always a bad idea. No matter how worthless it might be, the Julii *want* it. As long as you hold Caralis, Julii will throw all their forces *there* and nowhere else, making it very easy to anticipate and thwart their attacks. Caralis is just a short boatride away from Carthage herself, so reinforcing it is not much of a problem.
If you abandon Caralis, then it opens up a whole front for the Julii: they will threaten Palma, Lilibaeum and even Carthage.

In short, Caralis might be worthless economically, but it is a real gem strategically.

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Originally Posted by rvg

I think abandoning Caralis is always a bad idea. No matter how worthless it might be, the Julii *want* it. As long as you hold Caralis, Julii will throw all their forces *there* and nowhere else, making it very easy to anticipate and thwart their attacks. Caralis is just a short boatride away from Carthage herself, so reinforcing it is not much of a problem.
If you abandon Caralis, then it opens up a whole front for the Julii: they will threaten Palma, Lilibaeum and even Carthage.

In short, Caralis might be worthless economically, but it is a real gem strategically.

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Messing with any Roman faction is always OK by me just on general principle, but I've found that usually, if I let the Julii have Caralis, they disappear into the wilds of darkest Gaul and I never even notice their existence until I invade Italy and start rolling them up. Granted, that's not a long wait, but when I play other nations, I almost never see the Julii harass Carthage other than by taking Caralis. If they take Palma or Corduba, it's almost always because they've already grabbed southern Gaul and Spain, and it's just the next settlement in line - and if I'm playing Carthage and things get that far, I'm doing something desperately wrong.

In short, while I approve of messing with the Julii as a matter of state policy, it doesn't seem like any kind of priority to me. I hold Caralis while I can, and ditch it when I need to. Eventually it's worthwhile - most of the island settlements are, if you can just build them up a bit - but until then, it's only of minor strategic importance.

If you play the Julii, taking Caralis is often due to a Senate mission.

The AI with Julii is so slow, they just creep North & West. If you divert significant forces from the Julii to take Caralis, then you are really helping Gaul. The reason a human Julii player moves against Carthage, is to interfere with the Scipii rival strategy, at a point when Carthage's forces are drawn out by the Scipii and Spain. The AI also tends to help by moving largish armies in single boat fleets, so you can prevent the recal to relieve the City by intercepting the fleet. The AI is also unlikely to be very well placed to take Carthage, as it'll be struggling to solve Army upkeep and development financial problems at start of game, not taking the 7 settlements that are up for grabs, with aggressive play (ignoring Caralis).

If I were playing Carthage, then it's the Scipii, who are the ones who really threaten you, so it would seem slowing them up is more important. Getting side-tracked into a tough battle with the Julii rather than letting them pass by, would appear to be a strategic error; unless you've captured Sicily say, but then I'd go for a surprise sack of Capua, rather than hold Caralis, much better trade.

There must be some rebel held settlement that's a soft target, and not going to attract a legion, backed by archers and heavy cavalry general.

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Originally Posted by RLucid

If I were playing Carthage, then it's the Scipii, who are the ones who really threaten you, so it would seem slowing them up is more important. Getting side-tracked into a tough battle with the Julii rather than letting them pass by, would appear to be a strategic error; unless you've captured Sicily say, but then I'd go for a surprise sack of Capua, rather than hold Caralis, much better trade.

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It's hard to get much slower than "dead", which is the usual fate of the Scipii very early in any successful Carthage campaign. The Roman problem crops up with the Julii and the Brutii, who are unlike the Scipii in that taking over Sicily doesn't gut them and leave them open to having their hearts cut out with a single city assault on mainland Italy. Granted, a fast attack on Italy will cripple the Brutii and the Julii as well as eliminating the Scipii, but tracking them down, especially the Julii who seem to randomly end up going just about anywhere on the map, can be annoying. By forcing them to indefinately stall at Caralis, you can really simplify the campaign, and bring it to an end quickly enough that you can refocus efforts on Greece and/or Egypt before either of those two fronts becomes the sucking chest wound in your empire that they often become if you let the enemy choose the time to start the war.

Carthage is unusual in that the war with the Romans is typically more of an inconvenience than an actual difficulty, and as such, should be regarded as a distraction from the main event, which is usually either Egypt or whoever ends up running Greece and Asia Minor. Or, in some particularly ugly cases, both.

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Originally Posted by Praetor Rick

It's hard to get much slower than "dead", which is the usual fate of the Scipii very early in any successful Carthage campaign. The Roman problem crops up with the Julii and the Brutii, who are unlike the Scipii in that taking over Sicily doesn't gut them and leave them open to having their hearts cut out with a single city assault on mainland Italy. Granted, a fast attack on Italy will cripple the Brutii and the Julii as well as eliminating the Scipii, but tracking them down, especially the Julii who seem to randomly end up going just about anywhere on the map, can be annoying. By forcing them to indefinately stall at Caralis, you can really simplify the campaign

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I think from that you agree with a pre-condition, of success in Sicily against the Scipii, being necessary to make holding Caralis come into consideration.

The Julii AI may struggle to take, the Italian Gaul towns, furthermore aren't they likely to come to the aid of Rome, when you push up Italian peninsula, allowing you to choose the battlefield to gut their army? They may also leave a key city lightly defended, and come under notable pressure from the Gauls who harbour grudges against invaders, and will attempt to re-take their starting cities.

Without a good base, the Julii lose proportional strength, at beginning of game they have a over-large army, subsidised by Senate missions, they *must* use it to gain a financial base, at price of conflict with barbarian north, in less lucrative parts of the map which need substantial development.

But Caralis is a side-show, if you can eliminate the Scipii, then Croton, Tarentum , Arretium & Rome are far greater prizes, than being pinned down to a dogged static defense of a non-strategic point, with small resources.

The Victory conditions for Carthage, are aimed at Scipii & SPQR, not the Julii so I'm not sure why they require special consideration, considering they have enough difficulty defeating the barbarians.

Being dynamic, and consider raiding (sacking and leaving a delaying garrison), you do the Julii greater inconvenience, initially letting them take Caralis, move off their army and small fleet elsewhere for deployment against the Gauls, leaving a small garrison. Then move to recapture it, possibly further depopulating the town, with strategic mobility to hit other Julii towns to draw on their forces. In that way, the Julii either have to adjust to recapture, or allow you to keep it; and you can keep them off balance, moving forces between theatres to counter your unpredictable offensive. Basically use the med, to attack the Julii on their perimeter, where their forces are necessarily going to spend much time marching, and will attract assaults by Barbarians adding to their difficulties.

That has to be superior to maintaining a large army, which could be better deployed elsewhere, very possibly for raids which unbalance the Roman factions, having them react to events.

Without Rome and the lucrative trade, between the large cities on Italian peninsular, the Julii are not going to gain great strength. After Scipii, the Senate and Brutii ought to be the priorities. Without the Italian base, the Brutii will have a much harder time, expanding rapidly in Greece. Especially considering that AI probably prioritises homeland defense, over establishing a new base in Greece.

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Originally Posted by RLucid

But Caralis is a side-show, if you can eliminate the Scipii, then Croton, Tarentum , Arretium & Rome are far greater prizes, than being pinned down to a dogged static defense of a non-strategic point, with small resources.

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Caralis is a side show, but it's a worthwhile side show if you can manage it. Sure, the cities on mainland Italy are more important, but they're also harder to deal with. A couple units of cavalry, a couple of town watch, and a general is plenty to hold Caralis against the Julii.

Better to use a small garrison and some boats, which deny Rome & Arretium sea-trade, and allow you to threaten a very long flank.

As portrayed, holding Caralis you aim to draw the Julii into stubbornly sending ever bigger armies to take the place, and that is just plain bad strategy, drawing unecessary fire and commitments. You *want* them to go and get ensnared in Gaul and with (eventually) Germania, not concentrate against Carthage over a small village which takes ages to build a port.

Any defensive army, is likely to be more effectively deployed re-inforcing the key offensive, and the suggested cavalry units make great movement blockers, as HI armies can't get to grips with them. Those units might prevent a re-inforcement and allow capture of a mainland city & re-training, which would not have been feasible without the "screen".

You also gain more, by intercepting a fleet with land units, sent to recapture the town, if you pursue the recapture option. Or if you strand enemy land units on the island, which would be better used to safeguard their homeland.


The stubborn dogged defense, smacks of "We have what we hold!"

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Originally Posted by RLucid

... You *want* them to go and get ensnared in Gaul and with (eventually) Germania, not concentrate against Carthage over a small village which takes ages to build a port...

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On VH that will not work. VH AI has enemy that it will pick to almost complete exclusion of evryone else: the player. That means that after taking Caralis the Julii will *not* divert their attention to the Gaul. No, instead they will organize another expedition, this time to Palma, which is FAR mopre difficult for Carthage to hold. If Palma falls, they will take Corduba as well. On the other hand, if Caralis remains Carthaginian, the Julii will never expand beyond the Cisalpine Gaul. All their armies will die in the forsts of Sardinia to the Carthaginian Sacred bands. The julii faction will remain weak and marginal. As for the Scipii, they are a goner anyway: once they lose their corner of Sicily (which is the standard Carthaginian opening) they are a non-player. So yes, abandoning Caralis is a terrible idea because it strengthens the Julii and opens the other carthaginian provinces for a Julii assault.

Palma's another side-show. It seems that, the AI is successfully diverting your attention from the key objectives. If you let the Juliii carry out that plan, and counter-attack at sea, and with forces re-taking Caralis on way to the main front, the Julii have spent fair amount of time, shifting things about to not much effect. The AI takes a long time to achieve it's objectives, in the mean time, you will do a lot more serious damage, and capture key economic towns.

The Julii AI is very broken if it's taking time to take such settlements, before securing it's position in N. Italy. VH may be broken, the +7 anti-player attack factors, make the player armies look much weaker distorting the game. If despite the skewing of unit strengths, you can defeat outnumbering Julii forces, with a few cheap units in a land battle, then it seems that VH is not really doing the job that's intended. Possibly the auto-calc Naval battles are harder to win, so you avoid them. But then the strategy is becoming highly distorted and implausible, so I wonder why bother with the setting if battle exploits permit you to overcome the handicap? Why not defeat them later on (permitting them to develop the towns in meantime), at the choke-points in Spain, where you need to have forces anyway, to counter Spanish aggression?

Without economic development through the Mediolanum & Patavium towns, with mines of Segestica, the Julii cannot afford decent armed forces, and will not become a serious power. The Roman's in general will be much poorer, due to lack of trading ports. The Gauls still tie down, a relatively large defensive force in N. Italy, and they do move against the Rebs in Segestica gaining a valuable mine.

Taking towns in Italy and disrupting the Roman trade which they rely on, is much more valuable than these fishing & farming villages. If you can defeat the Scipii, then there's going to be a tough fight on, in southern Italy where victory really stymies the Roman cause. The bottom line is, Italy is worth far more than the whole of Spain, once you hold Italy, re-capturing Spain will be very feasible.

Furthermore if the Juliii are going walk-about on expeditions, then mobile counter-attacks are going to disrupt them, and divert resources back. Also I wonder why on earth the AI is being allowed to use the sea, where it's land forces are vulnerable to naval attack.

Control of sea, seems to me to be a vital priority for Carthage, and those units you fight in forests of Sardinia, could be destroyed at sea (Palma's a long way). It might be better strategy even to strand them on an island, so the AI continue to pay their upkeep, but unable to re-deploy them. Hannibal was really defeated, because the Romans controlled the sea, and had trade to support their war effort and money to replace catastrophic losses, and keep their Italian allies on side. That meant he could not bring up a good siege train to capture Rome, nor could he reinforce his main army, directly. The Romans had interior lines, and were able to concentrate to ensure Hasdrubal's army was destroyed in N. Italy, rather than link up with Hannibal's main force. They also counter-attacked in Spain, with Scipio weakening the Carthaginian alliances, economy and hold of troop recruiting ground.

The true might of Rome, is economic power through trade, allowing it to develop, and build large armies replacing huge losses. Without seeing to it's future economic strength, losing the Scipii ports, having home territory decisevely invaded weakens them more gravely than chopping up some units, sent to Sardinia.

Those Sacred Bands, are better deployed offensively in the main campaign, where you can do real damage to the Roman factions, and gain real strength, from developed territory. Take out their heartland and they're just a minor nuisance civilised faction, rather than a real threat.

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Originally Posted by RLucid

The Julii AI is very broken if it's taking time to take such settlements, before securing it's position in N. Italy. VH may be broken, the +7 anti-player attack factors, make the player armies look much weaker distorting the game. If despite the skewing of unit strengths, you can defeat outnumbering Julii forces, with a few cheap units in a land battle, then it seems that VH is not really doing the job that's intended. Possibly the auto-calc Naval battles are harder to win, so you avoid them. But then the strategy is becoming highly distorted and implausible, so I wonder why bother with the setting if battle exploits permit you to overcome the handicap? Why not defeat them later on (permitting them to develop the towns in meantime), at the choke-points in Spain, where you need to have forces anyway, to counter Spanish aggression?

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I fight the Julii in Caralis so that they don't go anywhere. I don't find the Julii to be as consistently stupid as you do, although it does happen fairly often. Sometimes they spread to some incredibly random and thoroughly inconvenient distant location and are a thorn in my side until i can finally get to them and eliminate them once and for all. By stalling them at Caralis, I reduce the odds of that happening, so when I get to northern Italy, I'm eliminating the Julii completely instead of just seizing their best assets.

As for the difficulty setting, the truth is, nothing they could do to the difficulty levels will fix that issue. The problem is the AI, not the adjusted unit strengths. As long as the AI fights like an idiot, battles will continue to be either cakewalks (if flanking continues to work) or impossible (if the bonuses are made so large that even flank attacks will not let you defeat enemy units). The stupidity of the AI makes this inevitable.

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Taking towns in Italy and disrupting the Roman trade which they rely on, is much more valuable than these fishing & farming villages. If you can defeat the Scipii, then there's going to be a tough fight on, in southern Italy where victory really stymies the Roman cause. The bottom line is, Italy is worth far more than the whole of Spain, once you hold Italy, re-capturing Spain will be very feasible.

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Not really. The six provinces in Italy aren't really much better than the six provinces in Spain, once they're equally developed. The big downer about Spain is that all of its provinces have bonus unrest. Yuck! Further, while it is certainly more valuable to take Italy than to maintain a foothold in Spain, it's also much harder. Keeping Corduba against the worst the Spanish and Gauls can do to you is fairly trivial, given the quality of the mercenaries you can hire in Spain and the number of river crossings you can defend. The territory practically defends itself as long as you're not a complete idiot.

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The true might of Rome, is economic power through trade, allowing it to develop, and build large armies replacing huge losses. Without seeing to it's future economic strength, losing the Scipii ports, having home territory decisevely invaded weakens them more gravely than chopping up some units, sent to Sardinia.

Those Sacred Bands, are better deployed offensively in the main campaign, where you can do real damage to the Roman factions, and gain real strength, from developed territory. Take out their heartland and they're just a minor nuisance civilised faction, rather than a real threat.

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Maintaining enough troops in Caralis to fight off the first and possibly second Julii invasion of Caralis is also a minor nuisance, one that is (IMHO) worth it to stave off a different, but longer lasting minor nuisance later on.

My basic point is not that holding Caralis or Corduba is more important than striking at the Roman heartland, but rather, that there is no reason not to do all three. Is it better to conquer Italy, hold Caralis, and hold Corduba; or to conquer Italy, lose Caralis, and lose Corduba? The answer is, fairly obviously, the first is better. Holding Caralis and Corduba is only a disadvantage if doing so causes you to lose Italy, and I've never had that happen. A strong offensive posture in Italy is enough to carry through to victory if you fight your armies well. There isn't any need to abandon Caralis or Corduba, because both take only trivial resources to hold. Caralis is easy to hold because the same offensive posture in Italy that is vital to success also distracts the Julii from their invasion plans before the invading armies get too big to economically defeat. Corduba is easy to hold because the terrain in Spain is practially tailor made for easy defense.

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Originally Posted by Praetor Rick

Sometimes they spread to some incredibly random and thoroughly inconvenient distant location and are a thorn in my side until i can finally get to them and eliminate them once and for all.

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If they're "inconvenient & distant", then it is peculiar that they are a thorn in the side. The game economics favour the central locations, which can build a trading empire, with interior lines based around the seas. That allows concentration against threats, and effective economic warfare with navies.

I also find it hard to understand how a small Julii region, isolated from the Roman trade, can be so hard to deal with, once you've defeated Scipii, SPQR, and Brutii in Italy.

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As for the difficulty setting, the truth is, nothing they could do to the difficulty levels will fix that issue. The problem is the AI, not the adjusted unit strengths. As long as the AI fights like an idiot, battles will continue to be either cakewalks

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Agreed. If the AI on VH is ignoring it's economic base, aiming at quick victories which you can actually defeat, then it's going to be easier to beat than if it really develops a sound economic base, following a sounder long term strategy. The problem is if the difficulty setting is distorting strategy overly, and causing the strategy AI to make poorer decisions, it is self-defeating. Generally I see it as being very slow, and methodical, passing up opportunities, but apart from the Diplomacy side, not totally illogical and senseless.

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Not really. The six provinces in Italy aren't really much better than the six provinces in Spain, once they're equally developed.

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Takes a long time, Spain has nice mines, but Italy has the rich Aegean nearby, whereas Spain is off one edge, with poor Atlantic trade. Those who own the sea, also find it easy to gain a foothold, and invade as the interior is large and divided, making movement slower than in Italy.

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Maintaining enough troops in Caralis to fight off the first and possibly second Julii invasion of Caralis is also a minor nuisance, one that is (IMHO) worth it to stave off a different, but longer lasting minor nuisance later on.

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That's more reasonable than the "Hold at all Costs" pride approach, some have advocated. Your assessment of the forces sent to, sounds more plausible than some posts.

If you play chess, then you're more willing to give up something, in return for greater benefits. Especially if you see you can take back later on, to eliminate the opponents compensation. It is just a more efficient, faster way to victory, than stonewalling every initiative of opponent regardless of it's merits.

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My basic point is not that holding Caralis or Corduba is more important than striking at the Roman heartland, but rather, that there is no reason not to do all three. Is it better to conquer Italy, hold Caralis, and hold Corduba; or to conquer Italy, lose Caralis, and lose Corduba?

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Your plan has seemed reasonable. But there must be a good chance that the Julii will have to fight the Gauls if they don't have to reinforce, & reattempt taking Caralis (because of the way the AI works, 1 goal at a time). Also if they go off into the blue yonder, hard to track down, they make more enemies along the way.

Why is giving it up, with idea of retaking it at a convenient moment as good?

Corduba, has good defensive terrain, and it takes time to get there. Palma was mentioned, as being the next target. Secure medium term borders in N. Italy, on the Massilia, Medio, Patavium, Segestica line, would be well worth, giving up Caralis, Palma, Carthago Neuvo & Corduba; until you can consolidate and re-conquer.

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Holding Caralis and Corduba is only a disadvantage if doing so causes you to lose Italy, and I've never had that happen. A strong offensive posture in Italy is enough to carry through to victory if you fight your armies well. There isn't any need to abandon Caralis or Corduba, because both take only trivial resources to hold. Caralis is easy to hold because the same offensive posture in Italy that is vital to success also distracts the Julii from their invasion plans before the invading armies get too big to economically defeat. Corduba is easy to hold because the terrain in Spain is practially tailor made for easy defense.

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That is at odds for the other argument given, that Caralis draws all the Julii fire, until they capture it. Your point on distraction of Julii by their reaction to your campaign, is one I agree with and made earlier in a response.

The reason to be willing to bend in the breeze, is so the Juliii can have the chance to get entangled with the Gauls (who don't forget grudges), and avoid resisting them with significant forces unecessarily, before the main thrust gains momentum on the Italian peninsula. Perhaps VH really does cause all other factions to maintain solid peace and only go after the player, but it didn't seem to in my games.

It cannot be optimal strategy, to maintain a dogged static defense "out of principal". A strong player should be willing to give up something in a less important area, seeking a larger advantage somewhere strategically more significant. As Carthage is a sea going empire, it would appear very odd, not to take advantage of dynamic opportunities offered by naval warfare.

I'm willing to lose Caralis. I'm not willing to lose Caralis without a fight, as some advocate. The Julii come in as pussycats for the first, and sometimes second invasion attempts. Having them waste the effort on Caralis, where a canny player can be sure they'll lose seems better to me than giving them Caralis and letting them then head off into Gaul, where the idiotic AI that builds all-Warband armies almost guarantees that they'll win. Even if I lose the first attack, which typically only happens if I don't reinforce the settlement with even a second Town Watch, I've still probably cost the AI more to take the settlement than it cost me to try to hold it.

As for containing the Julii - if they have Condate Redonum or some such, and you ignore them, it's quite likely that soon enough they'll have a few territories in Gaul, and later, likely all of Gaul, and become your neighbors - and they're terrible neighbors. Yeah, they're only a minor nuisance when all they've got is crummy Gaul settlements and no Senate funding them nor any fellow Romans backing them up, but the point is - why fight them twice? The last thing I need is the Julii hitting me in the back with a biggish army when I'm tied up in Greece, Asia Minor, or Egypt. I mean, no, they can't ever beat me once I kick them out of Italy, but I dislike leaving live enemies behind me. If I have to do so, I'd rather they be an enemy who sends crappy all Warband armies against me than Hastati. I can beat either one, but it's easy to basically ignore the Gauls with a single river defense, while the Julii will end up being more economical to conquer Gaul - and I don't particularly want Gaul when I'm playing Carthage.

Caralis is worth fighting for. It's even worth fighting pretty hard for - after all, you're going to be fighting the Julii anyway at some point, and every unit you destroy at Caralis is one unit that will neither attack you later somewhere else nor help the Julii acquire more territory to help build up their forces. It's not worth losing Sicily or mainland Italy for, but that's an uncommon choice to face in my experience.

Plus, in an emergency, units in Caralis can come and help relieve Carthage when the inevitable Numidian backstab comes - and if they've fought a few Julii invasions, they may even have some extra experience.

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Originally Posted by Praetor Rick

I'm willing to lose Caralis. I'm not willing to lose Caralis without a fight, as some advocate. The Julii come in as pussycats for the first, and sometimes second invasion attempts. Having them waste the effort on Caralis, where a canny player can be sure they'll lose seems better to me than giving them Caralis and letting them then head off into Gaul, where the idiotic AI that builds all-Warband armies almost guarantees that they'll win.

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They take a very long time to move through Gaul though. They capture lightly populated undeveloped settlements, which are capitol intensive. Having them distracted and needing big armies to face up to the Gauls, is an advantage. In the basic game, I've seen them struggle to take Mediolanum (requiring Brutii assistance to destroy the main Gaul army), nevermind getting through Massilia, and up to Alesia. Remember the AI has a propensity to launch it's Generals onto spear points.

If the Julii don't expand fast early in game they are basically broke, without funds to build the economy and grow their army. What I've seen of it, it'd be a small problem to catch them up and overtake them, nevermind just keeping them weak, and fighting barbarians.

Then an aesthetic point. This business of the Julii stubbornly re-attacking Caralis with a small unbalanced army, and not learning from previous defeats, is basically taking advantage of a "brain-dead" AI. It is far too implausible, that would happen, so it rather spoils the game. It is not that they are desperately attempting to re-take a town, relieve one, or link up with another army.

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As for containing the Julii - if they have Condate Redonum or some such, and you ignore them, it's quite likely that soon enough they'll have a few territories in Gaul, and later, likely all of Gaul, and become your neighbors - and they're terrible neighbors. Yeah, they're only a minor nuisance when all they've got is crummy Gaul settlements and no Senate funding them nor any fellow Romans backing them up, but the point is - why fight them twice?

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Because they civilise and develop settlements for you, and you can keep them weak, by following them. Effectively you have allied yourself with Gaul, who can survive quite a while and be a trading partner.

If you try the Vanilla PBM mod to, the Gauls are a tougher proposition, mixing in more skirmishers and swordsmen, and without the Britannia threatening their rear, from Sarambovira.

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The last thing I need is the Julii hitting me in the back with a biggish army when I'm tied up in Greece, Asia Minor, or Egypt. I mean, no, they can't ever beat me once I kick them out of Italy, but I dislike leaving live enemies behind me.

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They're a buffer zone, keep the pressure on, whichever faction is on your border, they're going to be trouble, but without the Archer's or good Javelin forces, an HI shock combat (hand to hand) faction that lightly uses Cavalry would appear ideal opposition for your Phalanxes, supported by missile troops and cavalry.

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Caralis is worth fighting for. It's even worth fighting pretty hard for - after all, you're going to be fighting the Julii anyway

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Cleverer to time it, get out of the way, allow them to gain other enemies, who are natural allies of yours, and then strike back later at an opportune moment, when they struggle to respond. Remember they probably need to rebuild a fleet, to make another landing possible.

As for the Numidian backstab, a strategic reserve in a port with fleet present can respond rapidly from Sicily or Croton/Terranto area, whilst also covering the Peloponese. Diplomats and spies, make it hard to be too suprised.

Caralis in opposition hands, is not desirable and strategically important if they are capable of offensive action against Carthage. It makes a good spot to launch suprise attacks + blockade from. I've never seen the Julii AI be able to move on Carthage, and if the Scipii are beat, it appears most unlikely that such an attempt would be feasible.

I've always fought tooth and nail to keep the Julii out of Caralis and feel outraged when they insist on re-invading no matter how many times you slaughter their crappy hastati when you just know they should be attacking the Gauls instead. When playing as Carthage I always find that you can gain much from naval dominance over the Romans around Sicily: sinking stacks of AI Romans on single boats sure improves the odds in the land battles.

I have seen the Julii take Caralis and then land big stacks to attack Carthage early on when playing the Scippii and Brutii and have often done it myself when playing the Julii. This suggests to me that as Carthage you should make the effort to keep the other Roman factions (Julii and Brutii) away from your backyard at all costs so you can focus on the demolition of the Scipii without distractions. If you control the sea you can attack the Romans where and when you want with elephants to bash the walls in, Balearic slingers to slaughter everything inside and roundshields to mop up. Feel free to massacre for loads of denarii and then retrain basic units and move on. Roman cities grow fast and you need to rebuild everything to lose the culture penalties.

Focus especially on annihilating a Roman faction when feasible. Every one you waste means a set of huge bodyguard nightmares you can well do without. Every faction destroyed is a cobble stone road of skulls on the path to a great white and purple European Empire of which Dido would be proud!

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Originally Posted by Timoleon the Brave

I've always fought tooth and nail to keep the Julii out of Caralis and feel outraged when they insist on re-invading no matter how many times you slaughter their crappy hastati when you just know they should be attacking the Gauls instead. When playing as Carthage I always find that you can gain much from naval dominance over the Romans around Sicily: sinking stacks of AI Romans on single boats sure improves the odds in the land battles.

I have seen the Julii take Caralis and then land big stacks to attack Carthage early on when playing the Scippii and Brutii and have often done it myself when playing the Julii. This suggests to me that as Carthage you should make the effort to keep the other Roman factions (Julii and Brutii) away from your backyard at all costs so you can focus on the demolition of the Scipii without distractions. If you control the sea you can attack the Romans where and when you want with elephants to bash the walls in, Balearic slingers to slaughter everything inside and roundshields to mop up. Feel free to massacre for loads of denarii and then retrain basic units and move on. Roman cities grow fast and you need to rebuild everything to lose the culture penalties.

Focus especially on annihilating a Roman faction when feasible. Every one you waste means a set of huge bodyguard nightmares you can well do without. Every faction destroyed is a cobble stone road of skulls on the path to a great white and purple European Empire of which Dido would be proud!

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I rarely see the Julii land in Africa, although it has happened a few times when I to toggle_fow playing somebody else just to check up on world progress. However, I've seen them end up pretty much everywhere else, and I find it easier to hang them up at Caralis before they have a chance to go anywhere else. Personal preference - I find it insupportable to leave any Roman faction alive, and tracking the Julii down to the far ends of the earth and sea is significantly harder than just stopping them at Caralis until you can get a navy big enough to stop them off the shore of Caralis.

I play carthage on Vh/Vh and it is not that hard:yes: All you do is wait in sicily. Put your spy in messana and when the scippi attack syracuse, then you attack messana. They leave it with one unit their faction leader, easy city to win. The scippi stay with syracuse and all you have to do is wait for them to die fighting the greeks. Then you take the weakened syracuse by starving them out.
The numidians attacked after i pacified sicily and bribed lepcis magna to my side. My two town watch in lepcis magna dominated them, it was sad.
In spain you simply have to keep a standing army of cav slingers and spanish mercs and you dominate. until you can ship over more exotic troops like elephants.
The julii still havent attacked caralis.:2thumbsup:
They haven't attacked because i am so intent on making gaul the superpower, the julii have actually lost a settlement. it also solves my spanish problem. "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
Everyone complains about how big a money pit carthage is, alternation is the key!!! One military building two economic buildings, ive never gone below 160 denarii.
Navy is the key, main way i support my allies (macedon and gaul) is with my navy. ive have 3 full stack navies and 4 blockading navies (for italy) They dominate pirates in the east, and blockade the greeks for macedon in the west
Macedon has conqured all of greece except for sparta. I have even given them two settlements. And their people practically bow to me. all i have to do is support them with 2000 denarii a turn and give them naval support. I even assasinate for them.:2thumbsup: I make 15000 denarii per turn and do all this with three theaters of war and 4 full stacks of men! Finally spies are paramount if you have a stack of men and three spies no gate can stop you, NONE! And im not a lightweight either, i as i said earlier i play vh/vh. (sorry if that comes off as snotty its not supposed too.
Oh and lastly i just got Hannibal Barka (genius trait and now at ten stars is called the great), and strangely enough his father is Hammilkar barka who is historically his father (I believe), sadly his brother is only fifteen so no way to prove if the game is just messing with my mind or if its historically accurate:sweatdrop: it gives me shivers...