The Curia

For what reasons should the Legio II suddenly be banished from the theatre of war? Exactly what have we done to deserve such a turn of events? Asked for a province to govern in the name of the Senate, no less? Is that such a crime? Fine, I would withdraw my request if I thought it would get me anywhere.

Pvblivs Atilvs, I am glad you do not fall for this man, Tiberius Claudius. He is little more than a lying snake, who in one breath denounces all that I do, only to copy it in a more disguised manner. I may not have developed a sense of embelishment and garnish in what I say or ask for, but why should that mean anything less. I am a soldier, I do not need pretty words and sweet nothings to ask for the things I want.

And as you, Pvblivs Atilvs, believe, the legions should not be used as political tools for enhancement and recognition. If we look past the commanding officers for a moment and see just the legions, where is the idea spring from that it would be better to bring Legio III back to Italy, retrain it and then send it to Illyria for the frontlines, when Legio II is already there. This is nothing more than your attempt to raise yourself higher than anyone else. Your not even the commander of said legion for the Gods sakes!

I hope you realise I have received absoultely nothing for the success of the Dux Campaign last year. No riches, no promotions, and the only recognition I received was that I only could have done better. I am not asking now for riches and promotions; I have no need for such mental strains on my body and mind. What I want is recognition, a little respect for the success of our first large scale overseas invasion. Can you not grant me that?

"I am... surprised, to say the least, of this new speech of yours, Caivs Avrelivs. Was it all directed at me? Because I do not see how much of it applies to anything I have said.

But as for the part about keeping Legio III in Illyria, I think that is the wisest because Massalia could be better covered by Legio I, and Syracuse by the Consular Legion, so I see no reason to abort their current objective to keep Illyria firmly secure from any intrusion from Greece. Legio II is there already, but if that is a valid objection, then the very same goes for every other front as well!

But I do see your argument, though, and it brings one thing to my attention: the Boii. We cannot forget the Gauls! If Legio I goes past Massalia, Legio II stays in Illyria, Legio III either stays in Illyria or invades Greece while Legio IV makes sure the Carthaginians don't come through Sicilia, who will be covering the northern border? It would be completely open for the Boii, or any other of those barbarians! Perhaps it's better if Legio III gets stationed in Bononia to guard against such an incursion?"

Pvblivs is about to sit down again, but quickly rises.

"Oh, and as for your wish for recognition, if I have forgotten to congratulate you, then you must forgive me. There has, after all, been a lot of my mind lately, and it's hard to keep trace of every small thing. I have never meant to diminish what you have actually done, but only tried to keep the praise at sensible levels. And", Pvblivs adds, "I don't think you could call the spoils in Illyria "nothing". It may not be as much as you would get from Greece, but it should be enough to satisfy any pirate's greed."

My last speech was directed in anger at you, Pvblivs Atilvs; rather I was thanking you for not falling for Tiberius Marcellus' flowery words.

I agree that Legio III should be sent north. The Alps are only a barrier for those over the other side. We still have the Insurburgs, the Boii and other Gallic tribes within our midst. They do not honour treaties or ceasefires. They raid, kill, sleep, whenever they want to. If we refuse completely to station men in the north, whats to stop them sweeping down the length of Italia and attacking Roma herself? Our legions will be at opposite ends of the Republic. We cannot have that.

It should be Legio III's job, seeing as they need to travel back to Italia for retraining anyway, whereas Legio II is able to stay in Illyria for a while yet. Once retrained, Legio III can set about contructing forts at the rivers and bottlenecks to the north, and any other natural defensive position. If we shall we are strong, our enemies will look elsewhere for easier raiding targets.

And upon my acquring of riches in Illyria, yes, I received the same amount as every man in the Legio II. I do not make differentiate between rank and birth as Legion Commander, and will not allow my officers to do so either. Extra rations or pickings go to those who have fought the best, the bravest and the most sacrificial. Any extra hoardings acquired in the pirate expidition go to the people of Roma and other cities in Italia. We are a nation of citizen soldiers-the citizens should share in their soldiers' victories.

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Originally Posted by SwissBarbar

(OOC: please note that I wrote edict 5.3 again, because the number 5.3. from TCV unfortunately is not valid)

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OOC: After seeking counsel with Navarro, it appears that mine was, in fact, valid as I do have one amendment and one edict as a Dux. Since so much confusion arose, I will quote it here and anyone who wish to second it can second it now. SwissBarbar's is, unfortunately, invalid for this reason.

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Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking

Edict 5.3: A unit of hastati from Legio I Apvlia should be disbanded and replaced by two units of triarii, and a unit of of accensi from the same replaced with leves.

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Cant one of them just become Edict 5.6?

OOC: Of course. Once SwissBarbar changes that, his edict will be correct and "secondable" too.

But Servivs Sempronivs has already modified Avlvs Aemilius' Edict, which, if resubmited, would contradict your Edict 5.3. Is that agreeable with you?

"Avlvs Aemilivs has not allowed the change, so if he resubmits the edict correctly in the way it is currently stated, it does not contradict mine at all. However, I have decided to edit my own, in an attempt to get it all in one:

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Edict 5.3: The following changes should be made:

Legio I Apvlia and Legio III Campania should have 2 Hastati changed into 2 Principes, 2 Principes into 2 Triarii, 1 Accenci to 1 Leves, as well as one unit of Rorarii recruited.
OOC: IG terms, this is 1 Hastati and 1 Accenci disbanded and 2 Triarii, 1 Leves and 1 Rorarii raised.

Legio II Latium should have 3 units of Hastati made into 3 units of Principes, 2 units of Principes made into 2 units of Triarii and 1 Accenci replaced with 1 Leves. 2 new units of Hastati should also be raised.
OOC: IG terms, this is 1 Hastati and 1 Accenci disbanded, and 1 unit of Principes, 2 units of Triarii and 1 unit of Leves raised.

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This way Legio I, II and III will all consist of 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 2 Triarii, 1 Accenci, 1 Leves, 1 Eqvites and 1 Rorarii. I think that is the best way to have it, and no Legio will get a greater reward than the other."

(Edit OOC: Edict put in a quote box to more easily separate it from the rest of the post.)

I agree, and reresecond Edict 5.3

OOC: I wasn't here the whole day, so I couldn't allow the change of number. But it's obvious that I would want my edict to be valid so most obviously I'd allow the change of the number (please, let's not be excessively bureaucratic). But TCV's solution is fine as well. thanks


Patres Conscripti, I withdraw my edict for obvious reasons, and also second edict 5.3 which kindly was overworked by Pvblivs Atilivs. Accept my thanks.

"In regards to Publius Atilius' Edict 5.3 being re-clarified I second it. We also have yet to hear from the junior Senatores who have recently been elected. Gentlemen, speak your minds. Do not let old windbags and raised voices deter you. You are one of us, and your input is desired and needed so that we have a better picture of what the body thinks.

"Caius Aurelius, asking for rewards and to be assigned certain ranks is not a crime; but it is not the behaviour of a noble man. You act as a beggar on the street corner eeking out alms in the muck by feigning blindness or lameness. You are a Dux of the Res Publica, act like one! It is one thing to run for a publicly elected office and quite another to place yourself in the nomination process for a position of political appointment. You, like each of us, are to be granted what the Senate and the People of Roma deem fit for you. To request anything personal at all is ungracious and reveals your greedy character.

"While I do not speak for Dux Servius Sempronius, the Third Legio is more than capable of handling the barbarians to the north, and is willing to assist the First should they require aid against the armies of Carthago. However, Dux Caius Aurelius and the Second legio must be watched, for I do not trust him as far as I can throw him. It concerns me greatly that a man who was so opposed to our intial idea to invade Greece now demands that he be stationed there, ready to continue 'the good fight', as it were. Where was your support when we needed it to begin with, Caius Aurelius? Fellow Senatores, he witheld it to advance his own proposition to bring himself further glory and honor - honors which I and others believe are only worthy of an Ovation. No triumphus indeed!" Multiple Senatores, including Caius the Fat, cheered their agreement. Tiberius looked up into the seating and raised his voice that it could be heard adequately in the cavernous hall, "Servius Sempronius, what say you of the destiny of the Legio III?"

I still do not support an invasion of Greece. Greece has conducted no wrongs on Roma, and how can we punish one that has commited no crime? It is Epirus that holds my eyes, and it is in Illyria that I intend to fight him. Only on the will of the Senate or if a crisis befitting such an action would arise would I turn the Legio II to invade Greece. They are not our enemies.

(OOC: Greece is still only the Peloponesus [I know thats spelt wrong], Attika and Aietolia. Epirus, Thessaly and Makedonia are seperate from Greece. Therefore, attacking Greece would be attacking the cities held my the KH, who are not enemies.)

"Dux Regvlvs, apart from our many disagreements, I do agree that Legio I is very suitable with taking the fight to the Carthaginians. However, it saddens me that you have shown a bit of doubt towards the men of Legio IV. If you legio is to march from massilia into say, Iberia, then why not allow Legio IV to take sicila. At our hands, we could pinch the Carthaginians into chaos and they would be easily defeated. That would leave their great trading ports at Sardin and Corsica to be taken as well. What say you?"

"I too resecond Edict 5.3

As for the fate of the Legio III. It is clear that the men of the Legio III are more than capable of defending against the barbarians in the north, yet i do not feel that our fight lies in the north. It seems to me that we ought to apply our assets to the defense or continued conquest in Ilyria or the war with Carthage. Rather than sending the Legio IV to Sicily send the Legio III. The Legio IV could then be in charge of defending the north as well as putting down the rebel uprisings, which seem to be popping up all around our state. With the combined experience of the Legios I and III sicily would fall easily to our forces. Also, if we vote to commission another Legio, defense of both Ilyria and the north would be made even easier. However, where the Legio III ends up fighting is in your hands."

It is now obvious that each Legion commander wishes his legion to be in the thick of the action. We must, however, remain practical. I am no friend of Tiberius Claudius, that much is well known. I do not, however, have any argument with Servivs Sempronivs or Pvblivs Atilivs. Although the north is not a promising tour of duty for the moment, it is the Legio III who are the most practical legion to be sent there. The rebels will soon be dealt with, and I dare say an entire consular legion would have no trouble in defeating the Carthaginians in Sicilia, even if they did reinforce their ranks with more troops from Afrika or even allied themselves with the city of Syracuse.

Speaking to Servius Sempronius,

"Well said, sir, well said. Quite the interesting proposal, one that I must say could bear much fruit. If the Legio I is garrisoned in Massalia, with the Legio IV as added defense in Bononia, then the Legio II and a newly created Legio V could defend Illyria from Epirote counter attacks, leaving the Legio III to guard the southern border of Italia, possibly even conducting feints into Sicilia in order to draw Carthaginian attention away from southern Gaul. If opportunity presented itself, we could even annex the good people of Messana and offer them protection from the Carthaginian menace.

"Senatores, this proposal bears much merit and should be considered as a proper replacement and compromise to the conflicting opinions of how we should wage this uninvited war. I beseech you to not listen to the plans of Dux Caius Aurelius Cotta. He is not to be trusted. Why is the Third Legio the most practical to be sent to the north? The Consular Legio IV is already in Italia, they are closer. Let the Legio III Campania sail back to Italia and march southwest to Rhegion. We've enough man power to hold off the Carthaginians, especially should the people of Messana welcome us as their protectors. It is nonsensical to follow Caius Aurelius' decision."

"Do you refer to those vile brigands who slaughtered all of Messana's original inhabitants and took the city for their own, Tiberivs Clavdivs? Although, I suppose they ARE your kind of people!" jeered an anonymous senator from within the crowd.

Cotta laughed

Not to be trusted? Because I don't agree with you? Be realistic, Tiberius Claudius. You can't make these senators turn against me just because your not always getting your way due to me not agreeing with you. Anyone can see through that.

And I have to agree with the Senator who shouted out just now. Would you really wish to ally yourself with vile criminals? These man aren't trustworthy. They acquired the city of Messana through bloodshed and trickery. Romans do not ally with scum like that. They're just as likely to stab us in the back.

And who else is there? The Syracusians? Bah! What would they have to gain with an alliance with Roma? True, they have fought with Carthage before, but we are a dangerous third part to them. Whose to say who they will side with.

Pvblivs speaks quietly for himself while shaking his head gently.

"This session is unendurable with all these false accusations..."

Pvblivs stands up and looks at Cnaevs.

"When have I ever commented on how Legio IV would fare in Sicilia? Please do not presume my stance on something before I have even gotten a chance to speak for myself of the matter.

However, I think you seriously underestimate the Carthaginians. Your men have only fought one battle against some petty bandits, and though I do not wish to diminish what they actually did, they are still green troops, and you have to take that into consideration. What makes you think it would be easy to defeat the Carthaginians? They aren't weak, what with their mercenaries and elephants, so don't take claim victory in a battle you have neither won, nor even persuaded the senate should happen!

Before you misrepresent my words again, I am not saying the senate shouldn't allow Legio IV to enter Sicilia, not at all. I do think it would be foolish for any of our legions to enter there before proper defence has been established in the north, however, and when we do enter Sicilia - for at some point we must - then we should not enter it with freshly raised troops thinking we're going to an easy fight. "Pride comes before fall", as they say, and many a general have lost only because he didn't take proper precautions against the enemy he thought to be inferior. Don't make the same mistake they did.

Also", Pvblivs turned to Tiberius, "Legio I is not to be garrisoned in Massalia, that is not what the edict says, nor do I think the Massalians would allow it. It calls for us to march beyond Massalia and take Tolosa, in the province of Volcallra and defend them there. You may just have misspoke, but I think it's important to be completely sure everyone's in the clear of what has been put forth, especially since we all have responsibility in voting for - or against - them."

We seem to all be forgetting the most important issue. How are we to combat the Carthaginians' undeniable superiorty in naval power?

A strong navy unfortunately is even more expensive than a legion. We really have to think about economic supply before we think about deploying warships. Not to forget our lack of experienced admirals..

Without any form of navy, how can we even discuss invading Sicilia? We would be completely outmatched. It would be a repeat of the Peloponnesian War, except Athens, or in this case Carthage, would have a much greater land power and possible allies than Athens ever had. A stalemate would be the best we could possibly hope for.

"To the anonymous coward, supported by Cauius Aurelius, I say that 'Right, as the world goes, is only in quesition between equals in power; while the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must.' " Gentlemen, we are at war, a war we did not ask for. For those of you who have fought, you know that war is unforgiving and often requires doing unsavory things or dealing with unsavory people. I say that this is one of those times that we must get dirty and deal with the inhabitants of Messana to help fight our mutual enemy. Let the Legio III Campania and Consular Legio IV Roma do just that. The new legio, when it is created, can come to defend the northern border.

"As far as a navy is concerned, we absolutely will need one in the future; but I propose that we use small fishing vessels to ferry the forces by cover of darkness onto Sicilia. We won't need an extended fleet to transport any supplies and we won't run the risk of pirates smashing our volunteers. The entire maneuvers would be completed before anyone knew they had begun, with those who supplied the vessels risking nothing."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The map allows us to walk there so we don't really need a navy to get there. IRL the crossing is only 6 miles and easily doable in a single night

Turning to Publius Atilius, "Thank you, good friend. I was not as aware of the suggested plan of battle as I had thought. I still support the decision to send the Legio I out from Massalia to aid our allies against the Carthaginians in southern Gaul."

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'Right, as the world goes, is only in quesition between equals in power; while the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must.'

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"Said the Athenians 6 months before they invaded Sicily...and we all know what happened to them!

A very grave statement to make just before Roman soldiers set out to do the same..."

Crossing to Sicilia is not the issue, Tiberius Claudius. How can we fight an enemy properly when they can move anywhere on water faster than we can on land? What would the main objective of the campaign in Sicilia be? Taking Lilybraem? How do you propose we do that? We cannot starve them out; they can effortlessly resupply themselves with food and men from their port unchallenged, while Roman soldiers, far from home and any help, stuggle and die in the field. Our coast will be ravaged and villages and towns pillaged by Punic fleets, just as the Illyrian Pirates did on our eastern coast. The people would denounce this war, and then where would we be?

Unfortunately, we have neither the skills nor the funds to construct a navy able to deal with this threat. I don't have many answers, but I can safely say that invading Sicilia is either going to be an unlikely victory, or a victory at such a high cost we may not recover.

(OOC: Although factors like this cannot be represented in the game, we must do them here for roleplay reasons. I don't really see how Lilybraem or Syracuse would have to worry too much when we have no navy whatsoever. They could endlessy resupply and land troops behind us to cut off our supply lines, which would defeat any land based army we sent. An impossible to win situation, really. We're better off stopping them invading Italia, while our main attack happens in Iberia.)

I say we scour the beaches for downed Carthaginian ships and attempt to replicate them.

(Please, please get the historical reference.)

Tiberius rubs his hand down his face in frustration, he doesn't know how to make what has already been said any more simple. He takes a deep breath and tries again,

"Caius Aurelius, the objective is not to necessarily conquer anything in Sicilia. As I said before at the beginning of this argument, the maneuver would be a "feint" - any teenager beginning proper military schooling knows the definition of the word. We would send the armies forth to draw attention away from the north, alleviating the situation in Gaul. With Carthage forced to fight on two fronts, it opens the opportunity for mistakes on their part. If we were to be so fortunate as to be able to annex Messana and its surrounding lands without a fight by offering those people protection from Carthage then we would have won quite a victory without shedding a drop of blood."

Tiberius paces as he speaks, accentuating his words with hand and arm movements, demonstrating the principles he is discussing.

"Should we be able to convince the city of Messana to ally with us and close the straights to Carthaginian shipping then they would be forced to go the long way around Sicilia to the west and add months to any journey into northern or middle Italia or to reinforce or resupply their armies in southern Gaul. Remember, the Syracusians are no friends of Carthago and would prefer if Carthaginian influence were removed from their area. If they will not directly ally with us at this time, they most certainly won't stand against us - for the time being. If our armies actually came into conflict with the limited forces already on Sicilia, we could certainly handle them and still have time and strength to strategically redeploy to Italia - or Messana - and rearm. It is nearly impossible that we could be surrounded or cut off from retreat as long as we don't stray too far inland, and remember that we are there as a distraction."

Pvblivs clears his throat.

"Gentlemen, Consul and honourable members of the Senate; I'd like to announce that I will be running for Consul of Finance for the next term."

Pvblivs bows.

Cotta sighs and looks wearily at Tiberius.

I see what you want to happen, Tiberius Claudius, but it's not plausible. One move from the Punic fleet, and the straits will be cut off. Messana or no Messana, our legion will not have access to enough supplies or shelter. They will be whitled down and destroyed. This cannot be allowed to happen. If we are to move against Sicilia, we should prepare this distraction of yours on our side of the straits only. Make it appear as if we are planning to cross. We would also be able to defend against any Punic attempt to cross the straits themselves.

Tiberius stops as he was about to speak and looks at Publius Atilius, clearly confused

"Publius Atilius, you seek a post - which I believe you would be excellent in - when you plan to lead your Legio against a determined enemy? While I don't doubt your vigor or your determination; but can it be so? I fear you would be torn assunder from the burdens. I admit that we have a shortage of capable senators at the moment, yet there must be another way?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For RP purposes, even though we don't have lots of players, shouldn't we limit the roles our avatars take to be more realistic. E.G. if you're CoF or CoL you would be in Roma and therefore not out with your legion fighting battles because of all the beuracratic work that would consume your time. Thoughts?

"Caius Aurelius, I do not believe that simply keeping troops on our side of the border will do anything to deter the Carthaginians. We have kept them on our side since the treaty was signed and look where we are now. There should be an incursion to draw their attention away. One small victory, or even simple field burning and pillaging of small towns will cause stories to spread and to grow. Before you know it, all of Carthago will think Sicilia itself is sinking into the sea while being overrun by Romans on their way to raze their capitol. If we cannot send an entire legion, then let us send one or two smaller, dedicated forces who will be better able to obtain their own supplies and keep themselves hidden more easily. These guerrillas will pester and harass the enemy, causing them to think we are more numerous than we are. If we ambush Carthaginian patrols we will leave their bodies in plain site to be found by all, hacked mercilessly to death.

"I volunteer to lead such men."