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Do we need to do something like, make the infantry stronger, or maybe make the Ottomans weaker. Make the strong troops very expensive. What do you think? What about the ships. Do you think we should have battles, with little ship markers, and break the line, or battle with line columns.
The tweaking of the units / armies will come latter I think. For now, we concentrate on releasing the campaign mod.
Concerning the ships, there is nothing we can do but to keep the mode of battle from the original game. Ships will be updated to reflect the time period but will work the same way.
LLB
Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I agree with De Moray here. Although there needs to be a buffer in that area of the map, which the Russians are at present all too easily exploiting, when the Ottomans are added I feel they should be comparitively weak in comparison to their European counterparts. Maybe a relatively strong unit or two (esp in the cavalry), but in the main, poor. That said, they do need to effectively fill the vacuum that currently exists in that area of the map, IMO.
LLB though is right. Its better that we concentrate on getting the thing out, then the tweaks come after.
I agree in general, but I don;t think the solution is to make the Ottoman units worse as such, but to make their good units much more expensive comparitivly
This will give the ottomans a decent army if they want it, but never in large numbers, effectively restricting them from becoming a huge power
Alternatvly, they can have a massive army of poor quality cheap troops which would fit history closer.
Either way, this would restrict the Ottomans from dominating the game.
Thankyou all for the feeback,
Dunno about you guys but I think this is building up a picture. Why don't we now think about a list of troop types for them and add comparions to units already in NTW and as needed MTW.
Then this leaves us with one last problem, periiod pictures of them so some bright spark can model them.
Derfel, I would agree with your second option, make em cheap, and let em build up large poorer armies. As for the Mamelukes perhaps they will need to be good.
Regards,
De Moray
The Ottoman Army
Infantry
-Sultan's Guard
-Janissary Regular troops.
-Nizam-I-Jedid Equivalent of Line infantry
-Sekhan Ranging from regular to militia quality
-Fellahin Militia
-Derbent Militia
-Raya Skirmishers
Notes: The Nizam-I-Jedid (New Order Army) were the result of the Sultan Selim's efforts to modernize, and Westernize, the army. The were good troops, but there were simply not enough of them to go round. Selim's reforms were further frustrated by the refusal of the Jannissaries to sit by and watch their power slip away. Not only did they effectively stop the modernisation, they ultimately removed Selim's head from his shoulders for his troubles. By this time the Jannissaries abilities had degraded somewhat and not all should be considered elite. The Sekhan infantry were semi-permanent troops raised by provincial governors and some were very good troops (easily the equal of the Jannisseries) while others were very, very bad. The Fellahin and Derbent troops should be thought of as an armed mob (much like hooligans really) as opposed to soldiers.
EDIT: All Infantry except the Raya Skirmishers and the Sultan's Guard should be Impetuous.
Cavalry
-Sultans Guard Cav. Elite - Medium, Lance
-Suvarileri Elite - Med, Lance
-Sipahi Regular - Med, Lance
-Mameluk Regular - Light
-Yoruk Militia, Light, Sk
-Djelli Regular, Light, Sk
-Arabic Militia, Light, Sk
Notes: Ottoman cavalry had a proud, if somewhat antiquated, battlefield heritage. Individually, they were superb horsemen and warriors, but their main limitation was the lack of discipline and cohesiveness in the charge. In Egypt the mameluks essentially ruled autonomously until finally brought to heel by Istanbul in 1811 in a particularly brutish campaign.
EDIT: All cavalry should be Impetuous
Artillery
-Topiji Heavy Foot Regular, 12 pdr equivalent
-Topiji Medium Foot Regular, 8 pdr
-Topiji Light Foot Regular, 6 pdr
-European Mercenary Artillery. Regular Medium, 8 pdr
Notes: The top-arbaleri gun wagons did not see service during this period. The Topiji also served as the Armys engineers. The Ottomans have no horse artillery.
I agree with De Moray again. Derfels second option seems much more historically correct to me, make 'em cheap and cheerful.
Good info Derf, Ottomans were never my strong point, as you know
That'll do nicely Derfel.
PICTURES anyone, not just close but the period ones plz.
De Moray
The Nazim Inf
The new infantry regiments wore a Greek cap (tarbuche) over a close fitting cap (tequi) with coat colours varying between regiments (light blue, dark blue, red and chesnut). Red leather boots and white belts and girdle. Cavalry had similar uniforms except one brigade had green instead of red dolmans. Boots were black and the girdle red. Artillery and engineer uniforms were the same as infantry with red coats.
More to come
De Moray http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif
Just found this of the French in Syria
http://www.napoleon.org/en/img/zooms.../436657_1.jpeg
Selim III of the Ottoman Empire
http://www.napoleon.org/en/img/zooms.../436659_1.jpeg
Special Units
Baronal Soldiers
Cheap soldiers conscripted by Barons, they are sent to the Prussian armies. Not that good, and easily break, should be used for skrimishes
British Mercinaries
Sent to Portugal, they are good, only avalible by the Portugese. Armed like regular line infantry, but cost more.
Foriegn Conscripts
Raised by local rulers, they are cheap units, used as skrimishers, and sometimes main battle units
Jaeger (russians)
Special units used by the Russians to protect Unicorns. Lightly armed, they can be used as skrimishers as well.
For further units go to the Napoleonic Crusade at the com. In the OT and Mod they have lists of units.
Greetings Hasbural,
Not to sure what you mean in your post. Most troops in all the nations were raised as conscripts. The Portugese Military was for the better part of the wars under British control, the new Portugese army had numbers of British Officers to assist in it's transformation into a modern army.
Most of the units you refer to could be considered landwher (Prussian) or 2nd line irregular troops, these are in the game already.
The Russian Jager units were a main part of the army's regulars used at a 1:4 ratio with the line.
Hope this helps
De Moray
We already have Russian Jaeger units in the game, the Russian Light Infantry.
It would be nice to have the special Russian Artillery, the Unicorn though now that it is mentioned. And Jaeger were not used to guard artillery, they were the general light infantry of the Russian army.
Ok I just decidied to bring over three units from the NC.
Also what about the Austrian Jaeger Infantry.
Austrian Jagers, I would hope that at a later stage they would be added, the model used at the moment is a Hungarian Line infantryman pre 1812 after which most Austrian Inf adopted the shako in favour of the crested helm.
I think the idea is to get the mod out and ready, then tweek later.
De Moray
Thanks to all for the Ottoman army discussion. I think we have a good picture of the army.
now we need more picture (which is quite hard to find) and see which existing units could be used maybe...
Let's stick with Brother Derfel list...any picture of them?
Infantry
-Sultan's Guard
-Janissary Regular troops.
-Nizam-I-Jedid Equivalent of Line infantry
-Sekhan Ranging from regular to militia quality
-Fellahin Militia
-Derbent Militia
-Raya Skirmishers
-Sultans Guard Cav. Elite - Medium, Lance
-Suvarileri Elite - Med, Lance
-Sipahi Regular - Med, Lance
-Mameluk Regular - Light
-Yoruk Militia, Light, Sk
-Djelli Regular, Light, Sk
-Arabic Militia, Light, Sk
Artillery
-Topiji Heavy Foot Regular, 12 pdr equivalent
-Topiji Medium Foot Regular, 8 pdr
-Topiji Light Foot Regular, 6 pdr
-European Mercenary Artillery. Regular Medium, 8 pdr
LLB
This from preious page....Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
The Nizam Infantry
The new infantry regiments wore a Greek cap (tarbuche) over a close fitting cap (tequi) with coat colours varying between regiments (light blue, dark blue, red and chesnut). Red leather boots and white belts and girdle. Cavalry had similar uniforms except one brigade had green instead of red dolmans. Boots were black and the girdle red. Artillery and engineer uniforms were the same as infantry with red coats.
The webiste with these figures has many more such pictures but of course there's no colour. Colour may only matter to the Nizam units the rest would be just a mixture I would guess.
De Moray
Agreed, the Nizam, and possibly the Janissary infantry would be the only infantry that require a set uniform, the others would all be dressed in various tribal and civilian atire such as a baggy coat and breeches and maybe a fez or a turban.
As for cavalry, I am not too sure, most would be similar to the infantry, but the Malmeluke cavalry are certainly dressed differently, I will see what I can find picture wise.
What sort of time scale do we have, because if there is no hurry, I may order the Osprey title that deals with these then we would have access to better picture references.
Brother Derfel,
The new units for the Ottoman empire will not be included in the first release of the campaign mod since the mod will be out very soon and there is no time to do them so we have some time in front of us.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif LLB
http://www.thequartermaster.com/cata...ans/ott05b.jpg
Thats a pic of a Sekhan miniature. The colour of the clothes does not matter much, but that is the sort of atire they would ware. Remember these are semi profesional troops.
http://www.thequartermaster.com/cata...ans/ott27b.jpg
Topiji Artillery men. Again showing the range of clothing worn. I wil see if I can find examples of clours worn, but these would probably not be wearing a standard uniform.
http://www2.egenet.com.tr/mastersj/s...with-cirid.jpg
Sipahi cavalry man. Shown in typical colours warn. Again I think would not be uniformed.
If you have patience to trawl through the pics here:
http://www.garrison-clubs.org/clubs/...ttegallery.htm
There are loads of examples of painted wargaming figs of the Ottoman army.
I advice you to look, as there are too many to post the pics here. A useful site.
I would like to ask about, makeing new republic of sorts, such as the Confederacy of the Rhine, or Grand Duchy of Warsaw. Is it to be in seperate times or what. I would also like to know about the Portugese and the Spanish. Even a minor country of sorts, they created a problem for Napoleon, and I would like to know how they are to simulated.
I'm not sure I compltely understand what you are getting at, if you mean the Problems that Napoleon faced when he controlled spain, from the Spanish people themselves, then that will simply be 'simulated' by the loyalty of the provinces and how the French or indeed any player would deal with keeping a province happy. The only reason that Spain was so hostile to Napoleon was that he had not bothered to listen to their wants, or even understand their culture and religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
When Ferdinand, the son of the current king in Spain went to Napoleon for help to rid Spain of the power of the Queen's favourite (Can't quite recall his name, Godin or something) Napoleon sent Murat in with an army. Insted of instating Ferdinand as the new King, Napoleon rather foolishly chose his own brother. This was a mistake as Ferdinand, bye ridding Spain of Godin(?), who was immensly unpopular, was seen as something of a people's champion. Revolts were bloodly crushed by Murat, thus starting the Spanish peoples hatred for the French who had betrayed them, their closest allies up to that point.
Now in the game this would be represented abstractly by a nation that conquered Spain, or indeed any province and instated an unpopular governer, i.e one with a bad vice that cause -% to happiness or one with very little dread. The newly conquered province would then become hostile, forcing the ruling player to leave more troops in that province, just as Napoleon had to move much of his Grand Army from Germany into Spain to deal with the Guirillos.
So realy there is no need for any changes in this mod to cover these circumstances as the MTW engine already handles it.
And BTW, Spain was hardly a 'minor' nation at the time (Just so any Spanish members of the baord don;t get a little angry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif )
Actually what i meant is that what about Spanish armies, I mean like Spanish Guerillas along with any other units, if there are to be more. I also didn't mean to sound rude to the Spainish.
Ah right, i get you now.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
As far as i am aware there will be no Spanish specific units in the first release of the mod. This however will probably (no promises here) change with later editions of the mod depending on wether LK gets sick to death of making Napolonic units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif
Personaly I am a big fan of the Spanish army (Crap in every possible way. Well the artillery wasn't too bad). They do have an apeal for me though as a very challenging Nation to play. I would love to see specific Spanish units (Perhaps a specific Ship unit as the Spanish had the largest ship on the waves at this time). Guerillas though i would like to see as a rebel only unit, as many bands were very independant, and indeed little more than bandits. I think having to bride them to use them would be much more historicaly accurate, or maybe have them in loyalist rebellions as well.
I will not give an estimate in days, The full campaign is in the next phase of beta testing at the moment. And all I can say about the official release date is it will be soon. Thank you for your continued patience and support . LOSQuote:
Originally Posted by [b
got a sort of website for wargamers, has uniforms for Austrians, Prussians and others http://napnuts.tripod.com/uniforms.htm
Its got British and other uniforms as well.
Murat,
There is only so much that can be done with the mod at this time. While the mod has developed into at total conversion of the game there are still limitations. In essence the game works the same as before, but with different units, buildings, map peices and start postions. Several other bits of artwork have been added to give the game a more Napoleonic feel. Like so many things i life you can't always get what you want, and i'm sure the lordz are working as best they can with what they have.
Suggestion for you, wait and see, i'm sure you'll be delighted with the outcome.
I think that the Lordz have all the information they need at this time.
Regards,
De Moray
Hey you guys (besides LoS and LK) the Lordz have updated thier site with more links.