Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

I stand with Servius Aemilius, against Motion 10.18. I understand the desire to aid the Republic in any way possible, but it does not serve the Roman people to open the door to tyrrany. Much good could come from such a Motion, but much evil as well. In my own case, I have a certain Gallic slave woman that I took for myself when I enslaved Gergovia many years ago. I have grown particularly fond of her and her... services... which she does so well that I often forget she is a Gaul. It would be a grave crime to steal this property away from me and her transfer to another would be of absolutely no benefit to the Republic, yet that is exactly what this motion would allow. Under Motion 10.18, a Consul could take my slave woman for himself simply because he likes the way she looks, and I would be brought before a court if I opposed him! It was under circumstances very similar to this that the reign of Tarquinius Superbus was ended.

It is true that a good Consul would not stoop to such low levels, but we should not depend on the propriety of future leaders whose names we do not yet even know. Power has a tendency to change some men. I do not believe it is in the Republic's interests to allow those holding office the means with which to abuse their authority, should they choose to do so.

Then I would ask senator Eclectic to retract Motion 10.18.

I second Motion 10.17, and thank you Numerius Aureolus for recomending me as a Legion Commander. I will send Publius Pansa Verginius a letter reminding him of it.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Third, I noticed that an Upper House Senator, Titus Vatinius, has a Praetorian army on the frontline with Thrace, north of Delmatia. I would suggest that the new Lower House Senator, Quintus Libo, be sent to replace him immediately. We do not want a repeat of the shame of Massilia ford. It might also be wise to move this force closer to Ratiaria in case Arapeithes does threaten there.

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[TITUS VATINIUS]

Senators. Perhaps I am not the best debater nor the most frequent visitor of this ... institution. Messengers keep me posted on whatever is discussed over here and I believe it allows me to express my vote in a correct way. Personally I prefer to stay close to my men, -ha!- I prefer barracks over nice heated villas, but recently one of my messengers told me about a young senator who expressed his doubts of me being capable of leading a Praetorian army to defend a ford against Thrace. It is obvious that I will not accept such accusations.

Senator Aureolus, I have much respect for everything you have already realised during your short military career until now. I even see some of Quintus' spirit in your well-expressed debates, and for what I could hear of the recent battles you fought, it seems that you also possess the same genius in command as my late father-in-law. As you seem to have a more than common knowledge of our Republic's recent history, you should also remember that I served many years under Quintus' command. He surely was a great general, and I have learned much of him.
That's why I was bloody enraged when I read the senate scrolls and noticed that you publicly questionned my ability to command the Praetorian army who should defend the ford against any intrusions to our lands by the lowly Thracians. You should realise that I did not earn my command stars for nothing. I know how to command an army. Comparing me with the disgraced Publius Laevinius makes things only worse.

I am old enough not to start making childish claims for personal duels to be fought to regain honours and blah blah blah, but I still demand that you withdraw this insult.

OOC: I completely agree that Titus Vatinius should not command the Praetorian Army. I would be ashamed should the same thing happen to my avatar as what happened to Publius L. Of course I could try to fight the battle myself, but I am not sure if the result should be better than any autocalc result. :wink2:

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Legate Vatinius, you have an ironfist inside a velvet glove! That was quite the most devastating sucker punch I have experienced! Listening to your kind opening words, I almost fell off my seat when you turned to anger.

I unreservedly apologise for the offence I have given you. I sought only to refer to the convention that Upper House Senators not be given field commands, not to question your fine martial abilities.

And what is more, in view of the fighting spirit shown here, I retract my recommendation that you be withdrawn from your current posting.

I only wish you could be persuaded to step down into the Lower House so that the next time we sparr, it is side by side on the field against Rome's enemies.

[ooc: Please stay and fight any battles! I suspect the Consuls need some Lower House generals who might not spearhead offensives but could hold quiet sectors of the line and be called upon in emergencies.]

[TITUS VATINIUS]

Tribune Aureolus: it is clear that you are an incredibly wise man. Surely it was the inexperience and the impulsiveness of a young, promising military man that made you say those stupid things. I consider this case closed.

Now, I should send one of my servant to today's slave market around the corner as I need a new messenger. Something mysterious happened to the previous one when I read about your revolting speech, tribune Aureolus.

Good to hear your voice in the senate once more, Titus Vatinius, it has been too long :2thumbsup:

*There is a clear sound of disgust from senator Servius and a very angry charge to his words.*

So now the three 'precise' locations where the churigeons are most needed are being dictated as well? I do not agree with any of the conflicts going on in the dictated locations. This motion 10.17 is starting to feel like just as much of a bad idea as 10.18. I do not agree with this, no, I do not agree with this garbage at all.

I hereby withdraw support for 10.17, and I adamantly refuse to send my churigeon off to the front unless he remains my ancillary, in my legion. Senate motion be damned, I will not let this senate control the movement of my personal servants.

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Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

Good to hear your voice in the senate once more, Titus Vatinius, it has been too long :2thumbsup:

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[TITUS VATINIUS]

Lucius Aemilius, good to see you again too! I am most pleased with the way you pushed back the Gauls behind the Alps, something that should have been the very first thing our Senate should have authorised. Anyway, it's great to see a man like you making such a career in the Roman politics and military. My vote was surely well casted.

Now, let me have a look at the engravings you brought. Even though I was always informed on the Senate debates when I was off, I think I don't know the exact size of our glorious empire in its current state.

Er, Senator Vatinius! Welcome back! ...yeah...

Pay no attention to the fact that I called you "a useless weak-minded fool who shuts himself away for a week at the smallest sign of bad luck, and who is utterly dominated by his ignorant, sickly wife at every point in his life. I could also say that he is a foul-mouthed idiot who molests cats for fun" in front of your son. Uh, I was... just expressing my aggrivation at the current... war... situation?

*runs out of the Senate*

I will speak briefly on the issue of chirurgeons. According to the constitution, the First Consul is allowed to assign chirurgeons wherever he wishes. This I interpret to mean that you cannot own a chirurgeon, but that chirurgeons are assigned to you by the Republic. We are, therefore, constiutionally obliged to ignore the ravings of Servius Aemilius.

I am willing to withdraw my support of Motion 10.17, if Lucius Aemilius makes an informal promise to do what he can to transfer chirurgeons to the front lines. Those men should not sit in Rome while good Romans bleed to death in the fields.

[TITUS VATINIUS]

:supressing his anger: Young Aemilius, you confuse me with my -the Gods must really hate me!- son. If you would have used your tiny brain you would have known that I am far from being a weak-minded fool, leave alone that I would be dominated by my *spits* dearest Marcella! You still have plenty of lessons to learn!

:murmurs: Can't deny that molesting cats is fun though.

Off to my army I go, as there is nothing but cheap words to be found here.

Titus Vatinius, good to see you here. I'm counting on you to keep the Thracians back, don't let me down.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: There are now less than 24 hours for the proposing of further motions and seconding of existing ones. Voting will commence at 6pm Saturday UK time.

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Originally Posted by Tricky Lady

My vote was surely well casted.

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Nice to be appreciated for a change. These senators, always moaning about the smallest details...errr...*suddenly realises he's IN the senate*...errr...anyway, it's been great ! Gotta go, pan on the fire, Thracians to kill !

*runs off after Marcellus*

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

I am willing to withdraw my support of Motion 10.17, if Lucius Aemilius makes an informal promise to do what he can to transfer chirurgeons to the front lines. Those men should not sit in Rome while good Romans bleed to death in the fields.

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*leans back in the senate door*
Oh yes, about those chirurgeons, I'll look into it, see who's available and sort it out.

*Next day*

Senators,

There is one matter I have overlooked in these hectic days, and that is the naming of the revived Legio VI. Several good names have already be submitted.
I you know better, or more appropriate ones, please let them be known. A poll wil be started in which the senators can vote on the new name of the Legio VI, along with the senate motions.

Names already submitted are as follows :

Legio VI Phoenix (or its correct Latin translation - anyone ?)

Legio VI The Red Shirts (to boldly go...:laugh4:)

Legio VI Immortalis

Legio VI Macedonica Excrabile

Legio VI Graecia Excrabile

Excrabile is Latin for cursed
Macedonica and Graecia are Macedonian and Greek.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, your offer of your army's chirurgeon shames me. Your army, of all our armies, has most need of one. It has continually battled Thracians across the wilderness and its units are woefully under-strength. It lacks even a Tribune to deputise for you. Your bravery and your skill in battle are undisputed, First Consul, but please, for the sake of your veterans, retain their chirurgeon.

I apologise if my motion has seemed to usurp the proper function of a Consul. In its defence, I will say only this: in your first term as First Consul, Rome suffered 1339 casualties. I estimate that without chirurgeons in any armies, that would have led to 1138 deaths; with chirurgeons in all armies, there would have been only 737. The difference is about the size of the army that General Coruncanius currently commands at the Ratiaria ford.

But I will speak no more of chirurgeons - let the Senate decide the matter.

On the naming of Legio VI, I believe that is at the First Consul's discretion although it could be put to a vote as a motion. Personally, I believe "Legio VI Phoenix" is a most apt name. In my opinion as Pontifex Maximus, the Legion has earned neither a curse nor immortality, but it is certainly reborn.

[ooc: Eng. phoenix=phoenix or phoenicis in Latin]

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Greetings from Thessalonica, senators. Oh, the place is a shambles at the moment, I have to try and quell the unrest and find more men willing to keep order at every moment, but I received news of the rebirth of Legio VI and would like to offer my support of naming the legion Phoenicis. I do believe it is a suiting name, and it has a nice sound to it as well. I have to raise more levy troops, hire mercenaries, do whatever is necessary and get out of this place soon and onto the field, with the fighting men of Rome, where I belong. Ah, I must be off now. Another Greek demonstration against Roman rule is starting up in the streets, I must disband it immediately!

I too support the name Legio VI Phoenix.

(OOC: A quick google search shows that the correct latin spelling for phoenix is "phoenix." Go figure.)

Motion 10.18, as written is flawed! This was never my intent! I fear for a Republic where the Consuls' daft attachments are unloaded unto the representatives! Neigh, fine People! I reword Motion 10.18 as follows:

Motion 10.18 To ammend the constitution to allow acting Consuls to procure any such militarily relevant ancillaries as necessary for his campaign from other senators. These ancillaries must provide campaign or battle assistance only. Managerial and influential assistants do not fall within the perview of this motion. FURTHERMORE, the Consul is NOT empowered to unload existing ancillaries to accept new ancillaries.

How stand you? Does this not serve the greater glory of Rome! Would you not release your advisors to serve for the betterment of the people and the expansion of the people's lands?!?!?

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The list of all motions and their seconders has been updated. Senators should speak out if they notice any any errors or omissions. Voting will commence in seven and a half hours time.

I'm still against it. Motion 10.18 remains too vague and unspecific. For example, the 'veteran centurion' is a military ancilliary, but it also a cool RP-tool to have. The same goes for ''military tribune', 'heroic saviour', etc...
I could use this motion as I see fit, by declaring the 'military' value of an ancilliary.

I might support a revised motion that list all the ancilliaries involved by name.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senators, as Pontifex Maximus, I have had a fitiful night communing with the augurs. I have seen repeated visions of what may come to pass if we should fail in our duty.

I have seen terrible things: our people dying of disease, settlements beseiged and lost, myself drowning at sea. I have seen the heads of the brave Legate Vatininus and Praetor Coruncanius hanging outside the tent of Arapaithes the Bloody-handed.

But, Senators, there is hope too in what the seers foretell. Factions we expect to become enemies may yet remain good neighbours. Moreover, we may find powerful allies willing to share their knowledge of the world.

I pray that the gods grant pro-Consul Publius Pansa the strength to avoid the perils the augurs have foreseen and seize the opportunities.

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Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

I'm still against it. Motion 10.18 remains too vague and unspecific. For example, the 'veteran centurion' is a military ancilliary, but it also a cool RP-tool to have. The same goes for ''military tribune', 'heroic saviour', etc...
I could use this motion as I see fit, by declaring the 'military' value of an ancilliary.

I might support a revised motion that list all the ancilliaries involved by name.

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Is that right? So you stand for YOURSELF. You would abandon the cause of Rome for your own selfish designs?

Remember, all those seek it may one day become Consul, and thus all can benefit from this.

For now, you blatantly stand against the betterment of Rome. Nothing but good can come of this and their exists little abuse that could come about in its current form. I have already addressed many of the concerns of the detracters.

Motion 10.18 is quite clear, however I will consider an amendment if another Senator seeks to co-sponsor and the amendment fits the spirit of 10.18.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: This session of Senate is now closed for the proposing and seconding of motions. Voting is open for one day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eclectic

Is that right? So you stand for YOURSELF. You would abandon the cause of Rome for your own selfish designs?

Remember, all those seek it may one day become Consul, and thus all can benefit from this.

For now, you blatantly stand against the betterment of Rome. Nothing but good can come of this and their exists little abuse that could come about in its current form. I have already addressed many of the concerns of the detracters.

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You need not have fear on my my concern. Did I not offer my chirurgeon to Numerius Aureolus for free ? Yet one day a less scruprulous senator may wield the power of first consul. This is why I object to this motion.

As I do not seem to be clever enough to actually create a poll, I will give Legio VI the honorif Phoenix by acclamation. Henceforth, they shall be known as the Legio VI Phoenix.

SENATE SPEAKER: The votes have been counted but again we appear to be in the unhappy state of authorising contradictory motions.

Motion 10.2 has been passed, requiring the conquest of Byzantium, as has motion 10.6, ruling out the conquest of Greek settlements not on our borders. As Byzantium is a Greek settlement currently not on our borders, there is a clear contradiction.

When such a contradiction occurred earlier, it was decided that unless later motions explicitly stated "This motion invalidates motion X", then an earlier motion X took precedence. And it will be recalled that later and earlier could simply refer to the order in which they were tabled. Hence, I interpret the current situation as being that motion 10.2, as the earlier motion, takes precedence over 10.6. Thus, the Senate mandates the conquest of Byzantium. However, the circle may be squared if events change and Byzantium comes to border our territory before we are in a position to take it.

Senators have also passed a motion 10.8 ruling out conquests unless authorised by previous legislation on establishing a frontier bounded by the Danube. I do not interpret this as ruling out conquest of Byzantium, as Byzantium lies south of the proposed Danube frontier and would be a natural part of a Republic bounded by that river. However, in the event of their being a contradiction, motion 10.2 would still take precedence being the earlier motion.

I apologise for not anticipating this possible confusion and requesting that the rider "This motion invalidates 10.2" be inserted into 10.6. I had thought the contradiction between motions 10.2 and 10.6 would be apparent to the voters and hence only one would pass.

What is the tiebreaker? Motion 10.4 is listed as failed with 24 (influence-biased) votes for each side. It has 7-6 non-biased votes in favor of 'yes'.