The Magnaura

*slightly hotly at being adressed by his first name by a lower ranking senetor who isn't a personal friend*

As I'm sure some of the more experienced members of the order can tell you *Stavros*, getting a newly won settlement off the ground takes work, I was told it was taken and sacked, heard a terrible rumour and decided that I could find my answers here or in Iconium itself, Constantinople is much quicker to get to thanks to some of the sea traders I've met whilst looking for a suitable sight for a port.

On my way in, I was informed of the settlements true, much worse fate.

Ioannis Komnenos storms into the Magnaura.

Strator Kantakouzinos, while I respect the right of you to express your opinions, I am shocked at your callous disregard for Roman law and your indifference to the slaughter of a city where many Romans lived. If you do not change your tone in the future, I shall be forced to absolve you of your oath of fealty to me.

As for Antypatos Machonios, I am utterly disgusted at the man. The breaking of Roman law is bad enough, but the slaughter of innocents is shocking. We are not Franks, who live for killing. We are Romans, guardians of civilisation. I second my father's demand that he show himself and explain his actions.

Ioannis leaves the Magnuara.

Although shock and outraged are absolutely needed at a time like this, I think we must know ask how we are to deal with Hypatios Machonios. If the atrocities we are hearing are indeed true, then prudent action is needed, for he has committed criminal actions of the highest degree against the empire and its citizens.

Who shall be given the responsibility of carrying out a sentence, whatever that may be, against him? Who shall decide what his punishment will be?

We have gained too much ground as our restoration of Byzantium continues to let some madman destroy our unity. I think we need a efficient system to put to trial those who defy the will of the senate.

Apionnas stands and waits until there is a long enough pause in discussions to begin in a quiet tone.

My Lords,

I find some of the outraged remarks here to be naive to say the least. War is brutal and it is a place for brutal actions and brutal men. Some rulers select their generals with this trait solely in mind.

Having said that, the actions of the Strator in question are in line with what I have seen and expect to see in war. The killing of innocents is tragic, but it's something that has occurred in the past and will occur in the future. The simple fact is, he broke Imperial law and for that reason alone he must be presented here for disciplinary measures.

Bowing to the Basileus the young officer continues:

I am more than willing to act as the prosecutor in this matter on behalf of the Basileus. As an unaligned senator I believe I am in a position to discharge this service to the Magnaura as a whole.

Pausing again Apionnas now walks out from behind the chamber bench and into the inner circle.

While disipline needs to be enforced here, the damage has already been done. Our inward focus on this matter is tragically wrong if we are to truly realise the impact of this action.

The Patriarch called a Crusade, one that was based on arguably our moral high ground.

That high ground in now a valley from which we can be ambushed from all sides!! Cairo, Baghdad, Rome, these cities and their rulers are entirely aware of what has happen in Iconium.

The folly of our Patriarch is now clear to see. It was taught to me that a Just War is one that has the support and backing of its ruler. Given how this Empire is structured, I do not recall our Clergymen coming here to this chamber and making their case for calling a Crusade. Quite the contrary, our clergy had the audacity to simply declare this Holy War without one word being spoken in our direction.

We are a laughing stock my lords. I have it on good authority that the Caliph himself finds our actions highly amusing in light of recent events, more importantly, his generals and moderate followers have had their resolved steeled by what has occurred in Iconium. A week ago we had momentum, NOW we have a nation and it's people prepared to fight until the very end to protect themselves from an unjust war being fought by an Empire who preaches one thing and does another.

Slamming a fist on a bench Apionnas continues.

And don't for one second believe that anyone in this chamber can distance himself from the actions of our fellow Senator. Here, internally, manoeuvre all you want my lords, but outside these wall, in our own cities and certainly beyond our own borders, THE DYE has been set.

We are what we are!! Keep this in mind when it comes to our future dealing with other nations. And certainly keep it in mind when we speak to each other about what each of us perceives as what is RIGHT or WRONG!

Hypatios' scribe stands

My Lord sends word that he is making all haste here and will arive shortly

(OOC:after I've walked my dog...)

Senator vringas, I must disagree with you... The taint on the Byzantine name with our neighbours can be washed away if we all stand to condemn the man who acted so atrociously...

If he is brought to justice and condemned, then our neighbours will surely reconsider... One cannot condemn an entire nation for the acts of a single madman, unless he gathers support from his brothers, as is threatening to happen in Egypt...

I think that an extraordinary tribunal should be appointed by our Basileos to judge the acts of Hypatos Machonios, its members chosen among the Senators.

Let all know that justice has supreme rule in Byzantine lands and abroad.

Hypatios enters the room calmly and coolly, as if nothing has happened.

Gentlemen, I understand news of my victory has traveled fast, though I have also been told that it has not been seen in a clear light. I expected to be congratulated for what I have done, did I not capture the capital of our enemies? Did I not slay the enemy Sultan? If doing deeds such as these is punishable in this nation then I am not so sure I want to belong to it, I should be rewarded!

As for the fate of the settlement, I felt it was necessary to deliver the infidel into God's hands. On the eve of the battle God sent me a dream and in that dream He commanded me to rid the city of non-believers and allow the evicted Romans to take up their lost lands, would you have me deny the wishes of God!? I swear now that not a single true Christian was so much as harmed during the capture, only those that refused to see the true light were sent to Him for judgment.

Now I understand I may have broken a law during the capture but I have my reasons for that as well. Was not the edict invented to direct or restrict the current Chancellor, to give all senators a say in how the Megas deals with matters of state? Yet know we pass edicts directing the personal choices that generals have always had, since the founding of Rome! And now I hear I am to be punished for doing what I think, even know, is better for the Empire? Is it not better to have one decisive battle, allowing loyal Roman citizens to inhabit our towns than to have Turks and Infidel living there, who will rise against us at any and all conceivable opportunities?

Compare that to what I have done, the enemy is weak, their capital lost, their Sultan dead, their whole Kingdom in disarray. If these people were kept alive they would flee to Turkish lands, breed or become Turkish warriors, causing more of our men to die when they need not! Even if I did break a law should it not be forgotten in return for the favours I have done to the Empire as a whole? Think what could happen if the Sultan still lived, and the Capital was still in Turkish lands, hundreds of Roman ladies would become widows when now they will not, hundreds of Roman children would be fatherless when now they will not! Our enemies fear me now, and so less will fight, less of our men will die, less of you will die.

You broke the law Senator Machonios.

Explain it away anyway you wish. I would expect discipline to be severe if I was you.

Inclining his head towards Methodios he continues.

Senator Tagaris, disagree as much as you see fit. That is your prerogative.

However, I hardly see how our punishment of Senator Machonios will suddenly have the moderate supporters of the Egyptian Caliph wonder just what their ruler is doing killing innocent Christians. We of course have now killed innocent Muslims in their thousands and at this very moment pursue a Holy Crusade against him for doing exactly what he has apparently done to us. I'm wondering what our response would be if a Jihad was to be called against Constantinople!!

Your reasoning is simple at best and does not address how we are now perceived outside this chamber.

Comes Apionnas Vringas is right. We do not only have to deal with...

Savvas stares at Hypatios in disbelief.

our... colleague...

But we will also have to worry about our standing amongst other nations. We know the truth, but our foes will bend and explain it as if it was the Emperor and the Magnaura who ordered these attrocities.

And on top of that, the last report of the Caesar tells us that the treasury is empty.

We have much to worry about.

Methodios stands up, glaring at Machonios.

I would have been first to celebrate you, had you claimed the city with no or few losses of lives on either side... War is grusesome, that I know at first hand but even so, that does not mean we must become beasts and conduct ourselves without reserve or mercy...

I'd like to remind our "colleague" that Iconium was still a Byzantine city, less than fourty years ago... (OOC : Manzikert dates back to 1071)... So most of those 6000 men and women you killed were subjected to our rule until then... Do you think they had a choice when the Turks invaded ? No, they had none... They bowed like the reed in the wind, if only to survive... And what kept them going was the hope that one day our Empire would recover to come and save them... And now, at the moment of their liberation, they are cast into the fires of Hell at the hands of the man they could have greeted as their saviour...

Or are you such a fool that you may mistake Turks for rabbits, breeding more than 6000 in a mere 40 years ?
The Turks dealt fairly with our former Emperor when they captured him, they dealt fairly with our people when they advanced in Anatolikon... And that is how we repay them...

I will not cry for the Sultan's life nor for any of his soldiers but I'll cry till the end of my days for the people that died in Iconium...


Leaving the benches, Methodios walks to the Asteri benches where Machonios is sitted. He plants himself in front of him and spits on the floor of the Magnaura at the feet of Machonios.

Here... Take this as your reward, Machonios...

Finally, staring dejectedly at Machonios, Methodios adds

And let me tell you what I think of your God-sent dream... These are delusions of a madman... Perhaps one day, God will send me a dream asking me of having your mother raped by a donkey... But will I bring a donkey to your mother's house ? I think not... Though it may bring down on me God's wrath... That is the saddest excuse for your crimes you could offer...

Lastly, your enemy do not fear you, they hate you... It will be pure blind luck if their religious leaders do not call for a Holy War against us, to eradicate us before we eradicate them for that is what you are doing... The Turks could have been brought into the Light, they could have learnt to live under our rule... If we continue with your policy of exterminating the cities we conquer, we will perhaps be masters of the known world, but it will be a sad and empty world...

Methodios walks back to his bench, not sparing one look towards Machonios.

Kantakouzinos addresses the senate:

"First i would like to apologise to my Caesar, for what i may have done here in Senate, your word is my law, but surely i was only defending my honour. Since when have righteous men have had to stand insults from others?"

"Second i agree with Apionnas Vringas and his sentiment. War is cruel and people get killed, those who want to wage limited war are in danger of being hypocrites. Once again, how it differs, killing one or killing a thousand? Hupatios has broken the law, but his crimes stop there, your moral uproar is uncalled for specially now that he has told you that he only killed Muslims. He would be sentenced according to our laws, but it should be also be counted for him that he conquered our enemies capital, killed their leader and drove their kingdom to chaos by that."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Methodios stands up, glaring at Machonios.

I would have been first to celebrate you, had you claimed the city with no or few losses of lives on either side... War is grusesome, that I know at first hand but even so, that does not mean we must become beasts and conduct ourselves without reserve or mercy...

I'd like to remind our "colleague" that Iconium was still a Byzantine city, less than fourty years ago... (OOC : Manzikert dates back to 1071)... So most of those 6000 men and women you killed were subjected to our rule until then... Do you think they had a choice when the Turks invaded ? No, they had none... They bowed like the reed in the wind, if only to survive... And what kept them going was the hope that one day our Empire would recover to come and save them... And now, at the moment of their liberation, they are cast into the fires of Hell at the hands of the man they could have greeted as their saviour...

Or are you such a fool that you may mistake Turks for rabbits, breeding more than 6000 in a mere 40 years ?
The Turks dealt fairly with our former Emperor when they captured him, they dealt fairly with our people when they advanced in Anatolikon... And that is how we repay them...

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If you would kindly check the records the Turks treated the city the same way I did when they captured it, the Romans living there either ran to nearby towns or villages or were killed. The population I killed were all Turks, moved in from other Turkish lands, if you could think beyond the end of your prick you would understand that there is more to life than "breeding". It was their capital, cities of that importance grow, and grow quickly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

I will not cry for the Sultan's life nor for any of his soldiers but I'll cry till the end of my days for the people that died in Iconium...


Leaving the benches, Methodios walks to the Asteri benches where Machonios is sitted. He plants himself in front of him and spits on the floor of the Magnaura at the feet of Machonios.

Here... Take this as your reward, Machonios...

Finally, staring dejectedly at Machonios, Methodios adds

And let me tell you what I think of your God-sent dream... These are delusions of a madman... Perhaps one day, God will send me a dream asking me of having your mother raped by a donkey... But will I bring a donkey to your mother's house ? I think not... Though it may bring down on me God's wrath... That is the saddest excuse for your crimes you could offer...

Lastly, your enemy do not fear you, they hate you... It will be pure blind luck if their religious leaders do not call for a Holy War against us, to eradicate us before we eradicate them for that is what you are doing... The Turks could have been brought into the Light, they could have learnt to live under our rule... If we continue with your policy of exterminating the cities we conquer, we will perhaps be masters of the known world, but it will be a sad and empty world...

Methodios walks back to his bench, not sparing one look towards Machonios.

---

Ah yes, you know all about the Turks don't you, spent so long in Turkey haven't you. Spent so long with the ex-Sultan discussing what things would excuse a Jihad haven't you. Go back north and run away from rebels again, you know nothing of this matter. Also it appears you may have had an accident when you came near me, I understand I may frighten some people but not enough for them to wet themselves surely?

As for the dream, who are we to question God's motives? I know it was from him, your opinion doesn't change that.

Looking at Kantakouzinos

So we should congratulate Machonios because he tells us he only killed Muslims... I'd like to know how Machonios can tell a Muslim at first glance from one of our citizen.

And what of Her Highness' testimony ? Frankly, if you ask me, I would put much more trust in her words than in those of a savage beast disguised as a Byzantine senator...

As for defending your honour, you'd be better advised to try and do it with words rather than at swordpoint...

Would you like to hear Zigavinos' version of the events? He was present at the battle and I have had no contact with him since, he is unbiased.

Hypatios Machonios, are you loyal to the Basileus? Do you respect this legislative body, the Magnaura, and all it stands for?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elite Ferret

As for the dream, who are we to question God's motives? I know it was from him, your opinion doesn't change that.

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I wish to know the Church's position on this dream, it could clear alot up.

Hearing Machonios' answer, Methodios emits a short laugh.

You better check you own records and you'll see how the Turks really dealt with Emperor Romanus and how they dealt with ouor prisoners of war... From what I know of the Turks, for I was in Turkey at Manzikert when you were still at your mother's breast (after she was raped by a donkey, this sotto voce) so I know of them at first hand...

Iconium was already a thriving city when we lost it to the Turks and that is why they elected to make it their capital, not the other way round... I maintain that most of its citizens were people of our blood and Christians to boot.

So leave my prick alone for it seems I can use it better than you can, as the birth of my daughter can bear testimony... And if can confuse spit with sperm than I should recommend you visit some of the seedier districts of this city, you might learn a thing or two...

So if it was truly a God-sent dream, who are we to oppose you, is that your reasoning, Machonios ? Why am I not struck down by the fires of Heaven right this instant for simply questioning your actions and the reasons behind them ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elite Ferret

Would you like to hear Zigavinos' version of the events? He was present at the battle and I have had no contact with him since, he is unbiased.

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You mean one of your own vassal is unbiased ? Surely, you can do better...

"Methodius, when you order a sack of city instead of exterminating it, will you feel like saint, like you are trying to be one here. People are killed when soldiers sack. Killed, mutilated, beaten and raped. Still though you see extermination as despicable act. Or should we end sacking cities also? So our soldiers would not get their fare share of loot. Im sure with this kind of hypocrite policies soon we should just give up fighting all together and become martyrs the bunch of us."

OOC: As an OOC matter EF the percentage of the population which was Christian makes it impossible for you not to have killed some of them. If every remaining man, woman, and child is a Christian (Which is certainly not what the game reflects as the percentage has not changed) then you still killed over 1500 Christians. This has already been pointed out above, so you might want to, err, revise your comments. :laugh4:

I'm no hypocrite...

Like I said, war is a gruesome affair and sometimes requires of us to do acts that probity would forbid.

If you ask me, I would very much have preferred to see Iconium sacked than exterminated. Out of every 100 citizens, 45 were formerly citizens of the Empire and good christians, though living under a foreign rule. That means that among the 6000 dead at Iconium lies about 2700 Christians.

I would have no qualms had Machonios sacked the city, seizing all Muslims properties and redistributing it to our citizens so that our treasury filled.

I would even have prevented our coffers being empty as stated by the Caesar and Megas, killing people prevents them from telling where they stashed their gold...

Killing for the sake of it or on some self-appointed divine mandate is pointless and dangerous...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

You mean one of your own vassal is unbiased ? Surely, you can do better...

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Did not Kosmas express the same opinion as many of you here? And no I was not calling it sperm, again you can only think of those things, I was referring to when you wet yourself.

You also do understand that I am only one year younger than you? If I was at my mothers teat then you were still unable to walk, let alone fight a battle. In fact you are 39 now, it is 1110, the battle of Manzikert was in 1071. That is the year you were born, are you claiming to have been born on the battlefield? Whatever the case, in my lifetime you have not been to Turkey and cannot know how the new Turkish Sultan thinks.

Savvas stands up and walks towards Hypatios.

It seems like I will have to repeat my question.

Dear Hypatios Machonios, are you loyal to the Basileus? Do you respect this legislative body, the Magnaura, and all it stands for?

Holding a rather sardonic gaze, Apionnas interrupts the back and forth of the discussion.

Senator Hypatios,

Rather than engaging in the semantics of what race, religion or creed of people were killed, what is your specific defence against the charge of disobeying a law created by this assembly?

(OOC : there is a time conundrum here... Methodios from how I considered it was 19 at the time of Manzikert... Sorry if I got Machonios age wrong, though... I saw him as one of the youngest Senators...)

I never said I knew how or what the Turkish Sultan thinks but I tried to warn about what measures the Sultan's religious advisors may preach against us... We killed this man's relative so I think I might not be too far from the truth when I say that those preachings won't be falling on deaf ears...

And anyway, I would prefer you to admit that you gave no quarters to the citizens of Iconium, whatever their origins and whatever the creed as all accounts show...

It would also be fine if you would answer the questions of Senators Ek Militou and Vringas...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andres

Savvas stands up and walks towards Hypatios.

It seems like I will have to repeat my question.

Dear Hypatios Machonios, are you loyal to the Basileus? Do you respect this legislative body, the Magnaura, and all it stands for?

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Yes, yes and yes. If I didn't then I wouldn't have assaulted Iconium in the first place. I had no personal wish to capture the place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Senator Hypatios,

Rather than engaging in the semantics of what race, religion or creed of people were killed, what is your specific defence against the charge of disobeying a law created by this assembly?

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I believe I have already made that clear:

"Now I understand I may have broken a law during the capture but I have my reasons for that as well. Was not the edict invented to direct or restrict the current Chancellor, to give all senators a say in how the Megas deals with matters of state? Yet know we pass edicts directing the personal choices that generals have always had, since the founding of Rome! And now I hear I am to be punished for doing what I think, even know, is better for the Empire? Is it not better to have one decisive battle, allowing loyal Roman citizens to inhabit our towns than to have Turks and Infidel living there, who will rise against us at any and all conceivable opportunities?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

I never said I knew how or what the Turkish Sultan thinks but I tried to warn about what measures the Sultan's religious advisors may preach against us... We killed this man's relative so I think I might not be too far from the truth when I say that those preachings won't be falling on deaf ears...

And anyway, I would prefer you to admit that you gave no quarters to the citizens of Iconium, whatever their origins and whatever the creed as all accounts show...

It would also be fine if you would answer the questions of Senators Ek Militou and Vringas...

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I gave my men orders to only kill Infidel, if they chose to kill men of their own faith that is not my fault, the orders I gave were clear.

I know my actions are very questionable, but I have done what I think is right and what God showed me to do. I shall await the opinions of Kalamateros and the Emperor and accept them without argument.

Hearing Machonios' renewed assessment of Edicts, Methodios rises.

So to you an Edict is just an obstacle to what the Megas Logothetes can or cannot do... That is not showing proper respect for the work of this assembly...

An Edict is a sacrosanct embodiment of the will of the people of this Empire, requested by the will of our Emperor to express themselves through our voices.

In an unselfish act and to prevent us from ever committing the errors of our past, the Basileos in his wisdom has seen fit to allow us, as representatives of the many provinces of the Empire, to choose the broad lines of how we deem the Empire should be led.

This is what you trampled, Machonios, not a simple law, but the will of the Empire embodied by this assembly.

Yes and I accept any punsihment for the breaking of that edict, I merely ask that the moral side be left out, that is irrelevant, and that the judge take into consideration what I have done to benefit the empire. Could someone also explain to me how my actions at Iconium hindered the empire in any way?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elite Ferret

And now I hear I am to be punished for doing what I think, even know, is better for the Empire?

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Tell me, Hypatios, if we could all at any given time just do what we "think" is best for the Empire, then what is the point of passing laws in the Magnaura?

I will go a step further: if all generals could simply do as they see fit, then we wouldn't need a Magnaura anymore, nor a Basileus, would we? Because, if every general can do what he wants, then why would we still have to respond to a higher authority?

Hypatios, if you say that a general can do what he "thinks" is best for the Empire, regardless of the laws imposed on him by the legislative body and the Basileus of said empire, then you are speaking words of treason!

It will take a long time for Iconium to grow to such a size as to be an asset to the Empire. Also any recruiting done there will hinder even more time the settlement will grow.

I would also like to hear what the Patriarch says of this matter.