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but EB has a reputation as a buggy or extremely incomplete game. It is not buggy, .74 has no CTD's that haven't been addressed and isn't that incomplete. Sure certain factions have peasants instead of unit cards and whatnot, but it really is more complete than people admitQuote:
Ten words. It's a BETA so of course it is not finished!
I did a search and couldn't find anything of substance, so I appologize if this is mentioned somewhere else (you guys can just direct me there if it is).
Will the Iberians be beefed up in .8? I know they're not the most finished faction in EB, but will they have some more intimidating units at some point before 1.0? I'm playing as Casse (VH/H), and I know the Romani, Germans, and even the mainland Celts with their naked crackheads are not to be taken lightly.
The Iberians, however, aren't nearly as hard to fight as I thought they would be - I'm fighting both them and the Romani, and the Romani are, by far, the foe deserving the most attention...I made war on the Iberians simply to pay for the campaign over in Italy, and historically speaking, somebody would have to have a lot of nerve/power to take on a united Iberia.
(Of course, I've only had one major feild battle with them so far, so I could be eating my words in a couple game years...)
They are working a lot more on Iberians now. They probably aren't going to be as ready as the other factions in 0.8, but they will be there by 1.0 if not by 0.9.
:2thumbsup:
So there is going to be a 0.9 as well :shocked:!? So what will happen in 0.9. Will there be even more new units/buildings/faction/governments/traits or will it just be a more advanced version of 0.8. Also will 0.9 be on M2TW or will EB move to BI with emergant factions and rebellions. A little bit like RTR will do in 7.0?Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
I can't answer your questions about 0.9, but EB 1.0 will be on R:TW 1.5. Though there may come an unofficial EB-for-BI mod, the official version will stick to R:TW vanilla. Whether there will ever be an EB for M2:TW is an open question, but perhaps Ortus Romani will take that place. The OR team has several EB members, and Khelvan has suggested that the teams work together (I don't know if this cooperation got of the ground, though). EB won't implement R:TR's emergent faction system because fleshing out another twenty faction will be too much work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthius Julius
That's not really the reason. The reason is that having emergent factions would require getting rid of any of the existing ones. The faction limit is still the same, RTR is not really adding any new ones. We could have for example Baktria as emerging faction, but that would rid the players opportunity to play Baktria themselves, if I understand the BI system correctly.Quote:
EB won't implement R:TR's emergent faction system because fleshing out another twenty faction will be too much work.
Not all counterfactions in R:TR 7.0 will be emergent ones. For example Aedui and Averni will be each others counterfaction, but players can play either. Baktria will be a full fledged faction with the Saka as counterfaction IIRC, while the Seleucids' counter will be the Seleucid rebels. The Seleucid rebels won't be playable, as they are emergent.Quote:
Originally Posted by eadingas
How does that work, exactly? I haven't really played BI. For example, the Seleucid rebels, are they a separate faction, do they take up a faction slot? I understand they do, but maybe I'm wrong here... What are "counterfactions" if they're not emergent ones?
A batchfile that comes together with the faction of your choice, decides which faction uses the extra faction slot. For example, as Pontus you get Pergamon. You can also play as these counterfactions, unless it's unfeasable like the Seleucid pretenders.
Oh yeah, the batch file. I forgot about that. So it's not really a BI-thing. That batch method could be used for any version of RTW, really...
:idea2: Well, you guys asked for suggestions and I've got them for you.:idea2:
1. Should Baktria maybe start as a protectorate of Arche Seleukia? From what I've read of the history and when they came to power this would make more sense and would prevent them from overrunning Seleukia early on in the game. This would also justify giving them another province like Alexandropolis or something.
2. Islands. Only about a quarter of the islands in EB can be landed on. I would really appreciate it, and it shouldn't be too hard, if you would all the islands, or at least the ones larger than 1 square landable. Not only is this simply a cool feature but it has tactical uses. First of all, having watchtoers on your islands would allow you to see enemy ships approaching and having forts on islands close to the shore would help as I've found out that the more garrisoned forts you have throughout a province, or series of close provinces, the fewer rebels appear. This could also result in cool and characterful events like the AI sacking a fort or tower you built on an Island, or two AI factions fighting over a seemingly insignificant island, like malta, and also to Eleutheroi appearing on islands to represent emergent cities/nations.
3. I know the EB team has enough to think about already, but is there a possibility of making new faction specific intro videos in the future? If not 0.8 then perhaps .9 or 1.0? If someone would be kind enough to hand me a script and tell me how to make videos for the factions then I would gladly do so. I'm not too bad with accents and I could send the EB team what I made for criticism.
4. OK, this is the long one, so for those of you with short attention spans you might just want to skip this.
THOUGHTS ABOUT THE ROMANS
Most of this you most likely already have but I have to mention all of it in case in guessing I missed something that you don't have. Some of this could be used for other factions most likely but that is up to the EB team. I was just reading a book on Roman culture and society and I had a few thoughts.
Roman Ethinicity.
I believe that this should be divided into several sections that all affect the traits of a character based on the levels and ethnicity of the Romans historically.
Class 1 - Freedperson
- Freeperson
Class 2 - citizen
- non-citizen
Class 3 - Honestiores
- Humiliores
Class 4 - Patrician
- Patrician Senatores
- Equite/Equestrian
- Equite/Equestrian Senatores
- Plebeian
- Plebeian Nobiles
Class 5 -Latinae
- Latinae Romani
- Etruscan
- Samnite
- Greek(colonial descendant)
- Lucanian
- Messapian
- Sicilian
- Gaul(Northern Italy)
- Possibly others once Rome expands outside of Italy
Class 1 represents the status of the person or their parents concering slavery. Obviously most every family member would be a freeperson but it was possible for freedpersons(ex-slaves) or their offspring to rise in Roman society naturally or by adoption.
Class 2 represents whether a character was a Roman citizen or not. As with class 1 most every character would be a citizen but bribed characters would be immediately stated to be non-citizens and could only change that to citizenship through their deeds or time spent in Italy
Class 3 states whether they were in the upper or lower end of society. this division is usually seen as the difference between plebs and patricians but a Plebeian Nobiles(Like the Neaveue Riche in France) would be Honestiores(high end) and a poor Patrician could conceivably drop into the ranking of Humiliores(Low end). This end represented how they were treated by other Romans and what kind of punishments they were given for their crimes. As punishments for Honestiores would be less severe they would be more likely to develop vices than humiliores. But a characters status in this category could be altered conceivably by wealth.
Class 4 is the one that EB currently uses but it could be expanded. From the bottom up there are your normal Plebeians, your rich plebeians(Plebeians Nobiles) who are almost as powerful as Patricians/Equestrians, your equites, your equites senatores who are old equites that are no longer eligible for military service and now run for senatorial office(could be a trait gained by equites), the regular patricians who held jobs like lawers and judges and priests, and the Patrician senatores who are patricians that run for senatorial office. Also included here could be magistrates and their individual positions but that is more a matter of election than birth and age like the rest of these.
Class 5 deals with actual ethnicity. Listed above are just some examples of the many ethnicities to be found in Italy alone. I have not listed all of the possible ethnicities as I don't know them all. The three that would be the most common would be Latinae - regular latin people who are not from Rome-, Latinae Romani - latin people from Rome or surrounding farms-, and etruscan -having an ancient bloodline from such a noble and legendary people is something to be admired, or mistrusted-.
Buildings
Vacation Villas: The estates of Roman patricians who occasionally visited but for the most part left the estates care to tenants. As the owner(s) can buy up large sums of land for farming this can greatly increase the amount of useable farmland. As the same lords would be rich enough to hire workers or buy slaves then the farm output would be ensured. Game effect that this building increases farming output.
War Bonds: The only way I could think of representing this would be if it was a building. In times of great financial stress during war (like the Punic wars) the government would find itself short on funds and would ask the rich patricians in the city if they would loan money t the state that was promised to be payed off in increments. Game effect - Increases income somehow(I'm not a modder).
TRAITS
Historian/poet/playwright: many famous generals documented their own achievements or were simply interested in writing.
Farmowner/landowner/landlord: More likely to get rich or be an unwilling campaigner but would also increase farm production in the city their in.
Clients/Patrons: The character can both be a patron(meaning he has followers that will support him in political elections) and be a client(he follows a patron). This can happen because a character can have Plebeian clients and yet can be the client of a more powerful Patron. Being a patron would increase your chances of being elected to offices but being a client would lower them. Being a patron would also increase happiness as he could and would offer protection, legally or otherwise to locals. This could also lead to traits like has/is a rude/kind patron
Pater/Paterfamilias: Any Roman character that marries immediately becomes a pater meaning that he is the father head of the household. This oppens up other traits. Paterfamilias is given to any Roman character that has children/grandchildren and does not have a living father. This means that he has absolute power over his section of the family. I don't know what the game effect of this would be.
Family Related: I don't know what exactly the game effect of these would be but the name of each trait knid of implies an effect. Kind father/ Loves his children/ Tyranical father/ Loves his wife/ Kind husband/ Wife beater/ Lost his father, mother/ lost his child, wife, sister, brother/ had a stepmother/ had a kind or tyranical father/ Is an ungrateful son/ has an ungrateful son/ loves, detestes his brother,sister/ Has a child(happiness)/ infertile wife (unhappiness)/ spoils children/ disciplines children
Guardian: This means the character is the financial guardian of a nephew or niece or other relative due to being given this responsibility by that relatives father or paterfamilias upon their death.
Holds Dinners: Goes along with wealthy, increases chance of vices.
Eats well, poorly: based on class, also affects morale. If general eats well when the troops are starving they will not be happy, but if the general eats rations like the men they will take courage in his presence.
Diseases/illness/dysentery/asthma/broken bones: I think you guys have most of these. Just listing them.
Distrusts doctors: Lowers recovery rate, decreases fertility
Education(good/bad) - Studied abroad: education is self explanatory but studied abroad could give him different bonuses depending on where he studied, especially military bonuses against the faction he studied with if he studied in another country.
Magistrates:priest/judges/diplomats/military officers/senators/lawers - each of these professions offers different bonuses to those who have them, like diplomat increasing a character's influence.
Holds public contract: Means they are 'less likely' to get a senatorial position as the senate didn't allow its members to hold public contracts. Also increases wealth and reduces building time/cost in a settlement.
Gambler:Excessive/Doesn't - vices virtues affected- could increase or decrease wealth depending on his luck.
Frequents the Baths/ Doesn't bathe: First increases laziness and vices, second decreases influence. A balance is best.
Napkin Tief: An amusing trait. I read that because guests had to bring their own napkins to a dinner party, some guests would sneakily remove their 'friend's' napkins while they weren't looking and profit greatly from the event.
ANCILLIARIES
Persistent Nurses and Paedagogues: Nurses and Paedagogues were the female and male tutors, playmates and guardians of Roman children. Persistent guardians continued to follow their old charges around after they had grown up to ensure that they lived a good moral life. Decreases vices.
Doctor: I think you have this one, but just incase.
Undertaker: Don't know what this one could do.
Gladiator: Rich men bought gladiators to fight in the arena. May increase vices but may also decrease personal security.
Midwife: Increases fertility
Tutors: School teacher/private tutor/Rhetor(professor of rhetoric) - affects childs education
Farm and ranch slaves/Household slaves/mill slaves/ mine and factory slaves: most of these would be limited to settled governers except maybe household slaves and the rest would increase production in some way or another. But could also increase the cruelty and harsheness of the governor due to him mistreating slaves.
Aediles: I think you have this already. I believe there were different functions for aediles like selling captive slaves, etc...
Herald and Pantomime: Herald increases influence, pantomime, I don't know, just fun really.
Playwright: Much like the historian and poet ancilliaries.
Client: In relation to the Patron/client trait discussed above.
Disgusting Practices
Although it seems apalling to us the Romans (and Ptolemies) often wed their daughters at horrifyingly young ages. EB might want to lower the 'maturity' age of girls a little bit more to reflect this. It seems strange, but There are inscriptions of child brides being only !!!!7!!!!! years old. Oh the horror.
:laugh4: Well, thats that for now, I have some pictures of military units to put up in a question about skins and successor elephants but I'm having trouble with posting pictures for now so I'll leave that for later.:dizzy2:
Factions can not start as a protectorate in 1.2 and I doubt its changed in the 1.5 patch would be nice though :( But on this same subject would if be possible to give the Baktrain faction leader the satrap title until Baktria breaks away from Seleukia?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanit
As for the rest sorry Tanit but I'm on a 10 min break at work so I will have to read the rest of your post later looks good though!
We had to make islands unreachable because AI had a tendency to land full stack armies there just for the fun of it.
Obviously to guard against the terrible "Sea Rebels". The AI is not stupid, its just TOO smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by eadingas
So, can we expect counterfactions in EB 1.0? ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by eadingas
@ Tanit
1. Bactria protectorate: I don't think this will work. A faction that becomes a protectorate will go docile, while Bactria should be actively trying to gain its independence.
2. Islands: again, it messes up the A.I.
3. Intro movies: sounds good. I wonder if the EB team is interested.
4. Roman ethnicities: I don't think this is really relevant: all family members are at least of the equestrian class, or else they wouldn't have leading positions in the administration. Nobility counted for a lot in those days.
Well, if the AI is improved in 1.5 then this would possibly occur less often. Also, there are a few islands still landable in the current game and the AI never lands on them. Besides, as long as they still had their fleet they could remove their armies from said islands when they wished, giving the player incentive to crush their fleet rather than ignore it. Perhaps at least the ones close to shore? :juggle2:Quote:
Originally Posted by eadingas
Well ahead of you on that one. They are in the works (planning stages at the moment and work won't start again until 0.8 gets out), I head up the group doing EB movies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
Foot
Hey guys I just noticed something (I hope u guys did already) that needs to be fixed.
-I had Thorakitai Hoplitai, Thorakitai, and Thureophoroi running around and fighting until all 3 were Exausted. Then I stopped moving them so they can take a break..... BUT after 12 game minutes the Thorakitai Hoplitai were FRESH, but the Thorakitai and Thureophoroi were TIRED. :dizzy2: wtf???
-Apparantly the Thorakitai and Thureophoroi take much longer that the other units to catch thier breath. Is this going to be fixed in .8???? Or is there a Specific Reason for this???
In vanilla RTW the House of Julii had a character called Amulus Julius who was 23. He married a 4 year old! Everybody who I know who knows the game was shocked at how disgusting and strange this was! Perhaps as well as implimeting this in game they could also implimeting family members coming of age younger. Perhaps at twelve or at latest fourteen? Roman men would historically come of age between this period. Also perhaps give women a wider variety of faces. For example on one family tree all women had either one face (under 16) or another face (over sixteen) this would add personality to the women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanit
Tanit they were brilliant suggestions. The EB team should demand you sign up for supplying such brilliant ideas which are possible to implement (unlike mine which change things which are hardcoded). I am almost jealous!
Great suggestions Tanit, I absolutely agree with you. Im all for a totally immersive gaming experience.
Following the Roman suggestions, what about some of these?
Traits:
Dictator --This man has been voted military Dictator of Rome. He will hold this office for 6 months (2 turns) All other magistrates imperiums have been suspended, and the Dictator commands the authority of two Consuls in one.
Magister Equitium--The Dictator's second in command and advisor, literally, "Master of Horse". The tradition that the Dictator would not ride a horse likely came from older, hopilte centered Roman warfare, and was partially suspended during the Second Punic War.
Former Dictator (influence bonus)
Former Magister Equitum (influence bonus)
Ancilliaries:
Lictor --Consuls were accompanied by 12 Lictors
Fasces --Axe men who accompanied the Consul, signifiying his power over life and death.
Named legion banners (I Legio II Legio, etc) or more detailed ( I Italica)
Buildings:
I totally agree with the pleasure villas, as these were more a status symbol than a vacation home in Roman politics.
Resources:
The Italian coast south of Rome should have oysters for Orata's famous oyster farms there. :2thumbsup:
Miscellaneous:
This is probably crazy and impossible in RTW, but it would be neat to have a researchable building in the MIC that was something along the lines of a professional Roman logistics network, and would slowly allow units to replenish their numbers when in garrison or stationed in forts over seasons, to account for 'new recuits' being sent to join the legions.
In addition, it would also be cool if there was attrition on units while in the field, moreso during winter campaigning, seiges, etc.
The coming of age for family members is hardcoded.
I expect that to be a joke, but can say, that I for one and I think others too will no way as hell start researching and collecting materials for 19-20 new factions with the depth and accuracy we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
@Zaknafien:
Romans only elected dictators in times of great peril and need. If the Republic is going along smoothly, why give one guy all executive command?
If you read what I said earlier...Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusader
So only in a crisis should a dictator turn up to boss everybody about like if somebody overuns the republic or the Parthians are a problem to conquer e.c.t.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthius Julius
And there was something I noticed when I first started playing vannila. The issue that spies can end up in a city but only tell you about what the garrison is like there, what buldings are there, the population and public order. This is an obvious thing that anybody could possibly do without even putting a spy in the settlement (although maybe it should be harder to find out about the garrison), but what a spy cannot do tell you anything useful. Perhaps a spy could end up getting himself in the goverment so that he can give you line of sight to the faction being spied and could also realese plans of miltary statragy and notify you of when they are going to attack you (or when they are not). Eventually they could (with enough subterferge) end up as a general of the enemy and lead enemy troops to take over the enemy's own faction. Of course this would need ALOT of subterferge, at least 6, to be able to do this well they should need at least 8 and to do this perfectly they would need 10. Of course this would be a risky buisness so if they were to get intrigrated into the goverment the chances of them being killed should go by at least 75%. This may have historically never happened, but it could have happened. For example the Adeiu never conqured the whole of Italy, but I did when I played them.
Also assasins should take a long time to kill their target. They would not just sneak past guards and stab the target in the neak. A clever killer would get themself trusted as the targets freind and then when the guards leave him alone with the target he takes the oppertunity to kill him. So perhaps the higher the subterferge the longer the killer will take to kill the target, but the chances of killing the target will be much higher. Also assasins should manage to kill the target and then get themselves killed as they escape.
Also a few trait suggestions for Romans:
Gladiator-This man is so obsessed with the blood and gore of the games that he even decides to take part, something that no true Roman patrician would ever do! Gladiator are simple criminals and common slaves! Of course his victims are either unarmed or have "toy" wepons. -4 Influence -2 to Personal Sercurity.
I got that idea from reading about Commodus been killed by the Pretorian Guard for his gladitorial and strange ways.
Distrust's his bodyguard-This man is terrified of being assasinated by his own bodyguard. So terrified that he tried to keep his guards away from him at all times. This foolish act opens him up for assasination from his true enemies. -2 to Personal Sercurity, -20% off the general's bodyguard size.
And a suggestion for an ancillary:
Power hungry bodyguard-This man has a power hungry bodyguard who would do almost anything to get this man's power for himself. -9 to Personal Sercurity and increases the chance of the general getting the "Distrusts his bodyguards" trait.
I hope that these ideas are possible to be implimented.
Thankyou
These ideas would be great if we were making our own game. Unfortunately, we're just doing a mod for a game somebody else did :)
These look fairly good but I don't know much about whether a general's bodyguard can be altered like that. Otherwise, great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthius Julius
I have just one point to make about that one. perhaps there could be an ancilliary that was called a power hungry bodyguard but IF the An. was as you described it then no self-respecting general would keep such a man, in fact such a man would be killed. Perhaps instead the Ancilliary would simply be power hungry in general and is actually leeching onto the general he is attached to trying to move up the political/military ladder. Basically the same effect but maybe only a -3 or -5 to personal security, not so drastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthius Julius
Spies and Assassins. Both need work but I think both are hardcoded so I'll wait for an EB memeber to define that before I make any suggestions.
Dictator and Magister Equitum As my esteemed colleagues, in the group known as "The EB fans", Zaknafien and Matthius Julius said, it would be great to see it in the game. A dictator can be declared in two ways, as an emergency in the state, or by a powerful general. Should the Romans lose a specified number/percentage of either generals or cities, preferably cities, but maybe both, or, should a consul or both consuls be killed before the elections, then a character with high command will be declared temporary dictator and another will be declared Magister Equitum. Option two, should a general be immensely successful, take a lot of provinces, defeat a lot of armies, etc.. and should he be old enough to have influence in Italy/Rome(about 50/60) and should he have previously held the position of consul, then he can declare himself dictator for life, which while it has its bonuses would also be well represented by causing a lot of unrest, caused both by the man holding the title and certain other generals. This would be because when he declared himself dictator for life all other faction members would get a trait that either said they support the dictator or they don't. Those that support him decrese unrest(law enforcers) While those that don't support him cause unrest and get a major decrease in cost to bribe(Rebel Romans). It would also be interesting if after a while the faction leader was capable of receiving the posittion Tribunis Plebeiis Imperator should he have previously held consul or dictator. This would represent the start of the emperors. Basically the character gets the same bonus as the Tribune of the Plebs and other bonuses for being the Imperator. This is what Augustus did and other Emperors continued to do. He said he was actually restoring the Republic and declared himself Imperator but legally took the position of Tribune of the Plebs in the government. He was in theory just an official, but in reality the (almost) absolute ruler of the Empire. This trait could be any of the important positions in the government from Tribune of the people up to Consul. All the emperors did this up until around the time of Constantine, they took a position in the government and the name Imperator. Different Emperors had different degrees of power in actuality as the senate and other governmental positions still had a fair bit of power and the election of officials stayed in the hands of the people for a long time. All these positions would be rare but if they just happened to turn up it would make the game immensely exciting!:2thumbsup:
unique building ideas: (more to follow)
The Ovile ("sheepfold")
One of the few structures that exist on the Campus Maritus, the Ovile is a compound filled with barriers and aisles, the kind used to pen livestock. This is where elections to the various Roman magistracies are held.The voters are herded down the aisles in separate blocks according to wealth and status. To vote for Tribunes, for instance, the voters would be divided according to tribe. Every vote had to be delivered in person at the Ovile, ensuring that only the most wealthy Romans abroad could afford the trip. The citizens assembled to vote in the same way their ancestors assembled to go to war. Just as in the days of the kings, a trumpet would be blown at daybreak to summon them to the Campus. A red flag would be flown from the Janiculum Hilly beyond the Tiber, signalling that no enemies could be seen. The citizens would then line up as though for battle, with the richest at the front and the poorest in the rear. So heavily weighted were the votes of the wealthy, that they usually served to decide the election before the poor had a chance to cast their ballots.
What about the trait "imperator", that is in the Res Gestai mod. Anbody in the imperial family gets the trait.
We already have the trait imperator, it just isn't passed by family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom
Foot
~:thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot
Can't wait!