Red Flood

OK, with my plan, I'm hoping for a withdrawal, and not the destruction in place of the British forces, so the front line should just try to pin the British and prevent them from moving, not try to assault and destroy them. The 15th PzD, Ariete and 5th LAD will attack and cut off their retreat and cause them to lose men and materiel as they flee, but the primary purpose is to force a withdrawal.

This is a risk we have to take, but even if it fails, we can recover pretty easily from it. The main risks I see to my plan are the following.

1.) 7th Armored or 4 Indian can move further south to blocking the envelopment attempt: 15th PzD and Ariete can just cram themselves into the gaps they create when doing that, causing the blocking move to be split up, and thus able to be destroyed in detail.

2.) The Italian Divisions can be destroyed at the front: If the Italian divisions don't press too hard on the attack and keep a decent mobile reserve, they won't be destroyed, especially since the mobile elements to the south are much more of a threat.

3.) Airplanes: Keep our airplanes in support of the 15th PzD and Ariete and they should be fine. Distribute extra Flak evenly between the 15th PzD and the Italians.

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OK, with my plan, I'm hoping for a withdrawal, and not the destruction in place of the British forces

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Why? If they withdraw that means they get more supplies. If they get destroyed we win.

If they withdraw in haste and leave their equipment stranded in the desert, we can cut them down like fleeing game. Destruction is tiresome and takes time we don't have, and cornered men fight hard.

For Kage: Why keep the 5th LAD in reserve? It's a light armor formation, it's for flanking/scouting, not defense. Keep Trieste in reserve instead. And remember, what Legio said. We're doing maneuver and careful movement, not frontal WWI style assault.

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Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

OK, with my plan, I'm hoping for a withdrawal, and not the destruction in place of the British forces, so the front line should just try to pin the British and prevent them from moving, not try to assault and destroy them. The 15th PzD, Ariete and 5th LAD will attack and cut off their retreat and cause them to lose men and materiel as they flee, but the primary purpose is to force a withdrawal.

This is a risk we have to take, but even if it fails, we can recover pretty easily from it. The main risks I see to my plan are the following.

1.) 7th Armored or 4 Indian can move further south to blocking the envelopment attempt: 15th PzD and Ariete can just cram themselves into the gaps they create when doing that, causing the blocking move to be split up, and thus able to be destroyed in detail.

2.) The Italian Divisions can be destroyed at the front: If the Italian divisions don't press too hard on the attack and keep a decent mobile reserve, they won't be destroyed, especially since the mobile elements to the south are much more of a threat.

3.) Airplanes: Keep our airplanes in support of the 15th PzD and Ariete and they should be fine. Distribute extra Flak evenly between the 15th PzD and the Italians.

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Why should we use the Italian divisions in our main front offensively,when we now have artillery superiority? With our artillery support and 5th light and pioneers,they should be able to hold the line with ease.British would be only waisting their forces by attacking against our troops that are supported so well with artillery.
We should just dig in the Main line like i suggested and let the artillery to do its job. 5th light division is just light on its name. Its the second most powerfull Division we have in our forces.Basicly its highly motorized and has most tanks after the 15th Pzd.Ideal for mobile reserve.

Edit: DemonarchAngel did you even read my initial plan?https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=650

WWI assault? Im suggesting using our mobility to outmanouver our enemy,while depleting his forces with our superior artillery.While you are suggesting a simple assault from front and flank,while our forces couldnt achive that to the single Australian division before.

The 5th Light is mobile, it's meant to move, not to be held in reserve. Trieste has enough motorized forces and armor anyway. If we just stand there, the British will retreat in an orderly fashion. If the Italians are moving forward with a rolling artillery barrage etc. at the same time that our forces are hitting the flanks, the British will panic, ditch their heavy equipment and run, which will allow us to cut them down more easily. I'm suggesting we use our artillery yes, to support the MOVING Italians, not the static ones. (i read your initial plan).

And WWI assault was in reference to you thinking what I was trying to do. I'm trying to keep proper pressure on the British at the front, which is what your plan lacks. The British won't just keep attacking once they figure out our strength of artillery at the front. And think about what would happen if the British find out the 5th LAD is in their rear.

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Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

The 5th Light is mobile, it's meant to move, not to hold a position. Trieste has enough motorized forces and armor anyway. If we just stand there, the British will retreat in an orderly fashion. If the Italians are moving forward with a rolling artillery barrage etc. at the same time that our forces are hitting the flanks, the British will panic, ditch their heavy equipment and run, which will allow us to cut them down more easily. I'm suggesting we use our artillery yes, to support the MOVING Italians, not the static ones. (i read your initial plan).

And WWI assault was in reference to you thinking what I was trying to do. I'm trying to keep proper pressure on the British at the front, which is what your plan lacks.

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5th light division was named light,becouse it was initially comprised from ad hoc units.It was not anykind of recon division as you are suggesting.Here is the division as its better known: http://www.answers.com/topic/21st-panzer-division

How will the British retreat in orderly way if we move panzer division and two motorized divisions in their flank just waiting for them to get up from their threnches.Our problem was that before we didnt have the artillery support to pound the British in to dust.Now we do. As i stated earlier.It will only benefit us if the British start withdrawing.Then we can destroy them completely.Australians showed already how much they panic under assault.By your plan we will just waist manpower unnecessarily and risk our center to collapse.

I'm not saying it was a Recon division. I'm saying it would be better if we used its mobility to strike deeply into the heart of the enemy, rather than keeping it as a reserve, which would free up the 15th Panzer to engage the 7th AD and thus deprive the British of a mobile strike force.

And if we don't keep up pressure, they would be much less likely to panic. Our center won't collapse if we don't press our attacks very hard in any case Kage.

I think a mobile reserve is essential with that we can counter what nasty ideas the British armoured division may try.Well i guess here is where we disagree and what is the difference between our two plans. I suggest we create the pressure by using concentrated artillery against their forces and cutting the British of from their suply. While you want to create the pressure by frontal and flank attack supported by artillery. I think the arguments are layed out pretty much,lets see what others think.:yes:

No, I'm suggesting that the 5th Leichte attack the supply, while other formations handle the flank attack. And were you reading what I was writing? I suggested that Trieste be kept as a mobile reserve, not the 5th LAD.

Well did i say that you suggested that 5th light was to be held in reserve? As far as im concerned i havent sayed a word what you are suggesting to be used as reserve,only answering why i feel that 5th light should be used as reserve. I was trying to show the general points where we disagree. But now that you mention it.I dont agree also sending an single division behind the enemy if you ask me about that,its lot better to have strong force that cant be removed by British counter attack.So i hope i have now stated everything i disagree with your plan.

Urgh... whatever, let's just wait until tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Stig

Franc what is the current operational status of all divisions? (troop numbers, tank types, amount of art, vehicles, tanks, supplies, etc)

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Italians divisions:

Trento (Infantry division): almost full combat strength
Bologna (Infantry division): almost full combat strength
Trieste (Mobile Division): almost full combat strength
Ariete (Tank Division): 30% combat strength
Brescia (Infantry Division - kind of elite): 80% combat strength
Pavia (Infantry Division): 60% combat stregth, almost completley immobile
(note that the Italian divisions have a nominal strenght that is only about 2/3 of a British or German division).

German Divisions

5. Light Division (reduced tank dvision): 20% combat strength
15. PD (Tank Division): 80 % combat strength
both German divisions have an extra recon det.
additionally some heavy artillery and pioneers

In broad terms, I agree with Kage. I think we should create a solid infantry front with a mobile reserve to deliver a "right hook" I think our only problem is this strategy relies on the British continuing to attack. If they just use it as an attack to relieve Tobrok then we will both just sit there glaring at each other. When we are stabilised and have our reserves in place we should probe with our extra recon with a view to launching the "right hook"

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Italians divisions:

Trento (Infantry division): almost full combat strength
Bologna (Infantry division): almost full combat strength
Trieste (Mobile Division): almost full combat strength
Ariete (Tank Division): 30% combat strength
Brescia (Infantry Division - kind of elite): 80% combat strength
Pavia (Infantry Division): 60% combat stregth, almost completley immobile
(note that the Italian divisions have a nominal strenght that is only about 2/3 of a British or German division).

German Divisions

5. Light Division (reduced tank dvision): 20% combat strength
15. PD (Tank Division): 80 % combat strength
both German divisions have an extra recon det.
additionally some heavy artillery and pioneers

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We can't attack with this. I suggest Trento, Bologna and Brescia form a defensive line at Gazala. We should retreat both Ariete and 5. Light to a point safe behind our lines. I suggest something like Mechili. Pavia stays where it is. 15. Panzer should be on our right flank ready to take out a possible British flanking movement. Trieste will be at the coast ready to do the same. But also both have to be in reserve. We should just let the Brits come, as they will.

Stig
Why should the Brits attack? - at best our strengths are even, in reality, we probably outnumber them and we are in a better supply position to them. I will not be surprised if they don't just dig in and wait.

Well myself I wanted to lure them into an attack. If we go all out retreating (the Italian divisions first) they might think they got the better hand. When we then reach the defensive line Pavia will be digging at Mersa Brega we can immediatly have good defensive positions, and the British because of their quick run following us will be immobile. All we need to do is aim and fire.

I agree with Kurt on his assumption that the British wont attack. How ever if we place force strong enough on their flank harassing their supply, they have to take measures or start suffering from lack of supplies.

Maybe a word regarding the British supply situation:

The British base is Alexandria, of course. There is a railroad from Alexandria to Mersa Maruth. From there supply has to be carried by truck or plane. Additionally, the Brits can ship their supply. They have Tobruk, an excellent harbor, close to their front, at the moment.

Reinforcements for the RAF:
Bombers are transferred across Africa, fighters have to be shipped.

The German/Italian situation:

The base is Tripoli. There is one road along the coast (VIA BALBO), which all trucks have to use. There is also Benghazi, a harbor only suitable for small ships (unlike Tobruk). Of course the Axis is also using air transport.

There is a long leadtime. If you wish to get a new division or replacements from Germany it takes 8 weeks untils it is carried through Italy, shipped to Tripoli and transferred into the Cyreneika. If you have to reequip or train the units first, it takes even longer.

Well i dont consider 8 weeks too long time to harass the British African army by blowing up trains cutting off railroads and destroying British supply convoys both at roads and sea,While pounding the British mainline with artillery.and destroying it after the panzer division from Naples arrives. Altough i find it pretty strange how fast British could bring more divisions and huge amount of tanks on the Africa front no matter of the situtation in Britain. For example where are these new British fighters and bombers coming from,when Battle of Britain is at full speed?
While we cant supply an attack of 100 kilometers,without getting our forces in disorder.
Somehow i see both the Strategical situation and tactical situation beeing lot more against the Germans,then it was in reality.

Sorry, Kage, I cannot agree! I am sure you know the 'real' history very well and remember the convoy 'Tiger'. This is exactly the same that came across the Med in our history. Those tanks and planes haven't arrived at the front, yet!

All divisions that are actually on the map were in Africa or close in the 'real' year 1941. There are no ghost divisions so far.

However, the invasion of Malta in our story was a bonfire. Haven't you expected that the British would react somehow. Churchill is still decided to fight until the bitter end. He will not give ground. After having lost Malta, he knows pretty good that the Axis is going to try to invade Egypt. Why do you think that the Brits did send the convoy across the Med, not the usual way around. So watch out!

Im sorry Franc if i come up whining.:oops: But if the British stand has changed shouldnt the Germans also react by example sending us divisions from Greece? We should have two German corps in Africa,while in reality,we pretty much only have the forces Rommel had in reality plus a single panzer division,meaning two German divisions. If nothing else.Maybe Ramcke could ask for atleast a regiment of Nebelwerfer´s as our Grouppes artillery detachment?

You have four tank divisions, although only two have arrived. It takes some time to deploy four divisions at Libya. You could get more than 4, but as we discussed before. you cannot supply more than max. 4.

Keep on whining. Hitler did not understand where all those Australian, Indian, South African, Newsealndish and Canadian Forces came from, too. He thought that this was unfair, too.:laugh4:

And now he is comparing me to Hitler.:wall: :laugh4: This is what you get when you choose the scenic route to the Arabian oilfields.:smash:Edit:Do we have a date,when the whole Panzer Grouppe Africa will be in the area of Operations?

So, to sum up, another 2 tank divs should arrive shortly (I'm guessing 1-2 weeks?) and when they do, we'll be able to pull back and reinforce the depleted divs that should be kept in reserve in the meantime.

And we don't have 8 weeks to wait for new troops to arrive from Germany. We should request them, but they should be arriving to Alexandria and the Suez channel, and not to Tripoli.

Kage: Maybe you should send Finish troops. Look what they did on the ice fields and imagine what they could do, if htey were getting really hot.:verycool:

However, it might take more than 8 weeks to get them into the desert.:oops:

SM: The 3. PD is already coming and will be at Gazala within 4 weeks. The 4. PD will arrive later, maybe 4 weeks later. (If you travel through Italy, time is relative.)
Of course there are also replacements for the German and Italian divisions on the way as well as sand filters for tanks, trucks and planes.

Franc,We dont have icefields here,neither polar beers or penquins.:laugh4: In matter of fact after WWII there was a quite of few Finnish troops on Suez on a certain UN mission.Sitting between Israeli and Egyptian troops.:yes:Edit: So we keep bombarding and harassing the British army four a month and then destroy them after our two other panzer divisions arrive.:2thumbsup:

:dizzy2: You mean that you are no penquin?

Gentlemen, I think it is time to decide eiter:

1) to attack or
2) to wait

Definitely to attack! We can't wait until the brits pour on us another few dozen planes and tanks! We have to kick them off the airfields and away from the roads and supplies...

I'd say we wait, you can't attack with 2 almost destroyed divisions and 1 that is immobile far behind our own lines.

1)To attack by manouver like Kage "The Penquin" has suggested.:clown: