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Official statement of the Republic of Netherlands
We will accept Ferdinand of Habsburg as legimite representative of Holy Roman Empire and accept the terms of Peace. So from this day on there shall be peace between The Republic of Netherlands and The Holy Roman Empire. The Republics forces will stay on the areas described on peace treaty and will not offend Holy Roman Empire by crossing the new borders unless invited.
Maurice of Nassau,The Stadtholder of Republic of Netherlands
Official statement from Denmark:
We confirm the legality of Ferdinand as Kaiser until the reelection in October is held.
OOC: Will Bopa still play the HRE?
Also... damnit! You just had to stop the war didn't you!? :furious3: ~;p
OOC:Meh I don't know. I was not part of the last part of negotiations so maybe not.
Message from the Court of King James
"It is with great saddnes that we heard the news of the death of the Kaiser.
We welcome and recognise the role of Ferdinand in bringing peace back to europe in a dignified and diplomatic manner.
We call upon France and Brandenberg to urgently clarify their position. While most of Europe strives for peace, the King of france appears reluctant to bring to a head his current disaggrement with his fellow catholic ruler of the HRE. As for the court of Brandenberg, they talk of peace, pillage and destruction in the same breath. As the divine rulers of europe, i am sure my fellow monarchs want to hear their view of things.
Finally we call upon the Pope to make a clear and unambigious statement on its position on the war. It appears to us that he has stood aside in shameful silence while Catholic murdered Catholic while being happy to make all forms of statements attempting to limit the work of good christians such as ourselves, the Dutch and the Danish taking the christian word to the heathens of the new world. Only now with Europe threatened by the forces of Islam does he wake from his convienent slumbers to make belated pleas for support too little, too late. The catholic dead of the recent war demand a clear statement on this matter."
Signed this day
James the first of England and Sixth of Scotland.
Who is this frog quacking in the name of the noble house of Habsburg? Who is he that he thinks he can make treaties in the name of the Holy Roman Empire.
Is it true that Matthias has left us? Although We had differences in the past, We would regret that.
Now that he is gone there is no other authority to rule the Empire than the French army. According to the order of the dead Kaiser We expect every German officer to fulfil his duty and to support us to keep order.
To get a new Kaiser which We can give the power back, there has to be an election. We support the invitation of the Kurfürst der Pfalz, but we will not interfere in the election. So any successor of the house Habsburg can be a candidate, as well as any other chosen nobleman.
We are willing to make peace with the HRE, as soon as there is an authority We can negotiate with.
If Ferdinand is the heir of Matthias, we will welcome him as the new King of Bohemia and Duke of Austria. Of course he will participate in the election.
We would like to ask Ferdinand, if the agreements, We made with Matthias, are still valid.
Maximilien, Marechal de France
Off context:
I am a bit surprised to see that Bopa is way out of the game. I always thought that if one person dies, the heir keeps on playing. My first character died a long time ago. So do I have to negotiate with Bopa or Legio?
We would call French Statement bit overkill about French army ruling the HRE since there are more troops of countries of Protestant Coalition and Union at the area of Holy Roman Empire then French ones.
Embassador of Netherlands
ps.Out of Character: I guess Poba will assume new role when new Kaiser is elected.:2thumbsup:
The Commander of the Empires Troops, Tilly.
We wish to point out to the French that Tilly is still in absalute control of the army, and enevr did the Kaiser agree to German troops being under French command. We do remeber however his wish that the French to help prevent any lingering vultures from ripping more out of the Empire.
Tilly however is unable, due to Turkish movements to attend the Elections and will instead move to Vienna.
OOC: I posted this just to clarify my position before the Kaiser Died.
Then Tilly will remeber that the Kaiser also asked the french to occupy as much territory as possible. We assumed that this would include the support of the local authorities and the garrisons.:wall:
Firthermore, the Kaiser capitulated to the French forces.
Spain wishes to call the attention to the fact that all other members of the alliance have already signed peace treaties with the Empire, and therefore are not an occupying force since they are not at war anymore, while the french army is an occupying force as it has not signed a peace treaty and therefore still at war and it is only negotiating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
So for the other alliance members to become an occupying force, they must declare war again.
OOC: Sorry for nitpicking :beam:, just clarifying the legal matters.
So technically, France is the only one who is still at war and can impose conditions.
BTW, Bopa, did you get my PM? Is it still relevant after the death of the Kaiser?
EDIT:Can't spell...
Netherlands would like to also remind that Protestant Union has not admitted the late Kaisers power over them,infact they were at war with him and this means the most of the North and Middle German lords. And they are still allied to Most countries of Protestant coalition. So if Ferdinand is not counted as representative of HRE.The Protestant coalitions forces are Allied force of Protestant Union in North and middle Germany. As we understand France has signed the cease fire and becouse of that cant be thought as war with HRE. Altough the Lords of Protestant Union are admitting Ferdinand as representative of HRE. So in order to make peace,wouldnt it be best option for all to admit Ferdinand as representative of HRE until the elections for new Kaiser are held?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsMaster
OOC:More nitpicking.~;)
Well, technically, the Netherlands have negotiated with Ferdinand, therefore accepting him as a valid representative, if you didn't accept him as a valid representative, then the negotiation would be illegal and you'd still be at war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Again, technically, the Netherlands and the protestant rulers who recognised Ferdinand, are at peace, while those who did not, are still at war. As France, independently from the PU has not accepted Ferdinand's legality, they are at war with everyone, no matter if Catholic or Protestant.
The fact that France is discussing terms does not mean they are not at war, as if the terms are rejected by one of the parties, hostilities will continue. The Netherlands, on the other hand, has already accepted the terms, and therefore signed a legally binding document that prevents it from going to war again.
Again, legally, if the protestant lords did not accept the authority of the late Kaiser after electing him, they are rebelling against their liege, and are nothing but traitors to the Empire no matter who is the ruler, because they have challenged not the man, but the structure of power and the mechanism by which the ruler is elected. So, technically, and because in the peace treaty they have signed there are no specific terms about anyone of them except Brandemburg, the new Emperor or the Diet must judge them and condemn them for treason.
Again, as far as France is NOT part of the Protestant Union, the legal documents including the PU, do not apply to France.
OOC: Phew :sweatdrop:. I work too much :yes:.
Well...That goes other way around too.Firstly The Protestant union didnt reject Kaiser as institution but Kaiser as person.So they are not traitors but Lords who rejected their leader becouse he didnt obey the law of the land.Since he broke the diet of Augsburg. Now if there is not one representative over HRE.That means that only that either the treaties made by France or treaties made by Others are legimite.This is the reason why Netherlands is working for a goal that there is only one representative of HRE untill new Kaiser has been elected.
OOC::sweatdrop: ~;)
I think that no treaties are valid as long as there is no legal representative for the empire.
Right now, we have a ceasefire and that ends the fighting for the moment. This gives us the time to solve the problems properly.
For everything regarding the ceasefire and the order I will discuss Tilly, who is the supreme commander of the Imperial forces.
I have nothing against those armies that fought the former Kaiser and contributed to the victory. I aks for their help to preserve order and to protect the borders of the country until valid agreements can be made with a legal representive.
I have something against anybody who did join up as long as the Emperor was mighty, but who wants to join in the conversation now that his might is broken.
Ferdiand:
I think we should get in contact to clear our relationship. Please send me your agent or come personally.
Max
OOC: I need a clarification: Legio or Bopa, or whoever is doing this:
Is the Diet in Speyer or Vienna? Or are there two diets? Or is Tilly in Vienna with the "true German princes" and the Electors gathered in Speyer? Actually that is a funny option...
Just to be clear though....
Cheers
Well, in that case he should have called for a Diet to judge and elect a new Kaiser if necessary instead of going in direct rebellion. Direct rebellion against the Kaiser is against the law of the Empire.Quote:
Well...That goes other way around too.Firstly The Protestant union didnt reject Kaiser as institution but Kaiser as person.So they are not traitors but Lords who rejected their leader becouse he didnt obey the law of the land.Since he broke the diet of Augsburg. Now if there is not one representative over HRE.That means that only that either the treaties made by France or treaties made by Others are legimite.This is the reason why Netherlands is working for a goal that there is only one representative of HRE untill new Kaiser has been elected.
Now if it could be proven that the Kaiser is the one disobeying the laws, then he must be deposed by the Diet, and the ruler of Brandemburg alone has no authority to do this.
As of the treaties, the treaties are subjective to the two or more parts that signed them, and it is perfectly acceptable for other parts, not included in the treaty to ignore them. There is no universal treaty. So if Netherlands and Ferdinand signed the treaty they are the only 2 parts that are bound to obey it, and if France signed a treaty with the Duke of Austria, then it would remain at war with the whole HRE minus Austria, no matter what treaty did the Netherlands sign separately.
Both treaties can be valid simultaneously, it is just a matter of perceived legality.
Basicaly you sign the treaty with who, in your perspective, seems more trustworthy. If France thinks Ferdinand is not representative enough, it is their own right to hold that opinion. If the Netherlands thinks otherwise, again, it is their own right.
This is, BTW, completely OOC, and is not representative of the official spanish opinion on the matter. This is just to clarify the legal reach of the agreements
The Royal Academy for Jurisprudence at Cordoba is really worth the money :dizzy2:
OOC: As im aware of the situation.In the post 804# As the Emperor Matthias falled ill.His The Interrim Givernment of his Majesty's council of War of war stated this:
This is clear call for diet to gather in Vienna.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
After that in post 806# France called a another diet:
After this in post: 810# I assume the Diet which was gathering in Vienna stated that Kaiser was dead and lead by Ferdinand again messaged clearly that Diet should gather in Vienna.That time they also ratified the peace treaty with Netherlands:Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
But for some reason France didnt admit the authority of the diet that was gathering in Vienna in post 816#:Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
So my understanding of affairs is that there are two diets now beeing called.One by the late Kaisers Interior war council whom which Ferdinand represents and another by France.Ofcourse my interpration could be wrong but im sure Legio will clear it up to us.:sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
I doubt that Legio can decide it.
My understanding is:
We do not have a Kaiser right now. There is a heir, Ferdinand, who gets the titles of Bohemia and Austria. Of course he is one of the electors. The title of the Emperor cannot be passed on. Nor could the dying Kaiser decide who will be the interim.
So as a matter of fact there is no interim goverment at the moment. Even if there was an interim, the Kaiser capitulated, so the power lays in my hands.
The only organisation, that is authorized to elect the Kaiser, are the Prince-Electors. They could decide to elect an interim too. And I guess they are free to choose the place where the election should take place.
There is one good reason for Speyer. It was traditionally the place, where the Kaiser received the crown. And it is the home of one of the electors. Vienna has one big drawback: It prepares itself for being besieged by a huge turkish army. Maybe not the appropriate place for the election.
So there are two proposals and the electors can decide where to meet
If the electors are not even able to agree on the place to meet, I fear it is a bit too early to decide who is the right on to make treaties with.
By the way, the French have not disarmed the Imperial army of Tilly. I guess Ferdinand has received wrong information of what happened at Regensburg.
OOC:I agree that there is no Kaiser at the moment,but there needs to be a chairman of the diet and it seems its Ferdinand.Also read carefully on the message:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
The Interrim Givernment of his Majesty's council of War.
As of late, our great and noble Kaiser has fallen ill and is thus incapable of the more rigorous escersise of Government. As it is, his chief Millitary commander, Tilly calls for all true German Princes to Proceed at once to Vienna, there to hold an emergency Riechstagg and if, the Lord doth deign to take the Emperor, an election.
He has Ordered his subordinates to halt all millitary actions with France, Denmark and the Netherlands. However, the Council warns Brandenbourg that the army shall remain in the firld under Wallenstien to deter any attacks. However, he does grant you you're place at the Riechstagg."
It clearly states that Tilly is also calling the diet to Vienna.Now whether its smart or not to hold the Diet in Vienna is matter of HRE as far as im concerned.There is not single word about while Kaiser still alive that he actually surrendered to the French.Rather that his warcouncill headed by Tilly took over,becouse Kaiser was not capable of ruling anymore.
He has not surrendered?
If this issue is uncelar, we do not have to rely on legal speculations, we can resolve this by the sword. So any German commander, heir, lord , successor or whoever thinks that the Kaiser has not surrendered, can settle this with my army near Regensburg. I think we can settle this immediately.
So, basically, Legio has to decide which diet the electors go to. Since it is dumb to have a diet without electors, and they can't attend both...
BTW, Kage, Legio's post that you quoted, doesn't actually specify where the diet is to meet. It just orders the army to Vienna, nothing else.
Just for clarification: Bopa is still in the game! Bopa will get to choose a new character, for example the new elected Holy Roman Emperor.
Re Kaiser vote: If the terms are that normal reelection will take place, I will need to decide who becomes the new Kaiser. All Electors will be able to influence the result - that means Brandenburg can vote. However the Brandenburg vote will be of little importance because a Catholic is still the most likely to win even if Brandenburg votes for a Protestant candidate, since the Catholics have most influence in total in the election.
Re the Dutch/Danish at war or not: they have made peace with the new Kaiser, but if the new Kaiser isn't recognized, or if he is overthrown or otherwise loses power completely, the treaties could (but won't necessarily) be invalidated - the rules here are unclear. Anyone claiming that the new Kaiser is illegal could automatically be interpreted as declaring the Dutch and Danish peace treaties illegal, but it won't necessarily have to be interpreted that way. If it's explicitly stated that France declares the Danish/Dutch treaties legal/illegal it's possible to at the same time declare the new Kaiser legal/illegal (all combinations of this), but the chances that the treaties are considered legal by the next Kaiser decrease if the current Kaiser was at the same time declared illegal, and the new Kaiser is someone else than Ferdinand. Denmark and the Netherlands can't take part in occupation now since they're out of the war, but they have influence by the normal methods of threatening and/or expressing their wishes. France can choose to ignore their requests/threats, or listen to them. The consequences will be whatever the players decide to do in response to whichever action is taken.
Re occupation of the HRE: trying to occupy all of the HRE wouldn't be possible, because Spain, Denmark and probably also the Netherlands have a few possessions there as fiefs. So the occupation would need to be restricted at least to some extent. How much it would be restricted is up to the actions of the different players to decide.
OOC:You are right,but Bopas original does.Now i dont want to even think the possibility that Ferdinands message came somewhere else then Vienna.:sweatdrop: But im sure we will find out soon.:smash:Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsMaster
Re two elections, the previous Kaiser invited to diet in Vienna before he died. The French announced a diet elsewhere. Ferdinand has not yet done anything else than called for a vote, not specifying exactly where or when. If a situation with two diets remains, and both the diets happen at the same time, things will be quite complicated. If there are two diets, you can expect that those who are most pro-Protestant and pro-French will go to the French designated diet, and the Catholics to go to the other, unless they all decide it's more important to get a voting that is going to be accepted as legal by all parts, in which case some of if not all of the Electors will probably try to solve this schism, possibly ignoring both diets until there is an agreement.
Things just got mre interesting...
King Sigismund
We in Poland ask that the election go swiftly and effectively, to ensure complete
and industrious regulation and rule over the Holy Roman Empire.
The Council of Ferdinand and Imperial Commander Tilly.
It has come to our attention that some confusion reigns as to where the Election is to be held. As per the last Kaisers wishes, it shall be held in Vienna, afterwhich a Riechstagg shall be ehld to discuss the war with the Turks.
We apologise to the French if they we're in some ways confused by the Interrim Governments actions. We verify that the Kaiser did not surrender to anyone, his Interrim government merely announced a ceasfire. We also verify that a Freindly French force within the Empire would be of great help in deterring any... Unwanted attentions from outsiders. It was not specified where the French force should be placed. More dicusion on that matter is needed.
Meanwhile we must proceed with the burial details at once, of the Great Kaiser.
Tsar Vasili is overjoyed to hear of this great news! Peace throughout Europe, until it gets boring.
Sweden calls on Poland to hand over Riga and recognize the rightful Tsar. Things in Russia are going bad for you and Brandenburg is free from its conflict with the empire. Where do you think they will expand next? In the south the Ottomans also threaten to advance into christen lands to t. My demands are thus:
1. Latvia shall be ceded to the Swedish crown.
2. Vasilli will be recognized as tsar
I advise you to surrender now while you have a chance at such easy terms.
Gustav Adolph, King of Sweden
King Gustav has proposed a wise deal. I suggest, Sigismund, that you accept. This will not bode well if you do not. The Ottomans are hungry for battle, the Swedes have superior technology and well, I'm a pissed off, stubborn Russian with little to loose.