Sorceror 17er Game Thread

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

dobby's iso pretty pimply for me, btw

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it has pimples?

Winston just explain this beyond finding it "pimply"

town reads: ben, hollowkatt, zack
sunbae, katze, dobby
ender, csargo, rask
winston hughes

null: montmorency

i had winston as null but recent posting is enough to push him a shade above everyone else. i had zack a tier lower based on earlier eval but every time he post it just looks villagy to me.

i wouldnt be shocked if theres a wolf in the more null/less active players but rn it feels kind of dart throw-y such that i dont really want to vote any of them for the d1 elim, if some of them remain null contentwise theyre good exploding vest targets

gun to my head monstr is a villager but i dont rly want to think about him presently


wolfy:
cuth, ladd, newcomb, cape


this is maybe going to be rant-ish, but, i think both ladd and newcomb are p. darn wolfy. i dont really care about reputation, i dont care that people like them, i dont think either has really looked like they care about solving the game, and are riding on the assumption they will get a free pass. i also think their treatment of each other looks very partner-y. i know this is day 1 and doing this kind of pre-flip associating often goes wrong but they seem to be reading each other as villagers off very little whilst not actually talking in a meaningful way and it doesnt feel like how villagers talk to one another.

i already went over newcomb a bit. w/r/t ladd: im a bit conflicted because it feels omgus-y. but i think all of his wolf reads this game have been p bad, not in the sense that they are wrong (because i dont know that), but that the reasonig hasnt been believable. i realize this is partly an ego thing because his current top suspect is me. but his reads on ender/sunbae were very reachy. i didnt say anything at the time because i think in the early game everyones wolf reads are a bit reachy. but it felt a bit like the way they developed didnt feel like an honest evaluation. i realize he backed down on the wolfread of sunbae but it was only after sunbae started giving him a little pushback, and it didnt feel like it developed in an authentic way, insisting on a derp being fake is stretchy. same with ender where it was, like, all tone/vibes in early game and then didnt really seem to update itself as ender contributed more. its like hes not really evaluating new data as it comes in. i dont get the sense ladd cares about solving the game.


(i realize i am basically lobbing grenades by saying some of this stuff which is not really cool to do anonymously so i might have to out)

ooh yeah

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Originally Posted by Cape90

You are reading the same Winston as I am right?

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i want to straight town read this

but i've been burned before

:sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Cape90

it has pimples?

Winston just explain this beyond finding it "pimply"

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

firstly, it's the hk vote

secondly, it's the reasoning behind the hk vote

thirdly, it's the timing of the hk vote

fourthly, it's that you made me go look for the reasoning behind the hk vote

fifthly, it's that when i looked for the reasoning behind the hk vote, i found the rest of your iso to lack anything that feels townie to me

for all of that, you've posted far more worthwhile content that i have

so it's no criticism

just you look scummy to me

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:music:

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

wall hype

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John Cena

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

John Cena

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welcome back!

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

John Cena

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:medievalcheers:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

John Cena

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thats how i feel about your iso:clown:

My first instinct upon seeing the first half is that Zack and Csargo are paired again and hastily voting me out of the Fear of my immense analytical prowess. Here's some thread revenge.

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Originally Posted by Sleep

i have a townping on montmorency!

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:bucktooth:

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Originally Posted by zack

:huh:

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Priming.

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

I started reading posts, had no idea what Mont was referencing, scrolled up and read the set up, and immediately cracked up laughing. Compulsive bomber maker is absolutely hilarious and I beg you to choose me. Just blasting someone in the face on day 2 and then going to dvc laughing with them for it is peak werewolf and I must have it

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Enemy mine, but could be town.

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

if i had expected anything

i think it would have been pretty close to this

zack/ender lock w/w

sunbae going HARD on the villager rp as also a wolf love to see it

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Put a pin in it.

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Originally Posted by zack

:hide:

my vote was serious

newcomb light v

:hide:

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Couch motif seems subliminal.

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49 made me smile

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Don't make me envious of Sunbae. Notice me while there's still time senpai, I'll do you proud.

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i generally don't like arguing back and forth with someone on why i suspect them, it's pretty much a waste of time in my experience :book2:

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Lore fragment unlocked: Don't debate your suspects, case them to people you want to clear.

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"ah yes fellow vanilla town, i too am vanilla town"

:no:

more like you're a mafia stalker! :smash:

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Did you think I'm a goon?

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this alt is having a fun time

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Is Sleep really GH? (Spewed)

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Originally Posted by Dobby

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

Thats me creeping my way to dvc after I blow up someone on day 2

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I would love this tbh

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You ain't ready.

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I really really really really don't want to tryhsrd this game, I really want to see if I can play mafia again wtihhout spending every waking hour on the game

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Church (hella).

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But

a superstructure at the stern of a vessel.

What the fu k

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"Fire on the poopdeck."

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

this is guaranteed to bite me in the ass but katze has too many votes too quickly and therefore is town.
Ender otoh is not.
vote: ender

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Not enough to be probative D1 - early D1 at that.

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Originally Posted by Sleep

the reads on him were hedged in a jokey sort of way (that i think is typical of early game and not really alignment indicative) but i assume the sentimen behind them is at least somewhat real or they wouldn't express it

well i can go into all the problems i have with the stuff he posted but i don't want to explain it just yet

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That's a good point.

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

What villager RP? I laughed at the set up, talked about being nervous about champs, and then made an emote post. That is as NAI posting as it gets.

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What if it's town-leaning and you denying that makes it >rand maf?

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I'm struggling to parse Cape simultaneously making a wall post about avatar reads and throwing suspicion on people for jokey posts on the first page and a half. Could be wolfy fake suspicion that doesn't flow well or could just be a villager making a shift in seriousness quickly. Maybe someone else has a better take on it.

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Too much hedging. Death is on the line.

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Also, kind of squinting at Cape's talking about Mont as a "surprised nobody is talking about this cause usually people wolfread it" into saying they don't think that type of read works out very much.

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That's a good point.

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

I don't really have any interesting observations so far and I'm not going to try and force them

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That's a good point.

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Originally Posted by zack

this seems like a rather harsh interpretation given the stage of the game these posts were made in

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Correct.

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Originally Posted by Csargo

That's what I thought of it initially, probably reading too much into it tbh.

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That reassures us.

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Originally Posted by Monstrdude

Spicy take

I don't think anyone's been villagy

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I almost agree with you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by Sleep

im going to slice this first post backwards, for no other reason than i want to save the part i feel strongest about for last, although all of it bothers me

okay, so, a lot of cape's early posting can be summed up as "doesn't get jokes". now, not getting jokes isn't inherently wolfy. but take note of the verbiage here - "a little odd". not only is it hedgy it stops short of actually making a call on my alignment - "odd" does not equate to "wolfy", townies can be "odd". it's a little thing but often wolves tend to avoid directly actually calling anything wolfy.

additionally he says katze's response seems "justified" - what parts of that post seem justified? it's...an obvious joke about voting "sleep" to take a nap. it's messing around, there's

again, not getting a joke is not a crime in and of itself but it doesn't seem to me like he's actually reading what is being said in a critical way

now, running back in time 5 seconds, we have another instance of cape not getting a fairly obvious joke

the problem here is he's only responding to this post with a cookie-cutter, broad brushstroke argument - "busywork". what parts of that post seem like busywork? we don't know, because cape doesn't respond to any of the content within. to me this looks like he's making reads based on form rather than content, which is again wolfy because it's a sign that he's not actually reading the game critically - if he had actually tried to engage with any of the "points" zack made in that post i'd be willing to give credit for being tryhardy even if he missed an obvious joke. but as it is, it doesn't look like he actually tried to meaningfully evaluate the stuff zack was saying, because I think if anyone puts more than two seconds of thought into reading his words they'd say "oh, this is an obvious joke".

as it is, it looks like he saw that it looked like a post by post analysis list and decided to call it busy work and shade it. he didn't stop to actually read it.

this part here is just...super wolfy? "hey guys, surprised no one is calling this wolfy, i mean i dont, but you might?". it's such a bizzre comment to make, like he's tossing out a bit of bait to see if someone will bite, but keeping his own distance from it. the problem is this: if he doesn't believe that sort of thing is a meaningful tell, why bring it up at all?

it just doesn't read like a natural thought at all. when someone doesn't think a post is alignment indicative, they typically don't talk about it. but here he's simultaneously trying to shade the post and distance himself from it. i dont get the sense this is something said by someone who is trying to find wolves.

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"i don't see it" in response to an early wolfread push. not inherently bad in and of itself, but it is the kind of thing wolves frequently say in the earlygame - being dismissive of early wolfreads is an easy way to fake content, because all they have to do is disagree with people. wolves rarely are the type to lead a charge on someone so they'll often hold back when someone makes a stretchy case in the early game

i can sense some people probably rolling their eyes at this, and that's fine, it's a very minor point but i still wanted to discuss it because it pinged me. like i said, by itself this isn't a strong point at all because it can easily be said by a villager, but within the body of work i find it problematic.

says nothing, does nothing.

what, exactly, is there to like about this post? it's kind of generically agreeable in that it makes a point about how to play the game, and I agree that some forward momentum is preferable to a tepid, stagnant game, but it doesn't actually give me feelings on newcomb's alignment one way or the other. and again the verbiage of "in a sort of random way" is another statement that doesn't really do anything except to soften the read that follows.

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first point, he "doesn't like" a read. but does it mean anything for ladds alignment? he doesn't bother to say. it's easy to agree or disagree with things other people say, but what is harder is to generate your own analysis and thoughts. and what we have is that he is "sort of villagery" (again, more soft language) for "actually the same reasons", which...doesn't make sense at all? it doesn't actually meaningfully address the points ladd is making. why is he villagery for mostly responding to things or "posting just to post"? it's a totally half-baked response, there's nothing in cape's posts that gives a real indicator of why he thinks ender is villagery.

This is a very pedantic sort of dismissal to ender that doesn't really engage with the substance of the argument being made at all. "you said he was putting it forward as if it was a deep read, but it was on one post so it can't be deep at all". which, okay, but he very clearly meant it as a serious read, and cape selectively cuts off the latter parts of his post where ender gets into the more elaborate parts of his thinking about how wolves sometimes try to get too serious too early and hard switch. it doesnt look like hes meaningfully evaluating or considering enders words, just blandly dismissing a point he feels is eay to shoot down. this looks like cape isnt actually trying to read neb or ender. it kind of feeds back into what i said earlier about wolves tending to spend a lot of time in the early game shooting down reads rather than trying to solve.

(fwiw, i did like nebjiamn trying to make a serious accusation early there, and i think the antsiness to move the game forward and disappointment at being engaged with is towny. i didnt really want to respond to the read at the time though because th read itself felt stretchy and it would be more useful to see how the person being accused responds to it rather than saying anything myself. i think dobbys response to it is fine for now. i dont agree with enders take that it could be a wolf play although i understand the reasoning)

this is maybe the most egregious instance of cape's hedgy verbiage - why qualify the read in this way? how can something almost look really wolfy?i can find it understandable only finding something slightly suspicious in the early game, but this just comes across like he's afraid to throw a punch. reads very unnatural. either it's really wolfy or it isn't.

that is to say nothing of how again this is an egregious misreading of katze's post - if he was actually paying attention he'd have noticed the second line talks about a "pasta" and i assume cape is at least familiar enough with the concept of "copypasta" to know what that means.

and again not getting smeone's inside joke is not a crime, but what this again demonstrates is that cape is not really reading posts critically, but selectively, picking and choosing things to comment on. he picks out the first and last lines to attack while missing the part that tells him the bottom part of the post is fake and therefore irrelevant.

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again with the verbiage heavy on qualifiers, cape can hardly make a read without distancing himself from it

and again he can't actually bring himself to say how the post was supposed to be an "attempt at doing something". he doesn't engage with the substance at all. zack called something like 90% of the posts to that point wolfy, which is obviously absurd. i dont...get the sense cape was actually reading or evaluating that post in a meaningful way, just glossing it over and assuming it had to have been serious

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I'll need to sleep on this one.
(Hundred posts later too)

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Originally Posted by zack

not really a fan of monsters posts so far

:rtwno:

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I get it, but I'm sure it's just the wind.

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Cape seems more like mischop bait to me than a wolf :shrug:

I guess the massive wall is hypothetically villagy but it seems so unnecessary to go in that hard in so much detail this early

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Not if you're power towning or scumming. You know.

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Originally Posted by Sleep

id rather take a swing at the strongest read i have and see what responses it provokes, get some good ~discourse~ rolling. i had planned to hold off until closer to the 24 hour mark but felt like the conversation was drifting a bit so it was a good time to lay my cards on the table

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Mission accomplished.

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Originally Posted by Newcomb

Not a super impactful read but I do think if cape = w and especially if zack also= v then Sleep's like never ever a wolf. Being the second person to jump on this stuff after zack, while showing a pretty big awareness of cape's position in the thread - especially that zack kind of jokey townread him - gives him like the perfect ultra sweet opportunity to double down on a bus or pre-bus, instead he's got a very natural post here where he's more focused on the reactions to cape instead of laying out the problems he has with the post. As w/w with cape here he's really really gonna want those problems on the record, and not as like the 4th or 5th person to jump on it.

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Maybe.

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Originally Posted by Newcomb

You... want to give up town KP in a game that's gonna have like 6 deaths in the first four phases?

Like I'm struggling to parse this, you want to have the ability to read into the kill the wolves make at night, but you don't think you'll be able to read into a kill that we collectively decide to make instead of just the wolves? And you want to preemptively make D1 have no stakes by removing the possibility of a wolf dying?

That's like.... some wild degree of TWTBAW / TWTBTWTBAW / TWTBWTRIWMVMWIRWJ:KFSDKDF:JKDF where my brain kind of blue screens.

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5 deaths at most. Now stip denigrating No Lim.

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Originally Posted by katze

zack is wolfy

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...838b59896a.gif

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Preemptively, why?

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Originally Posted by Sleep

ehh, how often do you see a wolf who notices their teammate made a wolfy post, notices no one calling it out, and then makes it a point to draw attention to the post but also not push on it? it's really written in a way where he's positioned to get credit off a motnmorency w flip. not saying its impossible, but i dont really see it

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Sometimes?

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but im also just not going to get deep into worldbuiding on day 1, too many conditionals and the whole thing falls apart if ur wrong on one person

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Be a hero.

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lock town

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I guess you are GH.

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Originally Posted by zack

- sunbae's opener just seemed fake 2 me, in every game I've played with him as a villager he made a big effort going out of his way to leave PR cover, and while that doesn't really matter in this setup, it still struck me as out of character. *Sunbae* didn't even bother reading a setup before reading a bunch of posts in the actual game? :inquisitive:

- I thought ender had easily the most fry-worthy start and Cape looks more like "villager who gets misyeeted" than an actual wolf to me. Sunbae ignored all ender discourse afaict, and has railed against Cape a good amount and even tried to tie him to Monty as w/w on what seemed like a big stretch to me. Just doesn't make me feel good.

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So it doesn't fill you with bloodlust?

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Originally Posted by katze

afaik we've never played together (you did mentor me in a game once tho) and you're someone i more know based off of reputation than anything

and i think ur pretty weaksauce so far, this post included

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Magical missiles fired!

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

i'm talking about the way you're playing with orientation to other people

there's a blurry line between "feels alone" and "would feel somewhat alone as a wolf slash not comfortable enough with partners that they still think/talk/act in a way that's somewhat separate from the rest of the group"

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Interesting.

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Originally Posted by Sleep

i have a second wolf read i will not be disclosing at this point in time

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Is it disclosed yet?

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

ur pretty weaksauce so far too (based on a weirdly arbitrary view of your meta)

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He go so hard he probably town.

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

:bullseye: better emotes
:bullseye: better multiquote function
:bullseye: chill games where people aren't mad at everyone by mid day 1 for daring to wolf read them


the org goat

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*thank*

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

I kinda feel like neb coming in while newcomb/ladd/zack have expressed concerns on me and initiating a discussion on it while calling me town is pretty towny but i'm trying really hard to cut out "reads based solely on how the player handles talking about me" cause it's the type of thing I can get turned around on pretty easily. Feels right still

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Makes sense?

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Originally Posted by katze

thats how i feel about your iso:clown:

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lmao

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

I think sunbae has been like obvs villagery for like the whole game, someone explain to me why I'm wrong because I see quite a few people saying I'm wrong. Not like "HK you are wrong" but lots of "sunbae can absolutely be a wolf"

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This is towny in a way I struggle putting into my vocabulary :p

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

My first instinct upon seeing the first half is that Zack and Csargo are paired again and hastily voting me out of the Fear of my immense analytical prowess. Here's some thread revenge.

[...]

Preemptively, why?

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top part is spicy

to answer the question it was a joke post

for the sole purpose of being contrary im going to call that wall a lazy villager wall

monty's wall of regrets is everything i'd hoped for and more

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Originally Posted by katze

for the sole purpose of being contrary im going to call that wall a lazy villager wall

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it actually doesnt trigger my gag reflex when it comes to quote stripe walls, which is a lot of replies making irrelevant/conversational things. its at least p focused on game content stuff. idk that its villagy but i dont find it wolfy

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Originally Posted by hollowkatt

yeah no problem.

My OG vote on Katze was 100% a shitpost vote.
People started piling onto katze tho and that felt weird to me. Like if they're a wolf then it's great, but if they're town a runaway wagon on them to start the game seems like a good opportunity for a wolf or two to get on and try to hang there for a chop today.
That's the basis for the v read there, basically that too many people were like "hmm yes katze is a good vote at this stage of the game".
I subscribe to the theory that early game wagons have lasting impact on the rest of the game through a kind of communal thread memory and that an early game wagon like that on a villager is one way to put a potential strong village player into the POE to make them either post out of it or allow for "bad votes" later in the game by calling back to it.

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As for why the shade on this post? I think I figured it out and it is the middle part also combined with their explaining why they have a village read on katze. It just feels like a weak reason for giving katze a town pass versus looking into content and finding that out yourself as the bolded just implies bad intentions of everyone that was on the katze vote in a game where there is no majority vote

there's an aloofness to newcomb's posts right now that i have 0 idea how to process

that mont wall sure does exist

i mean i agree that its maybe not the most ~logically sound~ reasoning but i feel like he actually believes it

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Originally Posted by Sleep

i mean i agree that its maybe not the most ~logically sound~ reasoning but i feel like he actually believes it

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the was wrt #855

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

:angel::angel:

hk, sunbae


:angel:

sleep, newcomb


:beatnik2:
cuth, csar, dobby, rask


:pimp2:

benneh, ladd, katze, monstr


:pimp2::pimp2:

cape, blade, monty


:pimp2::pimp2::pimp2::pimp2::pimp2:

zack

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Originally Posted by Csargo

:deal:

Vote:Montmorency

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Originally Posted by zack

:cool3:
zack

:2thumbsup: (villagy enough for d1)
newcomb
katze
cape
hollowkatt

:rtwyes: (slightly above null)
benneh
cuth
ladd
sleep

:hide: (null)
csargo
winston
rask

~:handball: (mostly not here but also didnt particularly care for their posts, slightly below null)
dobby
monstr

:boxedin: (sorry bronana)
sunbae

:damnmate:
ender/bladescape
monty

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All within minutes. Could be WH distancing (notice leans), but there is another explanation.

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Originally Posted by katze

@Newcomb: if i'm not mistaken, you have a bit of a policy to not interact with people you wolfread, right? i'm assuming thats why you're kinda talking around me atp

if that's the case then i would prefer you not do that, at least for a bit?

i don't reallllly think your scumread on me is in good faith, but regardless of that i feel like more and more people who know you better than i know you are calling you a villager, some with a decent bit of confidence, and if they're right i feel like it'd be better for both of us to find some common ground

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Bad katze interaction with NC. NC's #389 response is pleasing. Great WIFOMs.

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Originally Posted by Cuthilius

i was repeating to zack what katze said to newc for effect

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I'm realizing that Zack and Katze are anagrams. Does it mean something?

Also, now I remember that katze is the one who claimed to be GH, not Sleep.

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

I'm going to point out that last time I was actually wolf with you (Hello remember when I literally cased you and got you voted out and I was red?) I was townread and no one thought I was struggling to get into thread.

This honestly feels a VERY weird take on me given that the game I'm talking about was the last time HK and I played together. For him to seriously believe I would struggle to get my groove on as wolf is...

Kinda honestly wolfy.

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Your story leaves me in the opposite.

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Great example:
I once left Pizza alive all game as wolf to see if I could fool him til the end. (I couldn't, he caught me near lylo, but it was fun as hell.)

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You had a choice and you let him live? What are you, a Bond villain?!?

Vote: Ender

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

- It seems the people with a lot of experience with Mont have them as a wolf so I guess I will as well. It also excites me that my pew pew read of Cape/Mont w/w could be the case still.

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What do you remember about me from our Zack game a year ago? You were N1ed.

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Originally Posted by ladd

I read a couple of monty games on this forums and he seems to have no problems posting as a wolf. can the orgers elaborate on why they think he is a wolf from his 3 posts?

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you going after monty was spooky, then I saw the other orgers thought he was a wolf too so maybe I was missing some meta but from a quick skim of 2 of his games he seems like a perfectly competent wolf so i dont realy see whats up

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Which games though.

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Originally Posted by zack

just for the record, this isn't an ironclad meta-read or anything, it's partly to see how he reacts / light a fire under his bum. (if ladd is a wolf he may have tmi'd monty town in #554 :curtain:)

more generally, v possible we are v/v and having a hard time communicating with each other

also this is somewhat tangential but i think newcomb is probably Just A Villager here

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So bomb ladd.

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

there's an aloofness to newcomb's posts right now that i have 0 idea how to process

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just call it scummy?

:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

just call it scummy?

:shrug:

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i'm not sure it is otherwise i would

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

The lack of appreciation for my lyrical masterpiece makes me sad.

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man i thought Kendrick was gonna be the thing I looked forward too the most when it came to lyrical masterpieces :hail:

those are definitely monty walls :book2:

some of newcomb's more recent posts today are meh

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

i'm not sure it is otherwise i would

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who won't you chop today?

the fact I don't think katze had a good reason to unvote me worries me

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Originally Posted by Cape90

the fact I don't think katze had a good reason to unvote me worries me

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go on...

Tally as of #868 (editing in)

Players Votes
Enderwiggin 3 zack, Raskolnikov, Montmorency
Newcomb 3 nebjiamn, Enderwiggin, Sleep
Montmorency 2 Csargo, Sunbae
Sleep 2 ladd, Newcomb
Raskolnikov 2 Cuthillius, Monstrdude
Csargo 2 Cape90, hollowkatt
zack 1 Winston Hughes
hollowkatt 1 Dobby
Sunbae 0
katze 0
ladd 0
Cuthillius 0
Dobby 0
Monstrdude 0
nebjiamn 0
Cape90 0
Winston Hughes 0

some of cape's posts remind me a bit of 2016/2017 era MU Zack

no i wont comment on this further

:curtain:

I haven't processed the Monstr farrago yet, but my vote there is fine for the moment. What's the tally ya bums?

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

After coming back to it, you may be right.

As I said earlier, I think I just kneejerk reacted to the first post ruining my happy fun meme time.

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Hmph.

Anyway, recap: HK suss Ender suss NC?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zack

I disagree that newcomb has done very little

I've played with Csargo, Monty, and Winston countless times. Csargo and Monty have done close to nothing, and while that's maybe not too out of character for Csargo on d1 he can do more, and Monty/Winston are almost always far more active and engaged than this

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You sure tho? I had 16 posts D1 of Mass Effect, half of them around EOD. This is how I do.

But the characterization does feel in good faith.

If you were a sorceror, what would happen if you ensorcelled Cuth?