I was aware of the theta- and phi-thing, although I never heard of something similar applying to the chi. Thanks for clearing that up. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
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I was aware of the theta- and phi-thing, although I never heard of something similar applying to the chi. Thanks for clearing that up. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
I think the chi change is very minimal compared to the other two, but they are all lumped together as being affected similarly during this time.
This idea's probably been kicked around a lot,and is definitely off-topic-so sorry in advance; but why is the Greek faction called "Koinon Hellenon" anyway? That's clearly the genitive plural form of Koinos Hellenos, right? So they've effectively named the faction "Of the Common Greek Men." Seems a bit silly.
Of course it's possible that the faction name was intended as a neuter singular- that is, "the Common Greek thing." But what thingthe name is referring to would elude me. Perhaps the mythical state of Unified Greece itself, though that would be feminine, I think...
Again, these ideas must have been brought up before by someone as obsessive and pedantic about these things as myself. Sorry if this is too far from this thread's stated topic.
Ted
Oh, and hello in Attic and Koine is "Chaire" or "Chairete" if addressing a group. It literally means "rejoice."
This thread made my head explode.
Erm, no. "hellenos" is not a nominative in the first place, the nominative is hellen. Koinon is the neuter of the adjective koinos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategos Semprini
The neuter of an adjective can be used to denote an abstract notion. "To koinon"= "community, commonwealth", "to barbarikon"=all barbarians-non Greeks.Quote:
Of course it's possible that the faction name was intended as a neuter singular- that is, "the Common Greek thing." But what thingthe name is referring to would elude me. Perhaps the mythical state of Unified Greece itself, though that would be feminine, I think...
Koinon Hellenon is supposed to be as I understand it the "Commonwealth of the Greeks" (hellenon=genitive plural of hellen).
Wondering about "Koinon Hellenon"? Read the faction description and history on the website.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs
EL OH EL. im laughing right now.
this is like that stupid post with the 100 pages of some idiot argueing that the greek hopolite spears are too long by like 2 feet or somthing.
like why would u pick at peoples work like this?
It also means "Goodbye"; and if you encounter its participium it may also means "good riddance".Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategos Semprini
Well I tried my best to find out and check the words and phrases I found wrong
I have the 1st list to discuss :sweatdrop: :2thumbsup:
1. “stauroma xulikon” The 1st word seems fine as it is many texts. The 2nd word “xulikon” is “not present”, mostly is used the world “xulinon” (ΞΥΛΙΝΟΝ)
2. The phrase: “polis symmache autonome” has a grammatical error as the adjective “symmachos” is the same for both masculine and feminine (ΗΟ/ΗΕ(-/Η) ΣΥΜΜΑΧΟΣ)
3. “chalkeon” blacksmith this word is referred as something which has to do with the man who works in a blacksmith. “chalkourgeion” (ΧΑΛΚΟΥΡΓΕΙΟΝ) is best referred to the building.
4. Well this is a phrase with lots of discussion…
“choma kapelikon” merchant port. The 1st “choma” means soil, earth, mud but not a port… and even it means it is wrong written, “choma” is a bit late Greek word and it is the same in modern Greek. The original is a 3rd declension irregular noun and in nominative is “chous” (ΤΟ ΧΟΥΣ) genitive (ΤΟΥ Χ(ΟΥ-->ΟΙ-->Ω)ΜΑΤΟΣ). The 2nd word it is a little controversial. It partially means something that has to do with the retail trade but more often it has also a negative aspect for whom/which refers to. This because the term “techne kapeleia” (ΤΕΧΝΕ(/Η) ΚΑΠΕ(/Η)ΛΕΙΑ) often meant the ability of buying cheap and selling very expensive in order to gain great profits. Nowadays holds only the negative aspect and it is so negative that one who’s called “kapelos” (ΚΑΠΗΛΟΣ) is prosecuted by the law (often because he was caught selling ancient statues). For a small merchant port “emporikos naustathmos” (ΕΜΠΟΡΙΚΟΣ ΝΑΥΣΤΑΘΜΟΣ) fits well.
5. This phrase confused me…”leimon agonion” “leimon” (ΛΕΙΜΩΝ) means a grassland with flowers and sheep herding like in some rural photos. For a phrase with a translation as game field the word for the field suits better to the word “pedion” (ΠΕΔΙΟΝ). As for the 2nd word…I couldn’t understand but guessing of what I think it is from the noun “agon” (ΑΓΩΝ) and in genitive becomes “agonon” (ΑΓΩΝΩΝ)
6. “phrourion” garrison the word “phrourion” best fits for a building like a fortress or a citadel. Although if we want to describe the guard the word “phroura” (ΦΡΟΥΡΑ) is better.
7. “purotheke” aa ok nothing to say…by the way nice convention...
8. “sitoboleion” has a scarce repeat in the texts. Mostly it is used the word “ sitobolon” (ΣΙΤΟΒΟΛΩΝ), my home region Thessalia is called “sitobolon” because has a large farmland.
9. “Doron Aroures” grant of land…well “doron” (ΔΩΡΟΝ) means gift, “dorea” means grant , “aroures” has a grammatical error because it is “aroura” nominative and genitive “arouras” (ΑΡΟΥΡΑΣ) like “choras” (ΧΩΡΑΣ). Only Herodotus would write “aroures” because wrote in ionic.
10. “syllogos strateumatos xoriton” well why not “syllogos strateumatos perioikon”?? As in Athens…
11. “Rhodios Kolossos” …sounds better as “Kolossos Rhodo(u)” (ΚΟΛΟΣΣΟΣ ΡΟΔΟ(Υ)).
12. “Tichea lithea” well “lithina” (ΛΙΘΙΝΑ) instead of “lithea” is the right.
13. “Neorion” is not a military port… it is a place for mending/fixing ships like a dockyard. Maybe “polemikos limen” (ΠΟΛΕΜΙΚΟΣ ΛΙΜΕ(/Η)Ν) or “limen neon makron” (ΛΙΜΕ(/Η)Ν ΝΕ(/Η)ΩΝ ΜΑΚΡΩΝ).
14. “pezhetairoi” …hmmm…maybe “pezetairoi” because “z” is a double consonant.
15. Not “romaios invasion” but “romaion or romaike invasion” (ΡΩΜΑΙΩΝ),(ΡΩΜΑΙΚΕ(/Η)).
16. “Asklepieos” the noun in nominative is “Asklepios” (ΑΣΚΛΗ(/Ε)Π(Ε)ΙΟΣ) and in genitive “asklep(e)io(u)” (ΑΣΚΛΗ(/Ε)Π(Ε)ΙΟ(Υ)). It is found at some buildings.
17. “Zoanon Dios” well the word is “xoanon” but it is wrong because “xoanon” is a wooden statue (like in French the word “mannequin”). The right is to use the noun “agalma” especially for Zeus made by gold and ivory.
These words are found in faction of "koinon hellenon" and "Makedonia"
I'd like to see many opinions. I'm working on some others.:sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop::beam: :beam:
id like to have studied greek very hard at the highschool, very interesting, that gave me the wish to take back some old greek manuals... but that give me a sort of terror, remembering my highschool days... oi antropoi...
ok, sorry for the intromission in this discussion... i leave it to people experct
I'll comment in greater detail later; but for now I'd like to point out one thing: Asklepeios is correct. The thing is, the name has been spelled differently in a number of sources - and Asklepeios occurs frequently enough not to change it.
The issue with Xoanon/Zoanon has been pointed out earlier; and I IIRC the word was changed to Eikon instead. Mostly because you can search far and wide but not find the word Xoanon in Strabo - at least not if you use the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae as your source... :juggle:
I've written wrongly "Asklepios" instead of "Asklepeios"...but it is "Asklepeiou" and my source is the epigraphs of "asklepeion" in Trikala where I've lived for 18 years 30 meters from them and it is the greatest as may I know.No I don't know these sources. I wait your detailed answer.:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Xoana are not exclusively wooden, though some authors use them in just that situation. There are a number of examples where it is closer to 'cult statue' than 'wooden statue'. Specifically a xoanon is a cult statue, sometimes made of wood but sometimes out of stone or ivory also. If you insist that sources be provided I will find them but I've got other things to do too. You list a number of things that may be rendered one way or the other, but there's nothing wrong with the way we have them. The Xoana and Kolossos entries are cases in point. I hope that we can find something in there that needs changing for sure though, just so we can say we are willing to change things.
edit: I will say that while lithea is correct, that more sources from the Hellenistic period do seem to prefer lithina, so that is one where it would be better for us to use the alternative you suggest.
A couple of observations:
1. "teichea" is rather poetic with an uncontracted ending; "teiche" would be the ordinary plural.
2. pezhetairoi: the "h" is supposed to be the rough breathing found in "hetairoi". I cannot say if the rough breathing really survived in compound words, but it is not written at least after teh 4th cent. BC afaik. So an accurate transiliteration would be pezetairoi.
3. I cannot find Asklepeios in the dictionary, if such a form is attested it most likely is due to etacism, the tendency in koine for ei, oi, eta etc to be pronounced as |i|; the name of the divinity is "Asklepios" afaik. "Asklepeion" is a temple to Asclepios, perhaps that's what was meant?
4."aroures" as a genitive would be ionian dialect indeed, not attic.
5. "chalkeon", if it is found as such in game is a typo; chalkeion is indeed a blacksmith's shop.
Don't have the files open in front of me here, but since we often use adjectival (and less common in that respect than their matching nouns) forms, it is possible it was meant for the adj. Asklepieios.
Chalkeon is the first entry I've got in my dictionary for a blacksmith's shop, attested in Homer but also examples from Hellenistic sources (Ap. Rh.). Chalkeion is there too
Dunno, my version of LSJ doesn't have "chalkeon" but as neuter of the adjective "chalkeos"(=made of bronze). Could be a really old version, I should look up a new one in the library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
Sorry I really suck at spelling today. :embarassed:
Asklepieios is what I meant; and IIRC is what's written in the EB descriptions. For reference:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...y=1&lang=greek
Teiche; you are correct there Teiche is just better.
(Though I should note, that it is correct Ionic.)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...try%3D%2371706Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs
Bingo. I'll get my axe ready.Quote:
2. The phrase: “polis symmache autonome” has a grammatical error as the adjective “symmachos” is the same for both masculine and feminine (ΗΟ/ΗΕ(-/Η) ΣΥΜΜΑΧΟΣ)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...try%3D%2371706Quote:
3. “chalkeon” blacksmith this word is referred as something which has to do with the man who works in a blacksmith. “chalkourgeion” (ΧΑΛΚΟΥΡΓΕΙΟΝ) is best referred to the building.
A bit complex to answer quickly - and I am in a hurry.Quote:
4. Well this is a phrase with lots of discussion…
“choma kapelikon” merchant port. The 1st “choma” means soil, earth, mud but not a port… and even it means it is wrong written, “choma” is a bit late Greek word and it is the same in modern Greek. The original is a 3rd declension irregular noun and in nominative is “chous” (ΤΟ ΧΟΥΣ) genitive (ΤΟΥ Χ(ΟΥ-->ΟΙ-->Ω)ΜΑΤΟΣ). The 2nd word it is a little controversial. It partially means something that has to do with the retail trade but more often it has also a negative aspect for whom/which refers to. This because the term “techne kapeleia” (ΤΕΧΝΕ(/Η) ΚΑΠΕ(/Η)ΛΕΙΑ) often meant the ability of buying cheap and selling very expensive in order to gain great profits. Nowadays holds only the negative aspect and it is so negative that one who’s called “kapelos” (ΚΑΠΗΛΟΣ) is prosecuted by the law (often because he was caught selling ancient statues). For a small merchant port “emporikos naustathmos” (ΕΜΠΟΡΙΚΟΣ ΝΑΥΣΤΑΘΜΟΣ) fits well.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...ntry%3D%231101Quote:
5. This phrase confused me…”leimon agonion” “leimon” (ΛΕΙΜΩΝ) means a grassland with flowers and sheep herding like in some rural photos. For a phrase with a translation as game field the word for the field suits better to the word “pedion” (ΠΕΔΙΟΝ). As for the 2nd word…I couldn’t understand but guessing of what I think it is from the noun “agon” (ΑΓΩΝ) and in genitive becomes “agonon” (ΑΓΩΝΩΝ)
A bit abstract but it's there...
Which is what the phrourion is 9 times out of 10. If we're talking about buildings... ~;)Quote:
6. “phrourion” garrison the word “phrourion” best fits for a building like a fortress or a citadel. Although if we want to describe the guard the word “phroura” (ΦΡΟΥΡΑ) is better.
Quote:
7. “purotheke” aa ok nothing to say…by the way nice convention...
Quote:
8. “sitoboleion” has a scarce repeat in the texts. Mostly it is used the word “ sitobolon” (ΣΙΤΟΒΟΛΩΝ), my home region Thessalia is called “sitobolon” because has a large farmland.
9. “Doron Aroures” grant of land…well “doron” (ΔΩΡΟΝ) means gift, “dorea” means grant , “aroures” has a grammatical error because it is “aroura” nominative and genitive “arouras” (ΑΡΟΥΡΑΣ) like “choras” (ΧΩΡΑΣ). Only Herodotus would write “aroures” because wrote in ionic.
10. “syllogos strateumatos xoriton” well why not “syllogos strateumatos perioikon”?? As in Athens…
11. “Rhodios Kolossos” …sounds better as “Kolossos Rhodo(u)” (ΚΟΛΟΣΣΟΣ ΡΟΔΟ(Υ)).
Commented on already.Quote:
12. “Tichea lithea” well “lithina” (ΛΙΘΙΝΑ) instead of “lithea” is the right.
It is a dockyard in fact: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...try%3D%2370591Quote:
13. “Neorion” is not a military port… it is a place for mending/fixing ships like a dockyard. Maybe “polemikos limen” (ΠΟΛΕΜΙΚΟΣ ΛΙΜΕ(/Η)Ν) or “limen neon makron” (ΛΙΜΕ(/Η)Ν ΝΕ(/Η)ΩΝ ΜΑΚΡΩΝ).
We try to ensure you could pronounce it without knowing how we derived at it. So to remove the 'h' is not a very good idea. Similarly we write -ph- rather than -f- or -p- when dealing with a phi.Quote:
14. “pezhetairoi” …hmmm…maybe “pezetairoi” because “z” is a double consonant.
It is a bit difficult to get Romaios etc. right; specifically when we consider that it's a matter of applying language a on language b - something which is really hard to get it looking pretty. (And never really correct for that matter.)Quote:
15. Not “romaios invasion” but “romaion or romaike invasion” (ΡΩΜΑΙΩΝ),(ΡΩΜΑΙΚΕ(/Η)).
16. “Asklepieos” the noun in nominative is “Asklepios” (ΑΣΚΛΗ(/Ε)ΠΕΙΟΣ) and in genitive “asklepeio(u)” (ΑΣΚΛΗ(/Ε)ΠΕΙΟ(Υ)). It is found at some buildings.
17. “Zoanon Dios” well the word is “xoanon” but it is wrong because “xoanon” is a wooden statue (like in French the word “mannequin”). The right is to use the noun “agalma” especially for Zeus made by gold and ivory.
These words are found in faction of "koinon hellenon" and "Makedonia"
I'd like to see many opinions. I'm working on some others.:sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop::beam: :beam:
16 and 17 were commented on already.
My LSJ gives "Asklepieios" as an adjective(=belonging to Asklepios) and it makes sense, it definitely looks like an adjective. I have never that I can recall of seen the name of the divinity as anything else than Asklepios/Asklapios, depending on the dialect.
So? The only instances in EB I could retrieve quickly where the word Asklepieios was used for (the Asklepieia) *are* things dedicated to Asklepios. And the name for those buildings is spelled differently at times... :shrug:
Ok, I just thought we were talking about the god here, I don't remember where it is used in game; if it is as an adjective, its fine.
Aisklepieion (Sanctuary of Asklepios) -- that's what I found in the export_buildings.txt file ~:)
"leimon" (ΗΟ ΛΕΙΜΩΝ) masculine.
Well this is for everyone...searching the dictionary only doesn't get you to the point. You have to be some kind of expirienced in the language. Tradition,habits are not transmitted through dictionaries and some words from above were carried through the centuries with the same meaning.An appereance of a certain word in a text won't mean that we can use it where we want. It depends to the writer and the instance. e.g. Thoukydides sometimes writes the letter "Ξ" instead of the letter "Σ" in some words...thus it doesn't mean that we can write these words with "Ξ"...and so on.
The best we can do is to write the more common and stable words without showing strange phrases...or trying to make significant "dangerous" diversities.
I'll try to post the next list tomorrow or later...
I so have got to study ancient Greek as a side language course when I get to my university. I am missing out on a whole world of knowledge here. I still don't really get genetive/ablative/zeusknowswhatelse.
I read your your reply Blitzkrieg....I see you missed the joke...I know that they will come in the next patch (knew it for months now)-it was just a joke to lighten things up, so please kindly not act that way:furious3:
@ pezhetairoi: I noticed you were confused so I want to help: genitive is the possessive. eg: "of the man"; ablative is means method, or position/direction. eg: "by/with/out/in/on the man" (on the man, hehe). now in greek, latin, and even arabic, the form of the word chages with each case, so homo=man in latin, is hominis in the genitive, and homine in the ablative. eg "cataphractarius hominis romanum interfecit cum contu/conto" hominis is=of the man" , and contu/conto is ablative, the sentance being "the cataphract of man (I know-makes no sense) killed the roman with a contus(kontos)"; notice the words have changed form, and there is only 1 preposition (cum)
if anyone else would like to further clarify/ correct, feel free to(no snide remarks please-seen enough)
here are some baloons:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:
Mr expert here, I hear. :laugh4: Sorry I just could not resist. Suppose, just suppose, an entirely hypothetical question for of course this could not be the truth..., that Agonion were in fact gen.pl. neuter? You know... Field of Games ? Nah, totally impossible...Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs
----------------
Okay, I know you don't know me; and my guess is you never really noticed but I am in fact one of the newer people on EB who does the ancient Greek. Now I didn't do the descriptions; though I have been sanitizing the export_units.txt file and have poked around in the export_VnVs.txt file a bit -- instead my field is writing prebattle speeches and stuff like that. Check out the Voicemod Preview if you want to convince yourself.
Ohh come on don't take this personally...You know I'm not an expert.
I just say my opinion. I don't know what you do and in fact I don't care. I tried to write down some things which I think that they are wrong and they need some kind of discussion...But it is always better saying why sth is wrong or right and why...not just showing "dry" proofs. I'm not at all ironic.
Fair enough. I don't take it, exactly, personally. But I just found it mildly amusing, in a strange way, that's all.
(If I hadn't I'd be using whole different smiley ~:))
For the most part I have been replying to you by means of reference for the simple reason there is hardly anything else to say. Why we use Xulikon? Well, we'd need a word which means 'wooden' which was used at that time and which is ancient Greek. And 'Xulikon' so happens to fullfill all of these requirements. In what way saying this is different from showing you a dictionary entry, IDK. Apart from the fact people tend to trust their own eyes better than someone else's, and the dictionary is a nice way of circumventing issues like 'you say this but I maintain it is not correct' -- both ways. Heck, I've stood corrected often as well here ... ~;)
No need to use the "cum" before an ablative to show the means by which something is achieved, a simple ablative suffices (think bi+jarr in Arabic). The "cum" plus the ablative is used to denote "in the company of something" (e.g. "they fled with their children"=cum liberis, think ma'+ jarr ;) )Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahim
Tellos, what Georgivs means by "you have to be some kind of expirienced in the language" is probably "have a feel for the language" i.e. what word to use in a given context; just as you don't address a pharmacist as an "apothecary" nowadays, because you have a feel that this word is antiquated and not to be used outside the context of an archaic or deliberately archaizing speech.
"agonion" is given as the neuter of the adjective "agonios" in my LSJ (=belonging to the games, as adjective of Zeus e.g.). I don't see how it makes sense with "leimon" which is masculine. I get the sense that some times you have been going for some rare forms of words and phrases (like "xulikon" in place of "xulinon"), here "pedion agonon" for "gaming field" would be the simplest way of saying it; "leimon" is really a pasture, "pedion" is more generally "a field, an expanse of land".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero
I'd like to stress I haven't been going for anything (I didn't write the building titles); all I have done is verifying/falsifying the complaints (which was about the use of agonion - it not being perceived as a proper word) against what the language allows for. And in this case, Agonion may also be derived as follows:Quote:
"agonion" is given as the neuter of the adjective "agonios" in my LSJ (=belonging to the games, as adjective of Zeus e.g.). I don't see how it makes sense with "leimon" which is masculine. I get the sense that some times you have been going for some rare forms of words and phrases (like "xulikon" in place of "xulinon"), here "pedion agonon" for "gaming field" would be the simplest way of saying it; "leimon" is really a pasture, "pedion" is more generally "a field, an expanse of land".
Agonion -> nom/acc.sg.n. -> Agonia -> nom/acc.pl.n. -> Agonion -> gen.pl.n.
Which would translate into "of things belonging/related to games". In conjunction with the word leimon (which means meadow and is indeed not the best word here...) this would result into 'meadow [field] of games'. In Pedion Agonion, though I think it is indeed the correct form, Agonion has an ambiguous meaning: both as singular (game field) and plural (field of games & other stuff related to games)
So the list of changes, for now, is the following:
1) Pedion instead of Leimon.
2) Symmachos instead of Symmache.