Question About Hoplites

A few points people seem not to be grasping about this. First a typical picture of hoplite combat...

https://img237.imageshack.us/img237/...lfosnq9.th.jpg

The spear for one isn't held like they did in 300. It's used more like if one was stabbing with a knife; it's a pretty powerful jab and just as accurate as any one-handed underarm once you get the hang of it.

People are saying it's dangerous and can hit people in the face if the spear was used overhand. They seem to forget that it is probably as dangerous in that respect when you use a spear underhanded. Especially considering that pretty much everyone had some form of head protection and not everyone owned a piece of armour. The spear itself would be at an acute angle pointing upwards anyway. In any case it would only really be a problem for the first rows, the others could hold their spear normally as they pushed forward.

The spear-butt itself can obviously be used to rest. You weren't expected to be in that pose for the entire battle, or hold your shield for that matter. The combat itself would be rather short, and most probably not all in one single bout. Not only wouldn't the whole line engage at the same time, you would probably be able to rest and rotate at least the front ranks before joining battle again. Another thing people are probably missing is that this piece enables you to use the spear farther to the back due to its weight.

You can argue that the shield would protect the back rows (what about the front ones?) from the spear-butt, but if they did indeed push forward with an underhand grip, the spears would have to pass through some space, and then you're breaking up the formation and loosing shock value. Same thing applies to the front ranks - to use an underhand grip you have to open the shield wall a bit, something that you can take advantage. The trajectory of the spear itself would mean that you would be aiming at the most protected part of the other guy, the shield.

As for cavalry, you can hardly apply the same principle here. It's a whole new ball game.

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Originally Posted by J.Alco

Personally, I'm also sick and tired of Katana fanboys. Good God what I would give to see some decent Bastard sword fighting on TV or in the movies some day.

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Testify!

Granted I don't have an extensive knowledge of ancient Japanese swordplay,but a logical mind knows that a katana has its limitations,just like a xiphos,gladius,falcata,or any other weapon,both past and present.

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

You can argue that the shield would protect the back rows (what about the front ones?) from the spear-butt, but if they did indeed push forward with an underhand grip, the spears would have to pass through some space, and then you're breaking up the formation and loosing shock value. Same thing applies to the front ranks - to use an underhand grip you have to open the shield wall a bit, something that you can take advantage. The trajectory of the spear itself would mean that you would be aiming at the most protected part of the other guy, the shield.

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And to add, having your spear-butt constantly bang against your mates' shields/cuirasses is somewhat unlikely to improve its handling and wieldability - doubly so in the already very cramped maneuvering space that would be available with an underhand grip between the closely spaced aspi (sp?).

We're talking about like a third or so of the total lenght behind the grip point, after all. This ain't no Medieval couched lance.

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The spear-butt itself can obviously be used to rest.
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Another thing people are probably missing is that this piece enables you to use the spear farther to the back due to its weight.

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In addition, it gives you a passable spare spearhead. All kinds of uses for that, too.

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

The spear for one isn't held like they did in 300.

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When I watched the movie I was like "What the...?" They used an over-head, inverted arm technique of sorts. I always laughed at how easy it would have been for any Persian soldier to pierce their unarmored spear arm with a spear, thus rendering that soldier practically inoperable.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

aspi (sp?).

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Aspides. :wink:

:sweatdrop:

it's asspides! (INSULTING PUN)
ayce hacked onto my computer! come and stop the EB council of 10!

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Originally Posted by Watchman

And to add, having your spear-butt constantly bang against your mates' shields/cuirasses is somewhat unlikely to improve its handling and wieldability - doubly so in the already very cramped maneuvering space that would be available with an underhand grip between the closely spaced aspi (sp?).

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Hehe, can you say "broken spear"? How about "hoplites with only swords are useless"? ~;)

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Originally Posted by Watchman

We're talking about like a third or so of the total lenght behind the grip point, after all. This ain't no Medieval couched lance.
In addition, it gives you a passable spare spearhead. All kinds of uses for that, too.

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Well yeah. One of the main uses people figure it had was to finish off any guys that would be lying on the floor once the phalanx started moving forward.

Well, it's arguably nicer than just trampling the poor sods to death...

...unless they didn't stab their spears into the USUAL places. *wince*

*poke*

*ouch*

Agreed...I simply don't buy the "spear-butt as anchor-point in the ground for better defense" theory. I would imagine that, in the chaotic clash between phalanxes as the first few rows are getting squeezed together, alot of spears would snap in two. A second weapon housed at the back is a nice way to deal with this. And its use to finish off those that have been trampled underfoot seems more than logical to me...but nasty and painful indeed...

I think the general opinion is that when the shieldwalls crash together a lot of people die in the initial clash, lots of spears are broken and then it's just a Rugby scrum.

I doubt they'd die in the crash. Just get a lot of bruises. Unless some hoplites got lucky that their spears hit the enemy formation at the right location to sever a carotid, or puncture a heart... or rape a face.