The Magnaura

Vissarionas has been waiting impatiently for someone more senior to make what he feels is an important point, and his jitters finally overcome his restraint, so he rises to speak.

If the plan to reclaim old territories is put forward under the idea that it is more practical than capturing Antioch or Adana, I have to say I find the idea quite suspect. Antioch is a city rich in trade and unheld by any organized nation. The rebels in power there are quite weak, and our ships and troops already present in the region would be years travelling to the provinces listed in the Edict when a journey of mere months would take them to Antioch.

Every man here wishes to see the Empire rebuilt to it's place of glory, but a constraint on our conquests will, on purely practical grounds, hinder that effort more than help. I can only presume that many of the settlements on this list were, forgive me for stating the obvious, lost with light defense precisely because a stronger defense was unjustified by their relative worth. If we pour forth our armies taking back lands that were lost because they had little to offer the Empire in the first place then what purpose will all our blood and effort have served but to invite those lands to be lost again?

I am a new man here, and very junior I know, but let us have some common sense in our proposals of law. Aid the commanders in the field, rather than constrain them, and these good men will bring glory to the Basileus and the Empire!

So saying Vissarionas colors faintly and returns to his seat without looking about to see how his speech was received.

:egypt:

With all due respect, Strator ek Naksou, I believe you are ignoring the larger picture. The issue not the ease with which the province can be reconquered, but whether such a conquest is useful to the Basileus at this point in time. I do not doubt that the Order of St. John could capture Antioch if it were given the resources to do so, but such an act would actively injure the Empire. That city is very large and it has no great love of the Orthodox faith. Simply keeping it from rioting would require a very large garrison which will sap our treasury at a time when that coin could be better spent elsewhere. We must first obtain those settlements which will be easy to defend and provide immediate benefit to the Empire. Adana is at least a theoretically plausible consideration, since it, like Bari, would require only a small garrison to keep order. Antioch itself is an entirely unreasonable objective simply because it would drain more from the Empire than it would give back. We could conquer several provinces with the resources required just to keep order in Antioch.

I was merely correcting a mischaracterization of Antioch's situation, Senator Diogenes. T'was not my intent to paint a complete picture of the situation, though fortunately the Senator ek Lesvou has already done a good job of that.

Antioch is rich, strategically located and can be held rather cheaply. All me need to keep the locals from rebelling are large numbers of soldiers to keep them in line, and should our current forces prove insufficient that task could be handled by peasents trained on Cyprus. It would not be the most difficult or time-consuming conquest proposed thus far.

By no means was I suggesting that Antioch or Adana are not worthy objectives. I simply stated that between our heartlands and the Levant, there exists the power of the Turks that prevent easy reinforcements from anywhere but Cyprus. And the island of Cyprus is itself quite removed from the imperial center of power. But if the Order can take it, they will find no objections on my part. After all, those who defy the Empire deserve their fate. Bari on the other hand, is quite close. Even if Epirus refuses to heed imperial edicts at the present, that is not a situation which will last for long.

There are dark undertone to the way which Anastasios pronounces those last words. A few of the older senators shuffle uneasily on their seats.

Markianos stands and speaks, mostly facing toward the Order as he does so.

I would ask the respected members of the Order of St. John to have patience. The mission they have taken upon themselves is commendable, and I fully support it, but it is impractical to undertake immediately. It has not been ten years since the Turks overran Anatolia, and only slightly longer since the Slavs did likewise in the west. In both the east and west, we find ourselves barely clinging to the sea. In the east, mighty Nicaea is all that stands; some speak of establishing footholds in Italy and the Levant, and fail to realize that a foothold is but all we have in all of Asia! In the west, our cities are isolated. There are no roads to connect them, no forts to guard them. The Slavs sit in our hinterlands, and we all look to the sea as our only means of connection to Constantinople. Even the sea is not secure, with foreign powers and rebels sitting on our very own islands!

All is not lost, however. The enemies closest to us are weak and fragmented, and have found their cities listed in an edict of conquest by the wise Khristophoros Diogenis. These cities must be brought to our control without delay, because beyond them lie strong and united foreign powers. If you are not convinced, Senators, imagine for a moment the Turks occupying Canakkale, and the Hungarians the fort at Sofia. Both are within a weeks' march from Constantinople itself. Do you really want to put our great city in that position? The forts I speak of here are our very last line of defense. There is nothing between them and Constantinople and our other great cities. And yet, we do not currently occupy them, and yet, I do not hear calls for their immediate conquest. I must say that I am surprised.

I assume all of you who were not already in Constantinople have come here by ship. This is because there are no land links between our cities. Our Empire is a collection of cities on the coast, and I do challenge anyone to explain to me just how that is in any way a defensible and sustainable position. It may be if the Imperial Navy is strong, but any city could be attacked at will, and would have to rely on support coming from the sea. The Navy should be kept strong, but we now have a chance to secure the hinterlands of our cities as a layer of protection, and we only have a short time to do it, before the Seljuks, Hungarians, and Venetians themselves conquer those independent cities and forts that now separate us.

Yes, there are many lands to reconquer. It is no secret that our Empire has declined in the recent centuries. But at this time, we must be united and act quickly to protect the very core cities of the Greeks, their heart, which is all that remains. If we should do this, then the Lord will grant us that at the next Senate session we will be discussing which Roman lands we next wish to free from occupation by those heathen Turks and Saracens, and the western barbarians.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

With all due respect, Strator ek Naksou, I believe you are ignoring the larger picture. The issue not the ease with which the province can be reconquered, but whether such a conquest is useful to the Basileus at this point in time. I do not doubt that the Order of St. John could capture Antioch if it were given the resources to do so, but such an act would actively injure the Empire. That city is very large and it has no great love of the Orthodox faith. Simply keeping it from rioting would require a very large garrison which will sap our treasury at a time when that coin could be better spent elsewhere. We must first obtain those settlements which will be easy to defend and provide immediate benefit to the Empire. Adana is at least a theoretically plausible consideration, since it, like Bari, would require only a small garrison to keep order. Antioch itself is an entirely unreasonable objective simply because it would drain more from the Empire than it would give back. We could conquer several provinces with the resources required just to keep order in Antioch.

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Vissarionas rises with a overly light-hearted look and uses a voice perhaps more suitable to haggling with a fish merchant than addressing the Senate, but he is clearly gaining confidence.

But my good man, this is absurd. You propose that the soldiers and ships already within striking distance of Antioch be paid to sail several years to another of your targets, targets which are poorer and also have no love of the Empire, because you think it will be cheaper than garrisoning a rich city?

Either you are a master fortune teller or you are simply making excuses for the impracticality of your proposal. As a man who has visited the region, take my word for it, even the rebels of Antioch do an astonishing quantity of trade and all that wealth is sitting there just a few miles off the current coast of the Empire. Implying that we will save money by sailing away from it to claim a few crude castles and villages is simply not an excuse I find credible.

As to defense, few cities in the world are as readily defended as Antioch. With an easily closed bridge to the north, a nearly impassable river to the east, and only a thin stretch of land to the south Antioch is more easily defended than any of the settlements you've listed.

Let's hear a different excuse, eh? Perhaps your proposal is a sentimental one rather than practical, which I can certainly respect, desiring to establish our old borders as a matter of formality before further expansion.

:egypt:

Pulling himself slowly off the wall by the doors the young Saracen looking Officer walks a little way into the centre circle.

In a slow, deliberate and accented voice he begins:

My Lords, I am obviously unfamiliar with this land and the politics that govern it, but I am familiar with both Turkish and Egyptian strategy.

I can confirm that the Egyptian Sultan and the Turks both eye Antioch with equal desire.

While I am not questioning the marshal abilities assembled in this room, taking that province and any that surround it will only bring this Empire closer to conflict with these two empires.

I believe that should be avoided for the moment due to the lack of military power I am hearing discussed here.

With that he steps back some distance to await any response.

With a look of total incredulity, Anastasios looks at the tanned man.

That is a ridiculous statement… Senator.

He pronounces the title reluctantly.

The Empire should not shirk from any confrontation with heathens. The just seek not to appease the corupt and the righteous seek not peace with the wicked. Did not God command his faithful through the words of the prophet Samuel to go and completely destroy the wicked people, to make war on them until we have wiped them out? Lack of military power is not in question here.

I regret my earlier statement. It was ill-worded. I ment it not to be exclusive, but rather to not limit our scope of action too much. Though I agree we should not seek conflict with our powerful neighbors, should they bring it to us, we will show them what sons of Greeks and Romans are capable of!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1 Samuel 15:18

Be that as it may, it will take the Turks some time before they can even hope of assualting Antioch as they must first seize either Adana or Edessa. The only immediate threat would be the Templar Knights to the south, but with only a wooden castle to their it will be some time before they can afford a large enough army to even think of attacking us.

The fact of the matter is that Antioch would be of great help in funding our efforts to reclaim the surrounding territories. Senator Markianos's assessement is quite sound, but it requires money. Seizing Antioch is an investment that will pay for itself, and it will not bring the Empire closer to war than the seizure of any other province would.

Savvas stands up from his seat and looks at Vissarionas.

We have to take into account our standing among other nations. We are obliged to our honor to reconquer what was once ours.

What are we? Merchants counting every coin in our treasure twice or noblemen, ready to retake what belongs to us?

After the Byzantine Empire has regained its' old strength and glory, we can think about conquering the Holy Land.

Our Saracen friend raises an interesting point. Let the Egyptian and the Turkish dogs weaken each other while they are struggling for Antioch and the other cities of the Holy Land.

After we regained what is rightfully ours, we can weep out whatever there is left from the Turks and Egyptians and claim the Holy Land for ourselves.

Makedonios had sat back and listened to the debate. It was clear that he had wanted to wait for the Emperor to come and give his opinion on the matter first. But now that the mission to Antioch was being mis-characterized, and his sergeants were valiantly attempting to defend the mission, the Grandmaster knew he had to speak up.

Gentlemen, there is a saying among military historians. "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics."

Let us look at the logistics of the situation.

Edict 1.2 will force the Order to either a.) be inactive all term, or b.) move totally in an opposite direction and be unprepared for next term.

There are no settlements on the Edict's list that we can reach quickly. Look at the maps. There are two ships off of Cyprus. And each ship can take only 2 regiments. The closest settlements on that list are Rhodes and Smyrna. And it would take years to sail 4 regiments/generals over to Rhodes. Then the ships would have to sail back, then sail more years to transport the other 4 regiments/generals. By the end of the term, we "might" have Rhodes. And by the beginning of the next term, all of our forces will be sitting far out in the middle of the Mediterranean. To me, that is unacceptable.

What we propose is simple. We ask that the Emperor be given the flexibility to sail the Order to Antioch or Adana. It will require no additional expenditure. All it would require is that those settlements be added to the list in Edict 1.2. Rhodes and Smyrna should be taken by those closer to those lands, such as our fellow nobles in House Asteri. Since the Order has no close targets in Edict 1.2, and what we ask will cost no extra money, I do not think is it unreasonable to ask that the Emperor be allowed to send us to the Holy Land if he wishes. To do otherwise would bind his hands.

The list in Edict 1.2 seems arbitrary anyways. Many settlements used to be under Justinian's Empire. Yet many are missing from the list. All we ask is that we be allowed to do our part.

Comes Ksanthopoulos, I think I must be slightly drunk, for I fear that I have just heard you say that the reason the Empire should move on Antioch is because doing otherwise would be 'unfair' to the Order. This must be wrong, for I know that a chivalrous Order such as yours would never place personal glory over the needs of the Empire. I hope I have misheard or misunderstood your statements.

Looking at Savvas and then letting his gaze rest on many other senators:

I find your lack of faith disturbing, Senator. Letting heathens rampage the Holy Lands which were once part of the Empire as a military tactic is more the talk of a heretic then that of a true servant of Rome. I believe edict 1.2 should simply state: any land which does not belong to a foreign power.

Makedonios just stares at Strator Khristophoros Diogenis

This isn't about what is fair. This is about using the tools you have. We are very close to some rebel provinces. But those provinces are not on a certain list. So you have actually asked me in a personal letter to sail very far away and take other rebel provinces.

All I have asked is that the Emperor be given the option to let the Order go to the Holy Land this term. But you have seen fit to tell the Emperor by an edict what he can and can't do.

If your done with your pointless attempts to pull me into a verbal sparring match, perhaps we can discuss real business.

I say let the Emperor decide what will be taken. But if you insist on binding his hands with edicts, then at least make sure there are options for everyone.

I will make this very clear. The Order will not sail to Rhodes. It is too far to get a real force there within a term. Others are closer, so they can take it. Now I ask again that you either;

a.) withdrawl your edict and let the Emperor choose what to take or

b.) add Antioch and/or Adana to the edict so we can sail there within 1 year.

If you don't, I will propose an edict to add Antioch to Edict 1.2 if it passes.

But the Order will not spend more than a decade taking an island in the middle of the Mediterranean that other Houses are closer to all because a certain Strator wishes it so.

And no attempt to insult the integrity of the Order by that Strator will convince me otherwise.

Frankly it astonishes me to hear a noble senator of this body propose that we should avoid Antioch because the Turks are interested in it. The Turks are also interested in Constantinople, should we abandon it to them in terror? Indeed, I would venture to say the Turks are interested in almost all of the territories on that list. To be quite honest I doubt that we could take Trebizond before they do even in theory, is Trebizond thus to be striken from the list?

No, it is madness to shrink from butchering rebels that trouble our borders and claim trade that should be ours just because that's what the Turks might want.

Rhodes is obviously an important province, but it is also a sink for money with no extant infrastructure and minimal prospects for producing income. If our goal is, as the author of the Edict suggests, to save money then Rhodes is the last place we must capture.

:egypt:

Makedonios Ksanthopoulos,

If you say you will not come west, and further claim that it will require no Imperial expenditure for you to go about your mission, then I suggest you propose a compromise of the following form:

*This is not an Edict*: The Order of St. John is allowed to attack any rebel target even if not listed in Edict 1.2, but no imperial money may be used to support this effort until Edict 1.2 is otherwise fulfilled.

I believe this would be an acceptable compromise as you will not help fulfill Edict 1.2 anyway, and you will get your targets authorized, but we will be sure that this effort will not detract from our efforts to secure the heartland of the Empire.

Makedonios turns to Vissarionas,

It's even worse than that. Strator Khristophoros is acting as if he is the Emperor himself. Giving out territories and deciding which ones people can and can not take. He has "graciously" promised me Rhodes and Smyrna even though those provinces are years away. Somehow I doubt he consulted the head of the House that is actually next door to Rhodes and Smyrna.

Then he arbitrarily decides that some provinces should not be taken this term. Worse than that, Edict 1.2 actually means the the Emperor himself can not decide what provinces to take unless they are on Strator Khristophoros's list. I would find the gall of the man amusing if it wasn't such a serious subject we were discussing.

I'm amazed that some of the very men who were so quick to swear allegiance to the Emperor's empty chair are now saying the Emperor can't be trusted to pick what province to attack first.

Strator Ksanthopoulos, please do not spread falsehoods in the Senate. I no more "promised" you Rhodes and Smyrna than I granted myself Rome. I was simply suggesting to you a manner in which the Order could be militarily active. My precise words were as follows:

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There is no shortage of work that the Order can do at the present time. You hold the only center of professional military recruitment in the East and a fleet stands nearby to transport some of your men. The Order is superbly placed to lead the reconquest of Rhodes and Smyrna, so there is no need for you men to be overlooked or inactive.

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Followed shortly afterwards by...

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I do wish to point out that my Edict most certainly does not freeze your men on Cyprus. There is no difference whatsoever in taking ship west to Rhodes and Smyrna rather than east to Adana and Antioch.

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I do not know how you think either of those statements can promise you anything at all. Furthermore, I am very confused by your statements about the Basileus. You seem to think that the mere act of proposing legislation is an affront to the Basileus himself. If that is true, why does the Senate even exist?

Because your offer is absurd my good sir. You've pulled a few province names off of a map and decided that those are the ones the Emperor can take. And the others he can't until your list is satisfied.

No falsehood has been spread. I suggest you follow your own advice. Your use of "red herrings" and "weasel words" is unbecoming a Senator.

But you keep avoiding my larger point. And that is that the Emperor should be allowed to decide if the Order can or can not take Antioch this term. For some reason, you've decided that the Emperor can not decide that unless he meets your Edict's list of "demands" first.

Anastasios sulks in his chair, muttering to himself. He seems to regret having even set foot in the Senate.

Why are we sitting here prattling about politics and influence rather then putting our enemies to the sword… Worthless paper-pushers, all of them.

Comes Ksanthopoulos, I believe it is you who puts the interests of his Order above the interests of the Empire.

It is clear that first, we need to get back what is ours, then we can start other conquests. Your personal ambitions are of lesser importance.

And Vissarionas ek Lesvou, nobody here said that we should leave the Holy Lands to the Turks. It was only suggested to let the heathen dogs slaughter each other while we are reconquering our Empire and gaining strength to take over the Holy Land and its' surroundings. Surely, you don't have a problem with heathens killing each other, do you?

Antioch was Byzantine property for years.

This has nothing to do with ambition. It has to do with one man thinking he can tell the Emperor what he can and can not take. Who is the ambitious one eh?

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Antioch was Byzantine property for years.

This has nothing to do with ambition. It has to do with one man thinking he can tell the Emperor what he can and can not take. Who is the ambitious one eh?

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How does merely proposing an Edict equals ordering the Basileus what he has to do?

Your accusation is absurd.

Because if the Edict passes, then the Emperor has to follow it or risk impeachment. Read the rules of the Senate before you accuse me of being absurd.

I think Anastasios has a point about replacing the list in Edict 1.2 with "any land which does not belong to a foreign power."

This would solve at least some of the concerns Strator Khristophoros has. It would prevent war from being declared upon a foreign power this term. Which is a much more reasonable request than making up an arbitrary list which coincidently has most of the provinces next to his own House.

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Because if the Edict passes, then the Emperor has to follow it or risk impeachment. Read the rules of the Senate before you accuse me of being absurd.

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The Edict will only pass if enough support has been gained.

It's how these sessions work.

After refusing to swear allegiance to our Basileus, you now question the workings and the purpose of the Senate?

I don't want to use the word "traitor" in this sacred place, but...

Savvas stares at Makedonios in disbelief.

You go too far, Comes Ksanthopoulos. Most of the provinces next to my own House? The only provinces which are closer to Corinth than any other House are Arta and Bari, and it took a member of another House to convince me to include Bari on that list! Every other province is closer to another House, including your own!

The list has most of the provinces next to Constantinople. Capturing Antioch will do nothing to secure the Empire, and will only detract from it if resource have to be expended to defend it. It is even more remote and isolated than the other cities, and you propose to stretch us even more thinly than we already are.

I must say, I wonder if you, good Comes Ksanthopoulos, are merely an incompetent strategician, motivated by potential for personal gain, or blinded by faith (in some odd way where you put Antioch in front of Constantinople, which is the seat of the Patriarch of Constantinople, who is the primary one of them all, and more important than he who now sits in Antioch). I am very curious which of these it is, and why you have found my attempt at a compromise so unaccepable as to completely ignore it.

Strator Savvas,

But if it passes, then the Emperor's hands are tied.

As for the word "traitor", you bandy it about so freely it loses all meaning.

By the way, speaking of reading Senate rules, you should probably do so before you propose edicts that should be Charter Amendments.

Strator Khristophoros,

Closer to Cyprus? Did you even look at a map before creating your list?

I can't wait until the Emperor appears and restores some order and sanity to this place.

And you are still avoiding the issue. What do you think about Strator Anastasios's idea on replacing the list with "any land which does not belong to a foreign power." Or has this gotten too personal for you to remain objective in carrying out your duties?

Comes Markianos Ampelas,

Antioch is a vital strategic front for the Empire. And we need to get there before other nations do. As for your compromise, I rather we add in Strator Anastasios's wording or scrap the Edict altogether.

I'm waiting to see if Strator Khristophoros will stop ignoring Anastasios's suggestion and actually debate it or if he will continue with the ad hominum attacks.

Koulianos Vorzous steps into the crowded area
'I apologize for my lateness, roads aren't what they used to be."
[I]Quickly he looks for the Order and finding it, goes and sits with them./I]

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Strator Savvas,

But if it passes, then the Emperor's hands are tied.

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If it passes, then that is the will of the Senate and by consequence in the interest of the Empire. It is not up to any of us, Senators, to question the Senate itself, which is what you were implying, my dear Comes.