Some great things China has done to Tibet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Adrian: What is so great about Tibet, that you feel the need to stick up for them?

---

I remember throwing some acid on a thread about Tibet three years ago because the OP seemed to admire the Dalai Lama and all he stood for. I explained that the Lama regime was backward and violent and had practically no political or cultural advantage over the Chinese occupation. Some were very disappointed in me and asked why I felt the need to clobber those poor Tibetans. Now you are asking me why I think they are so great.

If we can exchange views instead of prejudices, and listen to each other instead of assuming all sorts of stuff, I am your man. Everything I wrote in this thread is in plain English. There is not a word of admiration for Tibetan culture in it.

I don't pretend to love or admire Tibet, there is not enough room in my heart, so sorry. But I detest cruelty, stupidity and deceit, particularly the combination of all three, and this combination has characterized Chinese policies toward Tibet. Besides, to me the Tibet issue is part of the wider issue of the Chinese regime's failures, and more or less the symbol of it.

And in case you didn't notice, in the thread about Georgia I have consistently castigated Mr Saakashvili for behaving in a similar manner toward Ossetia, or for trying to, because his attempt was thwarted by the Russians. Love for the Ossetians plays no role in this whatsoever. Nor does love for the Russians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adrian II

*Snip*
I don't pretend to love or admire Tibet, there is not enough room in my heart, so sorry. But I detest cruelty, stupidity and deceit, particularly the combination of all three, and this combination has characterized Chinese policies toward Tibet. Besides, to me the Tibet issue is part of the wider issue of the Chinese regime's failures, and more or less the symbol of it.

*snip*

---

Cruelty: So? The Tibetans should stop whining. They've received enough benefits from the Chinese. The Chinese treat Tibetans a whole lot better than they treat the Han Chinese.

Stupidity: I don't see anything stupid about the occupation of Tibet.

Deceit: I fully acknowledge everything China has done in Tibet. By that, I mean everything. The only divergence is that I think China is doing the right thing in Tibet, and you don't.

Failures of the Chinese Regime: The Chinese Regime has failed many, many, many, many, many, many times. Except it's also succeeded just as many times, if not more. The Chinese government is like any other normal government. It's burdened with running the affairs of 1/5th of the humanity, so they'll probably take some expedients, just so that everything that really needs to be done can be done. And given its sheer size and scope, everything the Chinese government does is magnified. As Sarmatian said, the Chinese government can't simply move overnight. Give it some time.

Hell, it took Taiwan until 1990 to stop being authoritarian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Cruelty: So?

---

I told you, I happen to loathe it.

Quote:

---

Stupidity: I don't see anything stupid about the occupation of Tibet.

---

Maybe you can answer your own question.

Let me remind you of post #17 where you said: 'Tibet has been...to put it politely, a :daisy: of unimaginable proportions.'

You seem to be veering from one proposition to the next, even if they are contradictory, as long as it allows you to defend the present regime. Why don't you admit to its gruesome aspects? Like you said, every civilization has its episodes of mass cruelty. Why deny them as such? I don't mind being reminded of the Holocaust, which is a black hole in European civlization. I don't identify with those who perpetrated it, or with those who deny it. Heck, even Marxism, the very ideology that helped wreak havoc in your country for decades, is of European origin. We 'invented' modern (i.e. ideologically or scientifically justified) mass murder. I'm not proud of those 'achievements', nor do I deny them. Why should you deny or defend the horrible episodes in recent Chinese history caused by one-party rule and insane economic policies?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TevashSzat

Again, I don't defend what Mao did to the educated, but I want people to understand some of its more positive effects. Just talking about the quite awful ones is like beating a dead horse, imo.

Well, what I don't think people in the west understand is that during the Cultural Revolution, hundreds of millions living in rural areas actually had a chance of doing something worthwhile in their lives. Now, all of them have no chance at all at moving up the social ladder. This disparity and lack of upward movement from the lower and middle classes is an incredible concern in China right now

---

So they were killed and robbed, instead of merely being killed. That's much better indeed! :help::wall:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adrian II

I told you, I happen to loathe it.Maybe you can answer your own question.

Let me remind you of post #17 where you said: 'Tibet has been...to put it politely, a :daisy: of unimaginable proportions.'

(blah blah blah)

---

Tibet has been a :daisy: of unimaginable proportions. To leave now would be a bad idea though. It would show the world that China is weak and is willing to bend over and get :daisy:ed by the West. China won't leave Tibet, even if it stupid, for the simple reason that the West disapproves of the occupation of Tibet (but can't really do anything about it).

I admit to every gruesome aspect, as previously stated. I don't care if you think they're wrong, because for the most part, the gruesome parts are necessary, whether for profit, order or just keeping the unwashed masses in their place. Cruelty is necessary expedient. Otherwise, China instantly dissolves into a state that looks like India.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Otherwise, China instantly dissolves into a state that looks like India.

---

India is doing rather well so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Cruelty: So? The Tibetans should stop whining. They've received enough benefits from the Chinese.

---

Sounds like a wife beaters excuse.

http://www.dbresearch.de/PROD/DBR_IN...0000192108.pdf

Compare.

Dave: May be. But I would never beat a woman. :wink: That would be just unseemly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

http://www.dbresearch.de/PROD/DBR_IN...0000192108.pdf

Compare.

Dave: May be. But I would never beat a woman. :wink: That would be just unseemly.

---

What if she was Tibetan? Sure thing that would make it OK. :idea:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viking

What if she was Tibetan? Sure thing that would make it OK. :idea:

---

Damn you and your quandaries! :tongue2:

By the way, it's not ok to randomly beat Tibetans. The arm holding your nightstick will eventually tire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

By the way, it's not ok to randomly beat Tibetans.

---

That's one thing settled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Tibet has been a :daisy: of unimaginable proportions. To leave now would be a bad idea though. It would show the world that China is weak and is willing to bend over and get :daisy:ed by the West. China won't leave Tibet, even if it stupid, for the simple reason that the West disapproves of the occupation of Tibet (but can't really do anything about it).

I admit to every gruesome aspect, as previously stated. I don't care if you think they're wrong, because for the most part, the gruesome parts are necessary, whether for profit, order or just keeping the unwashed masses in their place. Cruelty is necessary expedient. Otherwise, China instantly dissolves into a state that looks like India.

---

So it is always better to show your strenght instead of doing the right thing? Do (or will) you tell you son that if someone steals his cookie, he just needs to beat the kid up instead of telling the teacher? You don't want your son to look weak right? Also I don't think anyone is going to think that China's weak. I mean if even G. W. Bush figured that out... Lets be hounoust if it would let Tibet go it would be viewed as a strong country, but with respect. That is moving forward not only econmically but also humanly. Cause it's not a country's strenght that makes someone respect or like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

By the way, it's not ok to randomly beat Tibetans

---

How about if you beat them up starting with the smallest working your way up to the tallest? Or perhaps in a alphabetical order (name)? ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

I don't care if you think they're wrong, because for the most part, the gruesome parts are necessary, whether for profit, order or just keeping the unwashed masses in their place. Cruelty is necessary expedient.

---

You sound like the arrogant, racist European elite of the old days speaking about their colonial subjects. There is nothing Communist or even civilized about such views, and in combination with your adoration of violence they are plain Fascist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adrian II

You sound like the arrogant, racist European elite of the old days speaking about their colonial subjects. There is nothing Communist or even civilized about such views, and in combination with your adoration of violence they are plain Fascist.

---

I never said I was a Communist, and I refuse to apologize for my cruel and fascist views. What China is doing in Tibet is colonialism, plain and simple, but I won't apologize for it.

Moros: Better to be feared than loved. Also, it's best simply to beat the Tibetans that complain loudly. Smallest to Tallest works too I guess.:clown: :wink:

clown smilie added to reinforce poster's assumed ironic intent. ~Kukri

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Moros: Better to be feared than loved. .

---

You really think so?

Quote:

---

Also, it's best simply to beat the Tibetans that complain loudly. Smallest to Tallest works too I guess

---

Smallest to Tallest works? Great, I never could stand tibettan dwarves. How do I hate them tibettan dwarves. :laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Communism is a plague wherever it manifests. I'm proud my grandfather and other family members were involved in trying to destroy it for good. Its only too bad that they failed...

---

It'd be easy for me to find numerous sources that show the deaths, inderect and direct, that radical right wing, right wing, and capitalist governments have killed.

I'm glad my grandfathers helped fight the Communist Soviet Union and Fascist Nazi Germany.

Quote:

---

and I refuse to apologize for my cruel and fascist views

---

I think we can end the thread here, guys. :dizzy2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwedishFish

I think we can end the thread here, guys. :dizzy2:

---

Well yeah. QED, so to speak.

But the fact that China is evolving into a Fascist state merits some more debate. See you guys in another thread. :wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwedishFish

It'd be easy for me to find numerous sources that show the deaths, inderect and direct, that radical right wing, right wing, and capitalist governments have killed.

I'm glad my grandfathers helped fight the Communist Soviet Union and Fascist Nazi Germany.

---

Hey, I didn't know you had non-Swedish ancestors too...:tomato:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon

and I refuse to apologize for my cruel and fascist views

---

I think that maybe you are so determined to save face and 'defend' your country and family's honour that you allowed yourself to be driven into a corner, from which then your only way out was to lash out with wild counter-accusations and fascist tough talk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I think that maybe you are so determined to save face and 'defend' your country and family's honour that you allowed yourself to be driven into a corner, from which then your only way out was to lash out with wild counter-accusations and fascist tough talk.

---

I still refuse to apologize for anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adrian II

But the fact that China is evolving into a Fascist state merits some more debate. See you guys in another thread. :wave:

---

that would be an interesting thread, with all kinds of lurid comparisons to other empires and their versions of colonialism. someone should start it now................. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Hey, I didn't know you had non-Swedish ancestors too...

---

Haha. Actually, my recently passed grandfather fought in the Volunteer Brigade during the Winter War. Mannerheim Line, 1939-40. Wounded. Healed then fought in Norway, went into Sweden following the capitulation, sailed in merchant ships.

My other grandfather also fought in Norway (Neither saw each other :laugh4:) and evacuated with the other Allies to Britain where he was a gunnery officer in the North Sea. Died before I met him.


Funny, isn't it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Fascist Nazi Germany.

---

I have to argue with the terms you're using. While I'm not a fascist, Nazism differs radically from the fascism in common practice at the time. The concept of fascism exists in Nazism, but the core of Nazism is different from the core of fascism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I have to argue with the terms you're using. While I'm not a fascist, Nazism differs radically from the fascism in common practice at the time. The concept of fascism exists in Nazism, but the core of Nazism is different from the core of fascism.

---

So I'm comparing bannanas to green bannanas :laugh4:?:2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwedishFish

So I'm comparing bannanas to green bannanas :laugh4:?:2thumbsup:

---

No, more like strawberry chocolate-covered ice cream to vanilla chocolate-covered frozen yogurt. They look similar, but take one bite...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

No, more like strawberry chocolate-covered ice cream to vanilla chocolate-covered frozen yogurt. They look similar, but take one bite...

---

I look at it like this:

You have two bowls of vanilla ice cream, one has nothing on it, the other has sprinkles. The sprinkles being Nazism. You essentially have the same thing, one has more flavor to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I have to argue with the terms you're using. While I'm not a fascist, Nazism differs radically from the fascism in common practice at the time. The concept of fascism exists in Nazism, but the core of Nazism is different from the core of fascism.

---

End results weren't much different. I think the difference is closer to chocolate vs fudge then chocolate vs carob.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwedishFish

I look at it like this:

You have two bowls of vanilla ice cream, one has nothing on it, the other has sprinkles. The sprinkles being Nazism. You essentially have the same thing, one has more flavor to it.

---

The problem with that analogy is that neither of them taste good...

I did laugh when I read it though, well done sir :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Cruelty: So? The Tibetans should stop whining. They've received enough benefits from the Chinese. The Chinese treat Tibetans a whole lot better than they treat the Han Chinese.

Stupidity: I don't see anything stupid about the occupation of Tibet.

Deceit: I fully acknowledge everything China has done in Tibet. By that, I mean everything. The only divergence is that I think China is doing the right thing in Tibet, and you don't.

---

Somehow, I think if a foreign country invaded your country without any pretext (Other than "[Insert Authoritarian Power-Hungry Dictator here] wants to.") And half of your familly was killed in the invasion. And the other half of your familly would die in consequence of persecutions (Cultural, religious, political, etc.), you wouldn't be endorsing what China did.

Quote:

---

Nazism is to fascism what Stalinism is to communism. A radical extreme.

---

Yet they both have a core politicial philosophy. That only proves my point. Communism is a radical liberal ideology, yet still a liberal ideology.