Franco: The dictator's legacy to modern Spain

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

Uhm, since when was fascism the ideology that the UK was not opposed to? I seem to recall us fighting a World War against it in fact.

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I think the UK was also very much opposed to communism for a long time before and after the war. ~;)

Yes. But it is simply not true to say that "the ideology we opposed did not come to power".

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Originally Posted by Jolt

What the... Do you know that the Comunists had in fact so much power prior to the Civil War (As they were themselves in the 1936 Government) that there was great fear arising from the Conservatives that there would be a Communist revolution? Prior to the Civil War, the Left was basically the only political force in politics of Spain, with the moderate Socialists refusing to take part in the Government, made the Republican Government Communist. Then the leader of the Communist Party of Spain began being hailed by the major Soviet newspaper as "The Lenin of Spain", basically already anticipating what was going to happen. It was very clear what was going to happen.

With a minority of moderates in the Government, the Communists would use their democratic tools to outlaw right-wing parties, and soon after moderate left-wing parties. With that, done, they could proceed to changing the constitution and creating a communist state. No need for "Civil War" to give the communists more power.

Stalin knew very well that if the Republicans won the Civil War, then there was a major possibility of the instalation of the Communists in power. And ally across Europe. Therefore it makes a lot of sense for him to help a communist government under the guise of republicanism to win.

From the opposite camp, who did have grave fears for a Communist Coup in Spain was Portugal, who could very well be overthrown themselves by a Communist coup, following up the Spanish one. That explains why Portugal allowed Spanish divisions to retreat to Portugal incase of defeat. (This gave the Nationalists a gigantic strategic advantage over the Republicans.)

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The politics of the time before the civil war are indeed rather murky. For example if I recall Largo Caballero was the leader of the PSOE not the PCE. Further Caballero's speeches were worrying both his republican allies and his communist allies while Soviet support of the Republic wasn't given the nod by Stalin until September 1936.

You are correct, however in saying that the communists (that is the parties that were increasingly in thrall to the communists) were a force in the 1936 elections. The Comintern had been busy for years and troubled times breed radicalism. Complete unity between the other left-wing factions would have been necessary to contol them, an unlikely possibility. However prior to 1936, in the early days of the Republic when the seeds of civil war were sown, the communists were far less of an influence.

With the rise of the radicals at both ends of the political spectrums came the rise of the paramilitaries, on the one hand the Falangist and other right wing groups and then on the other, with the forces of government seeming increasingly impotent, those of the left, such as the communist MAOC. Already both sides were busy buying weapons.

The readiness and relative discipline of the communist militias made them a natural cadre for the Republic during the civil war especially since the better equipped and more eperienced elements of the pre-war army the tended to side with the facists. Hence as the war lengthened the armed forces of the Republic became increasingly communist controlled. By the end they were in a large part independent of the government and much more powerful.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

Uhm, since when was fascism the ideology that the UK was not opposed to? I seem to recall us fighting a World War against it in fact.

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One of the reasons that the Republic had to beholden itself to the USSR is that no one else would help. The fact is that the UK was more worried by a democratic but left-wing government than a facist coup resulting in a dictatorship. The Royal Navy even blockaded Republican ports while letting the Nationalist move at will. Concrete evidence of German and Italian involvment on the facist side was ignored despite the Non-Intervention Pact. Pah, we did much the same in 1939. Impotence in the face of militant facism coupled with a deep fear of communism. The UK wasn't the only one: IIRC the US refused to sell oil to the Republic.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

Uhm, since when was fascism the ideology that the UK was not opposed to? I seem to recall us fighting a World War against it in fact.

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You were clearly fighting the Communo-Fascists. Completely different thing. Get the story straight :rolleyes:

Um, ok so we can all agree that neither of the two sides were any good for Spain?
Or are some people actually in support of commies? If that is the case you are just as strange as those who support fascists...

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Perhaps, but being realistic, that was the better of the two or three options Spain was given.

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How can you ignore free will so completely? Instead of becoming what he became, Franco could've used his drive and ambition to becoming a champion for a fair and democratic country! But, since he was a complete :daisy:, he did not and instead he devoted his time to being a petty murderer instead of a great leader.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I recognize that this was a flaw in the Falagalist government.

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You "recognize it as a flaw"...?

Pray tell, what can a government do that is worse than killing off their own population...?

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Or are some people actually in support of commies? If that is the case you are just as strange as those who support fascists...

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I can't speak for anyone but myself, of course, but I'm solely in support of the democratic powers. You know, the ones who aren't murderers.

HoreTore, what democratic powers?

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

HoreTore, what democratic powers?

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The few who existed, the ones who would be inclined to support such a movement, and what Franco could've chosen to do instead of installing a brutal kill-machine.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The few who existed, the ones who would be inclined to support such a movement, and what Franco could've chosen to do instead of installing a brutal kill-machine.

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Who?

The Republic was controlled by a bunch of commie nutters who were just asking for a fight with some fascist nutters.

Franco was not a nice man, he was rather horrible, but he was not the only one who didn't give a fig for democracy, such as the commies.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

The Republic was controlled by a bunch of commie nutters who were just asking for a fight with some fascist nutters.

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How do you know the Commies were spoiling for a fight? They were not in control of the majority of the government on their own, and I doubt the Anarchists would have supported state-sponsored killings.

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Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry

Uhm, since when was fascism the ideology that the UK was not opposed to? I seem to recall us fighting a World War against it in fact.

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read and learn:

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Originally Posted by Me

i agree that either would be a terrible result for spain, but......

they were at least not using the enemies (post WW2) ideology, which meant that NATO did not have a fifth column in its rear post 1945.

so yes, in the absence of any certainty of a democratic spain post civil-war then i am content with franco.

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spains ideology in isolation matters not one jot (when we consider only the extremes), what matters is spains ideology when we face the potential of nuclear holocaust due the cold war going 'bad' from an opposing ideology.

do i think the West's life would have been easier/better with a commie fifth-column in NATO's rear? no.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Franco was not a nice man, he was rather horrible, but he was not the only one who didn't give a fig for democracy, such as the commies.

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No, and as such I don't support either of them. I refuse to choose one evil over another.