Things you learned from playing vanilla RTW

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Is this normal for European countries? Kids in Russia seemed much smarter. Europe is better than US in geography, but then any country is. What about history though? How much better are Europeans in history? I have traveled to almost very European country, but it is very difficult to tell how smart the people are in a certain country just after spending week in there. BTW, according to the stuff I read in the Economist as well as Time magazines, British students were just as bad as the American ones. Continental Europe was much better and Asian countries such as China, Japan and South Korea were the best, of course.

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It is normal that people in US don't know geography. Even some newspapers or televisions haven't realised thet Czechoslovakia splited 15 years ago or that Slovakia and Slovenia are two different states. But if you ask somebody in Europe about some US states, perhaps except for California, Florida, Alaska, Texas or Hawai, he will have no idea where the others are. The same goes for US history.
Especially in post-socialistic countries schools demand encyclopedic knowledge and so people know a lot of facts. If you search results for example from some international scielnce olympiads, you will discover that most successful are countries from eastern Asia and eastern Europe. Secondary schools are on higher level here, but it's much worse with universities.

And I learned a lot from playing RTW because thnks to it I disovered EB which taught me a lot.

I have an idea: let's prepare some questions from history (like who was Pyrrhus, what do you know about Seleucid empire, how do you imagine barbarian cultures...) and make a survey among people from our countries. Every forum member who will do this will post his results and we will have some kind of global ancient history knowledge study.

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Originally Posted by Andronikos

I have an idea: let's prepare some questions from history (like who was Pyrrhus, what do you know about Seleucid empire, how do you imagine barbarian cultures...) and make a survey among people from our countries. Every forum member who will do this will post his results and we will have some kind of global ancient history knowledge study.

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OK, first question: Who is Hannibal Barca?
What is Carthage?

and on topic, I lerned that Epirus wasn't in existance, and neither was Phyrrus

I just remembered something quite amusing that took place during our history lesson. Some of my classmates had done a presentation about Indian history from about 300 BC to 200 AD. When I asked them about the Indo-Greek kingdoms they just stared at me with a mixture of total disbelief and amazement and asked me if I just made up the question.

Second question: What do you think happened to Alexander the Great's empire after he died?

And on topic:

I learned that the Scythians were the major power in the Russian steppe around 280 BC and that the Goths looked like the Huns.

Maybe out of line regarding the intended direction of this thread, but this is how it is -
I learned to use the Total War Engine from playing RTW. The vanilla version. And it was good.

Okay, so far we´ve got:

1. Who was Hannibal Barca?
2. What is Carthage?
3. What do you think happened to Alexander the Great's empire after he died?

Now lets see if I can come up with some:

4. Who was Pyrrhus of Epirus?
5. Name one general of Alexander the Great.
6. Before the Emperors, what was the highest political position in Rome?
7. What was Baktria?
8. What is Scipio Africanus famous for? ("taking africa?" isn´t enough)
9. In what century was Rome founded?
10: In what year was Ceasar murdered?
11: What was Augustus real name? (provided they know who Augustus was)

I know that´s a lot of Roman questions, but tbh, if I were to ask my classmates who was the second king of the Seleukid empire they´d ask me what the **** the Seleukid empire is, so I pretty much have to keep the questions Roman-related to make sure there is even the slightest chance they know the answer.

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Originally Posted by Andronikos

It is normal that people in US don't know geography. Even some newspapers or televisions haven't realised that Czechoslovakia split 15 years ago or that Slovakia and Slovenia are two different states. But if you ask somebody in Europe about some US states, perhaps except for California, Florida, Alaska, Texas or Hawaii, he will have no idea where the others are. The same goes for US history.
Especially in post-socialistic countries schools demand encyclopaedic knowledge and so people know a lot of facts. If you search results for example from some international science Olympiads, you will discover that most successful are countries from eastern Asia and eastern Europe. Secondary schools are on higher level here, but it's much worse with universities.

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In the name of every Slovenian out there, I thank you. Finally, someone who knows. Since you know Czechoslovakia split, I guess you can also point on the map, where both Slovenia and Slovakia is.

It is true, that we must learn of lot of facts. Yet professors try to make classes interesting. The problem is, that our youth doesn't really care for history. Combine that with the lack of discipline (failure of both the entire social system and maybe some professors, but not all of them) and my zealousness when it comes to work and especially history, it doesn't shock when I hear stupid things coming from certain people. As someone put it, "We must learn from history, never to repeat its mistakes", yet unfortunately during the same breath I must add what a different person said, "What history has though us is that we don't learn from history".

It's quite sad.

As for universities are concerned, come back in 6 months. I start first year in a couple of days, yet it's true, that we don't hear a lot of encouraging stuff from students. Maybe it's because they believe life is all fun and no work, yet that might just be me speaking again.

another question: who invented the principe of the legionaire and what were the three major infantrie classes of the romans before legionaries were used
it is sadly true that schools don't pay much atention to the history between alexander and the roman empire
the only thing i learned was that alexanders empire was split in diferent parts wich were only in decline and that only the ptolemoi could get a litle hold on there teritory (propably because they were the last of the succesor states to fall)
i did learn about hastati principes triari and equites though
and of course a litle bit about cesars conquest of the belgians and their ressistance(ambiorix)

RTW did a few good things for me:

1. I didn't know about the Seleucid empire.
2. I didn't know about Parthia.

....that gives you an idea about my lack of knowledge of ancient history outside of Rome and Greece up to Alexander.

Once I came across EB.... well that was a college class right there fellas :book:

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Originally Posted by Narhon

Lorica segmentata
http://www.imperivm.org/img/articulo...entata_001.jpg

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Auugghhhgh its too much! Put it away! Put it away!

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Originally Posted by Eudoris

If it would be for some documentaries, I would believe that Hannibal fought Lorica Segmentata legionaries.

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Amen to that.

The fact is that vainilla RTW, aside from all it`s misconception, delivered much bigger quantities of accurate info than any documentary from The History Channel available. (Bloddy cheek from self-styling with such a name. That channel depicted a series of battles using RTW engine, showing it as the paramount of historical accuracy.)

Off course that when you compare vainilla RTW with EB or with other historical mods, you get the feeling that the former disfigured history with a malevolent purpose in mind. But you have to remember that to a largely uncultured public, showing historical Gasaetae or an accurate Republican Roman Army in the vainlilla release would have been shocking or boring, respectively.

If CA would thought that by selling history books they would have made more money, they wouldn`t have released RTW.

Cheers.

PS: If you had truly wanted to learn hardcore history, you wouldn`t have invested 30 dollars in RTW and you would instead have used that money to buy a Goldsworthy book, or would have buyed a hardcover edition of Cesar`s comentario de bello gallico.

i got both >_> and still have enuf to spare for spore...

Upperclass twit.

Frivolous loon.

Dumbass.

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Originally Posted by General Appo

Dumbass.

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:now, now, no need to insult the fellow...:clown:

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Originally Posted by satalexton

i got both >_> and still have enuf to spare for spore...

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What the heck does this mean anyway? Don't quite see what upsets people so much. I am not very good at understanding humor either, so please excuse me if i missed out something seemingly very obvious.

Well, satalexton seems to be saying that he spent his money on a copy of RTW, and a copy of Goldsworthy (which book btw?) and a copy of Gallic War and still spent money on the game Spore, which came out earlier this month.

Everyone else seems to be irritated by his wealth. Or him buying Spore.

Like satalexton, I have bought all of the above (in Goldsworthy's case, it was The Complete Roman Army). Probably like satalexton, I didn't buy them all at once. Very possibly like satalexton, I bought Goldworthy, and Civil War because of EB (I've bought a great many books because of EB- my classical library blooms). I'm not rich, but I can save up.

As for Spore. It's quite fun.

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Originally Posted by Maeran

As for Spore. It's quite fun.

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Isn't it awesome? I built a race of dragon people. It and Oblivion are the only games I consider anywhere near EB.

:focus:
While vanilla may have included several silly fantasy units, it is way ahead of most games. While it could have been so much more historically accurate, that's not really what the game was about.

I learnt that the Senate Army remained the same( Princepes, Hastati), even after the Marian Reforms.

I'm sorry, but all those questions that you guys came up with I don't think ten percent of the population anywhere in the world be able to answer those.

I think more basic questions like these would be more along the lines of answerable queries.

"What is your name?"
"How old are you?"
"Do you like ice cream?"


I kid. But I'm serious, some questions are extremely specific. The first two, about Hannibal and Carthage seem decent enough, but asking about Baktria and the development of Roman military tactics would be too much for people who don't even know where Iraq is.

I'm not even being a elitist snob.

Questions maybe like this could be acceptable:

Who were the Romans?
Who was murdered by his fellow senators, uttering the famous lines "Et tu, Brutus?"
Who were the Celts? Where did they live?
Who was Hannibal, and where did he come from?
Describe Pre-Dark Ages history of the British Isles.

I have to admit that I myeslf never heard too much about the Seleucid Empire before I bought Rome :embarassed:
And I also learned a lot from it - I hadn't known about the kind of warfare the romans had before the Marian Reforms.
I had never heard of a Ptolemaic Dynasty before (actually only the name Cleoptar seeemd fermiliar).
I had hardly heard of Phyruss before (I guess EB depicts him more accuratly but Rome also mentioned him)
I also got some insight on how ancient warfare worked - before that I couldn't even Imagine it - movies were to predetermined for me:laugh4:

It was the spark which started my interest for Ancient history - till then I was only interested about the history of the 20. century.

And a few more guestions to the people:

Who was Attila??
Name atleast two theories about his death...:juggle2: (I'm not really expectig an answer)
Who was the first Emperor of the Rome Empire?
Which Roman emperor ordered the consturction of the Wall (or boder defense) in Northern England?
(and a funny one:laugh4:: Was the Seldjuk Empire the direct heir to the Seleucid empire?:laugh4::laugh4:

I learned that pigs set on fire help fighting elephants! Invaluable knowledege, that is 4 sure!

I learnt that worshipping certain gods makes you a better fighter or improves how sharp your sword is.

There are some funny comments on this thread :laugh4:

However, I have to say, Ancient History (however important WE might think it to be) is a very intricate and specialist period that is not studied (in detail or often at all) by the vast majority of people, even those who have received an excellent education. Instead all our societies have people that study this branch of knowledge in order for it to be kept alive for the rest of us. It really is not a necessary for the average person to know what and where Bactria was for example.

I will propose some alternative questions for those above to see if really we as a forum really know so much about other periods of history as our own. Obviously looking at wiki/google etc is cheating.

1. Name three tribes/clans conquered by Shaka Zulu.
2. Where in the world are the earliest cave paintings found?
3. Who lived in Tikal and why provide one recognised theory as to why the city fell?

ANyway, Im sorry if Ive offended anyone, but really IMO its unreasonable to expect "normal" people to know a great deal about ancient history. In the same way many of us might struggle to explain even the most basic concepts of quantum physics.

Its far more important for people to understand the basics of where their own nation/civilization came from and where is stands in the world today. And Im not even going to get into the whole social history vs factual history debate.

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Originally Posted by Maeran

As for Spore. It's quite fun.

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Spore=SUCK i aint taking THAT kind of customer BS for a game that aint replayable. Sims was awesome, Spore sucked donkey bawlz.
As for what i learnd from RTW it learned pretty much the same as HunGeneral.

Honestly, RTW has taught me a lot, more than the history lessons in school. By playing the game I started to get interested in ancient history. I guess it's because of the huge difference of reading a text about the Battle of the Trebia and playing it yourself...

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Originally Posted by Cambyses

However, I have to say, Ancient History (however important WE might think it to be) is a very intricate and specialist period that is not studied (in detail or often at all) by the vast majority of people, even those who have received an excellent education. Instead all our societies have people that study this branch of knowledge in order for it to be kept alive for the rest of us. It really is not a necessary for the average person to know what and where Bactria was for example.

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I agree ont that. Most people who know alot about a certain area of knowledge mostly do because there personal interest not necesserealy the need to know or because they can use it in Real Life.:yes:

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Originally Posted by Cambyses

Its far more important for people to understand the basics of where their own nation/civilization came from and where is stands in the world today.

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Thats true. Most peoples should know where they come from.

Every Nation expects there citizens to have some basic knowledge about there past.(usually something others wouldn't care about)

Cambyses brought some quite good exampels:

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Originally Posted by Cambyses

1. Name three tribes/clans conquered by Shaka Zulu.
2. Where in the world are the earliest cave paintings found?
3. Who lived in Tikal and why provide one recognised theory as to why the city fell?

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(I really wonder if anyone knows the answers?)

I just remembered some myself:

1 Who did Saint Stephan (I.) "offer" his kingdom to after his son (and only heir) died in a hunting accident? - more a cultural than political effect.
2.Why do the Bells ring at noon? (If anyone can answer this please do:yes: - I'd really like to know if anyone here knows it:yes:)

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Originally Posted by HunGeneral

Name atleast two theories about his death::laugh4:

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He banged a Goth chick too vigorously and drowned in his own blood.

Do we even need a second theory?

I learned that Berserkers existed 1000 years before the Vikings.
I learned that lines of succession were always simple and uncontested.
I learned that revolting peasants fought with nothing but small knives.
I learned that it's possible to "train" peasants, and yet after enlisted in the army they are still referred to as "peasants."
I learned that peasants always fight in a perfect circle.
I learned that a single trireme can hold an army of 2000, including 20 elephants, 160 horses, and 3 catapults.

Time for some Barbarian Invasion guys.

I learnt that Berbers were already Muslims even though Mohhamad (Spell?) was born 300 years after the game actually starts.
I learnt that Western Roman Empire governers sucked up 50% of the cities income.
I learnt that The Eastern Roman Empire had better copies of Cataphracts than their neighbours.
I learnt that it took only 3-6 turns to convert a city.