Should Georgia Be Admitted to NATO?

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Originally Posted by cmacq

Please don't get me wrong, I understand America Imperialism very well, as well I know the fascist left and right in the US. However, in the end, after all the spin is said and done, and the BS washed away, it all comes down to whom one wants to overcome the other, and how we all keep from getting crushed in the process.

One should always get something out of picking sides.


CmacQ

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I just think that mmm let me make up a phrase that might be horribly inaccurate but I'm not used to speaking outside of American political camps, worldwide political conservatives? Or political hawks? Like to press people to come down with simple calls of good and evil, right and wrong, good and bad, friend and foe. When the world is often a lot more nuanced than that. Iran, for instance, offered the exact sort of assistance in Afghanistan and vs. terrorist camps that Pakistan, our "friend", has consistently failed to give since the very beginning. Good guy? Bad guy? Saudi Arabia? Good or bad? You could make arguments for either one.

Don't wanna see Russia steamrolling over people, no. But I don't think we're in a position of tremendous credibility to condemn them for it internationally, without exposing ourselves as completely and utterly hypocritical and self-serving. And over Georgia. Nope, I'm not willing to serve in a draft to fight for Georgia. Are you? Is your country? I know I'm not, and I can only speak for me. But I say if hawks are getting so much wood to fight Russia over Georgia, go volunteer for Georgia's armed forces. I'm not saying that to be glib, I mean it. This is all just talk talk talk around a message board but it's imitating real political life of people trying to recreate power blocs around which to boogeyman and scare us all back into the 80's again. I'm kinda happy to be through with 80's music, aren't the rest of you? :)

America shouldn't be in NATO to begin with. Beyond that Georgia offers nothing other than antagonizment on the bear. If they want there old soviet republics back let them have them. I dont care how many times those nomads and mountains change hands and Im sure the nomads and mountains feel the same way. Let the Russians waste treasure and money fighting pointless wars. Let them run around in a nationalistic fervor. If people are so insistent on projecting Americas power and influence we should do something more constructive. I have no desire to be put smack dab in the middle of a Russian power struggle.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

America shouldn't be in NATO to begin with. Beyond that Georgia offers nothing other than antagonizment on the bear. If they want there old soviet republics back let them have them. I dont care how many times those nomads and mountains change hands and Im sure the nomads and mountains feel the same way. Let the Russians waste treasure and money fighting pointless wars. Let them run around in a nationalistic fervor. If people are so insistent on projecting Americas power and influence we should do something more constructive. I have no desire to be put smack dab in the middle of a Russian power struggle.

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Best contribution in this thread so far....

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

America shouldn't be in NATO to begin with. Beyond that Georgia offers nothing other than antagonizment on the bear. If they want there old soviet republics back let them have them. I dont care how many times those nomads and mountains change hands and Im sure the nomads and mountains feel the same way. Let the Russians waste treasure and money fighting pointless wars. Let them run around in a nationalistic fervor. If people are so insistent on projecting Americas power and influence we should do something more constructive. I have no desire to be put smack dab in the middle of a Russian power struggle.

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Yup, thank you. I agree and well said.

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Originally Posted by Tristuskhan

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South
America shouldn't be in NATO to begin with.

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Best contribution in this thread so far....

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If not the best, at least the most amusing. We all do realize that the US created NATO, to counter the perceived and applied Russian military thread against post WWII Western Europe???



CmacQ

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Originally Posted by cmacq

If not the best, at least the most amusing. We all do realize that the US created NATO?



CmacQ

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Im well aware of that and thats the reason I cry before I go to bed at night.

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Originally Posted by cmacq

We all do realize that the US created NATO?

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Yes we do, and that's the reason why the US should cease participating this pointless alliance.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Im well aware of that and thats the reason I cry before I go to bed at night.

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Try getting out more often. Or as I said above, you all should really quit giving it away for free, and get yourselves on the pay roll.


CmacQ

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Originally Posted by cmacq

Try getting out more often.

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That wont pull the US out of NATO

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

That wont pull the US out of NATO

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Well, I guess this freelancing stuff, has really got to burn? Good Luck with that.


CmacQ

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Originally Posted by cmacq

Well, I guess this freelancing stuff, has to really got to burn? Good Luck with that.


CmacQ

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I was bantering up until this point then I lost you.

The more I think about it the more it kind of annoys me. What's with all the European posters who think that the U.S. should use its military and treasury to protect the democracy of some small third rate microcountry? Is Europe completely impotent? Seriously, we in the U.S. have our own issues right now. It makes me steam a little bit how quickly people are eager to volunteer us to war efforts.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

The more I think about it the more it kind of annoys me. What's with all the European posters who think that the U.S. should use its military and treasury to protect the democracy of some small third rate microcountry? Is Europe completely impotent? Seriously, we in the U.S. have our own issues right now. It makes me steam a little bit how quickly people are eager to volunteer us to war efforts.

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The problem is Georgia is not exactly democratic: the 2003 (?) movement replaced an authoritarian regime by another. If Georgia is a true democracy, then Russia is so: same state control on the press, same rights for political opposition.

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Originally Posted by Tristuskhan

The problem is Georgia is not exactly democratic: the 2003 (?) movement replaced an authoritarian regime by another. If Georgia is a true democracy, then Russia is so: same state control on the press, same rights for political opposition.

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I feel exactly the same way as you, but people had argued earlier that democracy was worth defending, ideologically. I agree, ideologically. But I don't want to attack Russia over Georgia just the same that I'm glad Russia didn't attack us over Iraq, frankly.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

The more I think about it the more it kind of annoys me. What's with all the European posters who think that the U.S. should use its military and treasury to protect the democracy of some small third rate microcountry? Is Europe completely impotent? Seriously, we in the U.S. have our own issues right now. It makes me steam a little bit how quickly people are eager to volunteer us to war efforts.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

I feel exactly the same way as you, but people had argued earlier that democracy was worth defending, ideologically. I agree, ideologically. But I don't want to attack Russia over Georgia just the same that I'm glad Russia didn't attack us over Iraq, frankly.

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The issue there being that the US shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place... but that's beside the point.

As I've said NATO is about mutual defence. The US shouldn't be attacking anyone. Diplomatic pressure is much more in keeping with pacifist goals. But the fact remains that while big countries(like the US and Russia) shouldn't be meddling in smaller, weaker countries' affairs, they do, as we have witness with the American invasion of Iraq, and the Russia invasion of South Ossetia.

Just to point out that I'm not advocating war.

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Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio

The issue there being that the US shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place... but that's beside the point.

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I wholeheartedly agree. What I'm saying is, I'm glad a global thermonuclear exchange wasn't initiated over it. Aren't you? Or would you say it was worth it because it was in defense of Iraq's sovereignty and self-determination?

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As I've said NATO is about mutual defence. The US shouldn't be attacking anyone. Diplomatic pressure is much more in keeping with pacifist goals. But the fact remains that while big countries(like the US and Russia) shouldn't be meddling in smaller, weaker countries' affairs, they do, as we have witness with the American invasion of Iraq, and the Russia invasion of South Ossetia.

Just to point out that I'm not advocating war.

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Well if we're talking about diplomatic pressure, then of course I agree. I do not think that was the vein of where the discussion was, though. Expediting Georgia into NATO membership OR reacting to Russia as if it had attacked a NATO member when Georgia is not one yet, both seem to be paths leading to war as far as I can see.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Without a doubt. I want them to shore up support in central Asia at the expense of China and India from NATO's point of view. This is what they seem to be doing naturally without much resistance anyway. I'm interested in creating a balancing act of power with NATO left, right, and center.

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Uhuh, you realise that the U.S pretty much lost central Asia to an alliance of Beijing and Moscow? Perhaps you ant to read about what happened to all thos basing agreements you used to have.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Uhuh, you realise that the U.S pretty much lost central Asia to an alliance of Beijing and Moscow? Perhaps you ant to read about what happened to all thos basing agreements you used to have.

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I am well aware of this. That is why it is of the utmost importance that we offer Russia a more promising and secure alternative before it is too late and the SCO becomes more than a loose agreement between bordering states.

I see the SCO as an unnatural co-op. Those nations have the most to fear from one another. They are the most ethnically diverse, the most naturally competitive and drastically different geographically. I see Russia being over-run by the Chinese in 20 years if it doesn't solidify it's ties with the West ASAP.

What do I know? Fundamentally different totalitarian regimes have nothing to fear from one another if you look back historically... I forgot that we are living at the end of history.

@ Koga No Goshi: No I'm glad that we haven't been absorbed by a gigantic nuclear war.

With Georgia I was theorising that Russia could be persuaded to withdraw, perhaps thats my ridiculous idealism coming through.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Expediting Georgia into NATO membership OR reacting to Russia as if it had attacked a NATO member when Georgia is not one yet, both seem to be paths leading to war as far as I can see.

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And unfortunately atm you seem to be right.