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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
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Originally Posted by
Crazed Rabbit
Holy cow, the one where the cop turns off the camera when dealing with a drunken woman in custody is astonishing- I think it's around the 7 minute mark. Clearly getting angry, he walks over to the camera and turns it off. When it's turned back on her hair and clothes are in total disarray and she's laying on the floor in a pool of blood. He explains that she slipped. :no:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
The biggest problem with an authority figure abusing his granted power is the eventual breakdown of respect for the rule of law.
Just look at the lack of respect shown law enforcement in general in this thread, comprised of posters from all over america, europe and australia.
THAT is why "assault under color of law" is assault of the worst kind, and is rightfully sanctioned severely in viable republics/democracies.
You're always going to have a few bad eggs, no matter how how hard you try to screen them out. I think everyone understands that. The problem is when the "good" cops keep their mouths shut or, even worse, try to cover up for them out of some misplaced sense of brotherhood.
It would be a lot better if the bad cops were singled out and reported by their peers. But instead, it seems like their culture makes it so that its the one who blows the whistle on their abuse of power who is ostracized and punished.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xiahou
You're always going to have a few bad eggs, no matter how how hard you try to screen them out. I think everyone understands that. The problem is when the "good" cops keep their mouths shut or, even worse, try to cover up for them out of some misplaced sense of brotherhood.
My personal perception is that the number of "bad eggs" is far greater than others would state it is. All my life I've hated cops, given my interactions with them, even when I wasn't a bit of a troublemaker in my teens (note that I have never been arrested or even handcuffed in my entire life). There are a few that teach at my Kung Fu school, as I've got to know them they do seem more human and one can see their side of the fence a bit better, but my general dislike remains. This thread hasn't helped of course.
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It would be a lot better if the bad cops were singled out and reported by their peers. But instead, it seems like their culture makes it so that its the one who blows the whistle on their abuse of power who is ostracized and punished.
"Don't snitch." Not only that, but the upper echelons of police structures will generally do whatever it takes to back up their subordinates, even when they are clearly in the wrong and way out of bounds. Again this is what I maintain perpetuates and if anything is strengthening the "I don't like cops" attitude that in my view is becoming much more prevalant through the US.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Here's another recent one:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...,1616907.story
Watch the video.
Quote:
Sunrise man cleared after elevator video shows he did not batter Fort Lauderdale officers
Sunrise man had been accused of attacking officers
By Tonya Alanez | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
March 5, 2009
After a beat down in an elevator, Joshua Daniel Ortiz ended up with his nose broken and facing a charge of battering a Fort Lauderdale Is your Fort Lauderdale restaurant clean? - Click Here. police officer.
The 22-year-old Sunrise man was surprised and delighted to learn Wednesday that Broward prosecutors were dropping the case against him after reviewing an elevator surveillance video showing three officers aggressively rush and beat Ortiz to the ground.
Once the Dec. 5 video surfaced, it altered the course of the case. It contradicted police reports that Ortiz provoked and attacked Officers Derek Lade, Stefan Silver and Steve Smith.
"They were just sitting there watching my life go down the drain with those charges," Ortiz said Wednesday. "I've been going crazy thinking my life is over. It's barely started and it's over."
The looming legal charges delayed Ortiz's enrollment in college classes, he said.
Police first charged Ortiz with felony battery on a law enforcement officer.
But after seeing the video obtained by Ortiz's defense attorney, Stephen Melnick, prosecutors downgraded the charge to a misdemeanor resisting charge. Upon further review, prosecutors dropped the case entirely.
Once again, we have the cops attacking an innocent man, because they are cowards and bullies.
Once again, we have them charging the assault victim with a crime and lying about what he did.
And for the latest ************* time in a row, we have the cops getting away without any punishment!
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Fort Lauderdale police internal affairs investigators reviewed the incident more than a month ago and found no violations of policy or procedures, said Sgt. Frank Sousa, the department's spokesman.
"It was not a beating," Sousa said. "The video clearly shows that [Ortiz] made a movement toward the officer.
Not a beating? He got his nose broke, because he approached an officer with his hands down? What kind of planet are these guys on? What kind of country do they think they live in? The thing that gets me most is that they know exactly.
They attacked him and tried to destroy his whole life with false charges. They wanted to destroy his life to cover their bullying, arrogant actions.
And they receive no punishment!
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -
-- Thomas Jefferson
CR
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Hands down CR? He had them in his pockets, that's even worse.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Remember how cops often shoot-on-sight any dogs they come across that do not immediately run away? If they come to your house and your dog barks or bounds out to meet them or even is chained up it's likely to get killed and the cop receive no punishment.
But should a police dog die of natural causes, they'll give it a grand funeral. The double standard is disgusting, and symbolic of what is wrong with the police.
CR
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Okay, so the general sentiment of many posters is that far too many police are abusive and/or actively counterproductive.
What is to be done?
Do we dispense with police forces and rely on local committees of vigilance?
Do we dispense with police forces and leave law enforcement up to the citizens themselves?
Do we disarm police?
In other words, please shift from "what's wrong" to "what's to be done."
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
From a conservative point of view, nothing would be done as that would be progressive and only lefties are progressive. ~;)
Well, as for my POV, I think the police force should undergo some changes, a bit less brotherhood, training with an emphasis on helping people, not shooting people. Maybe a different motto and perhaps reliable checks and balances that are not police officers themselves.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Much of police work requires the guy to be a mostly independent operator, making judgments on behalf of the government/people, and taking what he thinks is appropriate action.
I wouldn't take that away. Instead: tech-up. I'd find better ways to monitor our public guardians, for review by their non-uniformed authorities. Individual policeman-mounted minicams/sound recorders, gps trackers, portable, easily-accessable criminal databases and law libraries for his reference. That kinda stuff.
When a bad one shows up, or a good one has a really bad day, the record will show his mistakes, as well as any aggrevating circumstances.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
The problem, as I see it, is that police are not accountable.
So we need to make them accountable. There has to be real punishment when they screw up.
Immunity for their actions must be removed, so they can be sued individually, and we can let a jury decide if what they did was right. This is a very important part. Right now the punishment is decided by their brothers-in-arms - we need an independent review and application of the same laws to police that they would face if they were civilians.
If a cop comes to your house without a warrant and shoots your dog, he must receive the same punishment as anybody else.
They must face real punishment - civilian review boards with access to absolutely all files in a case, with the power to suspend and fire officers.
All laws against surveillance of the police must be overturned immediately.
Their files on their activities must be completely public - reports of all raids carried out and the individual result of each raid.
It must be a felony for a police officer to lie on a report. Those who lie to cover up crimes or implicate the innocent must face especially serious charges.
In short, we must completely tear asunder the blue code of silence and leave cops open to all normal avenues of punishment in our legal system.
This is just off the top of my head.
CR
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
Okay, so the general sentiment of many posters is that far too many police are abusive and/or actively counterproductive.
What is to be done?
Do we dispense with police forces and rely on local committees of vigilance?
Do we dispense with police forces and leave law enforcement up to the citizens themselves?
Do we disarm police?
In other words, please shift from "what's wrong" to "what's to be done."
What's wrong is more fun and interesting.
There's nothing that can be done until the Blue Code of Gay Silence is broken and shattered by some cops with both morals and testicles. A similar mentality exists in the military and it's wrong there as well, even more wrong I'd say because the military is very forgiving of genuine mistakes made under stress.
What's funny is when you hear stuff like I can't speak out "I got a family to support." Hmmmm, that's the same line a lot of drug dealers, thiefs and robbers use. Funny indeed.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
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Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Hands down CR? He had them in his pockets, that's even worse.
You miss the point. In the article, the report from the officer who got assaulted said the kid "was in a fighting stance with fists raised"
So again, we have them lying. and yes, hands in pockets is bad, but its not like he had a chance to take them out. So in excusing the cops, the initial lie is overlooked completely because his hands were in his pockets perhaps. Oink
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
So, it's the lie, false report/witness thingee.
I agree. Either we (the citizenry) agree with the report, or we don't. If we don't, then the law-enforcer gets sanctioned. If we do, then...
tech up.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KukriKhan
Much of police work requires the guy to be a mostly independent operator, making judgments on behalf of the government/people, and taking what he thinks is appropriate action.
I wouldn't take that away. Instead: tech-up. I'd find better ways to monitor our public guardians, for review by their non-uniformed authorities. Individual policeman-mounted minicams/sound recorders, gps trackers, portable, easily-accessible criminal databases and law libraries for his reference. That kinda stuff.
When a bad one shows up, or a good one has a really bad day, the record will show his mistakes, as well as any aggravating circumstances.
I can't speak for other states or law enforcement entities but in the NYS Dept. of Corrections, State Police, Sheriffs this has been initiated and evolving for almost 20 years now.
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There's nothing that can be done until the Blue Code of Gay Silence is broken and shattered by some cops with both morals and testicles.
Easier said than done when one is trying to change/suppress/redirect human nature itself. And that applies to all strata of the Law Enforcement community, from the judges, commissioners, politicians, right down to the grunts in the trenches. Coverups don't just happen because management wants to protect the cop. Many would gladly sacrifice any grunt if they could do so and save/preserve their own liabilties. What needs to be done is to convince the cops who perform their jobs in good faith that they are safe from retailiation (from peers & management) and it is in their best interests for reporting those that don't act in good faith, and then actually follow through on that promise. Anyone who has ever worked in law enforcement will probably tell you that the "brotherhood" is a natural result of and quite indicative of a feeling of "us against the world"; criminals on one side and management/civilians on the other. There aren't too many Serpico's out there, and falling on your sword doesn't pay the bills or feeds your family. Figuring out how to change this culture takes time, money, and the political fortitude *from those just as flawed as the rest of us humans* to fix it. So, who gets to watch the watchers and judge the judgers?
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
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Originally Posted by
Hosakawa Tito
Anyone who has ever worked in law enforcement will probably tell you that the "brotherhood" is a natural result of and quite indicative of a feeling of "us against the world"; criminals on one side and management/civilians on the other. There aren't too many Serpico's out there, and falling on your sword doesn't pay the bills or feeds your family. Figuring out how to change this culture takes time, money, and the political fortitude *from those just as flawed as the rest of us humans* to fix it. So, who gets to watch the watchers and judge the judgers?
That brotherhood happens a lot in other government departments. Just watch what happens to whistle blowers. It also happens in any large organization (NGO's, Corporations etc), and more so where the organization is under pressure, understaffed (and has a hard time recruiting, as management will be loath to let go any head count), and has a lack of transparency and accountability.
One of the things that used to happen in the UK was that it wasn't local police that investigated police problems. It was police from another county. This doesn't address the code of silence. But it does remove one of the problems of mates having to investigate mates. It also removes management from the cycle where they may have vested interests in head count and empire building (having a bit of leverage on someone is excellent fodder for would be empire builders who delight in climbing the middle management ladder).
Make the system as a whole more transparent and accountable. Mind you this would mean that those in the upper echelons would have to be dealt with.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Excellent and succinct points about how the Uk investigates police crime. There is also another layer that you may not be aware of. The Police Complaints Authority.
In fact they may have even transcended them.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
You're right, Tito, it exists on all levels of government, and Pape is right that it exists everywhere else, too. Anyone who has ever worked in any level of management for a company in which they started at the bottom and worked their way up probably saw their old chums turn cold to him/her once the job title changed. And then the peers in management may do or say things about the workers that is equally superficial and cold. On top of that, you have intra-company rivalries.
Not to sound pessimistic, but I don't think it will ever be fixed. The "tech up" idea is probably the best one so far, but even that is going to have its workarounds and flaws because its administered by humans.
I don't know about this whole "all cops are evil" mantra being chanted by some. I try to maintain a friendly, professional relationship with my local police. I'm not scared of them, but I also don't trust them unless it's one that I know very personally which, incidentally, means I'm part of the problem because in essence I'm getting preferential treatment from cops I grew up with or hung out with before they were cops. I've tried to be friends with cops, both new relationships initiated by them and relationships where I have known the guy all my life. It only works out if we never, ever discuss politics or police work. Not that we fight or anything, but eventually something is always said by the cop that just makes me not want to be around him anymore, I guess because they consider me one of the boys, I dunno. I'm sure I've told some of these stories at the .org before.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
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Originally Posted by
Major Robert Dump
I try to maintain a friendly, professional relationship with my local police. I'm not scared of them, but I also don't trust them unless it's one that I know very personally which, incidentally, means I'm part of the problem because in essence I'm getting preferential treatment from cops I grew up with or hung out with before they were cops.
Indeed. It never ceases to amaze me how a local cop will let someone off for a traffic ticket if the person pulled over can name drop. I know many people who've done it. Things like that seem innocent enough, but preferential treatment is preferential treatment and it shouldn't happen in our justice system whether it's a speeding ticket, a DUI, or a serious crime.
I think "tech up" is a good starting point, but just having police watching each other isn't good enough. Police need to expect that everything they do while on duty is being watched and possibly taped by the public and they need to act with accordingly. Even though I think some of those cop watch groups can be obnoxious, I absolutely support what they're doing.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Britian has come up with a great way to see most crimes commited by police on urban streets.... i don't think it goes down to well with you lot having camera's everywhere though :tongue:
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
we can't use CCTV because it would make our electricity bills too high.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
A recent local case: Judge resigns, attorney pleads guilty in tampering case.
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“I would expect that, as a consequence of this plea, Ms. Adams may lose her license to practice law.”
Both the attorney & judge should lose their license to practice law, but this will be at the discretion of NYS Bar Association and State Politicians. The judge will get a mulligan and keep his law license, just like all the convicted & connected pols do like Spitzer, Hevesi, Crangle etal...
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Make the system as a whole more transparent and accountable. Mind you this would mean that those in the upper echelons would have to be dealt with.
And that's the rub, politics, power, and human nature are a corrosive corruptible combination. Upper echelon also pretty much means self-regulating....
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Just to chime in with some local corruption news of my own- you know it's got to be good when it makes it to the UK press.
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LIKE many other 15-year-old schoolgirls, Hillary Transue was not quite as respectful as she might have been towards the teachers at her Pennsylvania school. Yet she was a clever, computer-savvy pupil who had good grades and had never been in serious trouble.
One day, for a joke, she published a spoof article on the MySpace social networking website, mocking the assistant principal at her high school in Wilkes-Barre. The teacher complained and, to the astonishment of her family, Transue was charged with harassment and hauled into juvenile court.
That was where the family’s surprise turned to horror. After studying the case for two minutes, Judge Mark Ciavarella sentenced Transue to three months in juvenile detention. She was led out of the court in handcuffs.
Two years later it is Ciavarella’s turn to go to jail and Transue is among several hundred former inmates of local juvenile detention centres who are suing for compensation after one of America’s most sinister judicial scandals of recent times.
Basically, judges were sentencing children to juvenile detention in return for kickbacks from the detention center. This one seems like it keeps getting bigger and uglier by the day as the feds shine light on the dark underbelly of county government. :sweatdrop:
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InsaneApache
Excellent and succinct points about how the Uk investigates police crime. There is also another layer that you may not be aware of. The Police Complaints Authority.
In fact they may have even transcended them.
My uncle after being a super tanker captain became a policeman in Wales. And a cousin in the UK police force too. While my mum worked at Scotland Yard in the internal investigation unit as a secretary.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xiahou
Just to chime in with some local corruption news of my own- you know it's got to be good when it makes it to the
UK press.Basically, judges were sentencing children to juvenile detention in return for kickbacks from the detention center. This one seems like it keeps getting bigger and uglier by the day as the feds shine light on the dark underbelly of county government. :sweatdrop:
Not that much different than private prisons spending hundreds of millions lobbying and donating to lawmakers for strict marijuana laws.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
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That brotherhood happens a lot in other government departments. Just watch what happens to whistle blowers. It also happens in any large organization (NGO's, Corporations etc), and more so where the organization is under pressure, understaffed (and has a hard time recruiting, as management will be loath to let go any head count), and has a lack of transparency and accountability.
There is a stigma attached to being a whistle blower aka snitch, and it applies to all groups and work environments from school children on up. Some of it is justified because sometimes the whistle blower/snitch has their own not so virtuous agenda in mind. Even those with the best intentions are going to be reluctant or soon discover the fact of this stigma. It is most extreme in a prison setting. Among the inmate population snitches are despised more than baby rapers, and in any serious disturbance or riot the first ones the rioters go after are the snitches.
Among law enforcement & military grunts, snitches are also not socially acceptable and are considered a tool of the darker side of management. In my department our internal investigative unit is called IG, Inspector General. Most of the investigators are also ex corrections officers and are about as popular as a dose of the clap. Been that way long before my time, and probably will continue to be long after I'm gone.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Major Robert Dump
Not that much different than private prisons spending hundreds of millions lobbying and donating to lawmakers for strict marijuana laws.
I understand your point, but it's wildly different. The judges were sentencing children to detention for minor offenses, or non-offenses in exchange for kickbacks under the table.
Lobbying legislators is the legally recognized method for influencing the law. Bribing judges is not. :no:
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hosakawa Tito
There is a stigma attached to being a whistle blower aka snitch, and it applies to all groups and work environments from school children on up. Some of it is justified because sometimes the whistle blower/snitch has their own not so virtuous agenda in mind. Even those with the best intentions are going to be reluctant or soon discover the fact of this stigma. It is most extreme in a prison setting. Among the inmate population snitches are despised more than baby rapers, and in any serious disturbance or riot the first ones the rioters go after are the snitches.
Among law enforcement & military grunts, snitches are also not socially acceptable and are considered a tool of the darker side of management. In my department our internal investigative unit is called IG, Inspector General. Most of the investigators are also ex corrections officers and are about as popular as a dose of the clap. Been that way long before my time, and probably will continue to be long after I'm gone.
Unlike other groups, however, the police enforce the law. They deform the very justice system when they cover up for each other.
It's also near the third anniversary of a man killed for making small-time bets with friends:
Sal Culosi
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Sal Culosi was shot and killed by a Fairfax County cop three years ago last Saturday.
He was about to be arrested for taking football bets, the quarry of a dubious sting operation that seemed timed to make a news splash ahead of the upcoming Super Bowl. (Why dubious? Well, the only major bettor was an undercover police officer, and the alleged bookie, Culosi, covered all the bets himself.)
Culosi had no criminal record and owned and operated an optometry practice. He was unarmed, not fully dressed, and standing in front of his house in Fair Lakes when a bullet from a SWAT team member’s pistol went through his heart.
County officials say the killing was an accident, and that Officer Deval Bullock unintentionally fired the .45-caliber kill shot. According to the county’s version of events, a car door grazed Bullock’s arm and caused his trigger finger to twitch.
No criminal charges were ever filed against Culosi’s killer. Veteran prosecutor Robert Horan, in explaining shortly after the shooting why he wouldn’t pursue an indictment against the officer, said Bullock was tired from working an organized deer hunt in the morning before he killed Culosi.
Why call out a SWAT team? So they can play dress up and pretend they're like real soldiers? Getting away with murder. :shame:
Also, this article by the former Police Chief of Seattle helps explain why brutality occurs:
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Disclosure: During my rookie days back in the sixties as a San Diego police officer I used excessive force, more than once. I remember most of the incidents, though I'm sure I've conveniently forgotten some. I'm ashamed, wish to hell I hadn't done it. But I did, and visceral memories of these incidents help shape an answer to the question of why certain cops engage in brutal behavior, and others don't.
...
So, how do we prevent this kind of behavior in the future?
Please don't say through (1) more thorough screening of law enforcement candidates, or (2) better training. They're both important, of course. Critical, in fact. But law enforcement, for the most part, doesn't pick bad apples. It makes them, and not through academy training.
Forty-three years ago I was an idealistic, vaguely liberal 21-year-old when the San Diego Police Department hired me. The last thing on my mind was taking to the streets to punish people. And lest there be any doubt about the department's policy, the police academy, even then, drove it home: excessive force was grounds for termination.
So, why did I abuse the very people I'd been hired to serve?
Not to get too psychological, I did it because the power of my position went straight to my head; because other cops I'd come to admire did it; and because I thought I could get away with it. Which I did--until a principled prosecutor slapped me upside the head and demanded to know whether the U.S. Constitution meant anything to me.
It comes down to this: real cops, those with a conscience, those who honor the law, must step up and take control of the cop culture.
Some others here have mentioned upgrading technology, which I also think is good. Ideally, cops would be on tape whenever they are working.
CR
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Several folks have mentioned increased surveillance through technical means of law enforcement. I couldn't agree more with this, nothing makes people thing things through more carefully than realizing they are being recorded.
However.........
I think the bigger problem by far is that even WHEN things ARE recorded, such as the numerous posts in this thread of law enforcement being generally out of control for no real reason, nothing has happened to majority of the individuals involved, barring an occasional "paid leave".
The bottom line is that this kind of crap isn't going to stop unless the behavior is cut off at the knees. Just like little children, they learn what they can and can't get away with, and will cheerfully do whatever they know they shouldn't because they know there will be no repercussions.
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Whacker
I think the bigger problem by far is that even WHEN things ARE recorded, such as the numerous posts in this thread of law enforcement being generally out of control for no real reason, nothing has happened to majority of the individuals involved, barring an occasional "paid leave".
The bottom line is that this kind of crap isn't going to stop unless the behavior is cut off at the knees. Just like little children, they learn what they can and can't get away with, and will cheerfully do whatever they know they shouldn't because they know there will be no repercussions.
Indeed.
Anyway, here's a video that proves a Chicago Cop arrested a sober man and lied about what happened on his report:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1...ideo11.article
Apparently they are 'considering' filing charges against the cop.
CR
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
In all fairness though, don't the cops deserve the benfit of the doubt in some cases?
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Re: Two adults beat up a teenager
We can't give the benefit of the doubt to a group of people who have and will continue to lie to protect themselves and their compatriots. They only tell the truth when it is convenient for them.
They have squandered and abused the benefit the public has given them, and as such do not deserve it.
CR
